Main Hand Dagger Condition

[Lucian.8235]

> @Aesa.4819 said:

> It's already behind other power weapons, and the #2 and #3 skills are utility, and because of the lack in power DPS compared to other weapons #1 is mostly also used for its utility (LF generation).

> I think adding some bleeds would be a nice way to go, so dagger can be used for both average power damage and average condition damage but good utility.

> Bleeds also fit the dagger weapon thematically, it doesn't need to only have power damage potential.

 

There's one other power weapon on Core Necro and Scourge, axe. Of course on Reaper you have GS, but, given power damage on reaper is well behind condi . . . that's another discussion. Regardless, if the Dagger is to be buffed I'd rather see its life siphon and blood magic connections strengthened on one hand, and its power damage increased as a single target (its not currently single target) high DPS alternative to the GS's aoe alternative. Because dagger is a power weapon, and its connected to blood magic, that also leads me to prefer all condi requirements be removed from the blood magic and dagger, forming and strengthening power, vitality and healing connections for the two instead. This also brings me to the Necro needing a good support offhand, which, people may argue exists, but I'd still prefer a Torch mainhand condi LF generator and a new offhand meant purely for support (because we already have a condi offhand).

 

Now, death magic and condi? That's a different discussion as well, because I'd absolutely like to see death magic improved. By that measure I'd like to see the Staff's LF gen increased and its auto damage split between power and condi, because, it's already a condi/power split weapon. I wouldn't even mind if it went full condi. Though, I'd stress the main issue is Scourge's LF dependency and LF generation issues - and restate my agreement that the Scourge needs better LF gen, I just don't think it should be via adding condi damage onto the dagger.

 

Not shooting you down. Everything you said is perfectly legitimate, if A.net went that way, added some bleeds onto the dagger, and the numbers were good, I'm sure it'd be fine. Anything can be viable and good if implemented properly, I'd just rather they not handle it in this particular manner. That's pure personal taste, I won't pretend otherwise.

[Brujeria.7536]

Dagger is in a weird spot. It's the only meele weapon, it has no burst damage skill, but a healing channel and a root. The AA is pure offense, the second skill is pure defense, and the third skill can be used both, offensive and defensive. These skills have very long cooldown as well (12 seconds and 25 seconds). I think they can easily add a condition on the AA without nerfing anything, this will benefit scourge the most and maybe this will enable hybrid builds in the future. Dagger then would profit from every stat in the game besides concentration.

[Geikamir.6329]

> @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > @Kam.4092 said:

> > > @Death.9268 said:

> > > Would be nice if they ad some poison and bleeding on the AA chain for dagger.

> >

> > Yeah, it could be a weaker Scepter auto attack chain.

> >

>

> Honestly I prefer Torment over poison, if it had to be one or the other.

 

Yeah, Torment is perfect for it. That will help when chasing down enemies with Dagger/Warhorn. It will punish them for running away more, which is definitely needed since mobility is a big issue.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Lucian.8235 said:

> > @Kaladel.1670 said:

> > > @Lucian.8235 said:

> > > The Mainhand Dagger is a Power Weapon. In the hands of core necros and scourges, it is the only one of two power weapons they can access. Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability, and turning it into a condition weapon entirely would take away the only one of two power weapons scourges and core necros can access.

> >

> > Why should weapons be condi **or** power ? Can't they be both ? Like power oriented hybrid, condi oriented hybrid, etc. ? We have the weapon stats to make it work, after all (Viper/Grieving).

>

> If a weapon is more than one, it has to be balanced with both in mind, meaning one or the other will be lesser and those interested in pure power and pure condi builds are thus effected. You have a weapon that's both condi and power . . . people feel different ways about it. Regardless, the interest here is LF gen, and adding condi to a power weapon isn't really something I have an interest in. This is, of course, just my opinion, interest in such a weapon will vary from person to person - I submit this preference as nothing more than my own opinion based on my own tastes. I'm not suggesting that it couldn't be a good and powerful tool, if Arena.net were truly really interested in making it such.

>

> > Also, I don't see why dagger would be nerfed by adding bleed to it. Even with the bleed added, necro dagger will probably still be far from being the best weapon in the game. So there is no need to nerf the power component.

> >

>

> > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > > @Lucian.8235 said:

> > > Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability,

> >

> > No, it'd be a buff. Which, by the way, could help Power-based necros/reapers, especially if Grieving becomes useful. It could help reaper use a Grieving-based build and actually do fairly well.

