Please make power builds more viable!

[Substance E.4852]

> @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > > > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > > > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > > > > In reality power is widely used still and people just choose to ignore it. The only place where condi behaves horribly is WvW and that's because you have a Zerg pumping out those and no amount of cleanse will save you. It's like dungeons being dead despite being as rewarding/even more rewarding than what they used to be.

> > > >

> > > > One class breaking content by exploiting a hit box glitch =/= "power is just as good guys".

> > >

> > > You can read a post above I made with actual raid global stats and conquest meta builds, the condi "dominance" is mostly poor player perception.

> >

> > "Poor player perception" is just a fancy way of saying people default to what gets the job done with the least effort.

> >

> > When raids were first released engineer was technically more dps than cranger but required substantially more effort to keep it at that dps. Not hard to see why cranger became so popular despite being not absolute top tier.

> >

> > Also this, "Disclaimer: The statistics displayed in this report are based off data available within GW2Raidar only, as such it is not a complete representation of the Guild Wars 2 raiding community. "

>

> If you have a better log central that gathers thousands of raid kills I welcome you to post it up, otherwise I'm pretty sure that's the most accurate source of info we can get.

>

> * Fractals and dungeons are dominated by power, hands down.

>

> * Conquest has an even distribution give or take.

>

> * VG, Sloth, KC, Gors, Sam dominated by power.

>

> The only real outlier I see is WvW. Rest is pretty much poor player perception as in people can't be bothered to think outside the box. I say this as a power Holo player btw.

 

1. You're supposed fractal evidence doesn't really hold up when 3/5 classes are condi and of the two power options, one is team utility and the other is meta because of the large hit box glitch.

 

2. Dominated by power across 3/9 classes. One of which again, is literally only there because of the hitbox glitch. I guess power's fine as long as you want to destroy your keyboard trying to play holo or weaver.

 

3. Pvp is a hot mess right now and to even suggest "consensus of what builds are good" equals class distribution in a game where you can double down on classes is silly. There could be 1000 "great" power builds and it won't matter when 4 people can run the same "Meta" condi build on a single team because it's incredibly powerful for the actual effort investment.

[Lunateric.3708]

Shrug, you do you. I don't really care enough to keep going back and forth on fiction. Will have to wait 3 more months for any semblance of balance anyway.

[Zalani.9827]

I adore ranger power builds, I just wish they could compete more in group content.

[Ahlen.7591]

> @Evolute.6239 said:

> The condi/power thing is really overblown in PVE. In terms of raids, VG/Sloth-ish/Trio/Escort/KC/Xera are all power favoured really, and it's not like they're bad on the other encounters. In fractals, power in general is usually flat out better for obvious burst and trash pack reasons than condi.

>

> In a golem scenario in PVE, yes condi wins out. But in reality that doesn't matter much.

>

> sPVP and WvW is a whole different issue of boon corruption and other garbage that goes way deeper than "condi beats power"

 

I think you might be playing a different game, because it's not GW2.

 

In fractals certainly power isn't favored, unless it's lowbie stuff (T1's). People need to stop meme'ing that condi can't burst, on three condi classes I run (SB, FB, Zerk) I can stack a 12k+ DoT in under 3 seconds and keep it rolling.

 

T4's aren't really hard enough (Unless CM) that you need to stack any particular thing, but if you want to blow through them condi is absolute the way to go. Bosses have a LOT of HP and bosses are all that really matter in fractals.

[AsiraasiB.7165]

Wouldn't increasing everyone's hit points solve half of the condi and power problems

[SoulPariah.2856]

> @ChrisLew.5492 said:

> A.) Resistance should be removed/ rolled into Protection (possibly with a lower value, 25% or so)

>

> B.) Raw Power damage should be raised across the board. Nothing crazy, like 5% to start, then more if needed.

>

> C.) Toughness (or another present—not addded—stat) should affect condition damage, obviously. Right now you negate it completely or you eat the stacks. That doesn’t promote balance when every encounter, especially in PVP can yo-yo like that.

>

> I think those changes would make an impact.

 

First 3 quotes are all needing similar replies - yours at least has some actual discussion where the other 2 are not only wrong but ridiculously so.

 

Anyways,

They keep saying they're going to fix the ramp so it's a little more in line the the intent of the differentiation between them, but the instant gratification guild is here and wants the game fundamentally redesigned to defend against their foe more, and also increase their power. Because that's good balance, yank hard on both levers and i'm sure it'll even out.

 

And power builds start out with 1000 less damage now right? Wait, you wanted more...........but then want to use toughness on conditions......

