If you're going to add more raids, fix elitism first

[Mea.5491]

It was a huge mistake to allow dps meters. First step: do not allow dps meters and temp ban people who use them. Second step: do not allow elitist behavior, let us report elitists and actively punish these people (warnings, temp ban, whatever). Third step: make defensive stats more useful and change things in raids (removing time limits would be a great start. Timers encourage "MORE DPS!!!" behavior).

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> Really? How do I join them? Send them telepathy that tells them I'm a good player? I mean I announced it on here verbally and look at the reaction I got. Also there is no way to show any of these people my skill because I can't even get into a raid to show them, due to elitism.

 

How do they know you are skilled? And how do YOU know you are skilled? This isn't about elitisism.

There are static groups recruiting, and there are training runs too, you can join those and impress people with your mad skillz.

[sigur.9453]

> @Mea.5491 said:

> It was a huge mistake to allow dps meters. First step: do not allow dps meters and temp ban people who use them. Second step: do not allow elitist behavior, let us report elitists and actively punish these people (warnings, temp ban, whatever). Third step: make defensive stats more useful and change things in raids (removing time limits would be a great start. Timers encourage "MORE DPS!!!" behavior).

 

totaly shortsighted

as stated in many threads before, this will only lead back to "*insert random dps class here* or gtfo*"

 

what is elitist behaviour? what is offensive? kicking a player that fails mechanics over and over again? kicking someone because the group needs another class?

sorry, but this wouldn´t work at all.

 

making defense stats more usefull would only be a shift in the meta, and people would be excluded for NOT taking defensive stats.

no offense, but not a good idea at all

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Mea.5491 said:

> It was a huge mistake to allow dps meters. First step: do not allow dps meters and temp ban people who use them. Second step: do not allow elitist behavior, let us report elitists and actively punish these people (warnings, temp ban, whatever). Third step: make defensive stats more useful and change things in raids (removing time limits would be a great start. Timers encourage "MORE DPS!!!" behavior).

 

It's the opposite.

Dps meters allow these so called "I'm skilled and I should be playing with the pro players and not in training runs" prove their worth.

They also allow non-meta builds to prove that in the right hands they can do a much better job than the meta builds.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > Really? How do I join them? Send them telepathy that tells them I'm a good player? I mean I announced it on here verbally and look at the reaction I got. Also there is no way to show any of these people my skill because I can't even get into a raid to show them, due to elitism.

>

> How do they know you are skilled? And how do YOU know you are skilled? This isn't about elitisism.

> There are static groups recruiting, and there are training runs too, you can join those and impress people with your mad skillz.

 

How do I know I'm skilled? You mean u want to know why I think I might be skilled.

 

Let's see played games for 30 yrs 7th ranked guild in NA in wow during bc. Completed all raids in wow from vanilla to cata on hardest difficulty 25 man. Veteran of ffxi in 2001-2003, was in the guild beyond the limitation, in the fight they always talk about how players passed out from battling warden for 18 hrs straight.

 

Got 35 titles done in gw1 (5 past the 30 needed for Gwamm. Did speed clears of domain of anguish in gw1 daily in guild legion of doom. Also was part of world record run of speed clear of urgoz warren. (Gw1 kurzick elite area, Still record to this day). 2X spvp legend in gw2. Have legend backpacks from spvp and wvw. Have fractal lvl100 access, also have 5 characters with full ascended, and raid spec builds from meta battle. Jumping puzzles are a joke for me and I wish they would make them harder.

 

More recently I sold extreme mode clears of bosses in ffxiv, but in that game there is autojoin and easier versions of raids, so I was able to connect with better players because of those features, without having to convince them verbally.

 

Over my life I've prob beaten 800+ games, including hard ones like dark souls, and more recently cuphead, which I find easy. And when I play games now I always start on hardest difficulty possible.

 

But yah I definitely am not sure if I'm a skilled player, can't quite be sure or confident in that area, just yet...

 

You can see however, with this much experience how psychologically convincing players to let me in a raid might be tiresome at this point, especially when there are no alternatives or options to make joining up with people a little easier.

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

Honestly, the solution is still easy to all this, and has been all along, since the game is already programmed to work this way.