> >

> > Look, the issue is this: Condi necro has ONE condi mainhand weapon. All others are pure and utterly bad in PVE. There's no choice! Adding choice helps everyone.

>

> You misunderstand. I don't mean adding bleed to the dagger would nerf it. I mean, because they don't seem interested in increasing dagger damage, there's a possibility that they might nerf the power portion to make way for any condi addition. They've left it in this state for quite some time suggesting they think the dagger is fine, regardless of my own opinions. I can only assume this, of course, as the communication in regard to such things, from the devs, hasn't exactly been transparent (and fairly rare besides).

>

> That's something to consider given it's the only high damage power weapon the Necromancer will have in core Necro and Scourge, where power builds are concerned. They could, of course, make the weapon better too, but, given they haven't made it better in all this time I question whether they think the dagger is in need of buff, regardless of my own view that it does need a buff.

>

> I'd still prefer Scourges get their LF through other means, I also submit that the dagger should (in my opinion) stay a pure power weapon, and I'm under no delusion that others have to agree with me on that.

 

These are all very good insights ... whatever we may think and believe as players, the history of how Anet has approached this game can't be ignored. I'm a firm believer that if dagger were to be buffed, it would be for good reason for builds that need buffing; it's not even clear that Scourge needs a buff for LG regen, or that making dagger THE preferred weapon is the right avenue for that buff to happen.

 

Right now, a change to Nourishing Rot seems to me to be the most likely source of improving LF regen on Scourge, not a weapon buff. It's far too restrictive to be a useful trait in both weapon choice and in game aspect. A trait change maintains a meaningful strength equilibrium between legacy weapons for every spec.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Nourishing Rot would need a functionality change to be a source of life force in PvE. PvP and WvW, it will probably be fine, but it's totally worthless in PvE.

[Obtena.7952]

I think the advantage of changing Nourishing Rot's functionality is that it's not only applicable to any weapon you want to use but this trait is also obviously intended to boost LF regen on Scourge builds. In addition, functional Scourge trait changes would have a much wider range of development options than any condition on dagger ever would.

 

Just curious ... how close to constant shade spammage do we have camping dagger in Scourge with Sould reaping traits? Are we starved for LF or is it reasonble?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

If you're trying to spam all four constantly, you're starved. Pick 2 and you're probably fine with dagger, but no other mainhand.

 

Of course, there are three you would want to be spamming in PvE (Garish Pillar being the odd one out, but you still want it available).

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> I think the advantage of changing Nourishing Rot's functionality is that it's not only applicable to any weapon you want to use but this trait is also obviously intended to boost LF regen on Scourge builds. In addition, functional Scourge trait changes would have a much wider range of development options than any condition on dagger ever would.

>

> Just curious ... how close to constant shade spammage do we have camping dagger in Scourge with Sould reaping traits? Are we starved for LF or is it reasonble?

 

So you're against Dagger being condi because it won't fix the overall life force issue of scourge, but you're happy for it to rest upon a single trait? At least adding condi to dagger auto makes for more interesting game play and variety, which at the end of the day is what the game is about. Your idea just forces us into using a single trait, much like Vital Persistence did before.

[Obtena.7952]

Based on that, seems that the obvious question is why the preferred approach to buff LF regen on Scour> @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > I think the advantage of changing Nourishing Rot's functionality is that it's not only applicable to any weapon you want to use but this trait is also obviously intended to boost LF regen on Scourge builds. In addition, functional Scourge trait changes would have a much wider range of development options than any condition on dagger ever would.

> >

> > Just curious ... how close to constant shade spammage do we have camping dagger in Scourge with Sould reaping traits? Are we starved for LF or is it reasonble?

>

> So you're against Dagger being condi because it won't fix the overall life force issue of scourge, but you're happy for it to rest upon a single trait? At least adding condi to dagger auto makes for more interesting game play and variety, which at the end of the day is what the game is about. Your idea just forces us into using a single trait, much like Vital Persistence did before.

 

I think this is a simple argument to make: What is more effective in addressing a LF regen problem on Scourge? Is it a condition on a dagger or is it improving a LF regen trait? I think the answer is obvious.

