Raid difficulty and challenge motes

[Blaeys.3102]

While I do still love this game (have bought and intend to play PoF a lot), I have been "voting with my wallet" as I've seen others propose doing. I haven't brought it up before now because I don't believe for a second that losing the $50 or so a month I used to spend on gems has had a real financial impact on Anet.

 

For me, it's about not wanting to personally support development in a direction I think is bad for the game (reasoning being split between poor raid direction and the utter disregard for large group activities like new guild missions). About a year and a half ago, I decided that if I wanted anything I wanted from the gem story, I would just use in game gold to purchase the gems for the foreseeable future. Again, it is more symbolic than about expecting any kind of reaction, but I think it is a valid response when you believe game direction has shifted into a destructive direction (which I believe it has).

[meeflak.9714]

> @cubed.2853 said:

> > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

>

> it's really sad that you think so...

 

Why is it sad? This was there vision for raids since the beginning. If not made to be like this, why include raids in the game at all ? The content isn't disgned to be accessible from a skill perspective for everyone, because raids demand that everyone take the time to develop the skills to complete them. I started raiding about five months ago . And I was horrible. Now I do weekly clears on multiple classes. And keep in mind I only play 10 ish hours a week. It's just a learning curve. Everything has a learning curve. If someone isn't motivated enough to care, then they aren't motivated enough to experience the content the way it was created

[Evilmanta.2635]

Throwing in my 2 cents here. Just started raiding with my guild/friends.

I've long been a fan of dungeons. I still do them. and I was sad to see them not garner any updates. Fractals are an okay addition in my mind, but they're getting a little stale. I like the release of the shattered observatory and the story arc it completes as well. I want to know more about Dessa and Arkk! But raids kind of bridge all the gaps for that.

 

I think mechanics on the raid bosses are cool. I really dislike the time limits, but that stems more from my guild and friends not really wanting to conform to meta and more about "i like my build so i want to use it". So our DPS generally tends to suffer a bit. It's one of the things keeping us from beating Vale Guardian. Though we've gotten close a few times.

 

That said, I'll echo the original post and say that challenge mote just makes it seem like a min-max issue, and less about fun/mechanics. I'm curious to see what new raid wings will show up and what new fractals come in the future.

[Shanna.4762]

Well, this sucks. Definitely don't agree with that decision, you're leaving out a lot of players from experiencing the story. I understand and fully support having really challenging versions of it, but story modes seem like they should be a thing for those who are just interested in story.

[PistolWhip.2697]

> @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

>You never forget your first raid boss kill.

 

Speak for yourself Mate, already forgotten it. It's really not that special.

[SirMoogie.9263]

> @meeflak.9714 said:

> Now I do weekly clears on multiple classes.

 

You possibly raise on of my biggest roadblocks to continuing with raids. Part of the [design intent](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/ "design intent") of raids was that they wouldn't be so limiting on what professions you had to play.

 

> Raids in Guild Wars 2 are not about waiting to have fun. You don’t need to wait for your healer to get online. Our build-customization and weapon-swapping systems allow anyone to change their build to meet a particular challenge. And while a warrior might support a group differently than an elementalist would in terms of playstyle, our systems allow you to adjust your team’s composition and strategy to overcome any challenge.

 

This design philosophy has always been in play, even [prior to Guild Wars 2's launch](http://gw2101.gtm.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/):

 

>We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the "holy trinity" of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don't like sitting around spamming "looking for healer" to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun. Instead of the traditional trinity, every Guild Wars 2 profession is self reliant--not only can they all help each other by reviving in combat, but all professions have ways to build their characters differently to make them more versatile for group play.

