The issues with balance

[Ithilwen.1529]

The 8 class core game was never completely balanced out before the introduction of HoT. With the subsequent PoF, we're looking at 26 separate classes.

 

It's no wonder that balance hasn't gone well.

 

When a person or team is overwhelmed, it's not uncommon for them to stop being effective. One of the artifices to address this has been to share out any trait or skill that is outstanding. That might or might not be effective. I think it reduces the richness and quality of the game.

 

As things stand, I see the classes becoming more and more alike for the foreseeable future and balance not really coming together.

 

One possible method of improving the situation; Have balance overseen by someone with a minimum of attachment to any given class.

 

**If I were Queen-for-a-day at ANET, I'd make PvP core class only.** This would reduce dev workload to a more reasonable level. I'd also look into the decision making process that permits extreme specs, eg Scourge and trap DH.

 

 

[Vapour.7348]

Pvp doesn't feel like a separate game mode anymore. It's like an extension of PVE. They don't allot the necessary resources for maintenance.

[Chaith.8256]

Ask anyone who has PvPd from vanilla and they'll tell you that either one or two major patches before HoT was the best this game's PvP balance has ever been.

 

Now, if you tried core specs only, you'll find various core specs have been bumped up to match and surpass HoT and PoF specs, while the other half are only as good or worse than they were in 2015 due to the discrepancy in buffs, and the core class being furiously nerfed to balance ultra imbalanced HoT specs.

 

Balance team is so far behind, we're not even talking about the monster top end classes, lul

 

[R E F L H E X.8413]

I don't really see it as 26 seperate classes its like if dueling were released as an elite spec we'd now have something give us the sword called a "duelist". I dont really like how they are doing the expacks I liked how in gw1 I could always choose my new skills. The core specs buff certain weapons and skills without actually having to bring that traitline to use them (domination/gsword dueling/sword) I dont see why the elite lines are so restrictive unlike the core lines. I'd like to take say torch on necro without having to trade my shroud from core.

[Aza.2105]

What I observed about the game is that the key to success is to create builds that require the least effort to play. Its unfortunate because GW1 was the total opposite. Looking at the current state of pvp and the fact that there is no dedicated pvp team. Everyone should expect nothing or very little to change.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> Ask anyone who has PvPd from vanilla and they'll tell you that either one or two major patches before HoT was the best this game's PvP balance has ever been.

>

> Now, if you tried core specs only, you'll find various core specs have been bumped up to match and surpass HoT and PoF specs, while the other half are only as good or worse than they were in 2015 due to the discrepancy in buffs, and the core class being furiously nerfed to balance ultra imbalanced HoT specs.

>

> Balance team is so far behind, we're not even talking about the monster top end classes, lul

>

 

I have PvP'd from vanilla. I came to PvP shortly after the Glamour nerf, frustrated and hoping to learn to be a better fighter. Little did I realize... I'll agree that there were times in vanilla mode that approached good balance.

 

Yes, it seems clear that ANET is far behind, which is why I suggested core-only PvP. I am given to understand that WoW recently released a retrospective game, without it's expansions and that it is quite popular. That was something I noted peripherally so, I won't swear to it.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> I don't really see it as 26 seperate classes its like if dueling were released as an elite spec we'd now have something give us the sword called a "duelist". I dont really like how they are doing the expacks I liked how in gw1 I could always choose my new skills. The core specs buff certain weapons and skills without actually having to bring that traitline to use them (domination/gsword dueling/sword) I dont see why the elite lines are so restrictive unlike the core lines. I'd like to take say torch on necro without having to trade my shroud from core.

 

Agreed, it would be great to freely choose from the available skills and to be able to assign our trait points flexibly as in GW1.

[Exedore.6320]

It's not really a problem of being overworked; it's a basic design problem.

 

What should be happening is a scoring system for traits and skills. _x_ damage is worth so many points, _y_ seconds of protection is wroth so many points, etc. Score subjective stuff as your best guess. Also factor in cooldown and how easy it is to avoid (cast time). This would at least stop skills with crazy damage and CC or boon spam. PvE DPS should have been baselined before HoT elite specs were added to keep them in check.

 

Also, NOTHING should automatically break crowd control in response to being crowd controlled.

