musu.9205 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 reasonable high dps is our class meme now just like heavy support for scourge purity of purpose for engi good spot for guard we got ours back to day one , mirage is a trash spec beyond number fix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @musu.9205 said: > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > just like > heavy support for scourge > purity of purpose for engi > good spot for guard > we got ours > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > beyond number fix > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Oddly, for a bugfix it doesn't look like it's operating as intended (visually). Like if it hits the boss once, it never seeks again and just flies into nothingness, unlike before it looked cooler when all the axes would seek the same target. I propose to change it so that when it comes out it doesn't do any damage and only does damage when it seeks a target, that way it would look as aesthetically appeasing as before. Also add in some range for the Axe seek so that it works well and become more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @musu.9205 said: > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > just like > > heavy support for scourge > > purity of purpose for engi > > good spot for guard > > we got ours > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > beyond number fix > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. Well if Mirage is relegate only to those game modes we could start to call the Mirage player base the NanoCommunity to make it more familiar. I would like to see the Anet's Mirage statistics for the next two month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @Zoser.7245 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > > just like > > > heavy support for scourge > > > purity of purpose for engi > > > good spot for guard > > > we got ours > > > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > > beyond number fix > > > > > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. > > Well if Mirage is relegate only to those game modes we could start to call the Mirage player base the NanoCommunity to make it more familiar. I would like to see the Anet's Mirage statistics for the next two month. Since i have a bad englisch i dont really understand. Basically mirage is good for wvw and pvp now. Anet Should fix it and make mirage Good in pve ahain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @Zoser.7245 said: > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > > > just like > > > > heavy support for scourge > > > > purity of purpose for engi > > > > good spot for guard > > > > we got ours > > > > > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > > > beyond number fix > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. > > > > Well if Mirage is relegate only to those game modes we could start to call the Mirage player base the NanoCommunity to make it more familiar. I would like to see the Anet's Mirage statistics for the next two month. > > Since i have a bad englisch i dont really understand. > > Basically mirage is good for wvw and pvp now. > > Anet Should fix it and make mirage Good in pve ahain. Well, I don't know what they'll do or not with the Mirage. The only thing that I can say is that, for me, the Clone build reflects how the Mirage should be. Bursty, faster, unpredictable and hard to avoid. Our mechanics are still a lack but how Clone build works in the Mirage with the ambush mitigate it and make it fun to play. Even effective is the damage is enough (not like now). The phantasm build is too slow and boring, plus now, the ambush doesn't help too much while/during the ramp up of the phantasms like before. I readed a phrase somewhere that I liked: **The Clone build was for me the essence of the Mirage design, now is dead in the abyss.** Sadly the balance patchs of this game are really slow, each several months. We'll see what happen and if they do something sooner, for now the silence is their answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @Zoser.7245 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > @Zoser.7245 said: > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > > > > just like > > > > > heavy support for scourge > > > > > purity of purpose for engi > > > > > good spot for guard > > > > > we got ours > > > > > > > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > > > > beyond number fix > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. > > > > > > Well if Mirage is relegate only to those game modes we could start to call the Mirage player base the NanoCommunity to make it more familiar. I would like to see the Anet's Mirage statistics for the next two month. > > > > Since i have a bad englisch i dont really understand. > > > > Basically mirage is good for wvw and pvp now. > > > > Anet Should fix it and make mirage Good in pve ahain. > > Well, I don't know what they'll do or not with the Mirage. The only thing that I can say is that, for me, the Clone build reflects how the Mirage should be. Bursty, faster, unpredictable and hard to avoid. The phantasm build is too slow and boring, plus now, the ambush doesn't help too much like before while/during the ramp up of the phantasms like before. > > I readed a phrase somewhere that I liked: **The Clone build was for me the essence of the Mirage design, now is dead in the abyss.