 

In MMORPGs I always like taking on the role of a knight/protector archetype. Guardian was an easy decision to make for me to make as my main. I also like to take on tanking/melee support in those games. Doing damage is never my principle goal when I play these games, but helping others do so while protecting them from harm and taking a beating/controlling a powerful enemy, that's my thing. When I learned GW 2 raids would introduce tanking I was enthusiastic to take on that role and fortunately I have a small, close-knit guild that let's me do this (and let's other do non-meta builds as well). We just try to work with the tools the professions have to try and make it work (e.g., , we had a condi mesmer before they had qt/metabattle builds). [1] Unfortunately, we couldn't raid that often and pulling together the numbers was difficult, so that endeavor eventually fizzled out, and of course some people blamed not following the meta. I feel it was more likely not getting the mechanics right and rather than not having the necessary tools for the encounter.

 

Either way, I'd like to continue raiding and practicing so I can help guide my guild through the encounters in the future, but sadly no one I've found will work with a guardian tank. I understand the reasons, I just don't agree that it makes the endeavor nonviable, as countless non-meta runs demonstrate with things like all guardian runs and such. The Firebrand should help things here considerably as it brings a lot to the table support wise and I'm eager to add it to my build, unlike the dragon hunter. In general, Arena Net is helping to give the various professions the tools they need so that groups can have a bit more diversity in profession make up. I just wish they'd get there quicker.

 

[1] - For the curious we routinely had something like three guardians, two mesmers, one engineer, two elementalists, one revenant, and one ranger.

 

[Rennie.6750]

> @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

>

> We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

>

> I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

 

So you're telling us that raids "need" to remain exclusively challenging, yet you fail at providing any convincing argument so I'll assume it's just personal/dev team preference, because it means that 1) you're not going to listen to a huge chunk of your playerbase (seriously, I've never seen game devs straight out refusing to adapt existing content many players have been requesting for years, future will tell if that kind of behaviour works on the long term for this game), 2) that everyone else in the game development industry is wrong and that you're right, because all of your competitors offer a casual raiding environment if they offer raids at all. And no, it's not that time consuming to remove party wipe mechanics for individual mistakes and reduce monsters health and damage significantly. Yes it does need some testing to see if this works but no, this isn't as hard as you claim it is, because once again, all of your competitors do it and they do it well.

[Lakemine.3014]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > @Crevox.5806 said:

> >

LOL no dude. You NEED training. I don't care how much you think you know about the raids. If you have never done them, and never raided and killed a boss then you need it. There is no shortcut. And its insulting to everyone here to sit here and think because you 'think' you are a skilled player and are a vet to MMO's that somehow removes that need.

> >

> > Standing in a green circle, dodging blue circles, and moving to specific sections of the arena depending on your role is baby tier compared to raids in WoW (mythic) or FFXIV (savage). Yeah, I know it's the first boss, but I also can't even get into a group for it.

>

> Those aren't the only mechanics of the fight dude. There are VG groups all the time. If you can't find a group, there is a reason for it. I get kicked from training groups for being too experienced...that's just how many groups there are.

>

> You are trying to put the cart before the horse, and the simple fact you are here trying to tell me how simple the fight is, rather than going out there and doing that is what i mean. I am not the one you need to be proving yourself to, the raid groups are. But you don't want to do that. Which is why you are here instead of raiding.

>

> EDIT: Also you claim to know the mechanics....Whats stopping you from putting your own run together? You know the mechanics...or so you claim.

 

Even if he does know the mechanics and spends 10-50 minutes explaining them to 9 other people......he can not control if the other 9 people even listen to his explanations or even learn from their mistakes. I have tried myself, and with other people leading and explaining.....2 hours later only saw phase 2 three times. :( (VG boss btw)

[PistolWhip.2697]

Raids aren't even as hard as everyone seems to project. The hardest part of Raids for me was finding 9 others to do it with.

 

Honestly, Fractals CM has some harder encounters than Raids.

 

I full support that they should instead focus their abilities on trying to make Raids more accessible, not from a difficulty standpoint but a grouping one. I know there is community run stuff, but that isn't always viable/possible, and honestly, it's the symptoms of a poor system in the game itself.

 

Though it could also be because my background is PvP main for like 4 years, so my friends list is full of PvPers, but even when at the start I tried to find a raiding guild they would have LI requirements and such, and training runs get stale.

