Lunateric.3708 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"TheWolf.1602" said: > > Just let the raiders have their legendary ring, as long as every game mode has or will have an option to get legendary armor/trinkets, I couldn't care less... > As long as i will be able to get a full set of trinkets from PvE _without_ needing to raid for them, i honestly don't care. I just don't believe that will happen. > > That won't happen, pretty sure trinkets will be distributed amongst all game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said: > > > > 3,000 players in GW2RA, casual raiders with <50 li all the way to more dedicated players with >150 li. The new legendary ring's precursor can be gotten from killing ANY raid boss (escort and cairn and MO are INCREDIBLY easy to carry a few people), and then going to any instance that has killed the bosses and not yet been reopened of Hall of Chains. (IE they killed all the bosses, then never left it.) This means its HIGHLY possible for casual people who don't raid to get the precursor for this legendary ring, without being a very dedicated raider. Just need to find generous people or actually raid o,o. > > > As clarified by Anet devs, it's not so. You _have_ to kill Dhuum to finish the collection, which makes it so that it will be highly difficult even for many raiders. Non-raiders are right out at this point. > > > > > > > > > > You know many people will just buy the kills, right? It will be only inaccessible if they make you grind Dhuum over and over again in order to finish the collection. > > That being said, what's the problem with a particular item being inaccessible to some players? Sublime Misforged says "hi". And if you're going to resort to "functionality" argument again, rest assured they'll add alternative ways to get the same functionality. PvP/WvW legendary armors set a precedent already, the devs will do the same. > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first, they want it, and it's locked because raids must be for special snowflakes and that this content would not survive the shame of having several tiers like fractals. > > If you want the mistforge armour you can queue for a WvW map alone, tag some stuff, and eventually, after some insane grind, you'll get it. Maybe. Or probably not, but at least it's in theory possible to do it that way. And we're talking about the prestige reward from WvW, a game mode that is far more difficult to master than learning a boss script. Raids require a lot of insanely time consuming and tedious social endeavours, getting 9 other player's approval, and a myriad of equally time consuming and boring stuff to get it done. > > I'm not mad, I'm long past being mad about video games, it's just distasteful and shows that the devs don't really care about 1 - the greater picture 2 - the playerbase as a whole, and that at ANet nobody actually cares about what the general population thinks. They're developing the game from their ivory tower, and the pleb can yell and complain, it won't be heard. That's what this whole story is picturing, and to be honest, it's really the first time I see game devs so disconnected from their playerbase. They just don't give a kitten. That's the shocking part. What it shows is that the developers have different data on the game and what the playerbase does and does not do as well as which game modes have proven healthy and unhealthy. I doubt they had a meeting going:"So how can we annoy playbase xyz the most." What is more realistic is that they looked at numbers and decided based on that to add the new ring to raids (after the last one was added to open world). I'm pretty sure this will also include some legendary trinkets getting added to wvw (not sure about spvp) down the road, similar to legendary backpacks. The unhappy small faction of forum complainers won't have been part of that metric (or at least not a big part) though and as long as raids bring in new and more players and this shows up in the data arenanet has, they will stick to their design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said: > > > > 3,000 players in GW2RA, casual raiders with <50 li all the way to more dedicated players with >150 li. The new legendary ring's precursor can be gotten from killing ANY raid boss (escort and cairn and MO are INCREDIBLY easy to carry a few people), and then going to any instance that has killed the bosses and not yet been reopened of Hall of Chains. (IE they killed all the bosses, then never left it.) This means its HIGHLY possible for casual people who don't raid to get the precursor for this legendary ring, without being a very dedicated raider. Just need to find generous people or actually raid o,o. > > > As clarified by Anet devs, it's not so. You _have_ to kill Dhuum to finish the collection, which makes it so that it will be highly difficult even for many raiders. Non-raiders are right out at this point. > > > > > > > > > > You know many people will just buy the kills, right? It will be only inaccessible if they make you grind Dhuum over and over again in order to finish the collection. > > That being said, what's the problem with a particular item being inaccessible to some players? Sublime Misforged says "hi". And if you're going to resort to "functionality" argument again, rest assured they'll add alternative ways to get the same functionality. PvP/WvW legendary armors set a precedent already, the devs will do the same. > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first, they want it, and it's locked because raids must be for special snowflakes and that this content would not survive the shame of having several tiers like fractals. > > If you want the mistforge armour you can queue for a WvW map alone, tag some stuff, and eventually, after some insane grind, you'll get it. Maybe. Or probably not, but at least it's in theory possible to do it that way. And we're talking about the prestige reward from WvW, a game mode that is far more difficult to master than learning a boss script. Raids require a lot of insanely time consuming and tedious social endeavours, getting 9 other player's approval, and a myriad of equally time consuming and boring stuff to get it done. > > I'm not mad, I'm long past being mad about video games, it's just distasteful and shows that the devs don't really care about 1 - the greater picture 2 - the playerbase as a whole, and that at ANet nobody actually cares about what the general population thinks. They're developing the game from their ivory tower, and the pleb can yell and complain, it won't be heard. That's what this whole story is picturing, and to be honest, it's really the first time I see game devs so disconnected from their playerbase. They just don't give a kitten. That's