 

1. Keep raids as they are, with the rewards as they are.

2. Scale down another version of raids to make them more casual to complete, like they do with the lower tier fractals. But keep the mechanics the same, and still keep some challenge in it (for instance, for Vale Guardian, remove the timer, but keep everything else the same*).

3. Leave the fancy rewards, legendary armor and achievement points for raiding in the "elite mode."

4. Scale down the rewards for "normal mode" to something similar to the way fractals works. By all means, make legendary armors impossible to get here, or so time-consuming that it's not worth it.

5. Allow people to level up their masteries related to raiding in the "normal mode."

 

If people who raid are not really elitists but just people who don't like to be lied to and have their time wasted, then they won't mind that there's a version of the story content that other players can play. That being available doesn't take anything away from their rewards and experience of the more difficult content, and it costs them nothing in time or lies. If they _still _object that it's not fair for less skilled folk to even experience a dumbed-down version of the content--then they really are elitists and the fault is with them, not with the design.

 

Additionally, a normal mode version would allow people to practice and learn the mechanics in a less forbidding environment and some people might then be able to more easily make the transition to elite raiding, thus buffing the number of players experiencing that content. Honesty is still the best policy here in terms of not lying about your experience and skill if you don't have much of one or the other, but I don't think there's anything in the universe that will stop people from lying.

 

* If this is still too difficult for people, rewards can be reduced further for an "easy mode" and some of the damage and/or mechanics can be taken out. But, personally, if the issue really is about groups requiring max dps all the time, I'd prefer to have a version that removes the timer but doesn't remove the moment-to-moment difficulty. If people still object that it's too hard at this point, then they're really just need to get good, and they can't blame the "elitists" for that.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> But yah I defiantly am not sure if I'm a skilled player, can't quite be sure or confident in that area, just yet...

>

 

Everything you posted means nothing though... it's irrelevant how you did in this and that game, it's even irrelevant how you did in other parts of Guild Wars 2.

How skilled are you running the Raids? How does anyone know how good you are in running actual Raids? There is a thing called training for a reason.

 

Let's say you got an alternative option for Raids that is easier to enter. That wouldn't help you the slightest because being good in that alternative Raid, doesn't prove you are good in the normal Raid. If that was the case then you wouldn't need to prove that you've beaten 100 CM before joining a pug run for 100 CM, but you could say "Hey guys, I beat 100 normal" and join, but in reality, you can't. The option is rather simple: join a static or a training run.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > But yah I defiantly am not sure if I'm a skilled player, can't quite be sure or confident in that area, just yet...

> >

>

> Everything you posted means nothing though... it's irrelevant how you did in this and that game, it's even irrelevant how you did in other parts of Guild Wars 2.

> How skilled are you running the Raids? How does anyone know how good you are in running actual Raids? There is a thing called training for a reason.

>

> Let's say you got an alternative option for Raids that is easier to enter. That wouldn't help you the slightest because being good in that alternative Raid, doesn't prove you are good in the normal Raid. If that was the case then you wouldn't need to prove that you've beaten 100 CM before joining a pug run for 100 CM, but you could say "Hey guys, I beat 100 normal" and join, but in reality, you can't. The option is rather simple: join a static or a training run.

 

I've beaten the hardest raid content in wow and we never did raid training lol. Our goal was to always beat the boss, never to sit around and talk about mechanics and hold each others hands lol. Your also saying that none of my experience matters... right lol. Proving my point nothing I say or do convinces ppl to let you into there raid groups Anet must do something.

 

I'd rather raid with a group of legend spvp players then dedicated raiders, sorry but they would be better at raiding, guaranteed and I have proof of that no problem.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> Your also saying that none of my experience matters... right lol. Proving my point nothing I say or do convinces ppl to let you into there raid groups Anet must do something.

>

 

There is nothing Anet can do about that. You are a bad player unless proven otherwise and you can only prove that you are good one by actually playing in a training run, or impressing that static that is recruiting with your skillz. Maybe WoW raids were trash then, or you got carried there and you want to be carried here too.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > Really? How do I join them? Send them telepathy that tells them I'm a good player? I mean I announced it on here verbally and look at the reaction I got. Also there is no way to show any of these people my skill because I can't even get into a raid to show them, due to elitism.