 

Why? You get tired of constantly doing escort/VG which is all training runs do. What about the Sabetha training runs? It isn't usually nearly as easy to find groups for that.

 

It creates a frustrating vortex for players like myself or a few other posters here, where you know you can play well enough, because no challenge in PvE (unless you self impose it like a Solo) is gonna be as intensive as higher tier PvP and let's be honest raids really aren't that difficult, and you have the right gear, but you have to arduously dredge through 85 LI worth of boring escort runs just to prove you aren't braindead. They should add a solo mode or something, where if you finish it with the mechanics focused on real raid mechanics, it basically certifies you as ready to raid each encounter.

 

 

Instead of difficulty tiers I support the idea one poster made where it's an empty instance you can enter which is in the story 'cleared by prior mercenaries' so you can read the lore texts etc if you're into that.

[Lakemine.3014]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> I disagree! Let the raiders enjoy their challenging content. PVP, WVW, Raids, Fractals should not be modified just to shelter the casual player IMHO. Different activities for different tastes. Can't have them all!

>

> -Signed, someone who has never done a raid.

 

True, I agree.....to a point. In pvp and wvw, you can still get the same rewards (mostly) as the elite players in those game modes, just takes longer. Fractals, newb casuals who stink at any rotation can STILL get to the storylines in them by just doing t1 fractals, besides t1s do not get the same rewards ta t4 and CMs. Why can't raids be the same?

[Rennie.6750]

> @PistolWhip.2697 said:

> Raids aren't even as hard as everyone seems to project. The hardest part of Raids for me was finding 9 others to do it with.

>

> Honestly, Fractals CM has some harder encounters than Raids.

>

> I full support that they should instead focus their abilities on trying to make Raids more accessible, not from a difficulty standpoint but a grouping one. I know there is community run stuff, but that isn't always viable/possible, and honestly, it's the symptoms of a poor system in the game itself.

 

And finding 9 players you want to play with regularly. That's why I don't do raids at all. I do have a raid/hardcore background, I just can't stand the atmosphere in raiding guilds anymore.

 

Also, Anet is clearly above making an industry standard group-finder for their game. I would make everyone's life so much better instead of the current shitty job board but no let's continue supporting outdated systems that promote toxicity and lead to such complaints. If there was a group finder and no job board I'm sure many people would simply start practicing bosses slowly but surely or just queue for the experience and see how it is in reality.

[Lakemine.3014]

> @Fatalyz.7168 said:

> > @Crevox.5806 said:

> > ....This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

>

> I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids. Other games have at least a gear score, so you at least know that that person was invested enough to gear up (I would assume, I didn't play those games). This game, you can have random people showing up in whatever they happen to have (ex - wearing soldiers stats while trying to fill a dps role, or wearing rare/exotics of differing stats). The only way groups have of determining someone's willingness to invest, is in the number of LI that others have accrued (or any other arbitrary means, like the AP requirements in prev dungeon running days). Whether right or wrong, it is the method that the community adopted, to at least filter out those that were not invested.

>

> Something to consider about training runs, they can end up being like auditions. The reason for this is because a lot of the experienced community gives back by helping to run these. You do a training run, even if it gets nowhere, you can still get noticed and invited to a guild. I understand if you don't want to do them, I refused to do them myself, but it took me a much longer time to get into raiding, than it had to.

 

I understand what your saying, and for investing into harder content, yes. But, for example, in SWTOR (Star Wars: The Old Republic) they have 3 tiers of difficulty for raids, Story Mode (SM), Veteran Mode (VT) (former Hard Mode HM), and Master Mode (MM) (former Nightmare NIM). The story modes have min req gear ratings, but they are not high, plus they have daily rotating group finder raids, that give a bolster up to the avg gear rating for that raid. So people who might be a bit under geared, or who don't have time to regrind gear can still experience the storyline, for all the raids and on every character. Now VT? Also a gear rating, but no bolster, better rewards, extra mechanics, but still the same storyline. And MM is just worse. Imo, the "normal" of raids in GW2, is the VT mode from SWTOR, it gates people and prevents them from seeing the storyline. But SM does NOT give the same rewards as VT. You want those rewards, go gear up and learn the fights in VT. But if you just want to do the storyline and get some basic rewards, you still have easy story mode to do. Just wish Anet would do the same thing. ie: easier raids so people can see the storyline, but less or next to no rewards, unless they do it normally or in CM.

