maxwelgm.4315 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Hundreds of posts later, Anet has still not mentioned how they plan for _10-man content_ to live up to long term! In NA it's very hard to find groups even when I make them myself. Also > @Zefiris.8297 said: > > @"Sarat Roy.1935" said: > > the bar for raids is EXTREMELY low as it is > > The bar for raids in WoW or FFXIV is this: > DO a few quests (or just buy em), gear out the character, click button, open interface, click other button. That's it. > > The bar for raids in GW2 is this: > Level crafting to maximum, farm specific gear by doing specific meta events over and over, don't be deaf (to use discord/teamspeak), be the right class, have work at the right time to be online when training runs are around, and then finally manage to get a spot. > > The bar is not "extremely low", it's probably the highest bar in any current MMO. > Seriously:The bar to raiding in GW2 is probably a bit higher as it was in classic WoW and about the same as it was in the Burning Crusade, attunements and heroics included. > > That's not inherently bad or anything, it's just how it is. > > (And yes, I can compare. I've played both FFXIV and WoW quite a bit, one for my job, the other with some friends. In their current forms, both have a much lower barrier of entry for raids. In FFXIV, for example, I could come on at any time, hit the duty finder for a tougher raid, and get into a run quickly, no need for vent, no need to worry about my class, it just worked. This also led to the average player being better at the game, as a side effect) This might be part of the reason. The "requirements" be they player or developer imposed, are only better than actual hardcore stuff like Wildstar, specially the time requirements. I don't play WoW neither FFXIV because I can't promise my group to be there for them precisely the same time every week due to life, whereas I can play all of GW2's content without worrying about when I'm doing it (up to and including Fractal challenge motes that I do regularly). Only content that I am slow pacing like a slug is Raids, not because I can't do them but because it's awfully hard to find a group outside of prime time (which is when I play). Of course this is aggravated the most because Raids are a weekly thing and "will not be turned into a farm.", which is quite funny when it's supposed to cater to hardcore players. Hardcore shouldn't mean stoic in that we are going to keep doing it without further being rewarded. I enjoy hard content but defending this kind of weekly-reset based exclusivity is just nonsense. At least the EU scene seems pretty healthy, but there _are_ accessibility problems inherent to Raids, even if they are some of the best content Anet has managed to put out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomborg.9462 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Most people who have "problems" with accessibility are those who refuse to train, refuse to make their own groups, refuse to improve or post LI chatcodes and then wonder why the group is wiping or why they got kicked. Even better, a huge number of players post chatcodes nowadays so u even get groups with more than 5 players faking LI's, those groups that wipe to the simplest mechanics and soon enough everyone ragequits. It's like everyone wants to get carried by everyone else and when u have too many players with that mindset it turns into a vicious cycle of bad groups forming and disbanding. The pug experience 1+ year ago was much,much smoother for me. People that were interested in raids were playing as best as they could getting better over time,I actually managed to pug everything, all the titles,achievements, even all w4 cm's (b4 Samarog Cm became super ez). Now everyone with real experience and skill just plays with their statics leaving all the players who want a free ride to play by themselves, which ofc has lead to the chaos and stress that pugs are atm. Yeah thats right. Raids arent stressful or really hard if done in the right environment. The only reason there are issues with joining and clearing a boss right now is that 90% of the lfg is filled with leechers. I really love raids in this game and i will continue to run them with my static, but srsly the lfg right now is a no-no until players decide to either bring the right mindset or stay away from raids completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @zoomborg.9462 said: > Most people who have "problems" with accessibility are those who refuse to train, refuse to make their own groups, refuse to improve or post LI chatcodes and then wonder why the group is wiping or why they got kicked. Even better, a huge number of players post chatcodes nowadays so u even get groups with more than 5 players faking LI's, those groups that wipe to the simplest mechanics and soon enough everyone ragequits. It's like everyone wants to get carried by everyone else and when u have too many players with that mindset it turns into a vicious cycle of bad groups forming and disbanding. > The pug experience 1+ year ago was much,much smoother for me. People that were interested in raids were playing as best as they could getting better over time,I actually managed to pug everything, all the titles,achievements, even all w4 cm's (b4 Samarog Cm became super ez). > Now everyone with real experience and skill just plays with their statics leaving all the players who want a free ride to play by themselves, which ofc has lead to the chaos and stress that pugs are atm. Yeah thats right. Raids arent stressful or really hard if done in the right environment. The only reason there are issues with joining and