GreyWolf.8670 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > > > Recent events on Reddit regarding a certain other publisher certainly do put things in perspective, don't they? Have you guys *seen* the economy in *that* game? Full AAA price, with loot boxes on top that literally are pay to win. A bajillion different currencies and unlocks and crafting and cards and locked characters, all screaming at you to pay money to get passed the grind. > > > > > > > > This really puts ArenaNet's "Here's 30 mounts have at it!" attitude into perspective. I'm not saying I agree with loot boxes in *any* form, but I sure am glad I threw my hat in with Gaille and her Krew, instead of those unbelievable kitten hats at that *other* publisher. > > > > > > > > So, how about some love for our chums at ArenaNet? Not everything they do is always super popular, but for goodness sake, they are at least still human! > > > > > > I'm just going to throw one more thing about the 30 mount skins. You know, as food for thought.> @Zakka.2153 said: > > > > How about no, and we stop pretending that these types of business practices are ok. Developers and Companies should strive to make their service excellent not nickel and dime their consumers any given chance. > > > > > > See, this kind of attitude is precisely why developers are forced into exploring various monetization methods. > > > > Forced? Anet is doing better than expected financially. This means that new mount license is motivated only by greed. > > How do you know that? You don't have information about their revenues, nor you have information about their expenses. You're just guessing and drawing conclusions from it. > > Additionally, it is utterly arrogant to say what the devs should *strive* to do. Do you have any idea what it is like to be passionate about a game in development, to do your best about it, to end up with a good game that the users love but that barely pays for its development? Let me say that as a developer, I'm quite disillusioned about the playerbase. Users want polished and entertaining games, they want content, but they want it free. Sorry, you can't have that. Gamedev is a business, not a charity. I actually have friends in the gaming industry. They all start with passion, then they settle in to just wanting to feed their family. This kind of business decision is generally what ends up making them have to look for a new job and being out of work for months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Michael.8562 said: > > @DarcShriek.5829 said: > > Good Lord, another thread about mount boxes. Would you guys quit hijacking threads please. > > Good lordy lordy, another post complaining about someone else’s post. > > Really, thank the internet gods that there are self appointed arbiters of proper posting to tell us when we’ve gone off the path and correct us. Good job! > > You needn’t have worried though since apparently the OP was only interested in fishing for up votes. Nice! Really does make you think when people feign outrage about others genuine outrage doesn't it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Michael.8562 said: > > > @DarcShriek.5829 said: > > > Good Lord, another thread about mount boxes. Would you guys quit hijacking threads please. > > > > Good lordy lordy, another post complaining about someone else’s post. > > > > Really, thank the internet gods that there are self appointed arbiters of proper posting to tell us when we’ve gone off the path and correct us. Good job! > > > > You needn’t have worried though since apparently the OP was only interested in fishing for up votes. Nice! > > Really does make you think when people feign outrage about others genuine outrage doesn't it ? I know, just like you I'm tired at all this fake outrage over these mount boxes. First off, they lie and call it gambling when it isn't. Then there are those that make it sound like Anet is forcing them to buy them. Like you, I tire at their feigned outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosleepdemon.1368 Posted November 16, 2017 Author Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Michael.8562 said: > > @DarcShriek.5829 said: > > Good Lord, another thread about mount boxes. Would you guys quit hijacking threads please. > > Good lordy lordy, another post complaining about someone else’s post. > > Really, thank the internet gods that there are self appointed arbiters of proper posting to tell us when we’ve gone off the path and correct us. Good job! > > You needn’t have worried though since apparently the OP was only interested in fishing for up votes. Nice! Was it truth? Was it a lie?? Nobody knows, but I think this thread has run its course folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancientoak.4258 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 Good post. Im more then tired of all the negativity on the internet (not only games btw). One big pool of opposite characters and ideals clashing with each other. Lets share the Guildwars love, looking forward to the next LS update =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuddy.6247 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 I never had a huge beef with the mounts or even the idea of the "RNG" skins (because they weren't RNG, they were 30...RNG is like trying to get the Twin's insignia recipe, you can roll 30 times and still not get it because every roll resets the odds). I just thought a lot of the skins looked bland and they could have definitely put some of those skins into Path of Fire which has already been criticised as being oversold as "focused on content." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @GreyWolf.8670 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > > > > Recent events on Reddit regarding a certain other publisher certainly do put things in perspective, don't they? Have you guys *seen* the economy in *that* game? Full AAA price, with loot boxes on top that literally are pay to win. A bajillion different currencies and unlocks and crafting and cards and locked characters, all screaming at you to pay money to get passed the grind. > > > > > > > > > > This really puts ArenaNet's "Here's 30 mounts have at it!" attitude into perspective. I'm not saying I agree with loot boxes in *any* form, but I sure am glad I threw my hat in with Gaille and her Krew, instead of those unbelievable kitten hats at that *other* publisher. > > > > > > > > > > So, how about some love for our chums at ArenaNet? Not everything they do is always super popular, but for goodness sake, they are at least still human! > > > > > > > > I'm just going to throw one more thing about the 30 mount skins. You know, as food for thought.