[Rennie.6750]

> @Lakemine.3014 said:

> > @Fatalyz.7168 said:

> > > @Crevox.5806 said:

> > > ....This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

> >

> > I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids. Other games have at least a gear score, so you at least know that that person was invested enough to gear up (I would assume, I didn't play those games). This game, you can have random people showing up in whatever they happen to have (ex - wearing soldiers stats while trying to fill a dps role, or wearing rare/exotics of differing stats). The only way groups have of determining someone's willingness to invest, is in the number of LI that others have accrued (or any other arbitrary means, like the AP requirements in prev dungeon running days). Whether right or wrong, it is the method that the community adopted, to at least filter out those that were not invested.

> >

> > Something to consider about training runs, they can end up being like auditions. The reason for this is because a lot of the experienced community gives back by helping to run these. You do a training run, even if it gets nowhere, you can still get noticed and invited to a guild. I understand if you don't want to do them, I refused to do them myself, but it took me a much longer time to get into raiding, than it had to.

>

> I understand what your saying, and for investing into harder content, yes. But, for example, in SWTOR (Star Wars: The Old Republic) they have 3 tiers of difficulty for raids, Story Mode (SM), Veteran Mode (VT) (former Hard Mode HM), and Master Mode (MM) (former Nightmare NIM). The story modes have min req gear ratings, but they are not high, plus they have daily rotating group finder raids, that give a bolster up to the avg gear rating for that raid. So people who might be a bit under geared, or who don't have time to regrind gear can still experience the storyline, for all the raids and on every character. Now VT? Also a gear rating, but no bolster, better rewards, extra mechanics, but still the same storyline. And MM is just worse. Imo, the "normal" of raids in GW2, is the VT mode from SWTOR, it gates people and prevents them from seeing the storyline. But SM does NOT give the same rewards as VT. You want those rewards, go gear up and learn the fights in VT. But if you just want to do the storyline and get some basic rewards, you still have easy story mode to do. Just wish Anet would do the same thing. ie: easier raids so people can see the storyline, but less or next to no rewards, unless they do it normally or in CM.

 

Lol why does everyone care so much about what kind of gear casual players have access to? First if it's not rewarding then you'll get the same complaints then having good gear more accessible gives a better baseline to work on the next expansion as the devs don't have to care about wildly varying character power and design everything around a mix of greens and yellows. Just hand out exotics with an awesome skin like candy and have a rare chance at ascendant, everyone will be happy.

[Lakemine.3014]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @SirMoogie.9263 said:

> > > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > >

> > > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

> >

> > The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

> >

> >

>

> The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

 

So should they remove t1 and t2 frcatals because its easy compared to t3 and t4 and CMs? There is a reason those tiers work, it lets people learn and train to get into the higher tiers. Plus, I know people who love fractals......but only t1, because they don't want to go into something harder, but they love the 5 man instanced content and the storylines there. Me? PFL 100, Nightmare CM done, soon to be daily farm and working on learning SO CM. But I still do t1s with friends who stink compared to me. Why can't raids be the same?

[Lakemine.3014]

> @SkullProX.7083 said:

> > @Fatalyz.7168 said:

> > > @SirMoogie.9263 said:

> > > > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > > >

> > > > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

> > >

> > > The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

> >

> > At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

>

> And what's better, a not working system with more content, or a working system with less content?

>

 

I agree with the latter. Also I offset "less content" with playing multiple games, so I'm never burning through content with 4 days of it being released and now I'm bored and complaining this game doesn't release content fast enough. I want working systems over new content.

[meeflak.9714]

Mistake post

/15char

[meeflak.9714]

Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

 

 

Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

 

Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

 

Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

 

Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

 

No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

 

 

Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

[Lakemine.3014]

> @"Badby Myself.4759" said:

> I just want to leave this thought here.....