** > > Sadly the balance patchs of this game are really slow, each several months. We'll see what happen and if they do something sooner, for now the silence is their answer. Of course the clone build was the essence of mirage. The class line is built around buffing the damage our clones can do and has the best clone mesmer has ever been given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @Zoser.7245 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > @Zoser.7245 said: > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > > > > just like > > > > > heavy support for scourge > > > > > purity of purpose for engi > > > > > good spot for guard > > > > > we got ours > > > > > > > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > > > > beyond number fix > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. > > > > > > Well if Mirage is relegate only to those game modes we could start to call the Mirage player base the NanoCommunity to make it more familiar. I would like to see the Anet's Mirage statistics for the next two month. > > > > Since i have a bad englisch i dont really understand. > > > > Basically mirage is good for wvw and pvp now. > > > > Anet Should fix it and make mirage Good in pve ahain. > > Well, I don't know what they'll do or not with the Mirage. The only thing that I can say is that, for me, the Clone build reflects how the Mirage should be. Bursty, faster, unpredictable and hard to avoid. Our mechanics are still a lack but how Clone build works in the Mirage with the ambush mitigate it and make it fun to play. Even effective is the damage is enough (not like now). The phantasm build is too slow and boring, plus now, the ambush doesn't help too much while/during the ramp up of the phantasms like before. > > I readed a phrase somewhere that I liked: **The Clone build was for me the essence of the Mirage design, now is dead in the abyss.** > > Sadly the balance patchs of this game are really slow, each several months. We'll see what happen and if they do something sooner, for now the silence is their answer. well exactly ! As i stated out many times ; i'm not a PvE player, but i really enjoyed playing a mix of IH and Shatter in PvE. It was the Best way for my Build to deal damage with clone Ambushes, and it was way more fun then pressing 4 three times and then go afk. I[!] can probably still play clone Mirage and have fun with it on low tier Fracs, open world etc, but every high end content falls back to the most boring build in GW2. Even then, it's not optimal for high end PvE. There are several DpS Options, which deal a) more damage b) actually have group support. Why would anyone play Mirage over Renegade,Weaver etc? Only reason would be a simple rotation, but i may remember; !!! THIS IS HIGH END CONTENT. IF A PLAYER IS TO DUMP TO LEARN A ROTATION HE DOESN'T BELONG IN HIGH END CONTENT. !!! So yeah; there is NO Reason to choose Mirage over actual DPS - specs. I'm sad for high end PvE - Players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @OriOri.8724 said: > > @Zoser.7245 said: > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > @Zoser.7245 said: > > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > > > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > > > > > just like > > > > > > heavy support for scourge > > > > > > purity of purpose for engi > > > > > > good spot for guard > > > > > > we got ours > > > > > > > > > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > > > > > beyond number fix > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. > > > > > > > > Well if Mirage is relegate only to those game modes we could start to call the Mirage player base the NanoCommunity to make it more familiar. I would like to see the Anet's Mirage statistics for the next two month. > > > > > > Since i have a bad englisch i dont really understand. > > > > > > Basically mirage is good for wvw and pvp now. > > > > > > Anet Should fix it and make mirage Good in pve ahain. > > > > Well, I don't know what they'll do or not with the Mirage. The only thing that I can say is that, for me, the Clone build reflects how the Mirage should be. Bursty, faster, unpredictable and hard to avoid. The phantasm build is too slow and boring, plus now, the ambush doesn't help too much like before while/during the ramp up of the phantasms like before. > > > > I readed a phrase somewhere that I liked: **The Clone build was for me the essence of the Mirage design, now is dead in the abyss.** > > > > Sadly the balance patchs of this game are really slow, each several months. We'll see what happen and if they do something sooner, for now the silence is their answer. > > Of course the clone build was the essence of mirage. The class line is built around buffing the damage our clones can do and has the best clone mesmer has ever been given. well that's still our view . even trait like HI exists , anet seems to be unsure what they want for mirage . and we all know how slow they are when it comes to redesign. clone mirage build while its fun , still has a lot of useless traits /not so meaningful slot skill . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @musu.9205 said: > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > just like > > heavy support for scourge > > purity of purpose for engi > > good spot for guard > > we got ours > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > beyond number fix > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. i mean , it's still carried by op elusive mind and sword ambush . cut that two off .how much is left of mirage for pvp . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @musu.9205 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > > just like > > > heavy support for scourge > > > purity of purpose for engi > > > good spot for guard > > > we got ours > > > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > > beyond number fix > > > > > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. > > i mean , it's still carried by op elusive mind and sword ambush . cut that two off .how much is left of mirage for pvp . Right now i'm playing without sword Ambush, works nice for me. Jaunt, IA, (Mirage advance - i actually use this thing right now) + ability to use skills while dodging. Elusive Mind is for sure a Core Trait, but afaik the Meta Mirage isn't even playing it .... Don't be ignorant please Edit ; went to metabattle and saw that EM is in every PvP Build right now. My information was outdated it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aylaine.1036 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @NICENIKESHOE.7128 said: > > @Aylaine.1036 said: > > Has anyone confirmed if the golem is being buggy or if the previous bugfix (not the double hitting, but the illusionary axes hitting at all) was reverted? The damage loss seems far too hefty to be attributed to only losing the double hit. I have a feeling that the trait/base axes floating around just aren't behaving as they should right now. > > I'm getting mixed reports. Was testing with guildies (I was running tank) and our mirage still do 1st if not 2nd top damage when going through wing 1. On the other hand was testing wing 5 boss and wasn't performing best, though could be because we're quite new to the boss so even buffs are wonky. Numbers are variable with wing bosses so would like to see other mirages' imput :/ Yeah. I'm waiting a few days to see what's really going on . Day 1 hysteria is to be expected, but I just hope there is a bug somewhere and we aren't as low as the initial reports placed us. 34-36k would be perfect for a non support oriented DPS spec like Mirage IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia.3598 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Pretty sure the bug fix gave it a new bug is all the axes dont seek that alone isnt right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toeofdoom.6152 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 My (quick) tests indicated axes were hitting the expected number of times after the patch, so I couldn't find any new bugs. Phantasm mirage works quite well for wing 5 boss 1 though, and once reoptimised I think the clone build will suit some fights well enough. Unfortunately it won't be the most general build unless it includes shatters for burst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squallaus.8321 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @Aylaine.1036 said: > > @NICENIKESHOE.7128 said: > > > @Aylaine.1036 said: > > > Has anyone confirmed if the golem is being buggy or if the previous bugfix (not the double hitting, but the illusionary axes hitting at all) was reverted? The damage loss seems far too hefty to be attributed to only losing the double hit. I have a feeling that the trait/base axes floating around just aren't behaving as they should right now. > > > > I'm getting mixed reports. Was testing with guildies (I was running tank) and our mirage still do 1st if not 2nd top damage when going through wing 1. On the other hand was testing wing 5 boss and wasn't performing best, though could be because we're quite new to the boss so even buffs are wonky. Numbers are variable with wing bosses so would like to see other mirages' imput :/ > Yeah. I'm waiting a few days to see what's really going on . Day 1 hysteria is to be expected, but I just hope there is a bug somewhere and we aren't as low as the initial reports placed us. 34-36k would be perfect for a non support oriented DPS spec like Mirage IMO. > @Aylaine.1036 said: > > @NICENIKESHOE.7128 said: > > > @Aylaine.1036 said: > > > Has anyone confirmed if the golem is being buggy or if the previous bugfix (not the double hitting, but the illusionary axes hitting at all) was reverted? The damage loss seems far too hefty to be attributed to only losing the double hit. I have a feeling that the trait/base axes floating around just aren't behaving as they should right now. > > > > I'm getting mixed reports. Was testing with guildies (I was running tank) and our mirage still do 1st if not 2nd top damage when going through wing 1. On the other hand was testing wing 5 boss and wasn't performing best, though could be because we're quite new to the boss so even buffs are wonky. Numbers are variable with wing bosses so would like to see other mirages' imput :/ > Yeah. I'm waiting a few days to see what's really going on . Day 1 hysteria is to be expected, but I just hope there is a bug somewhere and we aren't as low as the initial reports placed us. 34-36k would be perfect for a non support oriented DPS spec like Mirage