> @Zakka.2153 said: > > > > > How about no, and we stop pretending that these types of business practices are ok. Developers and Companies should strive to make their service excellent not nickel and dime their consumers any given chance. > > > > > > > > See, this kind of attitude is precisely why developers are forced into exploring various monetization methods. > > > > > > Forced? Anet is doing better than expected financially. This means that new mount license is motivated only by greed. > > > > How do you know that? You don't have information about their revenues, nor you have information about their expenses. You're just guessing and drawing conclusions from it. > > > > Additionally, it is utterly arrogant to say what the devs should *strive* to do. Do you have any idea what it is like to be passionate about a game in development, to do your best about it, to end up with a good game that the users love but that barely pays for its development? Let me say that as a developer, I'm quite disillusioned about the playerbase. Users want polished and entertaining games, they want content, but they want it free. Sorry, you can't have that. Gamedev is a business, not a charity. > > I actually have friends in the gaming industry. They all start with passion, then they settle in to just wanting to feed their family. This kind of business decision is generally what ends up making them have to look for a new job and being out of work for months. Been there, done that. Literally. I spend my last 13+ years in the industry. It's a basic relationship issue. You can't put your heart and soul into something forever, getting mostly bitching and complaining in return. I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tekey.7946 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > **I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try.** Quite ironic how arrogant this statement is, no? You know that lots of people who play games nowadays actually **do** have knowledge about games, concept art, 3d design, coding, storytelling and the like? It's not rocket science anymore, there are lots of talented people around who can easily get an educational version of Maya and start creating their own 3d models, put them into Unreal Engine (or something else) and start working on their own game. Lots of the new 'mount skins' only consist of unlocking more dye channels or a simple change of their texture (look, your raptor now has 3 spots on its back instead of just 2!!! That's worth 5$, right?). Stop claiming people do not know anything, judging them if you don't know them. EDIT: Oh and maybe that's why people are skeptical about statements like: "We need 9 months to create a single armor set, we'll release 100 new outfits in the same time instead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @GreyWolf.8670 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > > > > > Recent events on Reddit regarding a certain other publisher certainly do put things in perspective, don't they? Have you guys *seen* the economy in *that* game? Full AAA price, with loot boxes on top that literally are pay to win. A bajillion different currencies and unlocks and crafting and cards and locked characters, all screaming at you to pay money to get passed the grind. > > > > > > > > > > > > This really puts ArenaNet's "Here's 30 mounts have at it!" attitude into perspective. I'm not saying I agree with loot boxes in *any* form, but I sure am glad I threw my hat in with Gaille and her Krew, instead of those unbelievable kitten hats at that *other* publisher. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, how about some love for our chums at ArenaNet? Not everything they do is always super popular, but for goodness sake, they are at least still human! > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to throw one more thing about the 30 mount skins. You know, as food for thought.> @Zakka.2153 said: > > > > > > How about no, and we stop pretending that these types of business practices are ok. Developers and Companies should strive to make their service excellent not nickel and dime their consumers any given chance. > > > > > > > > > > See, this kind of attitude is precisely why developers are forced into exploring various monetization methods. > > > > > > > > Forced? Anet is doing better than expected financially. This means that new mount license is motivated only by greed. > > > > > > How do you know that? You don't have information about their revenues, nor you have information about their expenses. You're just guessing and drawing conclusions from it. > > > > > > Additionally, it is utterly arrogant to say what the devs should *strive* to do. Do you have any idea what it is like to be passionate about a game in development, to do your best about it, to end up with a good game that the users love but that barely pays for its development? Let me say that as a developer, I'm quite disillusioned about the playerbase. Users want polished and entertaining games, they want content, but they want it free. Sorry, you can't have that. Gamedev is a business, not a charity. > > > > I actually have friends in the gaming industry. They all start with passion, then they settle in to just wanting to feed their family. This kind of business decision is generally what ends up making them have to look for a new job and being out of work for months. > > Been there, done that. Literally. I spend my last 13+ years in the industry. It's a basic relationship issue. You can't put your heart and soul into something forever, getting mostly kitten and complaining in return. I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try. Monetization model is never made by coders or designers. And gaming is no longer 90s niche art-like nerd stuff. It's mainstream bussiness now. It has no soul and no passion unless we're talking about indie games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Tekey.7946 said: > Lots of the new 'mount skins' only consist of unlocking more dye channels or a simple change of their texture (look, your raptor now has 3 spots on its back instead of just 2!!! That's worth 5$, right?). And the tech that made all this possible is free, right? I urge you to go ahead, create some 3D models, import them into Unreal and try to make something fun out of that. You'll find it's not as easy as you think. > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @GreyWolf.8670 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > > > > > > Recent events on Reddit regarding a certain other publisher certainly do put things in perspective, don't they? Have you guys *seen* the economy in *that* game? Full AAA price, with loot boxes on top that literally are pay to win. A bajillion different currencies and unlocks and crafting and cards and locked characters, all screaming at you to pay money to get passed the grind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This really puts ArenaNet's "Here's 30 mounts have at it!" attitude into perspective. I'm not saying I agree with loot boxes in *any* form, but I sure am glad I threw my hat in with Gaille and her Krew, instead of those unbelievable kitten hats at that *other* publisher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, how about some love for our chums at ArenaNet? Not everything they do is always super popular, but for goodness sake, they are at least still human! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to throw one more thing about the 30 mount skins. You know, as food for thought.> @Zakka.2153 said: > > > > > > > How about no, and we stop pretending that these types of business practices are ok. Developers and Companies should strive to make their service excellent not nickel and dime their consumers any given chance. > > > > > > > > > > > > See, this kind of attitude is precisely why developers are forced into exploring various monetization methods. > > > > > > > > > > Forced? Anet is doing better than expected financially. This means that new mount license is motivated only by greed. > > > > > > > > How do you know that? You don't have information about their revenues, nor you have information about their expenses. You're just guessing and drawing conclusions from it. > > > > > > > > Additionally, it is utterly arrogant to say what the devs should *strive* to do. Do you have any idea what it is like to be passionate about a game in development, to do your best about it, to end up with a good game that the users love but that barely pays for its development? Let me say that as a developer, I'm quite disillusioned about the playerbase. Users want polished and entertaining games, they want content, but they want it free. Sorry, you can't have that. Gamedev is a business, not a charity. > > > > > > I actually have friends in the gaming industry. They all start with passion, then they settle in to just wanting to feed their family. This kind of business decision is generally what ends up making them have to look for a new job and being out of work for months. > > > > Been there, done that. Literally. I spend my last 13+ years in the industry. It's a basic relationship issue. You can't put your heart and soul into something forever, getting mostly kitten and complaining in return. I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try. > > Monetization model is never made by coders or designers. And gaming is no longer 90s niche art-like nerd stuff. It's mainstream bussiness now. It has no soul and no passion unless we're talking about indie games. It's not black-or-white. It never is. Even in the most "soulless" big companies I can bet there are people who have enthusiasm and genuine passion about the games their make. In fact, I expect most of the people in the industry are like that. It's the marketing and management which are the mainstream business, not the actual dev teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > It's not black-or-white. It never is. Even in the most "soulless" big companies I can bet there are people who have enthusiasm and genuine passion about the games their make. In fact, I expect most of the people in the industry are like that. It's the marketing and management which are the mainstream business, not the actual dev teams. But from customer point of view, dev passion is pointless. Gaming is bussiness. If they are cynically milking their customers there is no reason to act like they are doing anything more but bussiness. If you are passionate about the job, that's cool for you, but I personally don't care either way. Do your job well and I will pay. Game dev is not my friend. It's just another no-name person behind company logo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMAI.5892 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > Been there, done that. Literally. I spend my last 13+ years in the industry. It's a basic relationship issue. You can't put your heart and soul into something forever, getting mostly kitten and complaining in return. I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try. Consumers do not need to understand all that goes into making any particular product. All that they need to know and be able to evaluate is "is this product at a price that I can afford/want to pay?" The basic relationship issue is the same as all commerce no matter what it is: customers want to pay less and companies want to sell their product for the highest price the market will bear. I don't doubt that devs work hard on the game. I've no doubt that they have skills. But at the end of the day, the question is always: can I afford this or is my money better spent elsewhere? There are hundreds of businesses across the spectrum that fail every single year because they are unable to find the market they need, supply product at a price the market can afford, manage their own overhead accordingly, keep pace with their competition, or some combination of those. What video games suffer is *no different*. Talk to independent authors who, in order to keep their consumer base, have to churn out a full-length novel every 1-3 months (genre dependent) with a sleek covers , multiple rounds of editing to polish it, a huge marketing push in the beginning, all to charge - if they're lucky - around $1-$5 per book. The fall off on sales for a novel is around a month and it is *very* steep (if a writer happens to find a growing niche genre, then they might have a longer window). The people who are successful at it work 10-12 hours a day pretty much year round because if an author misses too many cycles without an offering, their readers go elsewhere and authors devote almost half their time to understanding and capturing market trends. Games have tons of competition and they're *all* clamoring for our money and they all can't get it. Gamers, like any other consumer, will go to the company that gives them what they want at a price they can happily pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tekey.7946 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Tekey.7946 said: > > Lots of the new 'mount skins' only consist of unlocking more dye channels or a simple change of their texture (look, your raptor now has 3 spots on its back instead of just 2!!! That's worth 5$, right?). > > And the tech that made all this possible is free, right? I urge you to go ahead, create some 3D models, import them into Unreal and try to make something fun out of that. You'll find it's not as easy as you think. ? It is being done by lots of 'amateur developers', indie game devs and people who just like to do it as their hobby. Everyone with a pc and internet access can do it nowadays, it's 2017, there are guides, courses, even youtube tutorials for free. That's the technical point. There are tons of kickstarter projects, green light steam games where only 1 - 10 people worked at. They may not be on the same level as an AAA game with a few hundreds of people and millions of budget, but they're simply doing it on their own. How to make something fun out of it when you already have the engine and