Main Hand Dagger Condition

[Conncept.7638]

Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

 

But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Conncept.7638 said:

> Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

>

> But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

 

Greatsword would like a word with you.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Conncept.7638 said:

> Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

>

> But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

 

Greatsword deals more damage with just the auto than Dagger does. Dagger is below average on Power damage across professions (even before accounting for damage modifiers) and needs some attention.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @Conncept.7638 said:

> > Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

> >

> > But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

>

> Greatsword deals more damage with just the auto than Dagger does. Dagger is below average on Power damage across professions (even before accounting for damage modifiers) and needs some attention.

 

I don't know where that info comes from, but it's not the first time I've heard it, so I tested it myself at one point, and it isn't true, the dagger auto comes out as slightly more DPS. Though close enough that it's effectively even. If you take into account their other skills GS is higher DPS but I'd rather have dark pact than gravedigger in pretty much any situation. Skills that limit your movement during use have never had a place in GW2.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Conncept.7638 said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @Conncept.7638 said:

> > > Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

> > >

> > > But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

> >

> > Greatsword deals more damage with just the auto than Dagger does. Dagger is below average on Power damage across professions (even before accounting for damage modifiers) and needs some attention.

>

> I don't know where that info comes from, but it's not the first time I've heard it, so I tested it myself at one point, and it isn't true, the dagger auto comes out as slightly more DPS. If you take into account their other skills GS is higher DPS but I'd rather have dark pact than gravedigger in pretty much any situation. Skills that limit your movement during use have never had a place in GW2.

 

I found them to be about the same, but Greatsword auto has synergy with Deathly Chill, which puts it ahead. And then take into account Gravedigger, Nightfall for extra damage and you'll find Greatsword far outstrips Dagger as a power damage weapon. As for preference, Dark Pact is my favourite skill (in both animation and usage). But we're talking about about power damage here. And the only aspect of dagger that matters there, is auto attack. Using Life Siphon or Dark Pact are a dps loss.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Conncept.7638 said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @Conncept.7638 said:

> > > Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

> > >

> > > But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

> >

> > Greatsword deals more damage with just the auto than Dagger does. Dagger is below average on Power damage across professions (even before accounting for damage modifiers) and needs some attention.

>

> I don't know where that info comes from, but it's not the first time I've heard it, so I tested it myself at one point, and it isn't true, the dagger auto comes out as slightly more DPS. Though close enough that it's effectively even. If you take into account their other skills GS is higher DPS but I'd rather have dark pact than gravedigger in pretty much any situation. Skills that limit your movement during use have never had a place in GW2.

 

Greatsword has no skills that limit your movement. All of them can be cast on the move.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @Conncept.7638 said:

> > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > > @Conncept.7638 said:

> > > > Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

> > > >

> > > > But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

> > >

> > > Greatsword deals more damage with just the auto than Dagger does. Dagger is below average on Power damage across professions (even before accounting for damage modifiers) and needs some attention.

> >

> > I don't know where that info comes from, but it's not the first time I've heard it, so I tested it myself at one point, and it isn't true, the dagger auto comes out as slightly more DPS. Though close enough that it's effectively even. If you take into account their other skills GS is higher DPS but I'd rather have dark pact than gravedigger in pretty much any situation. Skills that limit your movement during use have never had a place in GW2.

>

> Greatsword has no skills that limit your movement. All of them can be cast on the move.

 

You are slowed during the float on gravedigger, and I think unaffected by speed boosts, that's why it misses so often against a moving target, as one can easily evade it by walking away at normal speed.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Conncept.7638 said:

 

> You are slowed during the float on gravedigger, that's why it misses so often against a moving target. And I also believe you are not affected by speed boosts during it.

 

100% false. You move at your normal speed, including speed boosts and reductions. Literally no skill in the game functions as you describe.

 

I have zero issues hitting a moving target unless they either A. are actually moving faster than me(I'm crippled, they have Swiftness, etc.) or they use a movement ability (dodge roll or movement skill).

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Conncept.7638 said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @Conncept.7638 said:

> > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > > > @Conncept.7638 said:

> > > > > Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

> > > > >

> > > > > But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

> > > >

> > > > Greatsword deals more damage with just the auto than Dagger does. Dagger is below average on Power damage across professions (even before accounting for damage modifiers) and needs some attention.

> > >

> > > I don't know where that info comes from, but it's not the first time I've heard it, so I tested it myself at one point, and it isn't true, the dagger auto comes out as slightly more DPS. Though close enough that it's effectively even. If you take into account their other skills GS is higher DPS but I'd rather have dark pact than gravedigger in pretty much any situation. Skills that limit your movement during use have never had a place in GW2.

