11/28 Release Mesmer Axe Bug Fix

[Unknown.3976]

Lesson: Be careful with what u wished for, Anet's nerf bat swings real hard.

 

With this bug fix, axe ambush is brought down to the same level as other ambush skills; if anything, this just highlights how inadequate mirage truly is. Sure, there's the phantasm build but that plays similarly to the core mes, it's hardly a class changer. Ambush needs a skill-split between the various game modes.

 

And Irenio, please do not turn mirage into scrapper 2.0, scrapper was constantly tuned for WvW/PvP and it was nerfed to the point that barely anyone plays it. Scrapper players are near mythical (becuz they are just so rare). U spend all of this time working on an elite spec, just so the community would dismiss it? Hopefully, mirage does not suffer the same fate.

[Zoser.7245]

> @Unknown.3976 said:

> Lesson: Be careful with what u wished for, Anet's nerf bat swings real hard.

>

> With this bug fix, axe ambush is brought down to the same level as other ambush skills; if anything, this just highlights how inadequate mirage truly is. Sure, there's the phantasm build but that plays similarly to the core mes, it's hardly a class changer. Ambush needs a skill-split between the various game modes.

>

> And Irenio, please do not turn mirage into scrapper 2.0, scrapper was constantly tuned for WvW/PvP and it was nerfed to the point that barely anyone plays it. Scrapper players are near mythical (becuz they are just so rare). U spend all of this time working on an elite spec, just so the community would dismiss it? Hopefully, mirage does not suffer the same fate.

 

I though about that too. With the Mirage relegated to WvW/PvP we could start to call the Mirage player base the NanoCommunity to make it more familiar. I would like to see the Anet's Mirage statistics for the next two month as I commented in other thread.

[OriOri.8724]

> @Unknown.3976 said:

> Lesson: Be careful with what u wished for, Anet's nerf bat swings real hard.

>

> With this bug fix, axe ambush is brought down to the same level as other ambush skills; if anything, this just highlights how inadequate mirage truly is. Sure, there's the phantasm build but that plays similarly to the core mes, it's hardly a class changer. Ambush needs a skill-split between the various game modes.

>

> And Irenio, please do not turn mirage into scrapper 2.0, scrapper was constantly tuned for WvW/PvP and it was nerfed to the point that barely anyone plays it. Scrapper players are near mythical (becuz they are just so rare). U spend all of this time working on an elite spec, just so the community would dismiss it? Hopefully, mirage does not suffer the same fate.

 

The bug needed to be fixed. End of argument. Does mirage need work, specifically its ambush attacks? Hell fucking yes. But this bug needed to be fixed.

[Arlette.9684]

deleted post.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Arlette.9684 said:

> deleted post.

 

Dude why :D ?

Even if it's placebo, never be scarred to tell what you're expecting !

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

While I grasp that this was a bug, if it contributed that much to make us viable as a DPS spec, I'd personally suggest implementing it as a regular part of game play for Mirage. Adjust/lower damage moderately until it's tuned accordingly and brought more in line with other pure DPS specs. Glitches aren't universally bad if you rework them in your favor. A bug can be a feature if coded correctly and toned down. I think this might honestly be a viable fix to this issue, since it's obvious Mirage now falls behind other specs/builds considerably while bringing little to nothing in the way of utility or support.

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> 'ey all,

>

> With the Episode 1 release there were a pair of mesmer changes missing from the initial notes as we unable to get them translated in time for all languages; these notes'll be in a bit later:

>

> **Imaginary Axes**: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.

> **Mirrored Axes - Phantasmal Seeking Axe**: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.

>

> Damage from these axes hitting multiple times on individual targets was blowing out mirage damage. These changes should help get Mirage characters from unreasonably high to back to reasonable high damage, but we'll continue to keep an eye on their sustained and spike damage moving forward.

 

Just curious, but given how much this has affected our ability to do damage, has there been any thought to implementing this bug as a feature of axe ambush and reducing damage on the skill to bring it more in line with Weaver? Mirage, like weaver, doesn't bring much in the way of utility. In that vein, it should fall in line with the other class that does nothing but DPS. I get that the multi-hit feature was not intended, but that doesn't make it bad. Our damage has been gutted by it's removal. Maybe just rework the damage numbers on the bug, and re-release it as a feature. Turn a lemon into lemonade, and all that. *edit* Also, let's face it, the visual of this bug was amazing in game. I'm sure everyone would appreciate it.