> >

> > How do they know you are skilled? And how do YOU know you are skilled? This isn't about elitisism.

> > There are static groups recruiting, and there are training runs too, you can join those and impress people with your mad skillz.

>

> How do I know I'm skilled? You mean u want to know why I think I might be skilled.

>

> Let's see played games for 30 yrs 7th ranked guild in NA in wow during bc. Completed all raids in wow from vanilla to cata on hardest difficulty 25 man. Veteran of ffxi in 2001-2003, was in the guild beyond the limitation, in the fight they always talk about how players passed out from battling warden for 18 hrs straight.

>

> Got 35 titles done in gw1 (5 past the 30 needed for Gwamm. Did speed clears of domain of anguish in gw1 daily in guild legion of doom. Also was part of world record run of speed clear of urgoz warren. (Gw1 kurzick elite area, Still record to this day). 2X spvp legend in gw2. Have legend backpacks from spvp and wvw. Have fractal lvl100 access, also have 5 characters with full ascended, and raid spec builds from meta battle. Jumping puzzles are a joke for me and I wish they would make them harder.

>

> More recently I sold extreme mode clears of bosses in ffxiv, but in that game there is autojoin and easier versions of raids, so I was able to connect with better players because of those features, without having to convince them verbally.

>

> Over my life I've prob beaten 800+ games, including hard ones like dark souls, and more recently cuphead, which I find easy. And when I play games now I always start on hardest difficulty possible.

>

> But yah I definitely am not sure if I'm a skilled player, can't quite be sure or confident in that area, just yet...

>

> You can see however, with this much experience how psychologically convincing players to let me in a raid might be tiresome at this point, especially when there are no alternatives or options to make joining up with people a little easier.

 

and you have put this information into how many guild recruitment threads exactly?

 

You have a very distorted and quite frankly beautifully representative opinion of how raiders and raids are viewed from an absolutely ignorant person.

 

You don't have to magically convince others to take you along (if you are a halfway decent human being), all it takes is to find a nice guild which offers practice raids. For the love of god, there is a huge practice raiding community offering help regularly on these very forums. Here have a look:

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17306/raiders-in-training-na-new-discord-community-seeking-more-trainers#latest

 

You've been asking over and over how to get started with raiding. People have told you over and over: the easiest way is find like minded individuals. In this case ideally a guild of people who are looking for new raiders. It doesn't even have to be a hardcore raiding guild (most aren't actually) and with around 20% of the community having at least 1 raid boss kill (https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights) you can't seriously expect to tell me every one of them is a mean-out-to-get-you raider. News flash, most are very friendly nice people who have put in the work to get to know the content and clear it.

[Kapax.3801]

Yes, so kind that you check with an Addon your dps and based on that see if you are or not suitable for the Raid. That is very WoW.

[Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921]

To be fair, raid by it's design is about elitism. Sorry, but it really has always been that way even in WOW. Usually it takes a couple nerfs to get a raid to a nominal level where players aren't forced to play in highly specific rolls and know mechanics at an instinctive level. My problem with the raid coming to GW2 is that toons weren't supposed to feel cookie cutter, raiding is going to do that to the game and we're already seeing it becoming a barrier to gameplay. I have no interest in raids as WOW cured me of that itch quick. They're fun with friends and absolute nightmare in PUGs, unless the group I'm in is guild related and friendly I have other content to focus on. Also raid requires new tools that's why there were soo many addons to WOW raiding. You had warning addons that let you know what ability was happening in the fight, so you could actually make a reasoned response. For some of us the minor changes in animation can start to blur while trying to watch cooldowns.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> Raids are a huge chunk of content which is not played by the majority of the player base due to elitism. Not due to difficulty but due to the psychology surrounding others who play it. Anet must do something to address exclusionary elitist attitudes before they release anymore raids, otherwise they are just making content that the majority will not play, and subsequently, will feel bitter about, when they think that the time spent developing raids, could have been better spent developing other content.

