Main Hand Dagger Condition

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Dagger specifically? No. But life force gain is something that condition builds have always struggled with.

 

You don't think there is a reason for that? I do. Do you think it's just a sad coincidence that condition builds struggle with LF regen? Maybe that's possibly by design?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

What, saying that the "attrition" profession should lack sustain?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> What, saying that the "attrition" profession should lack sustain?

 

You're implying that there isn't sufficient sustain as a condition build if you don't have LF regen? Not sure I believe that. I've built a fantastically sustainable build using condition damage. Perhaps you have a more specific situation you are thinking about?

[Obtena.7952]

> @Muchacho.2390 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > Given that conditions on dagger doesn't give you more LF, the idea that we need that dagger buff for Scourge because of LF regen being 'low' is borderline ridiculous in the first place. This is why I suggested a fix for this be located in a trait; an fix that's actually effective and widely accessible, if people choose to take it. Besides, you said yourself you could spam two shade with dagger ... let me guess, your going to tell me that's not enough right?

> >

> > See, i don't think it's all that honest to say that condi scourge, whatever that build is, can't afford to use kitten. What does that condi Scourge build look like? What makes anyone assume that this deficiency isn't unreasonable in the first place? The meaningful choice I'm talking about is the choice between one strength or the other; if Anet intended for people to not have deficiencies in things to make these hard choices, they wouldn't give you choice in the first place.

> >

>

> I agree that scourge is not a good argument for adding a damage condition to mh dagger.

>

> However i still think adding a bleed to the dagger auto wouldnt be a bad idea.

>

> Fact is that mh dagger isnt that strong currently, so a buff wouldnt hurt in my opinion. Of course a buff doesnt necessarily mean it has to be a damage condition but adding a bleed on the auto has some advantages. The most obvious would be the synergy with life siphon. Others are of course a dmg increase, possible hybrid build and my favorite it makes d/d less bad (which i admit is the most important thing for me... sry i have a weakness for the d/d style). An ther good thing about bleed is that it works well thematically with bloodmagic (it would also help to proc blood bond aka more synergy with bloodmagic which dagger should have).

>

>

To be fair, I think if dagger were to get any condition, it would make the most sense to add a movement deterring condition.

 

[Muchacho.2390]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Muchacho.2390 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > Given that conditions on dagger doesn't give you more LF, the idea that we need that dagger buff for Scourge because of LF regen being 'low' is borderline ridiculous in the first place. This is why I suggested a fix for this be located in a trait; an fix that's actually effective and widely accessible, if people choose to take it. Besides, you said yourself you could spam two shade with dagger ... let me guess, your going to tell me that's not enough right?

> > >

> > > See, i don't think it's all that honest to say that condi scourge, whatever that build is, can't afford to use kitten. What does that condi Scourge build look like? What makes anyone assume that this deficiency isn't unreasonable in the first place? The meaningful choice I'm talking about is the choice between one strength or the other; if Anet intended for people to not have deficiencies in things to make these hard choices, they wouldn't give you choice in the first place.

> > >

> >

> > I agree that scourge is not a good argument for adding a damage condition to mh dagger.

> >

> > However i still think adding a bleed to the dagger auto wouldnt be a bad idea.

> >

> > Fact is that mh dagger isnt that strong currently, so a buff wouldnt hurt in my opinion. Of course a buff doesnt necessarily mean it has to be a damage condition but adding a bleed on the auto has some advantages. The most obvious would be the synergy with life siphon. Others are of course a dmg increase, possible hybrid build and my favorite it makes d/d less bad (which i admit is the most important thing for me... sry i have a weakness for the d/d style). An ther good thing about bleed is that it works well thematically with bloodmagic (it would also help to proc blood bond aka more synergy with bloodmagic which dagger should have).

> >

> >

> To be fair, I think if dagger were to get any condition, it would make the most sense to add a movement deterring condition.

>

 

Well dagger already has dark pact so i doubt Anet would give it an other movemnt detering condition and bleed fits thematically to bloodmagic, so why not.

