More “paths” to legendary gear...

[Raizel.8175]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

 

Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

>

> Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

 

You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> >

> > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

>

> You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

 

True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

 

But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

 

Problem is, this game makes it too goddamn easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

 

I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every goddamn LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > >

> > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> >

> > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

>

> True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

>

> But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

>

> Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

>

> I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

 

I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

 

On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

 

Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > >

> > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> >

> > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> >

> > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> >

> > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> >

> > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

>

> I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

>

> On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

>

> Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

 

No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

 

I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

 

About other arguments you've made:

* I've played MMORPGs that are a lot older than GW2 is and GW2 is still one of the MMORPGs with the strongest efficiency-mentality attached to its endgame-content I've met thus far. Well, reasons are probably an overabundance of content and the megaserver-architecture. Pair that with the too easy base-game-content and you get the result we have in GW2: the game is far too unsociable; it doesn't force people to play together, to communicate. In most other MMORPGs, you always have some downtime between encouters to regenerate HP and/or MP which gives you time to communicate with other people the game has forced you to play with. That way, you actually get a decent friend-list to do stuff with. In GW2, you just put up some LFG with ridiculous entry-requirements and thats it. No communication, just do stuff and be finished. That's not healthy for a MMORPG.

* HoT in its current iteration isn't really that hard. Its actually what ANet should strive for since champion-HPs and meta-events force people to play together which should be mandatory for MMORPGs. While being casual-friendly is inherently a good thing, the game shouldn't be an interactive movie. People should be forced to get to know their own class-mechanics. The game is already very casual-friendly since it basically doesn't feature any kind of gear-progression at all.

* I still firmly believe that the "normal" mode of raids should be content for everyone with skill being the only discriminatory factor while the "challenge" mode (or mystic or hard mode - call it whatever you like) should be the content designed for so called "elite" players and reward them with titles to show off. I dare say that that would be most healthy for raid-content.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > >

> > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > >

> > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > >

> > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > >

> > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > >

> > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> >

> > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> >

> > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> >

> > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

>

> No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

>

> I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

 

Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > > >

> > > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > > >

> > > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > > >

> > > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > > >

> > > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > > >

> > > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> > >

> > > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> > >

> > > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> > >

> > > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

> >

> > No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

> >

> > I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

>

> Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

 

Take that to a different thread. This one is about paths to all legendary gear for every mode.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want.

> >

> > Just remember folks... “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” - Mike O’Brien

>

> What's the whole point of this thread if I may ask?

>

> -There is already legendary armor for all game modes and the only difference is that raid armor has a different skin...if you want the skin then play the content ? And no..I hate raids but I need legendary armor for wvw..so I just do that and craft legendary armor using wvw mode, I don't need the skin, if I want the skin I play the content

 

"the whole point" is located in the very first sentence.

 

Also, what is this hang up on legendary armor? Read... "Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want."... This is about end game gear rewards for every area of the game, and for every player. It's bigger than legendary raid armor.

 

So let's break this down...

 

.... "path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces)"

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_back_item

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_trinket

 

FOR...

 

"every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)"

 

because...

 

reasons.

[Swagger.1459]

double post

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > > >

> > > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > > >

> > > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > > >

> > > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > > >

> > > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > > >

> > > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> > >

> > > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> > >

> > > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> > >

> > > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

> >

> > No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

> >

> > I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

>

> Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

 

Lets be honest: One of the main-reasons people have such ridiculous entry-barriers for raids is because the base-game-content is too easy leading to active raiding players thinking that most people are garbage. It probably sounds harsh, but thats the way it is. Even more brainless content like Palawadan (where you can basically auto atk to success) doesn't help. So why not implement some story-mode for raids which people have to do solo? Sure, you have to tone done stuff so its soloable and some mechanics are somewhat tricky to teach in a solo-scenario, but you can teach people some basic understanding of how stuff works that way. Some other games do it that way and it actually works quite well. Of course, those raid-story-instances need to have a decent but reasonable difficulty for them to actually be some proof of skill, but that should be doable for ANet. Having such requirements as raid-eligibility could lead to (at least some) people stop putting up ridiculous entry-barriers since those players who are eligible to enter raids actually have to have some basic understanding through that raid-wings story-mode. That would turn skill into the discriminating factor and not some stuff like a bazillion LI/KP. Currently, I'd rather get into raids if I buy them and get LI/KP rather than through skill and thats just stupid.

 

Edit: To make it clear: The reward for completing the story mode should only be the eligiblity to enter the actual thing. Raid-rewards themselves should stay locked behind actually doing them.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > > > >

> > > > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > > > >

> > > > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > > > >

> > > > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > > > >

> > > > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> > > >

> > > > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> > > >

> > > > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> > > >

> > > > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

> > >

> > > No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

> > >

> > > I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

> >

> > Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

>

> Take that to a different thread. This one is about paths to all legendary gear for every mode.

 

But isn't the reason for people wanting more PvE-paths for legendary armor because they can't get into raids? I do think that it would be a fair consensus if raids were far more accessible than they currently are so everyone could get the armor set through raids because they're open to them. Not that I wouldn't mind a fractal-version though. That would actually be great.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

So why not implement some story-mode for raids which people have to do solo? Sure, you have to tone done stuff so its soloable and some mechanics are somewhat tricky to teach in a solo-scenario, but you can teach people some basic understanding of how stuff works that way.