[vizjaqtaar.8620]

wtf.. i made daredevil 80 and clas deleted from pve game ,

made reaper got gears etc. class again kicked out from "decent team comp"

made ranger to go condi druid / ranger condi - condi druid deleted from pve

made Dragonhunter its meh now

made mirage got ascended trinkets etc. and now its out of pve..

im tired..frorm all this farm all this effort for what ? umm ok we change this and your last 30-60 days of gaming time and efforts on a class is garbge untill we change something again? ..maybe i should go and buy this g.y ass 25 dolar mount from gemstore and dye myself pink and jump in front of trading post..cya

[Heika.5403]

I've been kicked several times of a raid due to be Mirage, and some fractals too, out of a guild or friends raid/group. And even with them they ask me to use other profession less in Mathias, Cairn or Murssat and only if you promise use the phantasm build.

 

For curiosity I tried to organize a raid in the group finder with the Mirage. No success. How things change from one day to another ... and for me that if the Mirange had not highlighted in dps they would not have corrected anything, nor would they have called it a bug ... a Chinese story is what sounds to me all this . Certain profession was allowed to do it for years and still shines, the Mirage has been fixed asap and badly.

[Unknown.3976]

> @vizjaqtaar.8620 said:

> kitten.. i made daredevil 80 and clas deleted from pve game ,

> made reaper got gears etc. class again kicked out from "decent team comp"

> made ranger to go condi druid / ranger condi - condi druid deleted from pve

> made Dragonhunter its meh now

> made mirage got ascended trinkets etc. and now its out of pve..

> im tired..frorm all this farm all this effort for what ? umm ok we change this and your last 30-60 days of gaming time and efforts on a class is garbge untill we change something again? ..maybe i should go and buy this g.y kitten 25 dolar mount from gemstore and dye myself pink and jump in front of trading post..cya

 

Retaliation DH and Daredevil are perfectly viable for PvE, and condi rangers received an upgrade in the form of condi soulbeast. Reaper has been in a weak spot ever since the minion master nerf but that was such a long while ago (Anet should srsly do skill-splits instead of killing fun builds).

 

Mirage has always been in a wonky spot, we have been voicing our concerns since the beta preview. The fact that mirage has to relied on a bug to remain competitive, speaks volume about the specs' deficiencies. Even if the bug is left untouched, u are stuck with an inflexible build.

[Mitsuko.3162]

> @vizjaqtaar.8620 said:

> kitten.. i made daredevil 80 and clas deleted from pve game ,

> made reaper got gears etc. class again kicked out from "decent team comp"

> made ranger to go condi druid / ranger condi - condi druid deleted from pve

> made Dragonhunter its meh now

> made mirage got ascended trinkets etc. and now its out of pve..

> im tired..frorm all this farm all this effort for what ? umm ok we change this and your last 30-60 days of gaming time and efforts on a class is garbge untill we change something again? ..maybe i should go and buy this g.y kitten 25 dolar mount from gemstore and dye myself pink and jump in front of trading post..cya

 

This is so true -- I hope the developers realize that a lot of effort, time, and sometimes money players put in to gearing up character that they just nerf to the ground overnight. If you're going to fix something then please fix it correctly. Don't reduce the dps by ~38%. No wonder this makes mesmer players really flipping angry at you right now.

[obcan.1470]

TFW some of you believe mirage should be higher than ele. TFW some of you want to make us believe that pressing 2 buttons for rotation is fun. TFW some of you say 45k was ON PAR WITH OTHER CLASSES. Not even 42k on ele is on par with ele itself because of how much fucking RNG it is, but nah 45k with condi build sure must be fine.

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

> @obcan.1470 said:

> TFW some of you believe mirage should be higher than ele. TFW some of you want to make us believe that pressing 2 buttons for rotation is fun. TFW some of you say 45k was ON PAR WITH OTHER CLASSES. Not even 42k on ele is on par with ele itself because of how much kitten RNG it is, but nah 45k with condi build sure must be fine.

 

Except that most of us don't want anywhere close to 40k. Hell most of us don't even believe it should be higher than ele. Just on par, or closer to condi DD, since, you know, neither of us do anything but damage. But yeah keep white knighting the golden child. That comes off as constructive.