> >

> > Greatsword has no skills that limit your movement. All of them can be cast on the move.

>

> You are slowed during the float on gravedigger, and I think unaffected bun speed boosts, that's why it misses so often against a moving target, you can easily evade it by walking at normal speed.

 

It doesn't slow you down like Guardian greatsword 2 does. It does have a pretty limited range of 170, which is actually the same as auto attack, since auto hits slightly larger than its indicated range of 130. And the large tell and cast time gives enemies plenty of time to kite it.

[Umbramare.9156]

I hope they add bleed + bleed + torment on the dagger AA so we can run sc/torch d/d.

 

If the day comes that d/d becomes meta on a scourge dps, i will be able to die as a happy man.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Kinch.6490 said:

> So you admit that a small condition buff would be inconsequential to the weapon... there shouldn't be any complaints.

 

I have a complaint ... I want Anet to spend what little time they give this class on giving it meaningful buffs, not things that have little value.

 

> @Vitali.5039 said:

> Did you really think that improving a utility trait at the point of gaining more damage from it than from one of the best Scourge's PvE trait will be a good thing?

 

No, but that just shows it's a meaningful choice you have to make as a player. I have NO problem with Anet giving us lots of meaningful choices wherever they are.

 

> @Vitali.5039 said:

> Don't you want to deal competitive dps picking damaging traits instead of all rounded utility ones?

 

I don't get what the has to do this at all. I will choose the traits that I need to make whatever build I want to work. If I want a DPS build, I'm going to choose the DPS traits. If you don't think getting more LF regen is a good choice for a DPS Scourge build, then you can sit on Beacon. Choices here

 

> @Vitali.5039 said:

> To you such changes will not tunnel all the damaging builds into a single trait?

 

By your own admission they don't .. Anet can provide meaningful choices for DPS and utility in the same trait group ... that's why I have no problem suggesting that Nourishing Rot get a LF regen buff. The idea Anet can't buff LF regen on Nourishing Rot because you would lose damage not choosing Beacon is nonsense ... choosing traits that are good for whatever build you are making is INTENDED.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Obtena, by buffing Nourishing Rot in the way you suggest, then Nourishing Rot becomes the DPS **and** sustain trait for that tier, leaving Fell Beacon with no purpose.

 

Meaningful choices only work if both choices are the best at their own thing, but Scourge being so life-force hungry without the trait means that a buffed Nourishing Rot (that works in all game modes) would just be the pick you always make. That is why nobody else is looking at a trait to solve the problem. Traits are among the only exclusive choices you make, so having one be so necessary for the class to function just means those it directly competes with don't get used.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @Conncept.7638 said:

>

> > You are slowed during the float on gravedigger, that's why it misses so often against a moving target. And I also believe you are not affected by speed boosts during it.

>

> 100% false. You move at your normal speed, including speed boosts and reductions. Literally no skill in the game functions as you describe.

>

 

You are literally wrong as someone already pointed out, and in either case there is no reason to be a figurative kitten about a perfectly honest mistake. But you are correct that gravedigger is not one of the skills with reduced movement during its channel bar. I could've swore there was a patchnote just recently where such a skill was getting a speed boost, and I thought it was gravedigger, but it couldn't have been. I wonder what I'm getting turned around here.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Obtena, by buffing Nourishing Rot in the way you suggest, then Nourishing Rot becomes the DPS **and** sustain trait for that tier, leaving Fell Beacon with no purpose.

>

> Meaningful choices only work if both choices are the best at their own thing, but Scourge being so life-force hungry without the trait means that a buffed Nourishing Rot (that works in all game modes) would just be the pick you always make. That is why nobody else is looking at a trait to solve the problem. Traits are among the only exclusive choices you make, so having one be so necessary for the class to function just means those it directly competes with don't get used.

 

Then buff it some other way. I'm not getting bogged down into a discussion about specifics for buffing Nourishing Rot; there is no reason that it can't be tailored so it doesn't become both of those things. That's the point of my suggestion.