the shocking part. Don't take it the wrong way, but you don't seem to understand the situation properly. Raids are the ultimate challenge in this game and it stands to reason they offer exclusivity on their rewards, both in terms of what and when. And no, WvW isn't more difficult to master. I can agree its roaming aspect can be difficult to master, but is an aspect that isn't required for anything. The mechanics of the mode are simple, and you really don't need to do anything but follow a tag. In raids you'll at least occasionally need to do something yourself. So no, the devs do care. And they do what they must. Your expectations simply are very unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 This thread is pretty misguided. Its a ring. Not even a skin, probably an aura that you cant even choose to turn off/on. And you only get one per account, so its not even like all your other characters get the aura. And rings are the easiest thing to get in the game. Literally if your arguing that legendary rings are a qol improvements, you need to consider the 1k+ gold that gift of fortune is going to cost, and compare it to doing bloodstone fen dailies for a month. For the majority of players, they are more work than they will ever be worth. If you want to make a legendary trinket, your already blowing a ton of money on something stupid. So I don't think its out of line to gate it behind a raid that you can either do yourself, or buy for a comparable amount of money. Its not like a raid kill brings the price from 1k to 10k, wait a few months for raid clear prices to go down (hint: the legendary ring wont be out for a LONG time), and it will probably cost a few hundred gold. Literally, I doubt buying the raid kills will even double the price, and your skipping all the content. That's a fair deal for getting the main reward from content that your not even playing. Or you know, just dont bother making the ring. The overwhelming majority of people I know who have 150+ LI have never, and will never make legendary armor. Its going to be the same with this ring. Overpriced gold sink, that cant be customized, and is less convenient than ascended alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Rennie.6750" said: > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. And the fact that there are no achievements tied to it clearly shows that it's not considered by devs to be on equal footing with the raid set. The ring ended up locked behind raids because they are simply treated better than any other part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelgm.4315 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > And as we are probably now agreeing on that the question at least for me boils down if you are an advocate of the idea that the most organized activity should exclusively net the highest or in this case the best QoL reward or not. And as a secondary battle line if you think skins are a valid reward or not. > > I am personally not an advocate of the first idea and totally uninterested in exclusive skins on the other hand. As it stands now, it is a rather good development for me. > > > > Still it kind of irks me if someone equals the missing will to organize yourself in a group with lazyness. > > > > > > My personal opinion is this: > - skins are a valuable reward in GW2 depending on their rarity > - raids being the pve method of acquisition of legendary armor is fine > - if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come > - I think legendary armor has absolutely nothing to do as spvp reward. It's completely useless in that game mode and was only added for cross game mode play and basically to entice people to play spvp > - I think an exotic or ascended set of spvp exclusive skins would have been way better than legendary armor. spvp used to be about unique cool looking skins, now it's devolved into a pure farm which most people just trod through without actually enjoying it > - legendary armor in wvw is fine and I would love to see more legendarys in that game mode, though the acquisition is a problem since wvw requires 0 skill to get rewards, only time and dedication (which I am fine with but it does pose a problem reward wise) I agree with many points but, I fail to see why it poses a problem to give rewards over time like in WvW. Should a mediocre employee be forbidden to save for retirement because he did not have the skill to get rewards from work? The same logic is very weird to be applied to raids in: _" if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come"_ You **shouldn't** need that much incentive to play the **ultimate challenge** game mode. There is literally nothing to do after you finish it (hence the "ultimate" part), that would require more work or more investment than it already did. When you're done with a raid (or the CMs if you're into that), you're done, and whatever else you do is just repetition. This is okay because challenges have a lot of replay value, you can strive to get better times and strive to get a title for clearing it without anyone dying or such, but a more "material" reward like the only two-phase armor in the game **should never be locked to raids**. I love how well designed raids are. I love that more content is getting the raid treatment with Anet attempting to salvage the lack of interesting mechanics. I love the art design and love most things concerning raids. But I hate how over the top they went with the reward structure (you can't put it on farm status yet you get the only unique skin legendary armor? bad combination guys), and I believe this is the major reason for all the bitterness from the rest of the community. Furthermore, raids are still timegated all the same with how you can only complete them weekly and there is a shard/crystal cap. In WvW you can get the sublime mistforged armor for prestige after playing for about 1 year and a half (you can get it down to 6 months with boosters and zerging), and as a WvW player I think that's pretty deserving of being considered an achievement. Anet already knows that work-over-time should be rewarded just like skilled work because this is a videogame and not real life demanding results from us, they just purposefully avoided this in Raids and made a lot of people bitter without necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > > And as we are probably now agreeing on that the question at least for me boils down if you are an advocate of the idea that the most organized activity should exclusively net the highest or in this case the best QoL reward or not. And as a secondary battle line if you think skins are a valid reward or not. > > > I am personally not an advocate of the first idea and totally uninterested in exclusive skins on the other hand. As