tools? The best multiplayer maps in Warcraft III were created by players who used the existing world editor. Sometimes, they added new 3d models, sometimes they just used the existing models. But everytime, they thought of a new (competitive) game design that is fun to play. As far as I know there are still people playing it because it's so versatile and just fun to play. Lots of normal people were creative in their free time and it worked great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @MMAI.5892 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > Been there, done that. Literally. I spend my last 13+ years in the industry. It's a basic relationship issue. You can't put your heart and soul into something forever, getting mostly kitten and complaining in return. I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try. > > Consumers do not need to understand all that goes into making any particular product. All that they need to know and be able to evaluate is "is this product at a price that I can afford/want to pay?" The basic relationship issue is the same as all commerce no matter what it is: customers want to pay less and companies want to sell their product for the highest price the market will bear. > > I don't doubt that devs work hard on the game. I've no doubt that they have skills. But at the end of the day, the question is always: can I afford this or is my money better spent elsewhere? There are hundreds of businesses across the spectrum that fail every single year because they are unable to find the market they need, supply product at a price the market can afford, manage their own overhead accordingly, keep pace with their competition, or some combination of those. > > What video games suffer is *no different*. Talk to independent authors who, in order to keep their consumer base, have to churn out a full-length novel every 1-3 months (genre dependent) with a sleek covers , multiple rounds of editing to polish it, a huge marketing push in the beginning, all to charge - if they're lucky - around $1-$5 per book. The fall off on sales for a novel is around a month and it is *very* steep (if a writer happens to find a growing niche genre, then they might have a longer window). The people who are successful at it work 10-12 hours a day pretty much year round because if an author misses too many cycles without an offering, their readers go elsewhere and authors devote almost half their time to understanding and capturing market trends. > > Games have tons of competition and they're *all* clamoring for our money and they all can't get it. Gamers, like any other consumer, will go to the company that gives them what they want at a price they can happily pay. Agreed. But consider this: I don't see players saying "meh, that's too pricey, I'll go to another game/wait a promotion/not buy it". I see players saying "meh, make that cheaper". Now, I totally understand the concept of overpriced goods. Most of the time they're overpriced not because of their production costs, but simply because their makers *can* charge extra for their product. Nobody complains that Ferrari make damn expensive cars. We just admire them from distance and wish we could afford one. My point is, if you're going to treat the game industry as any other industry, that's fine but it invalidates the premise of the complaints. You don't like a deal in the gem store? Then don't buy, simple as that. Treating it as any other industry only when it fits your case is double standard. > @Tekey.7946 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Tekey.7946 said: > > > Lots of the new 'mount skins' only consist of unlocking more dye channels or a simple change of their texture (look, your raptor now has 3 spots on its back instead of just 2!!! That's worth 5$, right?). > > > > And the tech that made all this possible is free, right? I urge you to go ahead, create some 3D models, import them into Unreal and try to make something fun out of that. You'll find it's not as easy as you think. > > ? It is being done by lots of 'amateur developers', indie game devs and people who just like to do it as their hobby. Everyone with a pc and internet access can do it nowadays, it's 2017, there are guides, courses, even youtube tutorials for free. That's the technical point. There are tons of kickstarter projects, green light steam games where only 1 - 10 people worked at. They may not be on the same level as an AAA game with a few hundreds of people and millions of budget, but they're simply doing it on their own. > > How to make something fun out of it when you already have the engine and tools? > The best multiplayer maps in Warcraft III were created by players who used the existing world editor. Sometimes, they added new 3d models, sometimes they just used the existing models. But everytime, they thought of a new (competitive) game design that is fun to play. As far as I know there are still people playing it because it's so versatile and just fun to play. > Lots of normal people were creative in their free time and it worked great. Sure, lots of people are creative. But there's a limit to what you can do alone, or in a small team. What you describe simply doesn't scale. The projects that can be done in this matter are very, very small. If you have a knack for game design you can still end up with a fun to play, simple game. But you can't end up with a MMO. These are massive projects, with mind-boggling amounts of everything. Artwork, game mechanics, internal systems, literally everything. You simply *have* to use a large team for something of this caliber. It's not even a question of time, a small team can never finish something on that scale, much less support it. Large team times long development time is your tech cost. The price you pay for being able to add new skins with relatively small amount of work, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Tekey.7946 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > **I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try.** > > Quite ironic how arrogant this statement is, no? > You know that lots of people who play games nowadays actually **do** have knowledge about games, concept art, 3d design, coding, storytelling and the like? > > It's not rocket science anymore, there are lots of talented people around who can easily get an educational version of Maya and start creating their own 3d models, put them into Unreal Engine (or something else) and start working on their own game. > > Lots of the new 'mount skins' only consist of unlocking more dye channels or a simple change of their texture (look, your raptor now has 3 spots on its back instead of just 2!!! That's worth 5$, right?). > > Stop claiming people do not know anything, judging them if you don't know them. > > EDIT: > > Oh and maybe that's why people are skeptical about statements like: "We need 9 months to create a single armor set, we'll release 100 new outfits in the same time instead." Actually let me correct you: > You know that lots of people who play games nowadays actually **think they** have knowledge about games, concept art, 3d design, coding, storytelling and the like? Sitting in your moms basement (I just had to use the trope) and programing a unique map for a game using its editor or even making your own indie game is far from how the industry works or how a developer with 300+ employees operates or how a MMO of this magnitude is getting developed for. That said, a majority of the people who **think** they know stuff usually know jack squat. If you're a game developer (and especially if you are working or have worked on a triple A title or MMO) I very much doubt you'd get upset on a message board of another developer. 