> Raids should not be for everyone..... just as PvP is not for everyone...WvW is not for everyone...and yes...PvE is not for everyone. I like that I can raid with a group of friends or join a group from the LFG. Just as I could PvP with friends or just randomly join and the same goes for all game types. Why should raids be changed? Because wvw people want to take their wvw builds in to raids and fail? (Yes I have seen this) Because people want to take their PvE "Bear Bow" in to raids and wonder why 1) it's not dying or 2) why am I dead? (I have witnessed this was well).

>

> Not every game type is for everyone and I like that people that play can choose to do them all or pick what they love best about it. If you are seriously interested in learning/doing raids you will find a way.... I did this a little over a year ago and I am currently working on the last legendary armor set. If all you want is to complain about it being hard...remember....there are other parts of the game you can play that are not that hard.

>

> Someone stated that it should be easier so that others can get in there and do the story and map...... there is no story....no mapping .....it does not count towards map completion. Another comment i read about adding a difficulty level to it where beginners could get a 33% damage increase.... if it was that easy to get legendary insights everyone would do it that way. If it is the legendary armor you are looking for ..... WvW has a set much easier to get all you have to do is ....play WvW .

>

> Again... raids should be left alone.... Not every game type is for every one.....

 

I agree, but just because I have been spending the last 8 months to gear up another character so I can even START to do raids, is kinda stupid. But.....I am taking the initiative and working on it. What is hate is the gating process to even get IN is so high. It being high for better and harder content rewards is fine, but the basic mode gate being high? That's what I find stupid. Also, for the easier modes people are asking for (myself also), there would be next to no rewards, and NO LIs. The reward is learning the mechanics of the fight without stressing of the enrage timers or having a 100% perfect rotation WHILE learning the fights, and seeing the storyline. That's it, that's the reward for easy mode. You want LIs, learn the fights in easy mode, learn your rotation and THEN go do it in normal mode and get the rewards. Doesn't seem that bad, and its a win/win for people. Lock the rewards behind challenging group content, but also letting newbs see the storyline and mechanics, and hopefully if they like it and want legendary armor, move into the harder ones and learn those.........huh.......more people doing content, making it easier to find groups.......odd.........

[Rennie.6750]

> @meeflak.9714 said:

> Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

>

>

> Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

>

> Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

>

> Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

>

> Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

>

> No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

>

>

> Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

 

Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

 

The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones.

[meeflak.9714]

> @Rennie.6750 said:

> > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

> >

> >

> > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

> >

> > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

> >

> > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

> >

> > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

> >

> > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

> >

> >

> > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

>

> Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

>

> The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

 

*No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

 

Edit : to say I'm serious . If you want to play it then you can. If you don't then don't. Everyone has the ability to play it. If you want to complain about not playing go right ahead. But don't be mad at anet for your decisions

[Rennie.6750]

> @meeflak.9714 said:

> > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

> > >

> > >

> > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

> > >

> > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

> > >

> > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

> > >

> > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

> > >

> > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

> > >

> > >

> > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

> >

> > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

> >

> > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

>

> *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

 

Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Rennie.6750 said:

> > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

> >

> >

> > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

> >

> > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

> >

> > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

> >

> > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

> >

> > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

> >

> >

> > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

>

> Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

>

> The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones.

 

I would love to see where those stats were pulled from.

 

Since Anet has ever released a number but have stated multiple times that Their Raiding Population is a lot larger than expected.

 

Anet has released their Design intent with reasons to support it multiple times for Raids, people can disagree with it but fabricating numbers is the wrong way to go about it.