IMO. Main reason for mirage clone builds to still do ok is because its easier for them to position and stick to bosses because of all their dodges. But once you are partied with more competent players that can stick to their weaver, guardian, warrior etc rotations the mirage wont be able to keep up. Mirage is more consistent but has a much lower ceiling for damage output post patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heika.5403 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 > @Toeofdoom.6152 said: > My (quick) tests indicated axes were hitting the expected number of times after the patch, so I couldn't find any new bugs. > > Phantasm mirage works quite well for wing 5 boss 1 though, and once reoptimised I think the clone build will suit some fights well enough. Unfortunately it won't be the most general build unless it includes shatters for burst I have tried to include shatters and helps nothing, none significative contribution in fact it difficult the rotation needlessly and usually you lost dps and only gain a bit sometimes. So that affirmation is false, impossible to make that build general. But what is sure is that i've been kicked several times of a raid due to be Mirage, and some fractals too, out of a guild or friends raid/group. And even with them they ask me to use other profession less in Mathias, Cairn or Murssat and only if you promise use the phantasm build. For curiosity I tried to organize a raid in the group finder with the Mirage. No success. How things change from one day to another ... and for me that if the Mirange had not highlighted in dps they would not have corrected anything, nor would they have called it a bug ... a Chinese story is what sounds to me all this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantatus.4065 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @musu.9205 said: > > @OriOri.8724 said: > > > @Zoser.7245 said: > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > @Zoser.7245 said: > > > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > > > > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > > > > > > just like > > > > > > > heavy support for scourge > > > > > > > purity of purpose for engi > > > > > > > good spot for guard > > > > > > > we got ours > > > > > > > > > > > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > > > > > > beyond number fix > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. > > > > > > > > > > Well if Mirage is relegate only to those game modes we could start to call the Mirage player base the NanoCommunity to make it more familiar. I would like to see the Anet's Mirage statistics for the next two month. > > > > > > > > Since i have a bad englisch i dont really understand. > > > > > > > > Basically mirage is good for wvw and pvp now. > > > > > > > > Anet Should fix it and make mirage Good in pve ahain. > > > > > > Well, I don't know what they'll do or not with the Mirage. The only thing that I can say is that, for me, the Clone build reflects how the Mirage should be. Bursty, faster, unpredictable and hard to avoid. The phantasm build is too slow and boring, plus now, the ambush doesn't help too much like before while/during the ramp up of the phantasms like before. > > > > > > I readed a phrase somewhere that I liked: **The Clone build was for me the essence of the Mirage design, now is dead in the abyss.** > > > > > > Sadly the balance patchs of this game are really slow, each several months. We'll see what happen and if they do something sooner, for now the silence is their answer. > > > > Of course the clone build was the essence of mirage. The class line is built around buffing the damage our clones can do and has the best clone mesmer has ever been given. > > well that's still our view . even trait like HI exists , anet seems to be unsure what they want for mirage . and we all know how slow they are when it comes to redesign. > clone mirage build while its fun , still has a lot of useless traits /not so meaningful slot skill . I really wish when they added elite specs to the game, they gave a detailed explanation of how they intend the spec to function, what their goals are for it, and what role its meant to fill. One of the problems right along has been we have little idea of mirage's intent since it's not a terribly cohesive design. At the same time, it keeps seeming like Anet has no idea what they want from the spec either, though perhaps that's because we're just having to guess at what they're trying to accomplish. Being top dps allowed people to overlook mirage's faults, but if that's no longer the case, those flaws become more glaring and more in need of addressing. If mirage is meant to be our clone spec, then obviously they need to go back and do some retooling if it yesterday's bug fix has resulted in clones doing less dps than running phantasms and basically ignoring almost all over mirage's other mechanics and abilities. But, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damio Roncartia.7041 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 While I grasp that this was a bug, if it contributed that much to make us viable as a DPS spec, I'd personally suggest implementing it as a regular part of game play for Mirage. Adjust/lower damage moderately until it's tuned accordingly and brought more in line with other pure DPS