it stands now, it is a rather good development for me. > > > > > > Still it kind of irks me if someone equals the missing will to organize yourself in a group with lazyness. > > > > > > > > > > My personal opinion is this: > > - skins are a valuable reward in GW2 depending on their rarity > > - raids being the pve method of acquisition of legendary armor is fine > > - if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come > > - I think legendary armor has absolutely nothing to do as spvp reward. It's completely useless in that game mode and was only added for cross game mode play and basically to entice people to play spvp > > - I think an exotic or ascended set of spvp exclusive skins would have been way better than legendary armor. spvp used to be about unique cool looking skins, now it's devolved into a pure farm which most people just trod through without actually enjoying it > > - legendary armor in wvw is fine and I would love to see more legendarys in that game mode, though the acquisition is a problem since wvw requires 0 skill to get rewards, only time and dedication (which I am fine with but it does pose a problem reward wise) > > I agree with many points but, I fail to see why it poses a problem to give rewards over time like in WvW. Should a mediocre employee be forbidden to save for retirement because he did not have the skill to get rewards from work? The same logic is very weird to be applied to raids in: > > _" if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come"_ > > You **shouldn't** need that much incentive to play the **ultimate challenge** game mode. There is literally nothing to do after you finish it (hence the "ultimate" part), that would require more work or more investment than it already did. When you're done with a raid (or the CMs if you're into that), you're done, and whatever else you do is just repetition. This is okay because challenges have a lot of replay value, you can strive to get better times and strive to get a title for clearing it without anyone dying or such, but a more "material" reward like the only two-phase armor in the game **should never be locked to raids**. > > I love how well designed raids are. I love that more content is getting the raid treatment with Anet attempting to salvage the lack of interesting mechanics. I love the art design and love most things concerning raids. But I hate how over the top they went with the reward structure (you can't put it on farm status yet you get the only unique skin legendary armor? bad combination guys), and I believe this is the major reason for all the bitterness from the rest of the community. > > Furthermore, raids are still timegated all the same with how you can only complete them weekly and there is a shard/crystal cap. In WvW you can get the sublime mistforged armor for prestige after playing for about 1 year and a half (you can get it down to 6 months with boosters and zerging), and as a WvW player I think that's pretty deserving of being considered an achievement. Anet already knows that work-over-time should be rewarded just like skilled work because this is a videogame and not real life demanding results from us, they just purposefully avoided this in Raids and made a lot of people bitter without necessity. Note that if Anet wanted to make WvW more competitive and reward skills they absolutely could. It's not that the game mode is less challenging, if you play it seriously it's not, but some will never fully understand how you can stand out and think it's easy. The problem with WvW is that many people are clueless when they're asked to take appropriate initiatives to ensure the overall plan works and adapt to an ever changing situation, brain checks raids simply don't have, as they're all about learning the dance and mash the same 5 keys (aka "rotation") over and over until you die, fall asleep or get bored. Yes learning the dance can be long, frustrating and sometimes you wish you were doing something else with your life, but that's not the point. The point is that it's repetition, not skill, just like long grinds aren't difficult, just long. So the question is why is repetition and mimicking rewarded when thinking every second about what you're doing isn't, in other words, if skill was really the point, why do raids have the first legendaries and WvW doesn't? Raids are in no way the epitome of challenge (repetition has never been difficult per se - you can create bots to defeat raids but not win in WvW), so, why is that? The answer is, it's not skill that is rewarded, it's how much bs you're willing to deal with. Raid rewards are a pittance for how much of the turd sandwich you agreed to eat. Or to put it politely, it's the social challenges that are rewarded. Do social challenges deserve the first legendaries for everything? This is clearly open to debate as there is no normal or expected answer. I just want to put an end to the delusional narrative that raids are the most difficult content ever, because it's clearly not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Rennie.6750" said: > Note that if Anet wanted to make WvW more competitive and reward skills they absolutely could. This is off topic, but if you really have ways of rewarding such players you should post them on the WvW forums. Although I'm not a complete regular on the WvW forums, I must admit I've never seen a comprehensive solution to that serious WvW problem. How to reward player skill in WvW and not time spent playing? Rather big question that I don't remember when was the last time it was asked and caused a discussion, certainly not on these new forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. And the fact that there are no achievements tied to it clearly shows that it's not considered by devs to be on equal footing with the raid set. > > The ring ended up locked behind raids because they are simply treated better than any other part of the game. > Of course it isn't considered to be on equal footing. Raid armor is supposed to be the reward for the ultimate challenge, whereas the PvP/WvW ones do not require any special skills/efforts/achievements to obtain. The one set that actually requires a lot of effort, the Sublime Mistforged, has its own unique skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > > > And as we are probably now agreeing on that the question at least for me boils down if you are an advocate of the idea that the most organized activity should exclusively net the highest or in this case the best QoL reward or not. And as a secondary battle line if you think skins are a valid reward or not. > > > > I am personally not an advocate of the first idea and totally uninterested in exclusive skins on the other hand. As it stands now, it is a rather good