 

You make it sound like the trait buff option is unique in 'forcing' players into a choice ... well, the dagger buff option does that as well. You are forced into something either way to optimize your LF regen, so that doesn't seem too compelling a reason to choose one over the other. Buffing dagger with condition makes it more interesting? I would say that buffing a Scourge trait to increase ALL weapons LF regen does the same thing for all weapons. Since we are discussing Scourge, then it seems that the Scourge trait buff is much more relevant and opens the most options for this elite spec.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> I think this is a simple argument to make: What is more effective in addressing a LF regen problem on Scourge? Is it a condition on a dagger or is it improving a LF regen trait? I think the answer is obvious.

>

> You make it sound like the trait buff option is unique in 'forcing' players into a choice ... well, the dagger buff option does that as well. You are forced into something either way to optimize your LF regen, so that doesn't seem too compelling a reason to choose one over the other. Buffing dagger with condition makes it more interesting? I would say that buffing a Scourge trait to increase ALL weapons LF regen does the same thing for all weapons. Since we are discussing Scourge, then it seems that the Scourge trait buff is much more relevant and opens the most options for this elite spec.

 

The dagger buff doesn't force people into staying on it. As it has been said, time and time again in the old forum post, sceptre would still be our main condi damage weapon whilst dagger mainhand would be used to regenerate our lifeforce when it is low, whilst not reducing our damage output by too much (as it does currently). Buffing dagger also increases variety in not just scourge, but reaper and vanilla necro builds too, whereas changing Nourishing Rot would just constrict it scourge builds. And you've yet to actually say what change you would make to Nourishing Rot to fix the scourge life force issue. Seems to me you're just trying to throw ideas out there to derail the idea of condi dagger, rather than actually improve necro or scourge.

[Obtena.7952]

The specifics of how to fix Nourishing Rot to address LF regen are not the point; almost anything can be thought of to make it better for LF regen than it is now and any reasonable player could think of a reasonable way to do it. Those discussions are purely academic.

 

I don't see the problem with buffs on dagger, I see a problem with buffs on dagger that don't address a problem, especially buffs that are questionable that don't address a problem. My big problem is the idea that you are only swapping to dagger for LF regen ... but in Scourge you are always regening LF ... there is no 'shroud' phase where LF is a life pool; you are always going to want to be on weapons that generate LF in Scourge. So you're telling me a more widely applicable Nourishing Rot buff would be bad for that ... but swapping onto a condi dagger wouldn't? I don't see it. Any condi buff on dagger is completely inconsequential to a decision to use it in a Scourge build. It's on Scourge builds because of the LF regen. Poor LF regen is the reason that other weapons are NOT going to be used on Scourge builds.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> The specifics of how to fix Nourishing Rot to address LF regen are not the point; almost anything can be thought of to make it better for LF regen than it is now and any reasonable player could think of a reasonable way to do it. Those discussions are purely academic.

>

> I don't see the problem with buffs on dagger, I see a problem with buffs on dagger that don't address a problem, especially buffs that are questionable that don't address a problem. My big problem is the idea that you are only swapping to dagger for LF regen ... but in Scourge you are always regening LF ... there is no 'shroud' phase where LF is a life pool; you are always going to want to be on weapons that generate LF in Scourge. So you're telling me a more widely applicable Nourishing Rot buff would be bad for that ... but swapping onto a condi dagger wouldn't? I don't see it. Any condi buff on dagger is completely inconsequential to a decision to use it in a Scourge build. It's on Scourge builds because of the LF regen. Poor LF regen is the reason that other weapons are NOT going to be used on Scourge builds.

 

Dagger builds life force faster than Scourge can spend it. Ergo: life force building phase.

 

Swap into Dagger when life force is getting low, then swap back out to Scepter when you are at or near max life force. Spend the 10 seconds draining life force, then back to dagger for another life force phase.

 

This works wonderfully as far as letting you maintain high Shade skill use, but the issue is that the DPS loss of swapping to dagger is greater than what the increased life force gain makes up for. And if you don't have the life force gain, you fall below Condi Reaper in damage output, bringing up the question of why you bothered with Scourge at all.

 

So, yes, there is a problem. We have a Condition damage focused-spec that requires large amounts of life force, but doesn't add any options to gain the required life force, especially in PvE where boons are simply not present to corrupt (so Nourishing Rot is totally worthless). This means that Core Necro has to provide the life force, but the only options for that are currently pure Power based and very poor for condition damage.