>

> I dont know what the solution is personally, perhaps an auto grouping feature, perhaps lowering raid difficulty or introducing different difficulty levels for raids so people are less exclusionary. Adding different versions of the raid that can be done in 5 man dungeon groups, or perhaps retool fights to be less about dps races or requiring specific classes w/specific abilities. The problem is not the raids themselves (or even the difficulty) but with players inability to come together and form a group. Plz anet do something.

 

No developer can "fix" elitism. It's not an issue created by the game, it's an issue created by player behaviour. Ironically enough, it's also a reaction to player behaviour.

 

Auto grouping won't help. If you're not up to the standards of the group, players will simply leave. This happens a lot in pugs already.

Different difficulty settings won't help. They would either dilute the experience and cause the content to die, turn it into the next dungeon farming, or ultimately fail, because the elitist players will simply move to the highest difficulty tier and reject players on a lower perceived skill level.

 

The whole problem stems from the idea you should be able to group with just about anyone. Why? This isn't something that happens in real life. When you just have learned to play guitar you don't ask Metallica to play with you. You don't invite FC Barcelona to play a game of soccer with you. Failing to recognize your own skill level and trying to impose yourself onto groups of higher skill is the reason why elitism exists.

 

This isn't something anyone can solve, except yourself. Consequently, there is no general solution to the problem. There WILL be elitism, always, no matter what. You just need to find a way to deal with it personally. You can either improve your skills and become part of the elitist crowd, or back off.

 

And make no mistake - if you make the effort required to be accepted from the elitists, you will become one. There are degrees, of course. But you will have seen the results from both approaches and you will prefer the elitist one. You will have less patience and less tolerance toward failures because you'll have a lot of experience and you'll see everything differently, perceive it as easy. Then you will also understand why elitism exists and why it isn't a problem.

[Neutra.6857]

Maybe it is because I play a druid, but I never really faced elitism when I was pugging, even when I had never done the encounter, just seen videos. I made sure to tell the group I had never run this boss or had never actually beaten the boss. More often then not they let me stay, and when they did not I didn't complain. Thanks to them I got a good number of first time wins against trio and gors. Could also be because the groups I joined didn't have requirements or said something like relaxed run.

[Lunarlife.5128]

The mechanics of the fight still make an effective elitist group. If you've played WoW there's generally no level of elitism anything, remotely close to how toxic GW2 is. In WoW it's usually because you don't have the kills or experience to do the boss. Which is easily fixed. You can run LFR, normal, practice rotations on dummies (that are obviously located). There's also DBM and addons that help you with mechanics and rotations. UI mods that show timers on the middle screen or weak auras with tuners are amazing. You literally have to look at your CDs, weapon swaps, mental mechanic timers, phases, boss mechanics, ignore the aoes if other players, and do your rotations correctly simultaneously. WoW does not even remotely require that.

 

Screenshot of golem dps on imgur. Link to your kill item (or even a fake link). Link legendary gear. Link gear runed meta. These are all acceptable ways of getting into a LFG group. Some groups asking for 100 LI or exp I just say I've already killed the boss multiple times this week or last week; which I have.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

>**In WoW it's usually because you don't have the kills or experience to do the boss**

 

In WoW is mostly Equip related.

It's not that players skill themselves during the weeks ( and meanwhile, maybe, bosses get nerfed ).

They obtain better equipment which incrases their DPS, healing and survavility.

 

The top guilds also try over and over the content, which requires time in adjunct of skill and coordination ( but as everything if you do it many many many times you will eventually become good at it ).

 

GW2 when the raid is out everybody has the same possibilities.

There's no equipment escalation, and due to the large amount of time the encounters can be done also with not meta builds.

[Lunarlife.5128]

> @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> >**In WoW it's usually because you don't have the kills or experience to do the boss**

>

> In WoW is mostly Equip related.

> It's not that players skill themselves during the weeks ( and meanwhile, maybe, bosses get nerfed ).

> They obtain better equipment which incrases their DPS, healing and survavility.

>

> The top guilds also try over and over the content, which requires time in adjunct of skill and coordination ( but as everything if you do it many many many times you will eventually become good at it ).

>

> GW2 when the raid is out everybody has the same possibilities.

> There's no equipment escalation, and due to the large amount of time the encounters can be done also with not meta builds.

 

That's very true on equipment. Especially if it's a heal/tank meta in gear or a dps meta (aka which role can carry).