[meeflak.9714]

> @Rennie.6750 said:

> > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

> > > >

> > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

> > > >

> > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

> > > >

> > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

> > > >

> > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

> > >

> > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

> > >

> > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

> >

> > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

>

> Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

 

> @Rennie.6750 said:

> > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

> > > >

> > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

> > > >

> > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

> > > >

> > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

> > > >

> > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

> > >

> > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

> > >

> > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

> >

> > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

>

> Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

 

 

Please explain to me how any of us have payed for the last three wings of raid content? Because arenanet takes some of thier funding and puts it into raids ?well yeah I guess then your right , somewhere along the line a non raider's dollar has gone into raids. Just as I'm sure my money has gone to WvW. And I Never touch WvW. I'm not complaining that I don't want to play WvW the way arena net made it, the same way you're complaining about not wanting to play raids in the way arenanet made them. And you should read my commentsore clearly, I saidall people have to do to raid is to play them. Hoe arenanet made them.

[Rennie.6750]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

> > >

> > >

> > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

> > >

> > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

> > >

> > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

> > >

> > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

> > >

> > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

> > >

> > >

> > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

> >

> > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

> >

> > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones.

>

> I would love to see where those stats were pulled from.

>

> Since Anet has ever released a number but have stated multiple times that Their Raiding Population is a lot larger than expected.

>

> Anet has released their Design intent with reasons to support it multiple times for Raids, people can disagree with it but fabricating numbers is the wrong way to go about it.

 

Of course they're not open about their metrics because it would only fuel the fire. On the other hand blizzard devs have been more than open to sharing such things and I very much doubt Anet discovered the secret magic of having more players playing hardcore content.

[Lakemine.3014]

> @"Sarat Roy.1935" said:

> > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > > @"Sarat Roy.1935" said:

> > > the bar for raids is EXTREMELY low as it is

> >

> > The bar for raids in WoW or FFXIV is this:

> > DO a few quests (or just buy em), gear out the character, click button, open interface, click other button. That's it.

> >

> > The bar for raids in GW2 is this:

> > Level crafting to maximum, farm specific gear by doing specific meta events over and over, don't be deaf (to use discord/teamspeak), be the right class, have work at the right time to be online when training runs are around, and then finally manage to get a spot.

> >

> > The bar is not "extremely low", it's probably the highest bar in any current MMO.

> > Seriously:The bar to raiding in GW2 is probably a bit higher as it was in classic WoW and about the same as it was in the Burning Crusade, attunements and heroics included.

> >

> > That's not inherently bad or anything, it's just how it is.

> >

> > (And yes, I can compare. I've played both FFXIV and WoW quite a bit, one for my job, the other with some friends. In their current forms, both have a much lower barrier of entry for raids. In FFXIV, for example, I could come on at any time, hit the duty finder for a tougher raid, and get into a run quickly, no need for vent, no need to worry about my class, it just worked. This also led to the average player being better at the game, as a side effect)

>

> Wow had a lower bar for raids than gw2?? I mean no, it didn't. I don't know about FFXIV but I do know that getting ascended gear in gw2 is not a big grind compared to getting the best stat gear in other MMOs. On top of that, anet have said ascended gear will ALWAYS BE the highest stat gear in the game (i.e after you get one set for one armour type you dont even need to get another set.. even if you chose to take a 5 years break from the game), AND swapping the stats only requires a small fee. I got my alt account its first full clear with sub 100 hours of gameplay (That includes grinding mastery upto leyline, and autoloot in regular tyria). I have screenshots if you want to DM me and I can show you. Right now its 135 hours of play with about 80Li.

>

> By setting the bars low in raids I should elaborate. When bosses have half their enrage timer left, that means you can do HALF AS MUCH DAMAGE AND STILL SUCCEED IN THE RAID. If that doesn't say something about the "meta" that all the casuals cry about then I don't know what does. If all the Necro mains want to play necro and clear, go ahead, it would actually work. In reality they wont because they are bad. If you cant put 100 hours in to clearing end game content, stop feeling entitled to content that is labelled end game content.

 

How many hours on your main account? Did you send any money or other items to help your alt account out? Also, I'm guessing you have cleared all the bosses on your main account? So your alt account was not starting fresh and new, you had the knowledge to clear it. Also, those 80 LIs.....were they done with complete pugs, training runs or a group of people you clear weekly with? These factors screw with the intent of the opinion.