 

But i agree that something like torment shouldnt be on our dagger.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I rather doubt your build is "fantastically sustainable" unless you're talking about just running around in open world PvE. FYI, glass cannon Ele is "fantastically sustainable" in that situation. The closest you get is a Parasitic Contagion build which immedietly falls apart when used against players due to them cleansing and removing all of your healing. Also, how much of your "sustain" comes from Greatsword, Your Soul is Mine, Chilling Victory, or Blighter's Boon? Because none of those are available for any Non-reaper builds.

 

Life Force has, for the history of Necromancer up until now, been the sustain mechanic. Condition builds are terrible at generating it, but put out better offense than Power builds do. When Power Necro was strong in PvP, we didn't need babysitters because Power builds actually can generate enough life force to sustain for quite some time. Power Necro hasn't kept up with the power creep, though, and as such underperforms on actually pressuring opponents. Still sustains decently, though.

 

Condition builds, however, have always required babysitting in PvP because they die so quickly.

 

WvW, this difference is null because there are tons of things that die all the time so **any** Necro build is constantly at full life force.

 

Open world PvE, this difference is null because everything dies fast anyway.

 

Raids, the difference has thus far been null because Shroud is never getting used for defense, so even the pitiful life force gain condition builds provide is more than enough, since you are only in Shroud for a few seconds to use one or two long cooldown skills anyway.

 

None of this changes the fact that condition builds have very poor life force gain and sustain. Condition builds on Necro have never been viable if you try to wear someone down over time. They've only worked when bursting was a possibility.

 

In PvP and WvW, however, you also have the option of using Spectral Armor to provide meaningful life force. In PvE, this just doesn't do much of anything due to slow attack speeds of enemies.

[Vitali.5039]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Vitali.5039 said:

> > Don't you want to deal competitive dps picking damaging traits instead of all rounded utility ones?

>

> I don't get what the has to do this at all. I will choose the traits that I need to make whatever build I want to work. If I want a DPS build, I'm going to choose the DPS traits. If you don't think getting more LF regen is a good choice for a DPS Scourge build, then you can sit on Beacon. Choices here

 

If you have one trait that increase your damage and another trait that increase your damage at the same amount and also gives survivability you think that someone will pick the bad one? Sure, someone can do it, but will only run a joke build. Having different traits that improve different areas is good, buffing all rounded traits to perform better than dedicated trait is not.

 

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Vitali.5039 said:

> > To you such changes will not tunnel all the damaging builds into a single trait?

>

> By your own admission they don't .. Anet can provide meaningful choices for DPS and utility in the same trait group ... that's why I have no problem suggesting that Nourishing Rot get a LF regen buff. The idea Anet can't buff LF regen on Nourishing Rot because you would lose damage not choosing Beacon is nonsense ... choosing traits that are good for whatever build you are making is INTENDED.

At the moment Fell Beacon is the better trait for damage, the phrase you quoted was referred in the ipotetical case where your "choice" was useful PvE wise, as you can read in my post.

 

 

[Kinch.6490]

> @Conncept.7638 said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @Conncept.7638 said:

> > > Thematically speaking it would be really fulfilling to wield two daggers, maybe make a GM trait that swaps it from power to condi?

> > >

> > > But, did someone seriously say dagger MH is lousy power damage? It's our highest single target power damage weapon, and it cleaves so it's nothing to scoff at as AoE damage either.

> >

> > Greatsword deals more damage with just the auto than Dagger does. Dagger is below average on Power damage across professions (even before accounting for damage modifiers) and needs some attention.

>

> I don't know where that info comes from, but it's not the first time I've heard it, so I tested it myself at one point, and it isn't true, the dagger auto comes out as slightly more DPS. Though close enough that it's effectively even. If you take into account their other skills GS is higher DPS but I'd rather have dark pact than gravedigger in pretty much any situation. Skills that limit your movement during use have never had a place in GW2.

 

Wait, Gravedigger limits your movement during use?

 

EDIT: I guess this has already been discussed... I should have scrolled down first.

[Sororita.3465]

Instead of trying to completely change a power sustain weapon(that grants great amounts of life force) into a condition sustain weapon, how about petitioning that the off-hand condition weapons acquire life force generation. If the proposed changes discussed in this thread were to happen, Anet would undoubtedly nerf the power side of dagger in order to buff it with condition application, it's just the way of it. I'd rather see bigger damage coefficients added due to having to be in such close range without much mobility.