development for me. > > > > > > > > Still it kind of irks me if someone equals the missing will to organize yourself in a group with lazyness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My personal opinion is this: > > > - skins are a valuable reward in GW2 depending on their rarity > > > - raids being the pve method of acquisition of legendary armor is fine > > > - if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come > > > - I think legendary armor has absolutely nothing to do as spvp reward. It's completely useless in that game mode and was only added for cross game mode play and basically to entice people to play spvp > > > - I think an exotic or ascended set of spvp exclusive skins would have been way better than legendary armor. spvp used to be about unique cool looking skins, now it's devolved into a pure farm which most people just trod through without actually enjoying it > > > - legendary armor in wvw is fine and I would love to see more legendarys in that game mode, though the acquisition is a problem since wvw requires 0 skill to get rewards, only time and dedication (which I am fine with but it does pose a problem reward wise) > > > > I agree with many points but, I fail to see why it poses a problem to give rewards over time like in WvW. Should a mediocre employee be forbidden to save for retirement because he did not have the skill to get rewards from work? The same logic is very weird to be applied to raids in: > > > > _" if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come"_ > > > > You **shouldn't** need that much incentive to play the **ultimate challenge** game mode. There is literally nothing to do after you finish it (hence the "ultimate" part), that would require more work or more investment than it already did. When you're done with a raid (or the CMs if you're into that), you're done, and whatever else you do is just repetition. This is okay because challenges have a lot of replay value, you can strive to get better times and strive to get a title for clearing it without anyone dying or such, but a more "material" reward like the only two-phase armor in the game **should never be locked to raids**. > > > > I love how well designed raids are. I love that more content is getting the raid treatment with Anet attempting to salvage the lack of interesting mechanics. I love the art design and love most things concerning raids. But I hate how over the top they went with the reward structure (you can't put it on farm status yet you get the only unique skin legendary armor? bad combination guys), and I believe this is the major reason for all the bitterness from the rest of the community. > > > > Furthermore, raids are still timegated all the same with how you can only complete them weekly and there is a shard/crystal cap. In WvW you can get the sublime mistforged armor for prestige after playing for about 1 year and a half (you can get it down to 6 months with boosters and zerging), and as a WvW player I think that's pretty deserving of being considered an achievement. Anet already knows that work-over-time should be rewarded just like skilled work because this is a videogame and not real life demanding results from us, they just purposefully avoided this in Raids and made a lot of people bitter without necessity. > > Note that if Anet wanted to make WvW more competitive and reward skills they absolutely could. It's not that the game mode is less challenging, if you play it seriously it's not, but some will never fully understand how you can stand out and think it's easy. The problem with WvW is that many people are clueless when they're asked to take appropriate initiatives to ensure the overall plan works and adapt to an ever changing situation, brain checks raids simply don't have, as they're all about learning the dance and mash the same 5 keys (aka "rotation") over and over until you die, fall asleep or get bored. Yes learning the dance can be long, frustrating and sometimes you wish you were doing something else with your life, but that's not the point. The point is that it's repetition, not skill, just like long grinds aren't difficult, just long. > > So the question is why is repetition and mimicking rewarded when thinking every second about what you're doing isn't, in other words, if skill was really the point, why do raids have the first legendaries and WvW doesn't? Raids are in no way the epitome of challenge (repetition has never been difficult per se - you can create bots to defeat raids but not win in WvW), so, why is that? > > The answer is, it's not skill that is rewarded, it's how much bs you're willing to deal with. Raid rewards are a pittance for how much of the kitten sandwich you agreed to eat. Or to put it politely, it's the social challenges that are rewarded. Do social challenges deserve the first legendaries for everything? This is clearly open to debate as there is no normal or expected answer. I just want to put an end to the delusional narrative that raids are the most difficult content ever, because it's clearly not. I love when people who clearly do not play either game mode give their view on them. Cudos, you have shown that you neither raid (which we already knew) nor properly wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. And the fact that there are no achievements tied to it clearly shows that it's not considered by devs to be on equal footing with the raid set. > > The ring ended up locked behind raids because they are simply treated better than any other part of the game. > You realize the complaints didn't start when the armor came out right? Just like we have complaints about the ring that isn't out. They started before hot was launched, when legendary armor was announced. So if the complaints swayed Anet, they had 2+ years. Yeah your skin argument is a load of bull. Pvp and wvw gets unique skins without dropping 2k gold on gifts of blood/etc. Literally its like if raiders could unlock the skin for 150 LI, and upgrade to legendary for 2k gold only if they wanted to. Basically, your complaining about the option of choice. That's ridiculous, and it just proves that there is literally no pleasing you people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. Are you telling me legendary PvP and WvW armor don't have exclusive to the mode skins?, because that's a blatant lie. Or are you meaning to say you want them to be transforming skins too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > > > > > > And as we are probably now agreeing on that the question at least for me boils down if you are an advocate of the idea that the most organized activity should exclusively net the highest or in this case the best QoL reward or not. And as a secondary battle line if you think skins are a