99% of the people being critical here are at best wanna-be know-it-alls with maybe some coding skills. Main reason being, as a for mentioned developer you've been on the receiving end of player behavior which will give you a lot more compassion towards fellow developers. > Oh and maybe that's why people are skeptical about statements like: "We need 9 months to create a single armor set, we'll release 100 new outfits in the same time instead." People can be skeptical all they want, designing and implementing a new armor set which has to fit 5 races and both sexes and has to interact with every single armor and equipment piece is far more complicated than designing a outfit which only has to fit race and sex. Assuming that developer (especially the art department in this case) resources are split between part in game work and part revenue generation (thanks to out no subscription monetisation model by the way), it's not unlikely that now in game sets can take quite a while. If you had some developer experience in this area, you'd know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMAI.5892 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @MMAI.5892 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > Been there, done that. Literally. I spend my last 13+ years in the industry. It's a basic relationship issue. You can't put your heart and soul into something forever, getting mostly kitten and complaining in return. I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try. > > > > Consumers do not need to understand all that goes into making any particular product. All that they need to know and be able to evaluate is "is this product at a price that I can afford/want to pay?" The basic relationship issue is the same as all commerce no matter what it is: customers want to pay less and companies want to sell their product for the highest price the market will bear. > > > > I don't doubt that devs work hard on the game. I've no doubt that they have skills. But at the end of the day, the question is always: can I afford this or is my money better spent elsewhere? There are hundreds of businesses across the spectrum that fail every single year because they are unable to find the market they need, supply product at a price the market can afford, manage their own overhead accordingly, keep pace with their competition, or some combination of those. > > > > What video games suffer is *no different*. Talk to independent authors who, in order to keep their consumer base, have to churn out a full-length novel every 1-3 months (genre dependent) with a sleek covers , multiple rounds of editing to polish it, a huge marketing push in the beginning, all to charge - if they're lucky - around $1-$5 per book. The fall off on sales for a novel is around a month and it is *very* steep (if a writer happens to find a growing niche genre, then they might have a longer window). The people who are successful at it work 10-12 hours a day pretty much year round because if an author misses too many cycles without an offering, their readers go elsewhere and authors devote almost half their time to understanding and capturing market trends. > > > > Games have tons of competition and they're *all* clamoring for our money and they all can't get it. Gamers, like any other consumer, will go to the company that gives them what they want at a price they can happily pay. > > Agreed. But consider this: I don't see players saying "meh, that's too pricey, I'll go to another game/wait a promotion/not buy it". I see players saying "meh, make that cheaper". Now, I totally understand the concept of overpriced goods. Most of the time they're overpriced not because of their production costs, but simply because their makers *can* charge extra for their product. Nobody complains that Ferrari make kitten expensive cars. We just admire them from distance and wish we could afford one. My point is, if you're going to treat the game industry as any other industry, that's fine but it invalidates the premise of the complaints. You don't like a deal in the gem store? Then don't buy, simple as that. Treating it as any other industry only when it fits your case is double standard. *meh, that's too pricey, I'll go to another game/wait a promotion/not buy it* - I see this all the time in general gaming forums or in discussions with friends, and to be honest, I don't see the second of making it cheaper as that much different at the end of the day. If a publisher puts out a game at $200 per box and only 10 people buy it, that's pretty much a silent cry of 'make it cheaper'. Now if the publisher can charge that price *and* capture enough of the market to make a desired profit, more power to them. The reason publishers don't charge that price is because they know they won't sell enough units to make it 'worth their while' (in quotes because this is often subjective as in whether or not that particular company aims for 10% profit, vs. 20% for example.). The market they are trying to capture aren't people who can afford Ferraris, it's people that range from teenager to college student to working adult - all of whom have variable levels of disposal income and most of those people's disposable income comes in smaller chunks - say $5-$20 dollars per month - instead of $200+ all at once. Sure, they'll save up if they know something they really want is coming down the pipeline, but there are also 10,20, or more titles all competing for that as well in the same time frame. Take this, for example, I worked with a restaurateur once. They were also the head chef of their first restaurant. The food was amazing, the place clean, the front and back house staffs well trained. But they lost money every month. The problem wasn't the product or people's willingness to buy it. It was that he was running a high end restaurant in a working class area. People would splurge for birthdays, anniversaries, etc, but this wasn't a place they could afford to go after work or every other weekend. So, they had a choice to make - provide a less expensive but still quality experience at a price the market could afford, move the business to a different market that could support it, or shut down the doors. What they couldn't do is turn to the community and say "gosh, don't you guys know how hard we work and how great our stuff is?? It's completely ungrateful of you to not pay what we want you to pay as often as we want you to pay it." *You don't like a deal in the gem store?