[Morwath.9817]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

>

> **If I were Queen-for-a-day at ANET

>

>

 

If Quaggan wouldn't be Quaggan he would:

*Split skills and traits, including functionality in sPvP, WvW and PvE. First, sPvP and WvW/PvE have different avalible gear. Second, traits/skills strong in one game mode doesn't have to be useful in another, e.g. Winds of Disenchantment are really insane in WvW. As long as, traits/skills aren't split its nearly impossible to balance all game modes at same time.

*Turn one 'core' trait line into "mandatory" - could be replaced only with elite specialization, and couldn't be used with elite together, for easier balancing obviously.

*Add voice command system since we're all playing soloQ and communication is the key.

*Open test servers for strangers, so Quaggan could use them as slaves to collect him data, this way Quaggan could avoid some fail balancing patches.

 

Vote for Quaggan today and make future more Wooo-hooooo!

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @Morwath.9817 said:

> > @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> >

> > **If I were Queen-for-a-day at ANET

> >

> >

>

> If Quaggan wouldn't be Quaggan he would:

> *Split skills and traits, including functionality in sPvP, WvW and PvE. First, sPvP and WvW/PvE have different avalible gear. Second, traits/skills strong in one game mode doesn't have to be useful in another, e.g. Winds of Disenchantment are really insane in WvW. As long as, traits/skills aren't split its nearly impossible to balance all game modes at same time.

> *Turn one 'core' trait line into "mandatory" - could be replaced only with elite specialization, and couldn't be used with elite together, for easier balancing obviously.

> *Add voice command system since we're all playing soloQ and communication is the key.

> *Open test servers for strangers, so Quaggan could use them as slaves to collect him data, this way Quaggan could avoid some fail balancing patches.

>

> Vote for Quaggan today and make future more Wooo-hooooo!

 

Public test servers would be great. STO, ( Star Trek Online an NC soft sister game, ) has a permanent test server and regularly tests new missions and equipment. It works very well. We Star Fleeters almost never have to deal with stuff that is grossly out of balance.

[messiah.1908]

my problem is when anet at the start stated each class can fulfill any role and dump the holy trinity idea. this idea at first looked promising.

but what happend is that now all power build seems the same with 25 might stacks fast, high dmg burst and some high risk aswell.

no real healer beside ele and now guard (and short time ventari who was more bunker).

any unique mechanism has lost its identity. most class has unique way of doing the same thing. evade,block,stealth. which eventually will lead to more vagueness.

 

warrior , rev, guard - team melee class while warrior power sustain, rev power burst and guard power support

ranger, thief , engi - more solo medium class. thief high burst in and out. ranger dmg , support and sustain and engi dmg and sustain,

ele, mesmer, necro - group light. can be good at all in some lvl. dmg , support, and sustain.

 

what we got is this -

warrior - condi, power, sustain 1v1 and 1v2.

guard - condi, power, sustain, support

rev - power (common anet)

ranger - condi, power, sustain, support

thief - power condi

engi - power, condi (some), sustain

ele - support, (power some)

mesmer - condi (power some)

necro - condi (power some)

 

 

 

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @messiah.1908 said:

> my problem is when anet at the start stated each class can fulfill any role and dump the holy trinity idea. this idea at first looked promising.

> but what happend is that now all power build seems the same with 25 might stacks fast, high dmg burst and some high risk aswell.

> no real healer beside ele and now guard (and short time ventari who was more bunker).

> any unique mechanism has lost its identity. most class has unique way of doing the same thing. evade,block,stealth. which eventually will lead to more vagueness.

>

> warrior , rev, guard - team melee class while warrior power sustain, rev power burst and guard power support

> ranger, thief , engi - more solo medium class. thief high burst in and out. ranger dmg , support and sustain and engi dmg and sustain,

> ele, mesmer, necro - group light. can be good at all in some lvl. dmg , support, and sustain.

>

> what we got is this -

> warrior - condi, power, sustain 1v1 and 1v2.

> guard - condi, power, sustain, support

> rev - power (common anet)

> ranger - condi, power, sustain, support

> thief - power condi

> engi - power, condi (some), sustain

> ele - support, (power some)

> mesmer - condi (power some)

> necro - condi (power some)

>

>

>

 

I couldn't agree more. That's why I said that I predict the classes becoming more and more alike. Tempest had the look of a new Monk but that was nerfed into the ground. Mechanics like interrupt and punishments like clone death have also been removed. **( Although SB's Full Counter has virtually the same effect as clone death and is even stronger.)**

 

There's a faction that is driving toward a simpler and simpler game, console style. In my opinion, that will destroy the richness and variety that is the main selling point of GW2.