 

Look, it's the same stuff on repeat. It's from PVP, and you wanna drive everyone crazy with it to validate your opinion.

 

Have fun.

[Yamazuki.6073]

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > @Evolute.6239 said:

> > The condi/power thing is really overblown in PVE. In terms of raids, VG/Sloth-ish/Trio/Escort/KC/Xera are all power favoured really, and it's not like they're bad on the other encounters. In fractals, power in general is usually flat out better for obvious burst and trash pack reasons than condi.

> >

> > In a golem scenario in PVE, yes condi wins out. But in reality that doesn't matter much.

> >

> > sPVP and WvW is a whole different issue of boon corruption and other garbage that goes way deeper than "condi beats power"

>

> I think you might be playing a different game, because it's not GW2.

>

> In fractals certainly power isn't favored, unless it's lowbie stuff (T1's). People need to stop meme'ing that condi can't burst, on three condi classes I run (SB, FB, Zerk) I can stack a 12k+ DoT in under 3 seconds and keep it rolling.

>

> T4's aren't really hard enough (Unless CM) that you need to stack any particular thing, but if you want to blow through them condi is absolute the way to go. Bosses have a LOT of HP and bosses are all that really matter in fractals.

 

Power vs Condi is class/profession specific problem and not a stat problem.

[ThomasC.1056]

I agree there's an issue.

 

As ANet regularely states, condition damages are supposed to be ramping (DoT) which explains that the total damage dealt needs to be higher that power. That part makes sense. They crush against the wall when you look at how much time a fight lasts. Several seconds. If you consider that's only one power burst, and you stick to "condi should do more damage" then conditions automatically become overpowered.

 

Then it has to be looked more carefully throughout game modes :

* PvE-wise : trash mobs can be crushed with whatever build. Bigger mobs are an issue because they have an insane HP pool, and hit like brutes. So you can't afford to make the fight last too long. Hence the power creep, which eventually favors condi damage.

* PvP wise (including WvW small scale) : fights are usually very short, so it favors condi bombing, or power bursts.

 

That's rough trends, but I think that's the core idea : fights are too short. There're several ways to increase the duration of fights, so that the difference between power and conditions becomes more significant. My suggestion is : strongly revamp conditions (nerf bleed and poison, shorten burning, tweak confusion and torment so that the "punishing" feeling becomes more significant) **and remove all condi removal mechanics**. That way, a condi user will now that conditions **will** work and that it'll only take more time than landing power bursts.

 

Of course, all of this won't solve other issues like : melee power not working because of LoS, or mildly boring fights that one wants to end as quick as possible...

[Astralporing.1957]

> @Yamazuki.6073 said:

> Power vs Condi is class/profession specific problem and not a stat problem.

 

This. Do not make general adjustments on power vs condi scale. That would only either make necros unusable, or make the power weaver way too OP compared to other options. What should happen is to look at individual builds/weapons on specific classes and buff those. So, by ll means, buff power warrior (gs, axe), buff power ranger (sword, gs, and yes, longbow too), etc. But also check if there are any condi builds that are underperforming - necro's a great example as it needs a buff to both types (in PvE at least).

 

Also, remember that those buffs can't entirely depend on elite specs. Core ones need to be useful too. At least until we'll have a much bigger selection of elite specs available, that would be able to cover all the core playing styles (and more)

 

 

[ChrisLew.5492]

Power Reaper is in a nice spot for like the first time ever. And yes, class specific adjustments are probably the way to go, along with making toughness more universally useful.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @ChrisLew.5492 said:

> Power Reaper is in a nice spot for like the first time ever.

Maybe in open world. But then in open world almost anything goes. In any more demanding PvE environment it's still inferior to condi. And condi is out of meta.

 

Unless something suddenly changed that i'm not aware of. Or you're talking about PvP, where i know the relative class balance is completely different.

[takatsu.9416]

Anet on class balances recently have mentioned once again that Condi must do more overall damage over time in order for it to be an actual viable choice and that power builds are intended for big spike damage.

 

Power builds indeed produce huge spike damage in PvP game modes. Condi builds in PvP game modes stack fast and hard and so much that it seems like a big spike within a few seconds

 

In pve, Condi does most damage over time on high health pool bosses therefore is the logical choice.

 

The problem seems to be the invalidity of mechanics such as toughness and condition resist. Having high toughness should actually mitigate power damage so much so that Condi is a legitimate choice. While condition resist should be a choice as well which opens up the possibility for power damage. Right now vitality stats and health pools are almost equally a counter to power and condi. In boss mechanics there needs to be more design towards these such as periods of condition resistance where it's highly vulnerable to power damage bursts of so on.