specs. Glitches aren't universally bad if you rework them in your favor. A bug can be a feature if coded correctly and toned down. I think this might honestly be a viable fix to this issue, since it's obvious Mirage now falls behind other specs/builds considerably while bringing little to nothing in the way of utility or support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toeofdoom.6152 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Heika.5403 said: > > @Toeofdoom.6152 said: > > My (quick) tests indicated axes were hitting the expected number of times after the patch, so I couldn't find any new bugs. > > > > Phantasm mirage works quite well for wing 5 boss 1 though, and once reoptimised I think the clone build will suit some fights well enough. Unfortunately it won't be the most general build unless it includes shatters for burst > > I have tried to include shatters and helps nothing, none significative contribution in fact it difficult the rotation needlessly and usually you lost dps and only gain a bit sometimes. So that affirmation is false, impossible to make that build general. Yeah, I'm not saying "shatters are good for raids", I'm saying "if a version with shatters maintains 30k+, it will be usable in a variety of places because it will have some level of burst (at least, what passes for burst on a Condi class)" Mirage can also bring focus pulls and a lot of cc if necessary, so I don't really agree when people say it has "no utility" - but it is pretty limited in other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @Cantatus.4065 said: > I really wish when they added elite specs to the game, they gave a detailed explanation of how they intend the spec to function, what their goals are for it, and what role its meant to fill. Haha you think the devs have that much vision about the things they add to the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICENIKESHOE.7128 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 They won't add descriptions because of lack of pre-launch testing from playerbase. They even stated they weren't expecting chrono to become tank in the beginning. It is pretty clear mirage is meant to be a dps class given how traits are **all** selfish and/or focus on condi damage. Unfortunately several main class mechanics are left underperforming like ambush, mirror and clone ambush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown.3976 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @musu.9205 said: > > reasonable high dps is our class meme now > > just like > > heavy support for scourge > > purity of purpose for engi > > good spot for guard > > we got ours > > > > back to day one , mirage is a trash spec > > beyond number fix > > > > > > Lets Keep it real here. Mirage is still good for Roaming in wvw and pvp. Popular roaming builds eventually dies, see thief, scrapper and stealth mes. They either get hit with that inevitable nerf bat, or are outclassed by new specs, or are hard-countered by newly introduced mechanics. Elusive Mind is stupid strong in PvP/WvW, color me not surprised when it is gutted; Anet did it with the DD dash, and elusive mind is even more potent than dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamma il Dio.2074 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I see a lot of developers here xD come on a month ago it didn't even exist and now seems a disaster, you can play many other classes. Furthermore if there are bugs/mistakes they'll fix them, give them time.. no need to be so harsh for some numbers, it's a game.. And to be honest i dont see how a class with such a simple rotation doing insane dmg can be fun.. but it's my point of view xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said: > I see a lot of developers here xD come on a month ago it didn't even exist and now seems a disaster, you can play many other classes. Furthermore if there are bugs/mistakes they'll fix them, give them time.. no need to be so harsh for some numbers, it's a game.. And to be honest i dont see how a class with such a simple rotation doing insane dmg can be fun.. but it's my point of view xD Random none-mirage Player appears... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown.3976 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 > @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said: > I see a lot of developers here xD come on a month ago it didn't even exist and now seems a disaster, you can play many other classes. Furthermore if there are bugs/mistakes they'll fix them, give them time.. no need to be so harsh for some numbers, it's a game.. And to be honest i dont see how a class with such a simple rotation doing insane dmg can be fun.. but it's my point of view xD Yes, Mirage is a disaster (at least for PvE mode) becuz it's supposed to bring viable clone builds to the forefront, instead, we are still stuck with phantasm builds for grp content. PvE mes have been relying heavily on phantasms since gw2's inception, is it too much for mes players to ask for a competitive non-phantasm build? And I play all classes, retaliation DH, renegade, burnzerker, condi soulbeast and DD all have relatively simple rotations with high dmg output. Do those need nerfing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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