[Suggestion] Dungeons are dead - idea for reviving dungeons again.

[yukhe.6452]

It's not a secret, dungeons are dead for more than a year now.

New players don't experience the glory of dungeons like we did back in 2013-2015 where we could run any dungeon anytime, get exotic gear out of them and have a bit more diversity in the game.

Today it's almost impossible to find a dungeon group other than AC, and don't even think of trying doing ARAH if it's not on the daily quest list.

this situation blocks many new players from finishing the Zaithan personal story because you need to run Arah story to finish it.

 

I have an idea that could revive dungeons again and bring more traffic to dungeon groups,

The gold reward for dungeons changed from 2g and 1.5g for every path to 75s last year and at that time the traffic on dungeons died out (raids added to that effect).

What if Anet would increase the amount of gold rewarded for each dungeon?

I can see how the traffic would go back up because it would be a good way to get some gold on a daily basis, increasing the number of people running dungeons and help the new players run dungeons too.

 

What do you think? is it a good idea? it is possible that someone in Anet would actually do this?

 

[Oglaf.1074]

There is a solution to this so simple I cannot believe Anet hasn't thought of it yet:

 

**Add a new Ascended tier of rewards to dungeons.**

 

Same skins as the existing Exotic weapons and armour and at an approriately higher cost of tokens to account for their increase in power.

[Shirlias.8104]

Due to new traits and skills dungeons and old fractals tend to be pretty easy now.

 

Like LS1, who was there had the possibility of try some hard dungeon path, but now it's simply faceroll with not so good rewards ( i do cof p1 just for tokens when i need to sell an Incinerator ).

 

Incrasing the rewards could bring more players to considerate a dungeon run, yeah... but just this.

Dungeons should be imho reworked into fractals ( or at least with a fractal system in terms of rewards ).

[Shoyoko.7309]

I would gladly go back to dungeons if the rewards were upgraded such as more gold or ascended gear.

Dungeons are great and there are so many paths to choose from, if they were able to increase the difficulty to be in line with T4 fractals- they would come back as entertaining pve endgame content.

[Offair.2563]

Maybe add dungeon specific collections achievements.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @Offair.2563 said:

> Maybe add dungeon specific collections achievements.

 

Dungeon armour and weapons. Easier to gather through pvp. Ant kind of achievement or collection would be a short term fix for the problem. Once done dungeons will die again. At the moment toy get 5 gold for 5 dungeons. And maybe that's the problem. Maybe they should add more special loot to the dungeon vendors to make people want to collect the tokens

[GrubySzymek.1362]

I don't know. I've found recently multiple groups for popular paths. I don't argue that some less interesting ones are harder to play but it's still possible to find people eventually.

 

Dungeons are dead in terms of developement since Aetherpath. It was their last try to make this mode a thing. Tech is old, code is old and broken. They simply don't want to touch them.

 

This doesn't change the fact that imo they should make new dungeons. Old stuff, whatever. But why not making new dungeons? If you can make hardcore content for minorities (like raids or fractal CMs) why not 1-2 dungeons per expansion? They have new tech for raids which are just dungeons on steroids. Just make some oldschool 5 man medium difficulty ones, easily puggable.

 

"But fractals offer what dungeons did". No, they don't. Dungeons are part of the main world and part of the lore. Fractals are disconnected from the rest of the game, they have their own lore and no impact or context for main events.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

I don't know why this is so hard and people keep posting a topic in the wrong subsection. Revenant discussion in general discussion, dungeon discussion in general discussion. There is a dedicated dungeon/fractals/raid subforum. Post it there.

[extremexhero.9178]

I think that Dungeons server their purpose of filling in details with Destiney's Edge breakup and giving players who are not lvl 80 decent experience. No need to revamp or add more, just focus on fractals which are a lot more fun because they aren't as long and yet still intense.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

I still don't get why they won't introduce new dungeons. Fractals is okay, but they are tied to the annoying AR system and also separate from the actual story. Dungeons are in most MMOs a normal asset and I hardly see 5-10 new fractals every two years. Compared to most competitors the output of group content in GW2 is ridiculously low. In fact there was not a single group content in the PoF expansion which was advertised as 'content filled expansion'. Er... What!?!?!

[Teofa Tsavo.9863]

One point.. The Arah path in the personal story has been a Solo dungeon for a very long time.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @extremexhero.9178 said:

> I think that Dungeons server their purpose of filling in details with Destiney's Edge breakup and giving players who are not lvl 80 decent experience. No need to revamp or add more, just focus on fractals which are a lot more fun because they aren't as long and yet still intense.