 

I'm not sure and don't have the answers of course but something needs to be done about the corresponding mechanics of the recipient of such damage not really only reliant on nerfing or buffing classes and skills.

 

That said there are classes where they can build for high sustain in PvP but still do a lot of damage. There are classes that build glass cannon and have enough power to kind of disregard toughness. Both Condi and power can pump out damage to blow through vitality in PvP while power cannot keep up with a boss health pool. These must be narrowed more and tightened so there are actual sacrifices made

[Crystal Black.8190]

> @takatsu.9416 said:

> Anet on class balances recently have mentioned once again that Condi must do more overall damage over time in order for it to be an actual viable choice and that power builds are intended for big spike damage.

>

> Power builds indeed produce huge spike damage in PvP game modes. Condi builds in PvP game modes stack fast and hard and so much that it seems like a big spike within a few seconds

>

> In pve, Condi does most damage over time on high health pool bosses therefore is the logical choice.

>

> The problem seems to be the invalidity of mechanics such as toughness and condition resist. Having high toughness should actually mitigate power damage so much so that Condi is a legitimate choice. While condition resist should be a choice as well which opens up the possibility for power damage. Right now vitality stats and health pools are almost equally a counter to power and condi. In boss mechanics there needs to be more design towards these such as periods of condition resistance where it's highly vulnerable to power damage bursts of so on.

>

> I'm not sure and don't have the answers of course but something needs to be done about the corresponding mechanics of the recipient of such damage not really only reliant on nerfing or buffing classes and skills.

>

> That said there are classes where they can build for high sustain in PvP but still do a lot of damage. There are classes that build glass cannon and have enough power to kind of disregard toughness. Both Condi and power can pump out damage to blow through vitality in PvP while power cannot keep up with a boss health pool. These must be narrowed more and tightened so there are actual sacrifices made

 

Some burst power builds in PvP probably are only there because they removed defensive toughness amulets. And with the amount of boon removal protection isn't currently really a problem either. But vitality is still the better choice because it is helpful against all damage.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @SoulPariah.2856 said:

> > @ChrisLew.5492 said:

> > A.) Resistance should be removed/ rolled into Protection (possibly with a lower value, 25% or so)

> >

> > B.) Raw Power damage should be raised across the board. Nothing crazy, like 5% to start, then more if needed.

> >

> > C.) Toughness (or another present—not addded—stat) should affect condition damage, obviously. Right now you negate it completely or you eat the stacks. That doesn’t promote balance when every encounter, especially in PVP can yo-yo like that.

> >

> > I think those changes would make an impact.

>

> First 3 quotes are all needing similar replies - yours at least has some actual discussion where the other 2 are not only wrong but ridiculously so.

>

> Anyways,

> They keep saying they're going to fix the ramp so it's a little more in line the the intent of the differentiation between them, but the instant gratification guild is here and wants the game fundamentally redesigned to defend against their foe more, and also increase their power. Because that's good balance, yank hard on both levers and i'm sure it'll even out.

>

> And power builds start out with 1000 less damage now right? Wait, you wanted more...........but then want to use toughness on conditions......

>

> Look, it's the same stuff on repeat. It's from PVP, and you wanna drive everyone crazy with it to validate your opinion.

>

> Have fun.

 

Power builds are fine, if not even slightly OP. Condi builds are just more OP.

 

Again, the ramp up issue is a red herring. The problem is that Karl seems to have his head poorly around how conditions need to be balanced. We should not have resistance and cleansing ad nauseam the way we do now, and we should not have this persistent idea that conditions need to be stronger since their are DOT. That's folly. Instead, conditions should deal more normalized damage that would generally be below power output, but would be specialized for taking down high armor targets that power builds struggle with.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @takatsu.9416 said:

> Anet on class balances recently have mentioned once again that Condi must do more overall damage over time in order for it to be an actual viable choice and that power builds are intended for big spike damage.

>

> Power builds indeed produce huge spike damage in PvP game modes. Condi builds in PvP game modes stack fast and hard and so much that it seems like a big spike within a few seconds

>

> In pve, Condi does most damage over time on high health pool bosses therefore is the logical choice.

>

> The problem seems to be the invalidity of mechanics such as toughness and condition resist. Having high toughness should actually mitigate power damage so much so that Condi is a legitimate choice. While condition resist should be a choice as well which opens up the possibility for power damage. Right now vitality stats and health pools are almost equally a counter to power and condi. In boss mechanics there needs to be more design towards these such as periods of condition resistance where it's highly vulnerable to power damage bursts of so on.