 

I think it's funny that there is this idea that Scourge is 'LF starved' I mean, I think it's not unreasonable to believe that having limited pools of resources isn't the intention to begin with. All these arguments that dagger needs a buff because Scourge is LF starved don't make sense; at some level, Anet intends for people to run out of LF on Scourge so that their choice and timing of shade execution are meaningful. There is a constant theme here; the idea that things should should be buffed to degrade meaningful choices while playing the game. It's sad to see people actually want to give these choices up so they can mindless spam whatever skills they want.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Given that Shade skills have somewhat low cooldowns, it's clear that they are at least intended to be used with frequency, especially since Life Force is no longer being used to directly protect your health.

 

It's true, you can't spam all of them on-cooldown and expect to maintain your life force. That isn't going to happen. The problem is that Condi Scourge can't afford to use them **even at double their cooldown**

 

**That** is what we mean when we say Scourge is starved for life force. "Meaningful choice" only works when there actually **is** a choice. Condi Scourge doesn't get that option, they just don't get to use their F skills much at all.

[Obtena.7952]

Given that conditions on dagger doesn't give you more LF, the idea that we need that dagger buff for Scourge because of LF regen being 'low' is borderline ridiculous in the first place. This is why I suggested a fix for this be located in a trait; an fix that's actually effective and widely accessible, if people choose to take it. Besides, you said yourself you could spam two shade with dagger ... let me guess, your going to tell me that's not enough right?

 

See, i don't think it's all that honest to say that condi scourge, whatever that build is, can't afford to use Shades. What does that condi Scourge build look like? What makes anyone assume that this deficiency isn't unreasonable in the first place? The meaningful choice I'm talking about is the choice between one strength or the other; if Anet intended for people to not have deficiencies in things to make these hard choices, they wouldn't give you choice in the first place.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Yup. You are once again purposely being stupid.

 

Conditions on dagger auto won't increase life force from dagger. That was never even suggested. What they **will** do is make it a more viable option for condition builds to use.

 

While dagger auto will provide enough life force to spam your Shade abilities to your heart's delight, the damage loss from not being on Scepter is not made up for by the increased shade skill usage. When you're aiming for high DPS, you are currently still much better off just sitting on Scepter and using whatever Shade skills you can eke out the life force to use. This amount of damage is below Condi Reaper, FYI, so unless something drastic changes, Condition Scourge is dead on arrival.

 

If short bleeds get added to dagger auto, though, the net change in DPS over the full rotation becomes positive instead of negative. Camping dagger is still a DPS drop, but swapping between Scepter and Dagger will result in higher DPS overall. You would have to cycle between the two sets to maximize DPS because of the higher damage on Scepter and the higher life force gain on dagger.

 

We've been repeating this over and over, yet you still purposely ignore it.

[Obtena.7952]

No, I am not purposefully being stupid. I think that's an unnecessary bit of antagonism. I will use my thumbs down readily for that. I will not be deterred by petty barbs.

 

That's my dig; I don't think there is any reason to believe the dagger will need to be a more viable option for condition builds to use, in any spec. I don't think anyone has shown it's even the best way to buff dagger to be a more viable option for condition builds to use, in any spec.

 

In a game where we have meta, the idea that suggesting buffs that target more viable is just not compelling; this goes back to what someone else already said in this thread; Simply put, you aren't going to get something for nothing. There IS a game history and demonstrated dev behaviour. There IS a limited pool of resources to implement these changes.

 

I guess we can only hope this thread makes it to next week ... when people have real playing experience to flesh out if these claims are honest or not.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> No, I am not purposefully being stupid. I think that's an unnecessary bit of antagonism. I will use my thumbs down readily for that. I will not be deterred by petty barbs.

>

> That's my dig; I don't think there is any reason to believe the dagger will need to be a more viable option for condition builds to use, in any spec. I don't think anyone has shown it's even the best way to buff dagger to be a more viable option for condition builds to use, in any spec.

>

> In a game where we have meta, the idea that suggesting buffs that target more viable is just not compelling; this goes back to what someone else already said in this thread; Simply put, you aren't going to get something for nothing. There IS a game history and demonstrated dev behaviour. There IS a limited pool of resources to implement these changes.

>

> I guess we can only hope this thread makes it to next week ... when people have real playing experience to flesh out if these claims are honest or not.

 

You're just being ignorant at this point. How many times do we have to keep repeating how this simple buff is the most easy and effective way of sorting out the life force to dps issue. It was clear in the old forum and its clear here.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Want to hear a secret?

 

**DAGGER ISN'T VIABLE ON CONDITION BUILDS**

 

There, now that that secret is out, time to discredit the rest of your "points."