* - I treat the gem store as I treat any other shop and buy what I like out of it. If I had confidence that it would be 'just' mount licenses, I probably wouldn't care, but I suspect it won't be and if it turns out that in game rewards (hey, we all play GW2 for entertainment and gaming) get too anemic and the gem store too prevalent with RNG, I'll quit the game because the entertainment I get out of it will no longer be worth the time and money. For the record, I don't inherently consider lootboxes to be the Most Horrible Thing Ever Call the Ethics Police, but I do understand the mechanisms behind them and those brush up more against 'fast talking used car salesman' than 'company that wants to provide me quality product'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn.9245 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Michael.8562 said: > I can see why people are frustrated over the mount skins but I think the problem is that ANET developed 30 mount skins and wants them to be received equally - to avoid the same 6 or 7 being purchased while the others languish. It's a problem when developing assets for a game. We players clamor for more and more skins and from the point of view of the developer each one is a gamble. Just look at the weapons skins that are developed - not all of them in each set are received equally well by players but the cost of developing each is the same. So by putting them in a random box with a guaranteed unique item (no repeats) each try it seems there was an attempt to make the cost of developing those skins equalize across the whole complement of mount skins - not some dark attempt to bamboozle the players. I'm guessing this is the last time you'll see that many skins released all at once. The problem is that Anet's marketing department knows exactly what gamble boxes are and what they do. Gamble boxes are, by definition, an attempt to have the customer buy more than they intend because there is little chance that they will get what they want on the first try. Therefore, putting all the skins in a gamble box was not an "oops, we were only trying to get equal love for all skins". I agree that Anet want all of their skins to have an equal chance at being purchased, but that is just unrealistic and simply not going to happen in a fair and open market. AND THEY KNEW THIS FROM THE START. Stores deal with this all the time. In a grocery store, you can tell which vegetable sells most because there are huge piles of them. But the store still carries small numbers of other veggies that don't sell well because they want to provide a variety. Sometimes they even have items they carry which they know will be a net loss because they want to provide variety. The answer isn't to try to force the customer to buy things that are less popular. You reduce the price of those items, and if they still don't sell well you adjust the prices of your other items to compensate. If an items doesn't sell AT ALL, you might remove it from offer and move on. But gamble boxes are not necessary for any business to succeed. We are used to seeing them in games but we rarely see them from businesses outside gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn.9245 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @ancientoak.4258 said: > Good post. Im more then tired of all the negativity on the internet (not only games btw). One big pool of opposite characters and ideals clashing with each other. Lets share the Guildwars love, looking forward to the next LS update =) I think that you and the others in this boat should keep in mind that we are complaining because we care. We enjoy GW2 and don't want to see it go down the road of EA, etc. If it goes down that road, many of us will leave in disgust and we don't want to do that. If we don't say anything, Anet won't understand that many of us will not put up with this type of marketing. I don't agree with those that have used insults or threats or other extremes, but there is no harm in us expressing our opinion in a calm manner. Those that are sick of reading it should stop doing that. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn.9245 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @GreyWolf.8670 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > > > > > Recent events on Reddit regarding a certain other publisher certainly do put things in perspective, don't they? Have you guys *seen* the economy in *that* game? Full AAA price, with loot boxes on top that literally are pay to win. A bajillion different currencies and unlocks and crafting and cards and locked characters, all screaming at you to pay money to get passed the grind. > > > > > > > > > > > > This really puts ArenaNet's "Here's 30 mounts have at it!" attitude into perspective. I'm not saying I agree with loot boxes in *any* form, but I sure am glad I threw my hat in with Gaille and her Krew, instead of those unbelievable kitten hats at that *other* publisher. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, how about some love for our chums at ArenaNet? Not everything they do is always super popular, but for goodness sake, they are at least still human! > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to throw one more thing about the 30 mount skins. You know, as food for thought.> @Zakka.2153 said: > > > > > > How about no, and we stop pretending that these types of business practices are ok. Developers and Companies should strive to make their service excellent not nickel and dime their consumers any given chance. > > > > > > > > > > See, this kind of attitude is precisely why developers are forced into exploring various monetization methods. > > > > > > > > Forced? Anet is doing better than expected financially. This means that new mount license is motivated only by greed. > > > > > > How do you know that? You don't have information about their revenues, nor you have information about their expenses. You're just guessing and drawing conclusions from it. > > > > > > Additionally, it is utterly arrogant to say what the devs should *strive* to do. Do you have any idea what it is like to be passionate about a game in development, to do your best about it, to end up with a good game that the users love but that barely pays for its development? Let me say that as a developer, I'm quite disillusioned about the playerbase. Users want polished and entertaining games, they want content, but they want it free. Sorry, you can't have that. Gamedev is a business, not a charity. > > > > I actually have friends