 

Top guilds aren't the average person though. Some mythic bosses had 500-1000 wipes on them by top guilds.

 

I had about 200-300 total wipes on mythic spine of deathwing and another 50-100 on heroic (or normal and heroic if you want to use that phrasing etc). Granted they was between two separate guilds. Granted that's also playing 7 days a week with 99.8% attendance.

 

I agree they non meta builds does work. I've done Vale Guardian three different ways and there's a fourth and a fifth I still want to try. I also really want to try an enrage build on Vale where you tank the 200% extra damage. (Would be cool if it was only 50% or 100% because that's more ways to kill the boss while not making it the fastest way so it wouldn't be meta)

[Torolan.5816]

I probably already bore people to tears with this, but in my opinion a raid is a long drawn waste of time with 0 fun potential. I never wanted them in GW2 and raged hard against them.

 

But as a matter of fact I accept that the meta rules surpreme in raids, and probably for good reason. A content that requires or at least encourages meta will inescapably draw elitists as moths are drawn to a flame, and they will inescapably draw the weak willed masses into their webs. Competing a raid will require tireless training under the tutelage of sometimes psychologicaly soso people who work with the idea of having to please all the members of the raid so they can´t take the weak with them. So if you are a completionist with subpar skills on the keyboard, you´re basically screwed if you are bent on making raids and will have to pay for it in the tradition that the inept wealthy always reigned surpeme over the physically strong, smart or dexterous people through money, propaganda or goods.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> I agree they non meta builds does work. I've done Vale Guardian three different ways and there's a fourth and a fifth I still want to try. I also really want to try an enrage build on Vale where you tank the 200% extra damage. (Would be cool if it was only 50% or 100% because that's more ways to kill the boss while not making it the fastest way so it wouldn't be meta)

 

About that, doesn't a meta raid clear a boss with plenty of time left?

I mean, shouldn't this be enough for a not meta raid ( or maybe partially not meta ) to clear every fight?

 

I didn't play any raid, but i watched some videos and streamers and most of the times you happened to end the fight with 2/3 mins left.

[sigur.9453]

> @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> > I agree they non meta builds does work. I've done Vale Guardian three different ways and there's a fourth and a fifth I still want to try. I also really want to try an enrage build on Vale where you tank the 200% extra damage. (Would be cool if it was only 50% or 100% because that's more ways to kill the boss while not making it the fastest way so it wouldn't be meta)

>

> About that, doesn't a meta raid clear a boss with plenty of time left?

> I mean, shouldn't this be enough for a not meta raid ( or maybe partially not meta ) to clear every fight?

>

> I didn't play any raid, but i watched some videos and streamers and most of the times you happened to end the fight with 2/3 mins left.

 

you can,you can even solo/duo/5man bosses, but if the commander want´s meta build, you should play one. (there is a reason they want that)

if you don´t like that, don´t join the group

 

[Shirlias.8104]

> @sigur.9453 said:

> > @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> > > I agree they non meta builds does work. I've done Vale Guardian three different ways and there's a fourth and a fifth I still want to try. I also really want to try an enrage build on Vale where you tank the 200% extra damage. (Would be cool if it was only 50% or 100% because that's more ways to kill the boss while not making it the fastest way so it wouldn't be meta)

> >

> > About that, doesn't a meta raid clear a boss with plenty of time left?

> > I mean, shouldn't this be enough for a not meta raid ( or maybe partially not meta ) to clear every fight?

> >

> > I didn't play any raid, but i watched some videos and streamers and most of the times you happened to end the fight with 2/3 mins left.

>

> you can,you can even solo/duo/5man bosses, but if the commander want´s meta build, you should play one. (there is a reason they want that)

> if you don´t like that, don´t join the group

>

 

We do all agree on that point ( except some obviously ;) ).

I was talking about the possibility that a raid could achieve a kill with a rng squad ( and since i had no experience in terms of raid but some videos, i simply asked if it was possible ).

[Lunarlife.5128]

> @Shirlias.8104 said:

>

> About that, doesn't a meta raid clear a boss with plenty of time left?

> I mean, shouldn't this be enough for a not meta raid ( or maybe partially not meta ) to clear every fight?