 

Why are we saying Dagger is the best choice for the necessary changes (because **SOMETHING** has to be changed)? It's a single, small change that neatly solves the glaring hole in the Scourge and it helps complete the weapon's already established kit.

[Obtena.7952]

So you're telling me that if a trait was changed so that it allowed all weapons reasonable access to building LF ... it still wouldn't be as good or preferred as swapping to dagger with a poor condition performance ... Got it.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> So you're telling me that if a trait was changed so that it allowed all weapons reasonable access to building LF ... it still wouldn't be as good or preferred as swapping to dagger with a poor condition performance ... Got it.

 

Only if said trait actually functioned in all game modes. Nourishing Rot doesn't and making it do so is directly against the identity and concept of the trait.

 

There's also the issue that a total rework to Nourishing Rot to be useful in PvE as well as PvP and WvW (and it would require one) still only effects Scourge. We are in a world where multiple Elite Specs exist now. Making a change to Dagger to make it an option for condition builds to use means the issue is solved forevermore and the future specs don't have to focus so hard on solving the issue yet again.

[Obtena.7952]

Obviously Nourishing Rot would need to be adjusted in the various game modes. That's not relaly a big deal; it's the same concern with every trait in the game. Changes to traits is not outside the realm of possibility. I personally don't see a problem with how the non-Scourge specs operate.

 

Reaper is more than capable of LF regen AND great condition damage with just the GS. Condi buffed dagger would do nothing for this build, unless you wanted to bleed yourself to get a cripple on #3.

 

Maybe core Necro could benefit from a swap to dagger on a Scepter condition build; that's true, but as another poster indicated, it gets back to Anet's history of the game. Core's been around a long time; if Core Condition'LF regen performance was a reason to add condition to dagger, it's likely been considered.

 

Unless dagger got a completely new refurbish and identity, it would be hard to imagine how a condition on it benefits the class in any case. A small condition buff is so inconsequential to the weapon as it is.

 

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Condition Reaper may not take it because it has Greatsword, but are you sure Condition Cultist wouldn't? How about Condition Wraith? Condition Undertaker?

 

By making a Core Necro weapon more available to condition builds, you don't have to answer the question of "how they generate sufficient life force" for every single Elite Specialization. You have an answer already, leaving more design space for other abilities. Of course, they can always introduce a new mainhand that would fit the role for that particular spec, but it really shouldn't be mandatory for them to do that.

[Obtena.7952]

So you're buff recommendation is based on future elite specs that don't exist? I don't think any reasonable person can make a discussion out of that.

 

I think it's just worth concluding that buffing dagger with a pitiful amount of condition damage is not a good answer to the question of how condition builds generate sufficient life force. It doesn't need a condition buff to do that now.

[Lahmia.2193]

Except it is a good answer. You just don't want to admit it and remain ignorant to that fact.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Yeah, it really does answer the question. Now the stats they were already building up don't go totally to waste for 50% of the fight. It's not meant to become **THE** condition damage weapon, it's meant to lessen the DPS loss when you have to inevitably swap into it for life force. Without using dagger at all right now provides the highest DPS, but not only is it not competitive amounts (very important for raids), but it also feels really bad to play that way. The bounties I tackled in the stress tests felt terrible to fight as a Scourge because I couldn't actually use my profession mechanic for the vast majority of the fight. When I swapped to a different weapon, it felt terrible because my damage went down the toilet until I could weapon swap again. No matter what, it just felt terrible in a longer fight.

 

This buff suggestion is not based on future Elite Specs, but it does benefit them regardless making it so the devs don't constantly have to reinvent the wheel for each expansion. Once you've solved a problem, why keep solving it?

[Vitali.5039]

Sure, buff Nourishing Rot.

Taimi is 87% sure that we'll deal more damage dumping Fell Beacon.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Vitali.5039 said:

> Sure, buff Nourishing Rot.

> Taimi is 87% sure that we'll deal more damage dumping Fell Beacon.

 

Yes, I knew this would occur ... few people are ever interested in having reasonable tradeoffs and choices presented to them. Unfortunately, choices are intended in MMO's and it's the hard ones that make things interesting. PIling condis on dagger dilutes these choices.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Tradeoffs only make things interesting when the baseline is sufficient. Currently, the baseline is not sufficient.