clearing a boss right now is that 90% of the lfg is filled with leechers. > I really love raids in this game and i will continue to run them with my static, but srsly the lfg right now is a no-no until players decide to either bring the right mindset or stay away from raids completely. Or you could explain the encounters and be helpful like a normal human being. Don't assume outstanding prior experience even with high requirements and take what you get. Even people not faking things can forget stuff. Everyone does occasionally. People do that in other content like dungeons or fractals. People do that in other MMOs, and it works. So what are you complaining about? It's your fault for expecting a group of random players to be the best players ever. They probably don't play raids that often, they can be returning players, the may have been carried and assigned the simplest roles for a long time by their guild, or really any situation real people experience. It's not their fault, it's yours. Explaining important stuff cannot take more than 2 mins, if you're OK with wasting 5 on a wipe because you're too bored to give them a reminder then don't blame them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomborg.9462 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @zoomborg.9462 said: > > Most people who have "problems" with accessibility are those who refuse to train, refuse to make their own groups, refuse to improve or post LI chatcodes and then wonder why the group is wiping or why they got kicked. Even better, a huge number of players post chatcodes nowadays so u even get groups with more than 5 players faking LI's, those groups that wipe to the simplest mechanics and soon enough everyone ragequits. It's like everyone wants to get carried by everyone else and when u have too many players with that mindset it turns into a vicious cycle of bad groups forming and disbanding. > > The pug experience 1+ year ago was much,much smoother for me. People that were interested in raids were playing as best as they could getting better over time,I actually managed to pug everything, all the titles,achievements, even all w4 cm's (b4 Samarog Cm became super ez). > > Now everyone with real experience and skill just plays with their statics leaving all the players who want a free ride to play by themselves, which ofc has lead to the chaos and stress that pugs are atm. Yeah thats right. Raids arent stressful or really hard if done in the right environment. The only reason there are issues with joining and clearing a boss right now is that 90% of the lfg is filled with leechers. > > I really love raids in this game and i will continue to run them with my static, but srsly the lfg right now is a no-no until players decide to either bring the right mindset or stay away from raids completely. > > Or you could explain the encounters and be helpful like a normal human being. Don't assume outstanding prior experience even with high requirements and take what you get. Even people not faking things can forget stuff. Everyone does occasionally. People do that in other content like dungeons or fractals. People do that in other MMOs, and it works. So what are you complaining about? It's your fault for expecting a group of random players to be the best players ever. They probably don't play raids that often, they can be returning players, the may have been carried and assigned the simplest roles for a long time by their guild, or really any situation real people experience. It's not their fault, it's yours. Explaining important stuff cannot take more than 2 mins, if you're OK with wasting 5 on a wipe because you're too bored to give them a reminder then don't blame them. Sorry but no, im not gonna sit and explain stuff on 200li pugs, it beats the purpose of joining an experienced group in the first place. They can go back to training runs for all i care, or stop faking li, kp. Im not there to hold anyone's hand just as no1 is holding mine. As i mentioned, it is why i stopped pugging completely and just stick with my static. Im not complaining about pugs here, im just stating the facts as clearly as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feothyr.6072 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @zoomborg.9462 said: > Sorry but no, im not gonna sit and explain stuff on 200li pugs, it beats the purpose of joining an experienced group in the first place. They can go back to training runs for all i care, or stop faking li, kp. Im not there to hold anyone's hand just as no1 is holding mine. I understand what you're getting at and I agree to a certain extent, but I also think it's a double-edged sword, as I think it contributes to the downfall of the raiding community in the long run. It probably all boils down to expectations. People join experienced groups expecting a smooth and fast run 100% of the time and that's foolish at best. There's a multitude of reasons why raid encounters fail and I doubt the most frequent one is people trying to leech or generally being bad at the game. Blaming these failed runs on bad players or leechers creates exactly the toxicity people have been talking about for so long. Nobody likes to be thought of as a leecher and I seriously doubt anyone joins a group with the intent to leech or get carried. Yes, these people do exist but realistically speaking they're a very very small minority. Even in an experienced group people can have a bad day, forget certain details or make any other number of mistakes; but that doesn't mean they're not contributing or trying to pull their own weight. People have been begging ArenaNet for harder content and it has been given to them in the form of raids. A