 

revamp 25 dungeons = add 25 fractals, except thats a waste of 25 dungeons isnt it and the former would be a lot cheaper to develop and offer something that doesnt require agony resistance. Choice is good.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @ProtoGunner.4953 said:

> I still don't get why they won't introduce new dungeons. Fractals is okay, but they are tied to the annoying AR system and also separate from the actual story. Dungeons are in most MMOs a normal asset and I hardly see 5-10 new fractals every two years. Compared to most competitors the output of group content in GW2 is ridiculously low. In fact there was not a single group content in the PoF expansion which was advertised as 'content filled expansion'. Er... What!?!?!

 

GW2 doesn't follow a typical MMO format, and as a result, our reward system constantly run into problems whenever they mimic those. The problem is most MMOs use Dungeons are a grind gate mechanism, which is exactly what Raids were trying to accomplish in HOT. The only way to make that work is to give extremely valuable rewards, complimented by cheap, repeatable rewards to justify running them on a constant basis. Dungeons are very story centered, which makes them fun the first time through, but irritating after a few repeats. This is extremely evident in the Speed clear meta that popped up in the early years; as people focused only paths that could be done quickly, and with low chance for a wipe. The only reason they did this was the Gold output, and the ability to convert tokens into gold via Mystic Toilet. When they nerfed gold rewards, it no longer became an efficient use of time or effort, which is why the speed runners disappeared. The tokens are still valuable for flipping Legendary weapons, but the daily token limits is what caused more casual runners to stop going.

 

Fractals were supposed to resolve this problem by being short, easily scalable mini adventures, whose short length addresses both the speed running problem, as well as reduce frustration with PUGs through clearer mechanics. The ability to churn them out faster, and without having to affect maps to accommodate them, was also bonus. To address the rewards problem, Fractals introduced a gear treadmill for people who keep insisting on gear treadmills..... IE: Raiders from other games who wanted something to bang their heads against for weeks on end. However.... while the fractals themselves were successful as a concept, the reward system and Ascended armor ended up back firing in a major way. The armor crafting decimated entire sections of the TP, and the rewards from fractals (while high) were not enough to account for the cost being sunk into gearing for higher tiers. This disparity in perceived value is eventually what lead to stat bonus increase on Asc gear, and the roll system was being abused to look for easy to run fractals...... and thus, the Speed run meta found its way into Fractals.

 

Skipping the interim changes, the current reward system for Fractals is, by a significant margin, the highest gold output thanks to the Daily achievements and the Fractal encryptions. The series of changes that lead to this is all part of an attempt to habituate players into daily logins, as the fractals were not meant to be done at this high a sustained frequency. But as players hit the old fractal level cap, they demanded higher levels to grind out, and increases in rewards to reflect their time investment. It was designed to be a vertical system, with all the crafting cost and time gates there to extend its life cycle. But that vertical system has a hard limit; and its extremely difficult to change that without the solution coming off, if not outright being contrived and tacked on.

 

Which brings us to the problem of Raids. Raiders are the single most self entitled group currently in the game....... more then WvW, more the PvP. They consider themselves above the rest of the player base, and this is validated by the existence of exclusive rewards that cater only to them. And thus, Legendary armor came into being. Designed around the inevitability of Speed clearing, much of the raid mechanics are meant to promote efficient use of team roles, with multiple strategies in the build craft to defeat the demands of a raid encounter. But just like Dungeons and Raids in every other MMO, which are also designed to accommodate speed clearing, players stubbornly locked themselves into an Efficiency meta that readily excludes all but the highest performing team compositions. Typically meta comps are a house of cards/carry frame work, modeled on the holy trinity, where the failure of one results in the failure of all. GW2 actually built a lot of leeway into this system; but its not respected by the player base, as very readily exclude deviations from a known composition. When the meta is ignored, the raids are incredibly fun to participate in.... just not guaranteed to succeed. But because the Speed clearing meta tolerates nothing less then the best they can find, it eventually devolved into a pool of toxicity in the PUG sector, and a xenophobic collective of gated communities in the organized sector. Both have little tolerance for even lack luster performance, while exhaustion and apathy has made people less willing to invest the effort to boot strap a new player to train them up into a sufficient performance band. My guild runs training raids on a weekly basis; and over time there has been a very noticeable decrease in enthusiasm and patience for hosting them, and much lower emotional tolerance for mistakes on "easy mechanics" that undoubtedly wipes the group during a practice session. And despite the discipline thats kept this event a regular thing, you can tell they are getting fatigued by the effort/time investment, as they've done the sections so many times, they can practically beat it on mental auto pilot. This is the natural progression... success is dictated by the type of people you find; but over time, what you find is malice at worst, apathy at best, toward outsiders trying to get in. Its only when unusual talent presents itself, that this attitude changes..... to one of possible exploitation, and how it can make their's, and other people's lives inside the group, easier.