>

> I didn't play any raid, but i watched some videos and streamers and most of the times you happened to end the fight with 2/3 mins left.

 

Meta raids clear with plenty of time. A proper one clears with a ridiculous amount of time. Vale Guardian is around 55k total dps to beat enrage. If you had 8 proper players doing 25k + 15k from Chrono and druid that's 215k dps. Granted dps could be 30-35k the Chrono could be higher but it gets the point across.

 

A non-meta 2 heal Vale guardian with a Chrono tank should be able to meet 55k. (55k-5k)/7~7.1k dps.

 

I've been in groups that survive to enrage with zero deaths then the triple damage just destroyed us. In an enrage build you would hit p4 before enrage let enrage and 1 add stay up to reset all CDs then go into p5 blazing with lots of extra heals and surival.

 

[sigur.9453]

> @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > > > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> > > > I agree they non meta builds does work. I've done Vale Guardian three different ways and there's a fourth and a fifth I still want to try. I also really want to try an enrage build on Vale where you tank the 200% extra damage. (Would be cool if it was only 50% or 100% because that's more ways to kill the boss while not making it the fastest way so it wouldn't be meta)

> > >

> > > About that, doesn't a meta raid clear a boss with plenty of time left?

> > > I mean, shouldn't this be enough for a not meta raid ( or maybe partially not meta ) to clear every fight?

> > >

> > > I didn't play any raid, but i watched some videos and streamers and most of the times you happened to end the fight with 2/3 mins left.

> >

> > you can,you can even solo/duo/5man bosses, but if the commander want´s meta build, you should play one. (there is a reason they want that)

> > if you don´t like that, don´t join the group

> >

>

> We do all agree on that point ( except some obviously ;) ).

> I was talking about the possibility that a raid could achieve a kill with a rng squad ( and since i had no experience in terms of raid but some videos, i simply asked if it was possible ).

 

oh i see

its possbile i guess, but not completly rng based, you-ll need to adjust at least a litte bit to the whole group (tank,healing, self substain,CC,..)

you would need to tick these points on a "checklist" to guarantee a "smooth-ish" run. so basicly an off meta meta

[Coconut.7082]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > But yah I defiantly am not sure if I'm a skilled player, can't quite be sure or confident in that area, just yet...

> > >

> >

> > Everything you posted means nothing though... it's irrelevant how you did in this and that game, it's even irrelevant how you did in other parts of Guild Wars 2.

> > How skilled are you running the Raids? How does anyone know how good you are in running actual Raids? There is a thing called training for a reason.

> >

> > Let's say you got an alternative option for Raids that is easier to enter. That wouldn't help you the slightest because being good in that alternative Raid, doesn't prove you are good in the normal Raid. If that was the case then you wouldn't need to prove that you've beaten 100 CM before joining a pug run for 100 CM, but you could say "Hey guys, I beat 100 normal" and join, but in reality, you can't. The option is rather simple: join a static or a training run.

>

> I've beaten the hardest raid content in wow and we never did raid training lol. Our goal was to always beat the boss, never to sit around and talk about mechanics and hold each others hands lol. Your also saying that none of my experience matters... right lol. Proving my point nothing I say or do convinces ppl to let you into there raid groups Anet must do something.

>

> I'd rather raid with a group of legend spvp players then dedicated raiders, sorry but they would be better at raiding, guaranteed and I have proof of that no problem.

 

You talk a lot, but that's all you do.

Portraying yourself as some top player who "should be among the "elitists"" but didn't get the chance...

If you are so good, and if the "Legendary PvP" players are so much better at raiding, why don't you go and prove it?

And no, your experience in other games doesn't prove anything.

[UnDeadFun.5824]

There has always been elitism in this game. It was isolated around dungeon speed clears. Where ever there are challenges, there will be people there to conquer them and surrounding that group of people there will always be a small percentage of puffy chest elitists. It is in our nature, you cannot fix that. However, Just thinking out loud here, why couldn't Anet have made Dungeons and raids in normal mode and hard mode like in GW1. They made that more or less with dungeons when they created Fractals, same dungeons repeated with increasing difficulty and challenges. This will not fix elitism but I think it will allow more room for others to learn and grow.