[ZhouX.8742]

> @StinVec.3621 said:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > 'ey all,

> >

> > With the Episode 1 release there were a pair of mesmer changes missing from the initial notes as we unable to get them translated in time for all languages; these notes'll be in a bit later:

> >

> > **Imaginary Axes**: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.

> > **Mirrored Axes - Phantasmal Seeking Axe**: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.

> >

> > Damage from these axes hitting multiple times on individual targets was blowing out mirage damage. These changes should help get Mirage characters from unreasonably high to back to reasonable high damage, but we'll continue to keep an eye on their sustained and spike damage moving forward.

>

> Is this change forced across all game modes?

>

> More directly, was this change in behavior for PvP game modes only, or is the Open World-PvE Mirage 'adjusted' also?

>

> If OW-PvE Mirage is affected by this change, why? It's clear you felt it was functioning improperly in PvP modes, so why not 'adjust' it just for PvP modes as you do for other skills?

>

> If OW-PvE is not affected by this change, thank you for being logical and consistent with your efforts in further balancing skills individually for different game modes.

 

It's a bug, whether it affects a class positively or negatively is irrelevant. A bug is something that should be fixed regardless of the game mode. This would and should apply for any other class, not just mesmers.

 

Would be the same with the boon corruption bug that was on scourge, PvE probably saw little play in this, this doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed in PvE alongside PvP/WvW.

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

> @ZhouX.8742 said:

> > @StinVec.3621 said:

> > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > > 'ey all,

> > >

> > > With the Episode 1 release there were a pair of mesmer changes missing from the initial notes as we unable to get them translated in time for all languages; these notes'll be in a bit later:

> > >

> > > **Imaginary Axes**: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.

> > > **Mirrored Axes - Phantasmal Seeking Axe**: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.

> > >

> > > Damage from these axes hitting multiple times on individual targets was blowing out mirage damage. These changes should help get Mirage characters from unreasonably high to back to reasonable high damage, but we'll continue to keep an eye on their sustained and spike damage moving forward.

> >

> > Is this change forced across all game modes?

> >

> > More directly, was this change in behavior for PvP game modes only, or is the Open World-PvE Mirage 'adjusted' also?

> >

> > If OW-PvE Mirage is affected by this change, why? It's clear you felt it was functioning improperly in PvP modes, so why not 'adjust' it just for PvP modes as you do for other skills?

> >

> > If OW-PvE is not affected by this change, thank you for being logical and consistent with your efforts in further balancing skills individually for different game modes.

>

> It's a bug, whether it affects a class positively or negatively is irrelevant. A bug is something that should be fixed regardless of the game mode. This would and should apply for any other class, not just mesmers.

>

> Would be the same with the boon corruption bug that was on scourge, PvE probably saw little play in this, this doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed in PvE alongside PvP/WvW.

 

While I wholeheartedly agree that the damage on Mirage was disgusting and needed reworking, I'll have to disagree that every bug needs fixing, without question. Bugs can produce happy accidents you don't expect, and in the case of the double hit, produce effects you don't always intend, but are neat all the same, and can be re-purposed if re-coded and tuned for the game. This double hit effect, if it's the difference between 25k and 45k, doesn't have to be abolished. If the code error is reworked as a feature, damage is adjusted across it, and brought more in line with other DPS specs, you can realistically turn this glitch into a benefit. The damage on it would definitely have to be reworked though.

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

On a considerably more practical level, ambush skills overall need a rework. I'd like axe to get back it's shine, but what I'd like even more is the ability for players to test each weapon's new mechanic without it leaving a bitter taste in their mouths. The ambush mechanic/damage/duration just needs some work.

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

Posted this in the mesmer subforum. Another idea that'll allow power clone mirage to work: make part of mirage's base trait that clones now do more damage based on power. Remove the hard cap on their raw damage for mirage only, and add some form of soft cap if needed instead. That would allow for clones to deal more damage overall, without buff benefits as is normal, and raise overall DPS for both condition and power builds. It would also make Mirage feel very much unique, and give it some form of direction and drive it currently seems to lack.