valid reward or not. > > > > > > > I am personally not an advocate of the first idea and totally uninterested in exclusive skins on the other hand. As it stands now, it is a rather good development for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Still it kind of irks me if someone equals the missing will to organize yourself in a group with lazyness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My personal opinion is this: > > > > > > - skins are a valuable reward in GW2 depending on their rarity > > > > > > - raids being the pve method of acquisition of legendary armor is fine > > > > > > - if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come > > > > > > - I think legendary armor has absolutely nothing to do as spvp reward. It's completely useless in that game mode and was only added for cross game mode play and basically to entice people to play spvp > > > > > > - I think an exotic or ascended set of spvp exclusive skins would have been way better than legendary armor. spvp used to be about unique cool looking skins, now it's devolved into a pure farm which most people just trod through without actually enjoying it > > > > > > - legendary armor in wvw is fine and I would love to see more legendarys in that game mode, though the acquisition is a problem since wvw requires 0 skill to get rewards, only time and dedication (which I am fine with but it does pose a problem reward wise) > > > > > > > > > > I agree with many points but, I fail to see why it poses a problem to give rewards over time like in WvW. Should a mediocre employee be forbidden to save for retirement because he did not have the skill to get rewards from work? The same logic is very weird to be applied to raids in: > > > > > > > > > > _" if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come"_ > > > > > > > > > > You **shouldn't** need that much incentive to play the **ultimate challenge** game mode. There is literally nothing to do after you finish it (hence the "ultimate" part), that would require more work or more investment than it already did. When you're done with a raid (or the CMs if you're into that), you're done, and whatever else you do is just repetition. This is okay because challenges have a lot of replay value, you can strive to get better times and strive to get a title for clearing it without anyone dying or such, but a more "material" reward like the only two-phase armor in the game **should never be locked to raids**. > > > > > > > > > > I love how well designed raids are. I love that more content is getting the raid treatment with Anet attempting to salvage the lack of interesting mechanics. I love the art design and love most things concerning raids. But I hate how over the top they went with the reward structure (you can't put it on farm status yet you get the only unique skin legendary armor? bad combination guys), and I believe this is the major reason for all the bitterness from the rest of the community. > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, raids are still timegated all the same with how you can only complete them weekly and there is a shard/crystal cap. In WvW you can get the sublime mistforged armor for prestige after playing for about 1 year and a half (you can get it down to 6 months with boosters and zerging), and as a WvW player I think that's pretty deserving of being considered an achievement. Anet already knows that work-over-time should be rewarded just like skilled work because this is a videogame and not real life demanding results from us, they just purposefully avoided this in Raids and made a lot of people bitter without necessity. > > > > > > > > Note that if Anet wanted to make WvW more competitive and reward skills they absolutely could. It's not that the game mode is less challenging, if you play it seriously it's not, but some will never fully understand how you can stand out and think it's easy. The problem with WvW is that many people are clueless when they're asked to take appropriate initiatives to ensure the overall plan works and adapt to an ever changing situation, brain checks raids simply don't have, as they're all about learning the dance and mash the same 5 keys (aka "rotation") over and over until you die, fall asleep or get bored. Yes learning the dance can be long, frustrating and sometimes you wish you were doing something else with your life, but that's not the point. The point is that it's repetition, not skill, just like long grinds aren't difficult, just long. > > > > > > > > So the question is why is repetition and mimicking rewarded when thinking every second about what you're doing isn't, in other words, if skill was really the point, why do raids have the first legendaries and WvW doesn't? Raids are in no way the epitome of challenge (repetition has never been difficult per se - you can create bots to defeat raids but not win in WvW), so, why is that? > > > > > > > > The answer is, it's not skill that is rewarded, it's how much bs you're willing to deal with. Raid rewards are a pittance for how much of the kitten sandwich you agreed to eat. Or to put it politely, it's the social challenges that are rewarded. Do social challenges deserve the first legendaries for everything? This is clearly open to debate as there is no normal or expected answer. I just want to put an end to the delusional narrative that raids are the most difficult content ever, because it's clearly not. > > > > > > I love when people who clearly do not play either game mode give their view on them. > > > > > > Cudos, you have shown that you neither raid (which we already knew) nor properly wvw. > > > > That's all you have to say? Because I kind of know you're looking for a cop out strategy as there's no real counterpoint to make. FYI I have ~10 years of raiding in MMOs (just not this one, I'm really tired of all the pointless drama and biting my lips when someone reaches a new high in stupidity now) and I'm in an active and old WvW guild. You probably don't know much about this mode since you most likely play one of the easy mode range class. But that's fine, keep the ad hominem coming, I was totally expecting it. > > I gave you an argument and you ignored it, choosing to change the subject and conjure ad hominem in something that looks like a pretty accurate critique. > > I fundamentally disagree about raids being the ultimate challenge needing the absolute best material rewards. The WvW skill ceiling is much higher, accessibility isn't a problem to me, if someone wants to be bad and take 3 years to farm WvW a single shiny, it's not my business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelgm.4315 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. > > Are you telling me legendary PvP and WvW armor don't have exclusive