 

 

All this having been brought up, and we've barely scratched the surface of as to why your statement is ignorant to how vicious a cycle it is, even while you're in the process of describing it. And I'm hoping I don't have to sit down and explain why content churn is so high in other games, or how any amount (no matter how numerous) is ever enough to satisfy the insatiable, gluttonous swarm of locust-esqe madness that is the "End Game" oriented players. One "End game" is never enough for them.... they need two, three, four..... just countless "ends" to reach; only to demand more "ends" be added, because they lack "motivation" otherwise. And even that, as impossible as it is, is not enough still. No, it also have to come with ever more extravagant, greater, more validating rewards for conquest of this new thing. After all, this new content is supposed to be more harder then the old hard content, thus we need to be more compensated for it. Really, the only thing that spares this game from the further insanity of accretion is there being no level cap increase, or vertical scaling requirements like the fractals did. So for what its worth, you're equally hosed no matter which raid wing you start on first, as is the second, third, and so on.

 

So when its all said and done, we have this problem where the Hamster wheel of the reward loop becomes the only thing can even remotely keep pace with the insane demands of players for "rewarding activities" that can no longer pay in "an interesting experience".

[Kirin.7306]

Maybe its proof that people only do such content when the rewards are insane. if anything I think they need mor eopen world content to keep the feeling of an MMO.

[Lunarlife.5128]

Fractals honestly feel like dungeons and are a really cool way of doing it.

I also feel like there's better things for Anet to focus on right now but that dungeons should be on their to-do list!

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Kirin.7306 said:

> Maybe its proof that people only do such content when the rewards are insane. if anything I think they need mor eopen world content to keep the feeling of an MMO.

 

you need both really. I want to play in groups in dungeons and I want to play open world. In both they are content where i get to enjoy my build, get some rewards and get a bit of progress. What screws it up is people who ONLY play for rewards, because ultimately a number next to a little montory icon is not fun gameplay so they will never be satisfied.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

We need NEW difficult dungeons. Not rehashing 5y old crap that we were all playing in 2012 while leveling up our mains............................

 

I will never understand why they're so stubbord on adding new dungeons. Ruins the whole pve aspect of the game for me.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> We need NEW difficult dungeons. Not rehashing 5y old crap that we were all playing in 2012 while leveling up our mains............................

>

> I will never understand why they're so stubbord on adding new dungeons. Ruins the whole pve aspect of the game for me.

 

Dungeons are clearly expensive to develop, you can see this in every mmorpg. GW2 however has a huge backlog of dungeons that could be refreshed because that have not been destroyed by power creep that you see in other games.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > We need NEW difficult dungeons. Not rehashing 5y old crap that we were all playing in 2012 while leveling up our mains............................

> >

> > I will never understand why they're so stubbord on adding new dungeons. Ruins the whole pve aspect of the game for me.

>

> Dungeons are clearly expensive to develop, you can see this in every mmorpg. GW2 however has a huge backlog of dungeons that could be refreshed because that have not been destroyed by power creep that you see in other games.

 

i don't see why a dungeon is expensive to develope. The last gw1 expansion had like 6+ dungeons... Not to mention that i'm paying money for the new expansions so am i supposed to pay $55CAD for a new expansion and accept receiving not a single dungeon because its too expensive to develope the most repeatable pve content in every mmo? I don't think so.

 

If they rehash old dungeons, that would be just that, rehashing. I want new, challenging fresh dungeons, not what i played to death 5y ago.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > We need NEW difficult dungeons. Not rehashing 5y old crap that we were all playing in 2012 while leveling up our mains............................

> > >

> > > I will never understand why they're so stubbord on adding new dungeons. Ruins the whole pve aspect of the game for me.

> >

> > Dungeons are clearly expensive to develop, you can see this in every mmorpg. GW2 however has a huge backlog of dungeons that could be refreshed because that have not been destroyed by power creep that you see in other games.

>

> i don't see why a dungeon is expensive to develope. The last gw1 expansion had like 6+ dungeons... Not to mention that i'm paying money for the new expansions so am i supposed to pay $55CAD for a new expansion and accept receiving not a single dungeon because its too expensive to develope the most repeatable pve content in every mmo? I don't think so.