 

As discussed before:

 

1. Adding bleeds to dagger auto is on-theme for the weapon.

2. Adding bleeds to dagger auto completes the weapon's existing kit.

3. Adding bleeds to dagger auto gives condition builds an option for generating significant amounts of life force where there aren't tons of things around dying

4. Point 3 is necessary for raid viablity for Scourge due to how much of its damage is tied into Shade skills

5. Without high life force gain, Scourge, the Elite Specialization intended to be high Condition Damage, will fall behind Reaper for Condition Damage.

 

You say you want build variety, but you don't want anything to happen that would actually improve that. You say the "intent" is that weapon swapping should be often, but are against anything that would actually encourage that from happening. You claim a weapon's "identity" is sacred, but can be changed (except, apparently, here). Yet you ignore the fact that the weapon already wants what we are suggesting it get.

 

Some of us already have had "real playing experience" on Scourge. We've had two stress tests plus the demo weekend to try it out and on the stress tests, I, and I presume many others, pushed Scourge in as close to a raid boss scenario as we could: the Bounty bosses. Scourge works great against trash mobs, but against things that don't die fast, it struggles like mad. Raid bosses don't die quickly.

[Muchacho.2390]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> Given that conditions on dagger doesn't give you more LF, the idea that we need that dagger buff for Scourge because of LF regen being 'low' is borderline ridiculous in the first place. This is why I suggested a fix for this be located in a trait; an fix that's actually effective and widely accessible, if people choose to take it. Besides, you said yourself you could spam two shade with dagger ... let me guess, your going to tell me that's not enough right?

>

> See, i don't think it's all that honest to say that condi scourge, whatever that build is, can't afford to use kitten. What does that condi Scourge build look like? What makes anyone assume that this deficiency isn't unreasonable in the first place? The meaningful choice I'm talking about is the choice between one strength or the other; if Anet intended for people to not have deficiencies in things to make these hard choices, they wouldn't give you choice in the first place.

>

 

I agree that scourge is not a good argument for adding a damage condition to mh dagger.

 

However i still think adding a bleed to the dagger auto wouldnt be a bad idea.

 

Fact is that mh dagger isnt that strong currently, so a buff wouldnt hurt in my opinion. Of course a buff doesnt necessarily mean it has to be a damage condition but adding a bleed on the auto has some advantages. The most obvious would be the synergy with life siphon. Others are of course a dmg increase, possible hybrid build and my favorite it makes d/d less bad (which i admit is the most important thing for me... sry i have a weakness for the d/d style). An ther good thing about bleed is that it works well thematically with bloodmagic (it would also help to proc blood bond aka more synergy with bloodmagic which dagger should have).

 

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

 

> I agree that scourge is not a good argument for adding a damage condition to mh dagger.

 

Scourge on its own, probably not, but it's quite likely that future Elite Specs will be spending Life Force as an actual resource given the overall positive response to how Scourge functions. That and Robert Gee also mentioned that it's likely they use it again.

 

Making mainhand Dagger appeal to more builds ensures that they don't have to re-invent the wheel for each and every future Elite Spec because they always will have Core Necro weapons to fall back on. Now, they absolutely can do so if desired. I don't think anyone sees an issue with Reaper's high life force gain and Dagger being available, for example.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Want to hear a secret?

>

> **DAGGER ISN'T VIABLE ON CONDITION BUILDS**

 

It's not a secret. This one might be though: Dagger doesn't need to be viable on condition builds.

 

 

[Muchacho.2390]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

>

> > I agree that scourge is not a good argument for adding a damage condition to mh dagger.

>

> Scourge on its own, probably not, but it's quite likely that future Elite Specs will be spending Life Force as an actual resource given the overall positive response to how Scourge functions. That and Robert Gee also mentioned that it's likely they use it again.

>

> Making mainhand Dagger appeal to more builds ensures that they don't have to re-invent the wheel for each and every future Elite Spec because they always will have Core Necro weapons to fall back on. Now, they absolutely can do so if desired. I don't think anyone sees an issue with Reaper's high life force gain and Dagger being available, for example.

 

Well i am fine with the idea to add a damage condition to mh dagger as long as it fits thematically (which imo only bleed does currently). I just dont think that elite specs are a good argument for such a change.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Dagger specifically? No. But life force gain is something that condition builds have always struggled with. Making dagger attractive to condition builds as well as Power builds is an extremely simple solution to the life force issues, though, and in this case, also completes the existing theme and kit of the weapon.

 

Increasing build diversity, completing the theme and kit, and buffing the current builds that run it (that need buffing anyway) with one simple change? Seems like it's a good idea for a change.