in the gaming industry. They all start with passion, then they settle in to just wanting to feed their family. This kind of business decision is generally what ends up making them have to look for a new job and being out of work for months. > > Been there, done that. Literally. I spend my last 13+ years in the industry. It's a basic relationship issue. You can't put your heart and soul into something forever, getting mostly kitten and complaining in return. I get that the players don't have a remotely accurate idea of how hard it is to create a game. I know they can't really appreciate all the work, all the effort and all the passion that go into the process. But they can at least not be so demanding and arrogant. They can at least try. This isn't only true of gaming. Think of all of the companies out there that put their heart and soul into making a new product that no one pays any attention to. Watch Shark Tank or any of the similar shows - and those are only a tiny sample of people in that position. And then if they do get to the point of actually selling their product, EVERY COMPANY has to deal with customers who are demanding, customers who think they know how to do it better, customers who are rude, etc. It's not just in gaming. The vast majority of employees in most companies don't read the company's feedback, so us players who are not in the gaming business usually don't think about what we would see if we looked at the feedback of the company we work for. And every single employee of every single company in the world just want to feed their family. None of this is specific to gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tekey.7946 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > Sure, lots of people are creative. But there's a limit to what you can do alone, or in a small team. What you describe simply doesn't scale. The projects that can be done in this matter are very, very small. If you have a knack for game design you can still end up with a fun to play, simple game. But you can't end up with a MMO. These are massive projects, with mind-boggling amounts of everything. Artwork, game mechanics, internal systems, literally everything. You simply *have* to use a large team for something of this caliber. It's not even a question of time, a small team can never finish something on that scale, much less support it. Large team times long development time is your tech cost. The price you pay for being able to add new skins with relatively small amount of work, for instance. People were happy with GW1, which was run by a smaller team, got 3 campaigns and 1 expansion in the same time GW2 released just one single expansion. GW1 was greatly supported by the box sales (Factions released in April 2006, Nightfall: October 2006). People liked to pay for the content they got by buying the campaigns/expansion - without paying a subscription fee or microtransactions that covered 99% of the cosmetics. They bought their additional character slots, bank expansions, mercenary hero slots, maybe a few costumes, but the main focus of cosmetics was **inside** the game. People played a lot for prestige skins and could be proud of it afterwards. Then, Arenanet decided they want to change GW significantly, they'll have to work on the engine for a long time in order to do what they had in mind for the next expansion. They expanded their team and it took 4-5 years until GW2 came out. Now, the developement is claimed to be much more expensive, more people are working on it, and apparently they 'have' to charge for 99% of every new cosmetic thing that appears in the game. At the same time, the amount and pacing of the released content didn't increase, but rather decrease. While GW Nightfall was released only 6 months after Factions and covered a full story and the whole continent Elona, Path of Fire was released roughly 2 years after HoT and only covered the Crystal Desert and a part of Vabbi + a small part of a larger story that ends with a cliffhanger. And while mounts were one of the main selling points of PoF, the content, mount skins were directly pushed into the gem store (just like glider skins in HoT). Now people already discussed a lot about the replayability of PoF content, and if it wasn't possible to integrate a few mount skins as game rewards, just like it was the case in GW1. If GW2 takes too much time and effort to keep up the pace, if they have to place the majority of all future released cosmetics in the gem store, it seems like it wasn't the best decision (for me, consumer). So the best thing that could happen to me personally (as a consumer) is, Anet leaves GW2 on maintenance mode, reduces the size of their team to GW1 standards, and starts working on a smaller game again. A game with faster paced expansions which support the game instead of 1 expansion in 2 years and a huge gem store. Convenience items, character slots, bank slots, but don't put the horizontal progression in a gem store. Maybe human (-like) characters only so they don't have to adapt the armor sets to all different races. I didn't need GW2, I didn't ask for a larger game or team that costs lots of money. It was their decision. I would have supported Arenanet if they continued like GW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael.8562 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Djinn.9245 said: > > The problem is that Anet's marketing department knows exactly what gamble boxes are and what they do. Gamble boxes are, by definition, an attempt to have the customer buy more than they intend because there is little chance that they will get what they want on the first try. Therefore, putting all the skins in a gamble box was not an "oops, we were only trying to get equal love for all skins". I agree that Anet want all of their skins to have an equal chance at being purchased, but that is just unrealistic and simply not going to happen in a fair and open market. AND THEY KNEW THIS FROM THE START. > > Stores deal with this all the time. In a grocery store, you can tell which vegetable sells most because there are huge piles of them. But the store still carries small numbers of other veggies that don't sell well because they want to provide a variety. Sometimes they even have items they carry which they know will be a net loss because they want to provide variety. The answer isn't to try to force the customer to buy things that are less popular. You reduce the price of those items, and if they still don't sell well you adjust the prices of your other items to compensate. If an items doesn't sell AT ALL, you might remove it from offer and move on. > > But gamble boxes are not necessary for any business to succeed. We are used to seeing them in games but we rarely see them from businesses outside gaming. You seem to be equating an attempt at understanding a thing with endorsement or agreement, and are vociferously countering