>

> If they rehash old dungeons, that would be just that, rehashing. I want new, challenging fresh dungeons, not what i played to death 5y ago.

 

So why do you think they dont make dungeons if they are so easy to make?

[Pandonation.7201]

Definitely support this!

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > > We need NEW difficult dungeons. Not rehashing 5y old crap that we were all playing in 2012 while leveling up our mains............................

> > > >

> > > > I will never understand why they're so stubbord on adding new dungeons. Ruins the whole pve aspect of the game for me.

> > >

> > > Dungeons are clearly expensive to develop, you can see this in every mmorpg. GW2 however has a huge backlog of dungeons that could be refreshed because that have not been destroyed by power creep that you see in other games.

> >

> > i don't see why a dungeon is expensive to develope. The last gw1 expansion had like 6+ dungeons... Not to mention that i'm paying money for the new expansions so am i supposed to pay $55CAD for a new expansion and accept receiving not a single dungeon because its too expensive to develope the most repeatable pve content in every mmo? I don't think so.

> >

> > If they rehash old dungeons, that would be just that, rehashing. I want new, challenging fresh dungeons, not what i played to death 5y ago.

>

> So why do you think they dont make dungeons if they are so easy to make?

 

PR. Dungeons have bad reputation in GW2 so instead of using this model they just develop fractals and raids. It's mostly the same but they most likely won't to avoid bad vibes if they continued with dungeon model.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Kirin.7306 said:

> Maybe its proof that people only do such content when the rewards are insane. if anything I think they need mor eopen world content to keep the feeling of an MMO.

 

It's not that easy. People want to play rewarding content only because of heavy gemstore oriented reward model. Basically GW2 is "play for gold and buy rewards on TP".

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > > > We need NEW difficult dungeons. Not rehashing 5y old crap that we were all playing in 2012 while leveling up our mains............................

> > > > >

> > > > > I will never understand why they're so stubbord on adding new dungeons. Ruins the whole pve aspect of the game for me.

> > > >

> > > > Dungeons are clearly expensive to develop, you can see this in every mmorpg. GW2 however has a huge backlog of dungeons that could be refreshed because that have not been destroyed by power creep that you see in other games.

> > >

> > > i don't see why a dungeon is expensive to develope. The last gw1 expansion had like 6+ dungeons... Not to mention that i'm paying money for the new expansions so am i supposed to pay $55CAD for a new expansion and accept receiving not a single dungeon because its too expensive to develope the most repeatable pve content in every mmo? I don't think so.

> > >

> > > If they rehash old dungeons, that would be just that, rehashing. I want new, challenging fresh dungeons, not what i played to death 5y ago.

> >

> > So why do you think they dont make dungeons if they are so easy to make?

>

> PR. Dungeons have bad reputation in GW2 so instead of using this model they just develop fractals and raids. It's mostly the same but they most likely won't to avoid bad vibes if they continued with dungeon model.

 

Yoy dont design based on vibes, you design based on cost v benefit where benefit is driven by customer approval and demand. Either the demand is low or the cost is high.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > > > > We need NEW difficult dungeons. Not rehashing 5y old crap that we were all playing in 2012 while leveling up our mains............................

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I will never understand why they're so stubbord on adding new dungeons. Ruins the whole pve aspect of the game for me.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dungeons are clearly expensive to develop, you can see this in every mmorpg. GW2 however has a huge backlog of dungeons that could be refreshed because that have not been destroyed by power creep that you see in other games.

> > > >

> > > > i don't see why a dungeon is expensive to develope. The last gw1 expansion had like 6+ dungeons... Not to mention that i'm paying money for the new expansions so am i supposed to pay $55CAD for a new expansion and accept receiving not a single dungeon because its too expensive to develope the most repeatable pve content in every mmo? I don't think so.

> > > >

> > > > If they rehash old dungeons, that would be just that, rehashing. I want new, challenging fresh dungeons, not what i played to death 5y ago.

> > >

> > > So why do you think they dont make dungeons if they are so easy to make?

> >

> > PR. Dungeons have bad reputation in GW2 so instead of using this model they just develop fractals and raids. It's mostly the same but they most likely won't to avoid bad vibes if they continued with dungeon model.

>

> Yoy dont design based on vibes, you design based on cost v benefit where benefit is driven by customer approval and demand. Either the demand is low or the cost is high.

 

They already have the tech to make new dugeons. But instead they made it into raids because of bad dungeon PR.