significant part of what makes raids difficult is the very likely probability of failure. Don't expect other players to be 100% perfect working machines. Yes, nobody has been holding your hand but what good does that do you except boosting your own ego seperating yourself from the pesky peasants? There's nothing wrong in helping other players; in the contrary - helping other players can only be a benefit. Taking the time to help (making sure everyone is clear on their role, going through the basics of the encounter real quick and so on) increases the likelihood of success, keeps everyone up to date and prevents frustration; creating a welcoming and helpful community will encourage more players to raid which leads to shorter waits, decreases the likelihood of encountering a real leecher who doesn't give a s#*t and generally improves the experience for everyone. Helping other people takes time and not to help is easy, especially since there's no short term reward involved; but in the long run you're only hurting yourself. I'd also argue that asking to see kill proofs or LIs is basically begging to be lied to, but that's a whole other story ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrs.4831 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Zenith.7301 said: > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result. ...And then the elder dragons and Balthazar get neutered because they're balanced for the lowest common denominator as a part of the LFR experience. Serious issue with difficulty; tensionless encounters drain the tension from the *story* just as much as they drain the tension from the game. If you just had to poke Balthazar and he died (and this is how LFR operates), the entire story's a complete joke. Balthazar's actually threatening in the story because he's actually threatening in gameplay; how would neutered mechanics not completely undermine that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @maxwelgm.4315 said: > Hundreds of posts later, Anet has still not mentioned how they plan for _10-man content_ to live up to long term! I would fathom a guess they don't need to explain it. They stated they are working on new raids, from which we can infer that in their PoV raids are healthy and successful enough to warrant further development resources dedicated to developing more of them. I'm sorry if your personal experience isn't particularly good, but please refrain from making conclusions based on it. You're not seeing the whole picture, not by a long shot. May I also offer a personal advice? Try to be more social. Seek guilds, seek like-minded people. ANet can't do that for you, you have to do it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robban.1256 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 delete ----- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 I'm fine with the difficulty, I'd just love to see the option for 5 instead of 10 man. I hate ten man logistics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelgm.4315 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 A year later I personally did change my mind, raids do seem to be healthy in spite of the long interval inbetween releases. I guess nothing changed except that I overcame the "entry barrier" or whatever you want to call it. It's not as hard as it seemed to weekly clear nor pugging, and I'm not even sure I actually want to bother with currently having a static anymore since I could just pug in my spare time instead of setting busy hours for it. The concern remains though, that the mode still remains largely unpopular except to people that also raid, much unlike fractals where people eventually want to do them soon as they get in the game. With raids it looks like people either go into the game with the WoW raiding mindset and want to go straight into raiding or they go into the game resigning from even trying to raid because they expect it to be like the WoW raiding mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result. > > ...And then the elder dragons and Balthazar get neutered because they're balanced for the lowest common denominator as a part of the LFR experience. > > Serious issue with difficulty; tensionless encounters drain the tension from the *story* just as much as they drain the tension from the game. If you just had to poke Balthazar and he died (and this is how LFR operates), the entire story's a complete joke. Balthazar's actually threatening in the story because he's actually threatening in gameplay; how would neutered mechanics not completely undermine that? Balthazar is threatening? He felt like any average MMO villain and did not even pose much challenge. The magic sword in the last instance was useless, too. Beating him with that sword takes longer than my normal open world build lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferus.3165 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 robban is one of the strongest necromancers this game has to offer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result. > > > > ...And then the elder dragons and Balthazar get neutered because they're balanced for the lowest common denominator as a part of the LFR experience. > > > > Serious issue with difficulty; tensionless encounters drain the tension from the *story* just as much as they drain the tension from the game. If you just had to poke Balthazar and he died (and this is how LFR operates), the entire story's a complete joke. Balthazar's actually threatening in the story because he's actually threatening in gameplay; how would neutered mechanics not completely undermine that? > > Balthazar is threatening? He felt like any average MMO villain and