>

> I'm not sure and don't have the answers of course but something needs to be done about the corresponding mechanics of the recipient of such damage not really only reliant on nerfing or buffing classes and skills.

>

> That said there are classes where they can build for high sustain in PvP but still do a lot of damage. There are classes that build glass cannon and have enough power to kind of disregard toughness. Both Condi and power can pump out damage to blow through vitality in PvP while power cannot keep up with a boss health pool. These must be narrowed more and tightened so there are actual sacrifices made

 

The idea that condi must do more overall damage over time to be a viable choice is faulty. It once again shows that those folks don't know what they're doing. I've said it a million times, and here it is again - conditions pierce armor, while physical damage doesn't. That makes armor the common sense balancer for physical and condition damage. We should expect physical damage to do more damage if the target has low armor, no matter how long the fight lasts. The problem is that, because they made conditions OP, they added in sources of condi removal and resistance everywhere, which breaks the game in all kinds of ways.

 

Conditions need to be toned down, dramatically in some cases. The purpose of conditions should be to bypass armor, not deal more sustained damage vs power's burst.

[Lunateric.3708]

Armor is normalized in all raid encounters and I think all fractal mobs, we have bosses like VG and Sloth where armor is actually lower than the norm. I agree with their explanation on condi having to do more damage on longer fights, otherwise you'd exclusively do power and immediately cash out on damage, it's reasonable. I say this as a current power builds player. The GotL removal and overall tweaking actually normalized DPS benchmarks quite a bit, the only big outlier still being staff power Weaver.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @Lunateric.3708 said:

>I agree with their explanation on condi having to do more damage on longer fights, otherwise you'd exclusively do power and immediately cash out on damage, it's reasonable.

Not just reasonable, that's literally what the zerker meta was all about.

 

The elephant in the room is that what's hurting power builds, more than anything, is that bosses started being designed so that it was more difficult to bypass their mechanics with sheer damage.

[pah.4931]

Anet is just wrong about condi vs. power philosophy. I know this because every MMO I have ever played didn't even have the need to differentiate... That P in DPS is the big thing there. It's an average. A per capita. A percentage. Which means the "parity" has already been done by time. Any game should ALWAYS build around having equal DPS across the board. Of course there will be slight differences, but the more equal you make the damage PER second, it doesn't matter how long the fight is.

[Arzurag.7506]

Just make toughness reduce condition-damage as well and we are fine

[SkyShroud.2865]

The dilemma between direct and dot damage is that direct damage if hit, it literally hit elsewhere dot damage can be cleanse. This lead to by product of dot damage dominating in pve because bosses don't usually cleanse. If they want to balance direct and dot damage, they need to make dot damage irremovable. Otherwise, anet will continue to stuck in the cycle of boosting cleanse/boons and dot.

[Razor.9872]

or have more bosses that have small windows to deal high amounts of damage, like keep construct.

[Crystal Black.8190]

> @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> The dilemma between direct and dot damage is that direct damage if hit, it literally hit elsewhere dot damage can be cleanse. This lead to by product of dot damage dominating in pve because bosses don't usually cleanse. If they want to balance direct and dot damage, they need to make dot damage irremovable. Otherwise, anet will continue to stuck in the cycle of boosting cleanse/boons and dot.

 

The condition time tended to be shorter like 2-5s not 30 seconds we have now on some skills. Conditions could deal their damage in a similar time to power without the need to do more damage because they in return dont care about armor, protection or weakness.

[Umut.5471]

I think they should forbid the use of DPS meters, so this meta elitisim for raid groups may go away on its own.

Those benchmarks just show condi and viper sets as meta, so players forbid you to play any other build. Like power...

For real, those addons just pumped more elitism to this game like it wasn't enough before that.

I'm happy with my full berserker reaper actually, it deals good damage with great survivability compared to any other glass cannon.

I can solo most group events, champions even legendaries without time limit or huge hp.

Gets 25 stacks of might and vulnerability easily, while it has health steal properties.

But since it's not a meta build, I guess those benchmarkers will just bully me for raid groups.

People just consider the damage as a factor because of those addons, not the survivability that's the problem imo.

[Shiyo.3578]

Condition builds are out of control. Here are some advantages they have over power builds that aren't even DPS related:

Usually free survival traits as they're placed in survival trees for maximum DPS.

Condi ranged weapons do a lot more damage than power. Condi users can actually do good damage at range, the only good ranged power weapon is basically staff.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

My DH is good, can't imagine it being more viable at this point.