to the mode skins?, because that's a blatant lie. Or are you meaning to say you want them to be transforming skins too? Legendary armor in PvP and WvW are **not** unique skins. They use skins that were available long before, it was merely given the option to upgrade them to legendary quality. Whether or not Anet only decided to go for it after realizing not many people were going to raid, that's another matter. The fact is, legendary armor for these modes was clearly not planned from the start, and yes, it would make perfect sense to have sets of transforming legendary armor for WvW and PvP as well (instead of reusing the already available skins, as prestigious as they might be). There is no immediate reason for this asymmetry other than lack of planning or, at the very least, that legendary armor was intended only and exclusively for raids even after release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > > > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > > > > > > > And as we are probably now agreeing on that the question at least for me boils down if you are an advocate of the idea that the most organized activity should exclusively net the highest or in this case the best QoL reward or not. And as a secondary battle line if you think skins are a valid reward or not. > > > > > > > > I am personally not an advocate of the first idea and totally uninterested in exclusive skins on the other hand. As it stands now, it is a rather good development for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Still it kind of irks me if someone equals the missing will to organize yourself in a group with lazyness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My personal opinion is this: > > > > > > > - skins are a valuable reward in GW2 depending on their rarity > > > > > > > - raids being the pve method of acquisition of legendary armor is fine > > > > > > > - if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come > > > > > > > - I think legendary armor has absolutely nothing to do as spvp reward. It's completely useless in that game mode and was only added for cross game mode play and basically to entice people to play spvp > > > > > > > - I think an exotic or ascended set of spvp exclusive skins would have been way better than legendary armor. spvp used to be about unique cool looking skins, now it's devolved into a pure farm which most people just trod through without actually enjoying it > > > > > > > - legendary armor in wvw is fine and I would love to see more legendarys in that game mode, though the acquisition is a problem since wvw requires 0 skill to get rewards, only time and dedication (which I am fine with but it does pose a problem reward wise) > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with many points but, I fail to see why it poses a problem to give rewards over time like in WvW. Should a mediocre employee be forbidden to save for retirement because he did not have the skill to get rewards from work? The same logic is very weird to be applied to raids in: > > > > > > > > > > > > _" if there were an alternative method in pve (for armor), it would have to be massively time gated as well as expensive (to offset the lack of difficulty), though I doubt this will ever come"_ > > > > > > > > > > > > You **shouldn't** need that much incentive to play the **ultimate challenge** game mode. There is literally nothing to do after you finish it (hence the "ultimate" part), that would require more work or more investment than it already did. When you're done with a raid (or the CMs if you're into that), you're done, and whatever else you do is just repetition. This is okay because challenges have a lot of replay value, you can strive to get better times and strive to get a title for clearing it without anyone dying or such, but a more "material" reward like the only two-phase armor in the game **should never be locked to raids**. > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how well designed raids are. I love that more content is getting the raid treatment with Anet attempting to salvage the lack of interesting mechanics. I love the art design and love most things concerning raids. But I hate how over the top they went with the reward structure (you can't put it on farm status yet you get the only unique skin legendary armor? bad combination guys), and I believe this is the major reason for all the bitterness from the rest of the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, raids are still timegated all the same with how you can only complete them weekly and there is a shard/crystal cap. In WvW you can get the sublime mistforged armor for prestige after playing for about 1 year and a half (you can get it down to 6 months with boosters and zerging), and as a WvW player I think that's pretty deserving of being considered an achievement. Anet already knows that work-over-time should be rewarded just like skilled work because this is a videogame and not real life demanding results from us, they just purposefully avoided this in Raids and made a lot of people bitter without necessity. > > > > > > > > > > Note that if Anet wanted to make WvW more competitive and reward skills they absolutely could. It's not that the game mode is less challenging, if you play it seriously it's not, but some will never fully understand how you can stand out and think it's easy. The problem with WvW is that many people are clueless when they're asked to take appropriate initiatives to ensure the overall plan works and adapt to an ever changing situation, brain checks raids simply don't have, as they're all about learning the dance and mash the same 5 keys (aka "rotation") over and over until you die, fall asleep or get bored. Yes learning the dance can be long, frustrating and sometimes you wish you were doing something else with your life, but that's not the point. The point is that it's repetition, not skill, just like long grinds aren't difficult, just long. > > > > > > > > > > So the question is why is repetition and mimicking rewarded when thinking every second about what you're doing isn't, in other words, if skill was really the point, why do raids have the first legendaries and WvW doesn't? Raids are in no way the epitome of challenge (repetition has never been difficult per se - you can create bots to defeat raids but not win in WvW), so, why is that? > > > > > > > > > > The answer is, it's not skill that is rewarded, it's how much bs you're willing to deal with. Raid rewards are a pittance for how much of the kitten sandwich you agreed to eat. Or to put it politely, it's the social challenges that are rewarded. Do social challenges deserve the first legendaries for everything? This is clearly open to debate as there is no normal or expected