did not even pose much challenge. The magic sword in the last instance was useless, too. Beating him with that sword takes longer than my normal open world build lol. By taking their quote out of context you missed the point. If any story based boss was moved to raids to appease the need for an easier grouping experience those bosses would have to be easier than they are now. If you're someone who found elder dragons or balth hard, like the person they replied to then you'd effectively be ruining the "epic feeling" of that encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result. > > > > ...And then the elder dragons and Balthazar get neutered because they're balanced for the lowest common denominator as a part of the LFR experience. > > > > Serious issue with difficulty; tensionless encounters drain the tension from the *story* just as much as they drain the tension from the game. If you just had to poke Balthazar and he died (and this is how LFR operates), the entire story's a complete joke. Balthazar's actually threatening in the story because he's actually threatening in gameplay; how would neutered mechanics not completely undermine that? > > Balthazar is threatening? He felt like any average MMO villain and did not even pose much challenge. The magic sword in the last instance was useless, too. Beating him with that sword takes longer than my normal open world build lol. I hear a lot of criticism from you. If you had the perfect world what would GW2 look like to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result. > > > > > > ...And then the elder dragons and Balthazar get neutered because they're balanced for the lowest common denominator as a part of the LFR experience. > > > > > > Serious issue with difficulty; tensionless encounters drain the tension from the *story* just as much as they drain the tension from the game. If you just had to poke Balthazar and he died (and this is how LFR operates), the entire story's a complete joke. Balthazar's actually threatening in the story because he's actually threatening in gameplay; how would neutered mechanics not completely undermine that? > > > > Balthazar is threatening? He felt like any average MMO villain and did not even pose much challenge. The magic sword in the last instance was useless, too. Beating him with that sword takes longer than my normal open world build lol. > > I hear a lot of criticism from you. If you had the perfect world what would GW2 look like to you? I'm happy with the story instances being designed for solo players but I wish that they were in general a degree harder and should be designed so that death is impactful and causes failure. Whether all story missions failed upon death, or at least had bosses reset back to 100% health if you died so you can't just death zerg them I'd be a lot happier. I realize wanted a solo experience comparable to Liadri the Concealing Dark or Turai Ossa isn't going to happen when story missions are designed to be beaten by everyone. But that's what I would be most happy with. I don't think I've ever felt better in this game than when I killed Liadri after about 50-100 attempts back in 2013 when she first came out. Still I feel like encounter design is radically improved and leagues better as time marches on. Balthazar was just unusually easy. Easier than Moredremoth's Mind. Easier than Lazarus. Easier than his dogs back in S3E5. At a bare minimum, having enemies health immediately reset upon death would be a huge improvement IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result. > > > > > > > > ...And then the elder dragons and Balthazar get neutered because they're balanced for the lowest common denominator as a part of the LFR experience. > > > > > > > > Serious issue with difficulty; tensionless encounters drain the tension from the *story* just as much as they drain the tension from the game. If you just had to poke Balthazar and he died (and this is how LFR operates), the entire story's a complete joke. Balthazar's actually threatening in the story because he's actually threatening in gameplay; how would neutered mechanics not completely undermine that? > > > > > > Balthazar is threatening? He felt like any average MMO villain and did not even pose much challenge. The magic sword in the last instance was useless, too. Beating him with that sword takes longer than my normal open world build lol. > > > > I hear a lot of criticism from you. If you had the perfect world what would GW2 look like to you? > > I'm happy with the story instances being designed for solo players but I wish that they were in general a degree harder and should be designed so that death is impactful and causes failure. Whether all story missions failed upon death, or at least had bosses reset back to 100% health if you died so you can't just death zerg them I'd be a lot happier. I realize wanted a solo experience comparable to Liadri the Concealing Dark or Turai Ossa isn't going to happen when story missions are designed to be beaten by everyone. But that's what I would be most happy with. I don't think I've ever felt better in this game than when I killed Liadri after about 50-100 attempts back in 2013 when she first came out. > > Still I feel like encounter design is radically improved and leagues better as time marches on. Balthazar was just unusually easy. Easier than Moredremoth's Mind. Easier than Lazarus. Easier than his dogs back in S3E5. > > At a bare minimum, having enemies health immediately reset upon death would be a huge improvement IMHO. Could it also be, that your skill is increasingly getting better too? Making the bosses appear easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.