 

Off-hand dagger and torch contain no forms of life force generation. This is what we should be all complaining about, it's a big over sight that these weapons contain nothing to our core profession mechanic. Anet revisited guardian weapons to add symbols, take the same steps with the off hand weapons. Alternatively, take focus. Possible 12% life force per 15 seconds with Reaper's touch, also gives good stacks of vulnerability.

 

It's more than likely that most people wanting to play condition oriented scourge will take the Soul Reaping trait line for Dhuumfire. The same trait line contains soul marks, take it, 3% life force per mark. Staff auto also gives 4% life force. If you're looking for a weapon to apply conditions on an auto attack, pick staff. It's already our hybrid utility weapon, just add a bleed stack or two and it'll compensate for how slow it is.

 

Has everyone forgotten Feast of Corruption? Scepter attack number 3? In a raiding environment it's a given that a boss will have every condition under the sun on it. Bare minimum, 8% on a 10 second cool down, maximum? 8% + 13% = 21% life force on a 10 second cooldown.

 

Least let not forget the utilities that offer life force.

* Dessicate , 16 second cool down when traited, minimum 10% life force.

* Shadow fiend's haunt, 20 second cool down, 10% life force.

To name a few, there's plenty of ways to already generate life force outside of changing dagger to a condition weapon.

 

As a final note, scourge shade skills do not increase life force cost compared to total life force pool. In a pve/raiding environment vitality is more beneficial than toughness, as toughness causes aggro. There are more than enough skills already at the disposal of a condition scourge to out weigh the costs of abilities. Scourge will take more life force management than just build up to full and then stay in shroud until zero.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Dessicate is 10% always. Doesn't matter if you hit nobody or 5 targets, you still only get 10%.

 

Feast of Corruption caps its life force gain at 5 conditions. 13% and no more on a 10 second cooldown.

 

Staff is even more of a DPS loss than dagger and builds life force terribly slowly unless you can make use of the piercing on the autos.

 

Dagger will not "completely change" with our suggestion. I highly suggest you actually read the thread before commenting. To reiterate, the proposed change is adding some short duration bleeds to the auto attack. It will still be just as good (actually better) for Power builds as it is now.

[Sororita.3465]

I admit i overlooked Feast of Corruption cap, #justpowernecrothings.

 

No one fore saw that changing spectral grasp into an AoE pull would increase it's cooldown by such an amount, but it was...all the same. There's a pattern from Anet, when they change things, it may not always be for the betterment of those would use it already.

 

There are plenty of ways to generate and maintain high amounts of life force as a condition necro, Scourge will require knowing rotations to generate and rotations to spend your life force. A weekend and two stress tests that you were able to engage in (i did read a majority of the thread) are still not enough, apparently, for some to grasp the new way of play that comes with the Scourge trait line.

 

As i stated before, add the life force generation to the existing/incoming condition off-hands.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Those "ways" you mention generally don't work in PvE with a single target. Staff auto has nothing to pierce, Spectrals just don't trigger more than once (or twice for Walk), and Shadow Fiend is already on the proposed skill bar for raids.

 

The "new way to play" is actually incredibly easy to pick up on. The problem is that to actually use the Scourge class features, you have to give up being actually effective in longer fights. Either you run dry on life force (dropping below Condi Reaper in damage) or your damage goes down the toilet. Given we **still** don't have any desirable support for raids, we have to get our slots based on DPS alone.

 

I've already suggested in another thread about testing the build with Focus instead of offhand dagger, but it's not out of the question that offhand dagger still provides superior DPS.

[Kam.4092]

I know this will sound dumb, but I've had fun messing around with Staff in Fractals lately. It looks like it'll work well with Scourge. I'm hoping Dagger gets a Condition though.

 

I'd only ever use Staff for heavy AoE Fractals. Mainhand Dagger would always be best for single target.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Condition builds, however, have always required babysitting in PvP because they die so quickly.