answer. I just want to put an end to the delusional narrative that raids are the most difficult content ever, because it's clearly not. > > > > > > > > I love when people who clearly do not play either game mode give their view on them. > > > > > > > > Cudos, you have shown that you neither raid (which we already knew) nor properly wvw. > > > > > > That's all you have to say? Because I kind of know you're looking for a cop out strategy as there's no real counterpoint to make. FYI I have ~10 years of raiding in MMOs (just not this one, I'm really tired of all the pointless drama and biting my lips when someone reaches a new high in stupidity now) and I'm in an active and old WvW guild. You probably don't know much about this mode since you most likely play one of the easy mode range class. But that's fine, keep the ad hominem coming, I was totally expecting it. > > > > I gave you an argument and you ignored it, choosing to change the subject and conjure ad hominem in something that looks like a pretty accurate critique. > > > > > > I fundamentally disagree about raids being the ultimate challenge needing the absolute best material rewards. The WvW skill ceiling is much higher, accessibility isn't a problem to me, if someone wants to be bad and take 3 years to farm WvW a single shiny, it's not my business. That is your right, you can have any opinion you want. I, having both hundreds of hours of raid experience and hundreds of hours of WvW below my belt, disagree. Raids require a certain commitment and skill as well as social interaction etc. (mind you I'd agree that raids are not that difficult pure difficulty wise, but let's not get that topic started here). WvW requires presence. Being good at wvw has an infinitely smaller effect on your rewards versus time spent. This was only enforced with the new system in place which hands out progression on a fixed timed cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. And the fact that there are no achievements tied to it clearly shows that it's not considered by devs to be on equal footing with the raid set. > > The ring ended up locked behind raids because they are simply treated better than any other part of the game. > Treated better? I’m pretty sure open world PvE got the first ever Legendary Trinket just saying history proves you wrong (also don’t forget Open World PvE has more Legendaries compared to any other game mode or subtype sooo), now Raids get one and probably WvW and Pvp will get some in a while. There’s always this same undertone to these posts, that two words describe perfectly one starts with a W the other starts with an E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > The ring ended up locked behind raids because they are simply treated better than any other part of the game. > Ever tried to buy Aurora with LI or Magnetite Shards? I'll tell you it doesn't work. Ever tried to buy G1/G2 precursors with LI or Magnetite Shards? That doesn't work either. Ever tried to unlock a Griffon, or any mount, inside a Raid? It doesn't work. Ever tried to unlock Leyline gliding (absolutely required for Xera) only by playing Raids? That doesn't work. Weird way to treat something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > > > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. > > > > Are you telling me legendary PvP and WvW armor don't have exclusive to the mode skins?, because that's a blatant lie. Or are you meaning to say you want them to be transforming skins too? > > Legendary armor in PvP and WvW are **not** unique skins. Yes, they are unique skins to their respective mode. Whether they were avaliable before or not before the introduction to legendary armor is irrelevant if the argument is "they aren't unique skins" because they are, they have no replica cross-mode. The correct way to put it if you're gonna complain about it with logic is **"they aren't brand new skins"** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > > > > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > > > > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > > > > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. > > > > > > Are you telling me legendary PvP and WvW armor don't have exclusive to the mode skins?, because that's a blatant lie. Or are you meaning to say you want them to be transforming skins too? > > > > Legendary armor in PvP and WvW are **not** unique skins. > > Yes, they are unique skins to their respective mode. Whether they were avaliable before or not before the introduction to legendary armor is irrelevant if the argument is "they aren't unique skins" because they are, they have no replica cross-mode. > > The correct way to put it if you're gonna complain about it with logic is **"they aren't brand new skins"** > > Nah, pvp and wvw legend armor are not new skins, just cheap retex...hell i guess is not even a retexture, probably use the same model of Mistforged Armor and Ardent Glorious Armor...yeah pretty lame of Anet to focus so much on pve related stuff and completely ignore sPvP and WvW...who would though that fighting AI would be more rewarding that going against real people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > > > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > > > > > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. > > > > > > > > Are you telling me legendary PvP and WvW armor don't have exclusive to the mode skins?, because that's a blatant lie. Or are you meaning to say you want them to be transforming skins too? > > > > > > Legendary armor in PvP and WvW are **not** unique skins. > > > > Yes, they are unique skins to their respective mode. Whether they were avaliable before or not before the introduction to legendary armor is irrelevant if the argument is "they aren't unique skins" because they are, they have no replica cross-mode. > > > > The correct way to put it if you're gonna complain about it with logic is **"they aren't brand new skins"** > > > > > > Nah, pvp and wvw legend armor are not new skins, just cheap retex...hell i guess is not even a retexture, probably use the same model of Mistforged Armor and Ardent Glorious Armor...yeah pretty lame of Anet to focus so much on pve related stuff and completely ignore sPvP and WvW...who would though that fighting AI would be more rewarding that going against real people Let's see: > Triumphant Hero's armor is a level 80, **WvW-exclusive** Ascended or Exotic armor set. - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Triumphant_Hero%27s_armor > Ardent Glorious armor is a **PvP-exclusive** Ascended armor set that can be acquired from earning rewards in PvP Leagues. - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ardent_Glorious_armor Now unless the wiki is wrong, those 2 sound as though they are exclusive to their respective game modes or are they not? Are they brand new? No. Are they exclusive? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > > > What I find distasteful is that in spite of the consistent complaints about the current iteration of raids in GW2, the devs don't care at all, and in fact seem to be craving for more unrest. Yes, adding a new legendary to raids is fine, in theory, the problem is the timing. Why do raids get the first ring when it's by far the least popular and least accessible game mode? If that was the 3rd or 4th ring, unhappy players would probably not care at all, but it's the first > > > > > > Maybe Anet tests these things on the smaller population first, treating them as beta testers, then releases the content to the larger population? > > > > > > I mean, they did exactly that with legendary armor. Raiders had exclusive access to legendary armor for 3 months before pvp/wvw got it. 3 Months is a pretty typical time between updates for them. > > Nah. Legendary armor for WvW and sPvP was a rushed thing, a result of complains against raid armor being exclusive. That's why it has no armor skin of its own associated to it. And the fact that there are no achievements tied to it clearly shows that it's not considered by devs to be on equal footing with the raid set. > > > > The ring ended up locked behind raids because they are simply treated better than any other part of the game. > > > > Of course it isn't considered to be on equal footing. Raid armor is supposed to be the reward for the ultimate challenge, whereas the PvP/WvW ones do not require any special skills/efforts/achievements to obtain. The one set that actually requires a lot of effort, the Sublime Mistforged, has its own unique skin. First, Raids are not an Ultimate Challenge. If Anet really wanted to reward that, the first legendary armor (and probably the only one with actual skin) would have been obtainable only by winning sPvP tournaments. Second, Sublime Mistforged is not a legendary skin. WvW legendary armor has no skin of its own, it just reuses already preexisting ones. Into the sPvP and WvW legendary armor skins Anet put exactly **zero** effort. Which is really glaring difference when compared to the envoy set, anet spent at least a year (probably more) designing. > @"thrag.9740" said: > You realize the complaints didn't start when the armor came out right? Just like we have complaints about the ring that isn't out. They started before hot was launched, when legendary armor was announced. So if the complaints swayed Anet, they had 2+ years. Those complains started when Anet mentioned in one of the AMAs that they have no intention whatsoever to create any more legendary armor beyond tha Raid one. They said that when Raids were already a thing. Notice, that WvW and sPvP armors are a change to that stance - a change that came only when WvW and sPvP communites rightly complained about it. > @"thrag.9740" said: > Yeah your skin argument is a load of bull. Pvp and wvw gets unique skins without dropping 2k gold on gifts of blood/etc. Literally its like if raiders could unlock the skin for 150 LI, and upgrade to legendary for 2k gold only if they wanted to. They can. Those skins are called _precursor_ armor skins. The difference is that WvW and sPvP legendaries use precursor skins even _after_ upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 > @"Felipe.1807" said: who would though that fighting AI would be more rewarding that going against real people GW2 is a PvE focused game - WvW and PvP are niche content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shard.4791 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 > @"Rennie.6750" said: > > @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said: > > > @Jukens.1693 said: > > > Raids are not available to everyone Anet, unlike Fractals, Open World, WvW and PvP. Whatever put in the raids won't incentivize me to run this content, they don't exist for me period. No instead it just pisses me off completely. There is no telling how many more legendaries Anet is going to put in there for the %1. > > > > Raids are available for those who bought HoT (Wing 1-4) or PoF (Wing 5). > > Also, can we please stop with this 1% kitten? No one but anet has actual numbers. > > > > It's not good to lose your temper over such mundane things. But here we go: https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights > > 1% of the players who bothered registering an API keys (less than 20k players, ie a very very small portion of the playerbase) have been raiding every week. 2.5% of them have been raiding regularly and now have 400 ish Lis. And we're talking about the most dedicated members of the community, because registering an API key is mostly for hardcore players, not for everyone. The thing is, raids are difficult, niche and exclusionary content. That's not an assumption, that's a fact. Since this thread is still going: The same page says that 20% of registered users have enough LI to be capable of completing the raids weekly. 10% have large amount of LIs. How do you know how often people raid? It's not like you have to clear every boss to be considered a raider. 1 boss a week is still raiding. Nor would the LI count matter at all. I took a casual 6 month break from raiding and lost nothing. Just like pvp, wvw, dungeons and fractals people have varying amount of success in them based on their own effort. No different from raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > Yeah your skin argument is a load of bull. Pvp and wvw gets unique skins without dropping 2k gold on gifts of blood/etc. Literally its like if raiders could unlock the skin for 150 LI, and upgrade to legendary for 2k gold only if they wanted to. > They can. Those skins are called _precursor_ armor skins. The difference is that WvW and sPvP legendaries use precursor skins even _after_ upgrade. Here is a composite image I made. Envoy 1,2,3 on the top row, glorious hero and ardent hero on the bottom row. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/302790230576988160/391822566886604800/unknown.png Considering how envoy 1 and 2 are identical, the way I see it is, pve and pvp/wvw players both got 2 sets of armor, the difference is raiders had to pay an extra 2k gold for their second skin. If the pvp players want to be able to swap their stats in pve (because pvp already has built in build templates), they can upgrade for a comparable price. Unless I'm missing something, and you can just recolour glorious hero to look like ardent hero? In which case I would say, pvp/wvw got better skins, because you cant recolor perfected envoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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