[squallaus.8321]

> @obcan.1470 said:

> TFW some of you believe mirage should be higher than ele. TFW some of you want to make us believe that pressing 2 buttons for rotation is fun. TFW some of you say 45k was ON PAR WITH OTHER CLASSES. Not even 42k on ele is on par with ele itself because of how much kitten RNG it is, but nah 45k with condi build sure must be fine.

 

Given how much 'RNG' there is with ele's 42k rotation I'd say its probably a bug as well. Anet should look into removing the 'RNG' for certainty by removing any multi hits with ele's rotation.

 

[Aylaine.1036]

> @squallaus.8321 said:

> > @obcan.1470 said:

> > TFW some of you believe mirage should be higher than ele. TFW some of you want to make us believe that pressing 2 buttons for rotation is fun. TFW some of you say 45k was ON PAR WITH OTHER CLASSES. Not even 42k on ele is on par with ele itself because of how much kitten RNG it is, but nah 45k with condi build sure must be fine.

>

> Given how much 'RNG' there is with ele's 42k rotation I'd say its probably a bug as well. Anet should look into removing the 'RNG' for certainty by removing any multi hits with ele's rotation.

>

 

Sounds good to me. Ele should be toned down to everyone elses level too.

 

Can we get an official response on the new bug going on and plans to address it + adjust ambush damage to make Clone Mirage relevant again? I don't want to go back to pistol honestly. Just a heads up that Anet is looking into this would be nice because a lot of Mirage players spent time & gold and even money on their clone builds because for once Mesmer could do damage. It was too much. But now it's too little. I just want us to do damage worthy of a greedy, supportless DPS spec.

[Trakarg.2095]

Mirage was finally being played the way it was supposed to, and they go to trash tier after a single bugfix. World class design, anet.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @Trakarg.2095 said:

> Mirage was finally being played the way it was supposed to, and they go to trash tier after a single bugfix. World class design, anet.

 

I've been struggling to find one class per weight I liked for a long while now.

Took me a while to finally like Guardian a little (I'm still dying quite a bit on it in the "conditions enemies" areas) too much, but eh.

Medium has Thief I will always like and I'm close to almost liking Ranger. I don't like Druid and I need to unlock Soulbeast.

Light always had Necro for me as that was the first character I ever made due to not finding the specific classes I wanted to play in the very beginning.

 

After that, I decided to see if I can find 2 of "almost" every weight. Heavy has nothing else for me except Guardian unless I give Revenant another try. Really hate Warrior.

Already mentioned Ranger on medium and I really loathe Engineer.

Then comes to light where I hated how squishy Elementalist was as I don't like glass cannon classes/gameplay.

 

Then came to Mesmer which I decided to make for one reason.... port slave.

Mirage didn't come out until a few weeks later and even then I wasn't impressed with the videos I saw on it. In the end, I got Mesmer to 80 and had hero points so I decided to try out Mirage as I knew 100% without even trying it I would hate Chrono from what I've seen in the attack/trait choices and what people been playing it as. I would never like Chrono.

So I decided to try Mirage and... instantly I was thinking "3rd fave class. This is fun/awesome/cool/exciting!"

Never expected after that struggle to get it to 80, to have a Mesmer class be fun.

It's a bit squishy but not as bad as Elementalist at all. Was truly enjoying it.

 

Then... the bug fix.

Now my Mesmer is back to um... I guess port slaving which is something I only do once every... whenever. Was even planning on gearing her and getting skins for her as I was so happy for my Mirage.

And then this happens.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @Trakarg.2095 said:

> > Mirage was finally being played the way it was supposed to, and they go to trash tier after a single bugfix. World class design, anet.

>

> I've been struggling to find one class per weight I liked for a long while now.

> Took me a while to finally like Guardian a little (I'm still dying quite a bit on it in the "conditions enemies" areas) too much, but eh.

> Medium has Thief I will always like and I'm close to almost liking Ranger. I don't like Druid and I need to unlock Soulbeast.

> Light always had Necro for me as that was the first character I ever made due to not finding the specific classes I wanted to play in the very beginning.

>

> After that, I decided to see if I can find 2 of "almost" every weight. Heavy has nothing else for me except Guardian unless I give Revenant another try. Really hate Warrior.

> Already mentioned Ranger on medium and I really loathe Engineer.