an argument that I'm not making. Whether ANET's marketing tactic is successful only time will tell. But in a "free" (not fair, the market is never fair) and open market anything goes. ANET makes their choice and consumers make theirs as you describe with the description of a grocery store - but there are no rules only fluctuations in purchasing behavior. You obviously have a lot invested in this so best of luck, I hope you get what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > Recent events on Reddit regarding a certain other publisher certainly do put things in perspective, don't they? Have you guys *seen* the economy in *that* game? Full AAA price, with loot boxes on top that literally are pay to win. A bajillion different currencies and unlocks and crafting and cards and locked characters, all screaming at you to pay money to get passed the grind. > > This really puts ArenaNet's "Here's 30 mounts have at it!" attitude into perspective. I'm not saying I agree with loot boxes in *any* form, but I sure am glad I threw my hat in with Gaille and her Krew, instead of those unbelievable kitten hats at that *other* publisher. > >So, how about some love for our chums at ArenaNet? Not everything they do is always super popular, but for goodness sake, they are at least still **human** **Being Human** 'Making Mistakes, Learning From Mistakes' 'TaKing Responsibility and Accountability' "Abide To The Truth And Honesty ' "Considerate And Thoughfulness' 'Applying Justice And Fairness' 'Does What Is Necessary' 'To Resolve Problems' 'When They Arise' 'What You Reap' 'You Shall Sow' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Tekey.7946 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > Sure, lots of people are creative. But there's a limit to what you can do alone, or in a small team. What you describe simply doesn't scale. The projects that can be done in this matter are very, very small. If you have a knack for game design you can still end up with a fun to play, simple game. But you can't end up with a MMO. These are massive projects, with mind-boggling amounts of everything. Artwork, game mechanics, internal systems, literally everything. You simply *have* to use a large team for something of this caliber. It's not even a question of time, a small team can never finish something on that scale, much less support it. Large team times long development time is your tech cost. The price you pay for being able to add new skins with relatively small amount of work, for instance. > > People were happy with GW1, which was run by a smaller team, got 3 campaigns and 1 expansion in the same time GW2 released just one single expansion. GW1 was greatly supported by the box sales (Factions released in April 2006, Nightfall: October 2006). People liked to pay for the content they got by buying the campaigns/expansion - without paying a subscription fee or microtransactions that covered 99% of the cosmetics. They bought their additional character slots, bank expansions, mercenary hero slots, maybe a few costumes, but the main focus of cosmetics was **inside** the game. People played a lot for prestige skins and could be proud of it afterwards. > > Then, Arenanet decided they want to change GW significantly, they'll have to work on the engine for a long time in order to do what they had in mind for the next expansion. They expanded their team and it took 4-5 years until GW2 came out. > Now, the developement is claimed to be much more expensive, more people are working on it, and apparently they 'have' to charge for 99% of every new cosmetic thing that appears in the game. At the same time, the amount and pacing of the released content didn't increase, but rather decrease. > > While GW Nightfall was released only 6 months after Factions and covered a full story and the whole continent Elona, Path of Fire was released roughly 2 years after HoT and only covered the Crystal Desert and a part of Vabbi + a small part of a larger story that ends with a cliffhanger. > And while mounts were one of the main selling points of PoF, the content, mount skins were directly pushed into the gem store (just like glider skins in HoT). Now people already discussed a lot about the replayability of PoF content, and if it wasn't possible to integrate a few mount skins as game rewards, just like it was the case in GW1. > > If GW2 takes too much time and effort to keep up the pace, if they have to place the majority of all future released cosmetics in the gem store, it seems like it wasn't the best decision (for me, consumer). > > So the best thing that could happen to me personally (as a consumer) is, Anet leaves GW2 on maintenance mode, reduces the size of their team to GW1 standards, and starts working on a smaller game again. A game with faster paced expansions which support the game instead of 1 expansion in 2 years and a huge gem store. Convenience items, character slots, bank slots, but don't put the horizontal progression in a gem store. > Maybe human (-like) characters only so they don't have to adapt the armor sets to all different races. Yeah and there used to be horses pulling carriages before there was cars. You are comparing apples to oranges. You were happy with GW1, it still was niche and had a fraction of the player base of GW2. GW1 was a completely different game and way way way smaller in size and complexity (from a development standpoint). GW2 is a full fledged MMO (unlike GW1 which was basically hubs with instanced zones for up to 12 players). > @Tekey.7946 said: > I didn't need GW2, I didn't ask for a larger game or team that costs lots of money. It was their decision. > I would have supported Arenanet if they continued like GW1. Good for you, what does that have to do with current economic realities and how GW2 has developed and expanded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theege.9783 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > Thank god other people pay your share of developement and upkeep costs so the game which you hopefully enjoy keeps running. Just popping in to say a lot of the arguments for this practice seem incredibly elitist, and it's really exemplified right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 > @Theege.9783 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > Thank god other people pay your share of developement and upkeep costs so the game which you hopefully enjoy keeps running. > > Just popping in to say a lot of the arguments for this practice seem incredibly elitist, and it's really exemplified right here. Stating a fact is elitist? What do you believe keeps the game running? The cash they make off of base game and expansion sales? I'll gladly turn this around in: lots of arguments showing how cheap people are seem entitled, and it's really exemplified right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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