[Kinch.6490]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> Obviously Nourishing Rot would need to be adjusted in the various game modes. That's not relaly a big deal; it's the same concern with every trait in the game. Changes to traits is not outside the realm of possibility. I personally don't see a problem with how the non-Scourge specs operate.

>

> Reaper is more than capable of LF regen AND great condition damage with just the GS. Condi buffed dagger would do nothing for this build, unless you wanted to bleed yourself to get a cripple on #3.

>

> Maybe core Necro could benefit from a swap to dagger on a Scepter condition build; that's true, but as another poster indicated, it gets back to Anet's history of the game. Core's been around a long time; if Core Condition'LF regen performance was a reason to add condition to dagger, it's likely been considered.

>

 

You do realize Scourge is the first spec for Necro that is starved for LF. DS/RS both have ways to generate LF while in shroud, and for condi Reaper you only really use two abilities on a considerable CD. Power Reaper gains LF on auto to sustain shroud, but you shouldn't be camping shroud. There's a reason why the term "flashing shroud" exists.

 

It's funny that you mention GS generating LF for the Reaper, because Scourge doesn't get access to the GS. If a condi buffed dagger would do nothing for that build, then that's just dandy.

 

Necro NEEDS buffs/reworks at its core. I'm a necro main and I'd like to be able Raid on my main without being a gimp to my group. Just like before HoT, I wanted to run dungeons, but I felt like I was a gimp to the group if I did. I have alts, but that's beside the point. All professions should be desired in some way. Necro is never desired outside of WvW and sometimes PvP (I don't really follow that meta).

 

Necro's problems are beyond just dagger, but at least it's something.

 

>@Obtena.7952 said:

> Unless dagger got a completely new refurbish and identity, it would be hard to imagine how a condition on it benefits the class in any case. A small condition buff is so inconsequential to the weapon as it is.

>

 

So you admit that a small condition buff would be inconsequential to the weapon... there shouldn't be any complaints.

[Vitali.5039]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Vitali.5039 said:

> > Sure, buff Nourishing Rot.

> > Taimi is 87% sure that we'll deal more damage dumping Fell Beacon.

>

> Yes, I knew this would occur ... few people are ever interested in having reasonable tradeoffs and choices presented to them. Unfortunately, choices are intended in MMO's and it's the hard ones that make things interesting. PIling condis on dagger dilutes these choices.

 

So the tradeoff to gain the ability of casting sand sh4des ability on demand is to lower our overall dps, great choice.

 

Take a look at Curses, our best core PvE trait line:

* Minor traits can't improve survivability itself

* Master and Grandmaster Minor synergyze with Adept Minor, increasing the critical chance.

* Grandmaster Minor also give stat conversion (Precision > Condition Damage).

* Every Major trait have a useful place in different build and games area

 

And now look at Fell Beacon:

* Stat conversion (condition damage > condition duration)

* CD reduction on the Elite's Weapon

* Elite's Weapon synergyze with the damaging Grandmaster Major

 

Did you really think that improving a utility trait at the point of gaining more damage from it than from one of the best Scourge's PvE trait will be a good thing?

Don't you want to deal competitive dps picking damaging traits instead of all rounded utility ones?

To you such changes will not tunnel all the damaging builds into a single trait?

 

ps. Scourge's Life Force issues comes from try to deal competitive dps and improving Nourishing Rot without making it outdps a Fell Beacon build will not solve nothing.

pps. improving Nourishing Rot at the point of outdps Fell Beacon builds will make it broken

 

**Scourge's Grandmaster Minor consideration**: outside of life force issues i find that **Blood as Sand** will be underperforming.

**Suggestion**: make blood as sand gain effects based on the Master Major of choice

 

* Desert Empowerment - (Reduce incoming damage for each s4nd shade you have active; Damage reduced 5%)

* Sadistic Searing - (Increase condition damage for each s4nd shade you have active; Condition Damage increase 5%)

* Unending Corruption - (Increase damage for each s4nd shade you have active; Damage increase 5%)

 

Here we go, more builds.

[Horus.9685]

Ive Seen the Suggestion to Place a trait in bm but it could also Work as an Addition to the curses gm wich prologes your scepter Condis.

Like hits on non scepter weapons have a chance to inflict bleeding on Hit and it would conflict with a much used pvp trait what in Turn might Balance it out. It may have the unintended side effect of buffing cond reaper but if the reaper gm is indeed nerved this may Not be an issue.

Sorry for caps uses im on a german mobile phone.