> Then comes to light where I hated how squishy Elementalist was as I don't like glass cannon classes/gameplay.

>

> Then came to Mesmer which I decided to make for one reason.... port slave.

> Mirage didn't come out until a few weeks later and even then I wasn't impressed with the videos I saw on it. In the end, I got Mesmer to 80 and had hero points so I decided to try out Mirage as I knew 100% without even trying it I would hate Chrono from what I've seen in the attack/trait choices and what people been playing it as. I would never like Chrono.

> So I decided to try Mirage and... instantly I was thinking "3rd fave class. This is fun/awesome/cool/exciting!"

> Never expected after that struggle to get it to 80, to have a Mesmer class be fun.

> It's a bit squishy but not as bad as Elementalist at all. Was truly enjoying it.

>

> Then... the bug fix.

> Now my Mesmer is back to um... I guess port slaving which is something I only do once every... whenever. Was even planning on gearing her and getting skins for her as I was so happy for my Mirage.

> And then this happens.

 

Mirage was clearly overpowered. It had way too much of damage, reliability and safety. Not to mention it's flexible enough and allows for utility (taking moa is a negligible dps loss and huge help with CC).

 

The playstyle is still there. It still does respectable damage and is still among the best picks almost everywhere. Possibly still optimal on Matthias.

[Vyrulisse.1246]

This is getting to ridiculous levels in terms of balance in general. They "fix" stuff but they NEVER take the time to test these fixes and see just how they can completely crush a spec... then we have to sit here and wait for MONTHS before they even maybe try to do something about it.

 

Yeah I'm a tad upset because it just keeps happening with them for many classes. Unless you're Ele then you can rest assured your spot at the top is permanent.

[Trakarg.2095]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > @Trakarg.2095 said:

> > > Mirage was finally being played the way it was supposed to, and they go to trash tier after a single bugfix. World class design, anet.

> >

> > I've been struggling to find one class per weight I liked for a long while now.

> > Took me a while to finally like Guardian a little (I'm still dying quite a bit on it in the "conditions enemies" areas) too much, but eh.

> > Medium has Thief I will always like and I'm close to almost liking Ranger. I don't like Druid and I need to unlock Soulbeast.

> > Light always had Necro for me as that was the first character I ever made due to not finding the specific classes I wanted to play in the very beginning.

> >

> > After that, I decided to see if I can find 2 of "almost" every weight. Heavy has nothing else for me except Guardian unless I give Revenant another try. Really hate Warrior.

> > Already mentioned Ranger on medium and I really loathe Engineer.

> > Then comes to light where I hated how squishy Elementalist was as I don't like glass cannon classes/gameplay.

> >

> > Then came to Mesmer which I decided to make for one reason.... port slave.

> > Mirage didn't come out until a few weeks later and even then I wasn't impressed with the videos I saw on it. In the end, I got Mesmer to 80 and had hero points so I decided to try out Mirage as I knew 100% without even trying it I would hate Chrono from what I've seen in the attack/trait choices and what people been playing it as. I would never like Chrono.

> > So I decided to try Mirage and... instantly I was thinking "3rd fave class. This is fun/awesome/cool/exciting!"

> > Never expected after that struggle to get it to 80, to have a Mesmer class be fun.

> > It's a bit squishy but not as bad as Elementalist at all. Was truly enjoying it.

> >

> > Then... the bug fix.

> > Now my Mesmer is back to um... I guess port slaving which is something I only do once every... whenever. Was even planning on gearing her and getting skins for her as I was so happy for my Mirage.

> > And then this happens.

>

> Mirage was clearly overpowered. It had way too much of damage, reliability and safety. Not to mention it's flexible enough and allows for utility (taking moa is a negligible dps loss and huge help with CC).

>

> The playstyle is still there. It still does respectable damage and is still among the best picks almost everywhere. Possibly still optimal on Matthias.

 

Um, no. The clone build was nerfed to the point of garbage. It's sub 30k now. Below phantasms and below just about everything else. The playstyle is there, but it does NOT do respectable damage. It's trash.

 

Yes, the new build needed to be toned down.

 

No, it didn't have to be REMOVED.

 

Anet removed it.

[Feanor.2358]

Can you please stop exaggerating? I just played the clone build on Matthias and was top dps. Sure, phantasm would get me even higher probably, but it's a playable build.