[Damocles.4908]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> Ask anyone who has PvPd from vanilla and they'll tell you that either one or two major patches before HoT was the best this game's PvP balance has ever been.

>

> Now, if you tried core specs only, you'll find various core specs have been bumped up to match and surpass HoT and PoF specs, while the other half are only as good or worse than they were in 2015 due to the discrepancy in buffs, and the core class being furiously nerfed to balance ultra imbalanced HoT specs.

>

> Balance team is so far behind, we're not even talking about the monster top end classes, lul

>

 

Yeap as a pvper from day 1, I really loved the dynamic of combat and trying to figure out your opponents combos during the fight and try to beat it, yes there were some builds that countered others but it wasn't an explosion of flashing lights and high burst damage. I remember the necro's damage wasn't too strong but rather its danger came from its field conditions like poison, weakness, vulnerability, chill etc> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> The 8 class core game was never completely balanced out before the introduction of HoT. With the subsequent PoF, we're looking at 26 separate classes.

>

> It's no wonder that balance hasn't gone well.

>

> When a person or team is overwhelmed, it's not uncommon for them to stop being effective. One of the artifices to address this has been to share out any trait or skill that is outstanding. That might or might not be effective. I think it reduces the richness and quality of the game.

>

> As things stand, I see the classes becoming more and more alike for the foreseeable future and balance not really coming together.

>

> One possible method of improving the situation; Have balance overseen by someone with a minimum of attachment to any given class.

>

> **If I were Queen-for-a-day at ANET, I'd make PvP core class only.** This would reduce dev workload to a more reasonable level. I'd also look into the decision making process that permits extreme specs, eg Scourge and trap DH.

>

>

As a pvper from day 1, I really loved the dynamic of combat and trying to figure out your opponents combos during the fight and trying to beat it, yes there were some builds that countered others but it wasn't an explosion of flashing lights and high burst damage. I remember the necro's damage wasn't too strong but rather its danger came from its field conditions like poison, weakness, vulnerability, chill etc, there was a lot more support specific from each class. Even the builds I had I know I couldn't defeat everyone I came across (was a bleed warrior, eles gave me a hard time) but I could still put up a good fight or until a teammate showed up. Now I feel like I am forced to Use a greatsword or what every else the "meta gobs" says I must do.

[maddoctor.2738]

Maybe they could do a split queue, one as is, the other with core specs only, to see which one is better.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> Maybe they could do a split queue, one as is, the other with core specs only, to see which one is better.

 

I'd rather just have a split que for deathmatch or even a few new stronghold maps that focus more on killing the players like a true gvg map. The complaints on courtyard arent really complaints against deathmatch respawning like conquest and the map itself were more of a problem than deathmatch itself. Would really prefer deathmatch especially on firebrand.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > Maybe they could do a split queue, one as is, the other with core specs only, to see which one is better.

>

> I'd rather just have a split que for deathmatch or even a few new stronghold maps that focus more on killing the players like a true gvg map. The complaints on courtyard arent really complaints against deathmatch respawning like conquest and the map itself were more of a problem than deathmatch itself. Would really prefer deathmatch especially on firebrand.

 

One of the issues I had with Courtyard was the fact that it was mixed in with conquest's queue. Thus, when we got the map, I tended to be on a profession and build set up with conquest in mind, not one meant for deathmatch. That put me at a huge disadvantage sometimes, if my build was not intended for team fighting.

[Morwath.9817]

> @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

> > @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > Maybe they could do a split queue, one as is, the other with core specs only, to see which one is better.

> >

> > I'd rather just have a split que for deathmatch or even a few new stronghold maps that focus more on killing the players like a true gvg map. The complaints on courtyard arent really complaints against deathmatch respawning like conquest and the map itself were more of a problem than deathmatch itself. Would really prefer deathmatch especially on firebrand.

>

> One of the issues I had with Courtyard was the fact that it was mixed in with conquest's queue. Thus, when we got the map, I tended to be on a profession and build set up with conquest in mind, not one meant for deathmatch. That put me at a huge disadvantage sometimes, if my build was not intended for team fighting.

 

Ooo, yes, that was main issue for Quaggan. Another issue were respawns, -best of 3- elimination would make it much more enjoyable for Quaggan.

[Ithilwen.1529]

I disliked deathmatch intensely. Still, for a queue that was core builds only, I'd tolerate it. The idea of doing a test queue on core only makes sense and ought to be considered.