 

I don't see a problem here thought ... what gives you the impression that condition builds have to be used in PVP? People are simply going to use the builds that work the best for them; remember this game is designed for optimal build solutions. If Condi builds don't work for certain people in PVP because of LF regen, then don't use them.

 

Seems to me that the answer to every objection you make is to make choices or use judgement.

 

[Lahmia.2193]

I can imagine you'd see a problem if guardian needed to be baby sat in pvp.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Lahmia.2193 said:

> I can imagine you'd see a problem if guardian needed to be baby sat in pvp.

 

That's misconstruing what was said ... condition builds are NOT the only builds Necros have access to in PVP. People that PVP use the builds that are best for them; they aren't locked into specific builds. The argument that dagger needs a condition because condition builds need to be babysat in PVP is a fallacy. I'm not even sure that's an accurate statement.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > I can imagine you'd see a problem if guardian needed to be baby sat in pvp.

>

> That's misconstruing what was said ... condition builds are NOT the only builds Necros have access to in PVP. People that PVP use the builds that are best for them; they aren't locked into specific builds. The argument that dagger needs a condition because condition builds need to be babysat in PVP is a fallacy. I'm not even sure that's an accurate statement.

 

But its true that you seem to think necro should have to have these handicaps that don't appear to exist on other professions. The original idea for condi dagger came up because of pve however. To lower the dps loss when are required to switch out to dagger to regain life force. A summary of your counter arguments to this is "because scourge should be handicapped".

[Vitali.5039]

 

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > I can imagine you'd see a problem if guardian needed to be baby sat in pvp.

>

> That's misconstruing what was said ... condition builds are NOT the only builds Necros have access to in PVP. People that PVP use the builds that are best for them; they aren't locked into specific builds. The argument that dagger needs a condition because condition builds need to be babysat in PVP is a fallacy. I'm not even sure that's an accurate statement.

 

Necro babysitting isn't exactly a condition's build exclusive and i'm not so sure that daggers will improve the survivability of necro/reaper/scourge's builds over the classic MH Scepter or Axe. It's true that MH Dagger have a better life force generation but unlike in PvE, where life force generation it's 99% for damage, in PvP it will be our sustain mechanic.. and to prevent (damage, by kiting of course) is better than cure (with the easily interruptable Life Siphon).

 

Of course someone could run MH dagger and perform with it better than with other weapons but this don't change the fact that it will not running a competitive build.

And for competitive build I don't mean _meta build_ but a performing one.

 

While a damaging condition could benefit PvE scenarios I can't really see how the change will affect performing PvP builds

[Obtena.7952]

> @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > > I can imagine you'd see a problem if guardian needed to be baby sat in pvp.

> >

> > That's misconstruing what was said ... condition builds are NOT the only builds Necros have access to in PVP. People that PVP use the builds that are best for them; they aren't locked into specific builds. The argument that dagger needs a condition because condition builds need to be babysat in PVP is a fallacy. I'm not even sure that's an accurate statement.

>

> But its true that you seem to think necro should have to have these handicaps that don't appear to exist on other professions. The original idea for condi dagger came up because of pve however. To lower the dps loss when are required to switch out to dagger to regain life force. A summary of your counter arguments to this is "because scourge should be handicapped".

 

Other professions don't have deficiencies that pock mark their builds? That's just not true. Don't pretend Necro is unique in this manner. Lots of professions have to make these hard choices in many aspects of the game.

[Lobo.1296]

Adding bleed to the AA would not break dagger at all and is a perfectly reasonable change for it. Just don't mess with the power coefficient so vanilla power necros can have a melee option.

 

I'd like to see a rework of Dark Pact personally. It's underwhelming as a weapon skill. I'd like to see it turned into a higher self-damaging nuke. Here's my suggestion:

Dark Pact: I wanted to go back to the drawing board for this. I like the self-damage skills from GW1 so I wanted to capture a little of that here. Does 10% damage to self. Immobilizes enemy and does 480 damage, if enemy dies leaves a poison field. Grants Fury to self. Increase cooldown 28s (This is a single target – medium ranged nuke attached to the dagger. Right now there isn’t a lot of danger when going against a Necro with a MH dagger. With an immobilizing nuke, and a self-damaging nuke, it adds some risk/reward to gameplay. With this skill there’s a lot more reason to equip a dagger than just LF generation.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

You're misconstruing the argument. Condition builds need more life force if they are to get away with not being babysat. Power builds don't need to be babysat, but they don't accomplish anything either, hence why they don't see much use.

 

This illustrates two different problems that are largely unrelated in how they would be addressed. Power builds are fairly self-sufficient, but ineffective. Condition builds are effective, but require loads of help to survive.

 

Literally no other class in the game has this "choice" to make.

 

So, I will say this once. If you are the super-casual Necro player who does nothing that pushes limits of the class, then butt out of a discussion about what is needed to be competitive. Condition Necro has needed more life force since launch, and Scourge amplifies the issue. Mainhand dagger also needs a DPS buff. These problems can both be solved with a single, simple change that also completes the dagger's existing kit.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> You're misconstruing the argument. Condition builds need more life force if they are to get away with not being babysat. Power builds don't need to be babysat, but they don't accomplish anything either, hence why they don't see much use.

 

I got that part ... the part I'm challenging is that this is condition builds with not enough LF in PVP is a problem in the first place and that a condi on dagger fixes that if it is indeed a real problem. i think neither of those is a problem; Necro's do not need condi builds to be successful in PVP. Increasing LF regen on a condi build SHOULD require a player to make some hard choices. The effectiveness of power builds is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

If anything, I think Scourge rectifies the issue. I can play a good condition build AND choose whatever mainhand weapon I want, including the weapon that gives me sufficient LF to take advantage of shades. You have already established we are getting enough LF to spam 2 shades with dagger on Scourge you constantly remind me you don't intend to camp dagger anyways ... so I don't see how the suggestion is fixing condition builds lacking LF. If we can already use dagger on a condition build using Scourge to get LF that you yourself admit you're not going to camp, then LF regen isn't a problem. This is the intention of the weapon swapping mechanic; Anet does want you to think when you play the game, including the competitive parts you think this is necessary for.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Sure, you can use dagger and spam shades and have less effect than I will on Scepter. More risk for less reward sounds great!

 

The issue that you keep ignoring is that right now, you get punished in longer fights for**EVER** swapping off of Scepter. Thus "swapping to gain life force" is a bad idea, no matter how necessary it seems. There's not actually a decision to be made right now because anything but "camp Scepter" is the wrong choice.

 

Or, we could encourage swapping weapons (say, by having higher overall DPS by having a life force phase) with frequency rather than punish it.

[Brujeria.7536]

You guys are feeding the troll way too much. Let's wrap things up:

 

* Dagger with a condi on the AA would be no problem in any game mode. It will be a help for every condition build in PvE, it will be a very small dps increase for power dps in any gamemode. In PvP you actually have to make a decision: Staff for long range, AOE damage and somewhat team support, or dagger for better 1v1 and self sustain. You ain't get anything for free in PvP.

* The interaction between life siphon and bleed is not good. As much as i like the concept and synergy between skill 3 and 2, the problem is, very often you will get a group condi clear, to help you out, screwing the synergy. Maybe they should increase the healing and damage by 1% per Bleeding stack up to a cap, 33% would seem like a good number.

* Eventually they could increase the self bleed from skill 3. If we see Dagger/Dagger as a weapon set that is intended to be used together the condi transfer on dagger 4 can be somewhat usefull even without corruption skills and MoC , giving more diversity.

 

**Overall it is a horrible design decision to have such huge differences in common mechanics between condition and power builds. Condition builds currently suck at building lifeforce, a crucial factor for any necromancer. Power builds suck at dealing with conditions as the most condi clears are engraved into the condi traits and weapons. Necro actually has rather few condi clears, but the ones we have are very strong.**

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Sure, you can use dagger and spam kitten and have less effect than I will on Scepter. More risk for less reward sounds great!

>

> The issue that you keep ignoring is that right now, you get punished in longer fights for**EVER** swapping off of Scepter. Thus "swapping to gain life force" is a bad idea, no matter how necessary it seems.

 

Which is exactly why it would be better to buff a trait than it would be to buff a weapon. Having to swap to get LF is just as bad as having to camp to gain LF.