 

The thing is, a lot of the mechanics don't translate well to a solo scenario. And even those that do would be radically different, so they won't prepare people for actual raiding. I've said it before - only raids will make you ready to raid. It's true that you can learn some basics in a less challenging environment, but that's the other thing - such environment already exists. Fractals of the Mists. They do precisely that - they take players from the '1-1-1-1...' spam and let them progress to fights featuring actual mechanics. Doing easy-mode raids won't do any more. It can't.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> The thing is, a lot of the mechanics don't translate well to a solo scenario. And even those that do would be radically different, so they won't prepare people for actual raiding. I've said it before - only raids will make you ready to raid. It's true that you can learn some basics in a less challenging environment, but that's the other thing - such environment already exists. Fractals of the Mists. They do precisely that - they take players from the '1-1-1-1...' spam and let them progress to fights featuring actual mechanics. Doing easy-mode raids won't do any more. It can't.

 

True, you probably can't make a solo-version of every encounter, but it should be possible for a lot of encounters. Game-developers also get paid for being creative anyway, so it is reasonable to expect some creative approach to solving that issue. I also disagree with fractals being less challenging than raids. I'd actually argue that certain t4-fractals are a lot harder than various raid-encounters. Nonetheless, fractals wont prepare anyone for raids and they can't be used as a means to get into raids. Fractals also have their own accessibility-problems and suffer even more from the efficiency-mentality and from the bad PvE-balancing than raids do. I also think you're to reserved towards the story-mode-idea. Like I said, it does work in other games. It could also work here. You wont know until you try it though.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> > > > >

> > > > > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

> > > >

> > > > No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

> > > >

> > > > I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

> > >

> > > Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

> >

> > Take that to a different thread. This one is about paths to all legendary gear for every mode.

>

> But isn't the reason for people wanting more PvE-paths for legendary armor because they can't get into raids? I do think that it would be a fair consensus if raids were far more accessible than they currently are so everyone could get the armor set through raids because they're open to them. Not that I wouldn't mind a fractal-version though. That would actually be great.

 

Read the op. This isn’t about raid difficulty settings or story mode.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community.

 

I have noticed this as well, but I wonder if the raid selling is a part of this problem, in last games I played, getting into raids was not hard for the most part, Know what you need, Know how to play your build. And while in those games elitism, efficiency, meta junkies were always there, they were often the smaller part of the overall raid community. As you said, there was always a healthy turn over of veteran raiders welcoming new players into the raid scene. But you tagged a good point of consideration, it does seems like in GW2 the elitist make up the bulk of the raid community.

 

> I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content.

 

While this may be very true for some, others, like myself, came to GW2 to get away from raids, if I wanted to Raid I have entire communities I could return to in other MMO's, and run very dynamic and involved raids, till my fingers bled, enjoying the wonders of rare named loot and all that jazz that comes with doing raids. The whole attraction of GW2 to me, was that it did not have that kind of environment and content.

 

To each their own on that.. but I think there is just a whole group of people in this game that came here to get away from that kind of content and culture.

 

Now that it is here.. well.. to be honest.. at this point.. In for a Penny.. in for a Pound.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > The thing is, a lot of the mechanics don't translate well to a solo scenario. And even those that do would be radically different, so they won't prepare people for actual raiding. I've said it before - only raids will make you ready to raid. It's true that you can learn some basics in a less challenging environment, but that's the other thing - such environment already exists. Fractals of the Mists. They do precisely that - they take players from the '1-1-1-1...' spam and let them progress to fights featuring actual mechanics. Doing easy-mode raids won't do any more. It can't.

>

> True, you probably can't make a solo-version of every encounter, but it should be possible for a lot of encounters. Game-developers also get paid for being creative anyway, so it is reasonable to expect some creative approach to solving that issue. I also disagree with fractals being less challenging than raids. I'd actually argue that certain t4-fractals are a lot harder than various raid-encounters. Nonetheless, fractals wont prepare anyone for raids and they can't be used as a means to get into raids. Fractals also have their own accessibility-problems and suffer even more from the efficiency-mentality and from the bad PvE-balancing than raids do. I also think you're to reserved towards the story-mode-idea. Like I said, it does work in other games. It could also work here. You wont know until you try it though.

 

T1/2/3 -> T4 -> cm/raid is what I meant. T1 is barely more challenging than open world, fractal cms are comparable to raids, so there's your progression.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

> > > > >

> > > > > No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

> > > >

> > > > Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

> > >

> > > Take that to a different thread. This one is about paths to all legendary gear for every mode.

> >

> > But isn't the reason for people wanting more PvE-paths for legendary armor because they can't get into raids? I do think that it would be a fair consensus if raids were far more accessible than they currently are so everyone could get the armor set through raids because they're open to them. Not that I wouldn't mind a fractal-version though. That would actually be great.

>

> Read the op. This isn’t about raid difficulty settings or story mode.

 

I read the OP. You want legendary armor in PvE. Raids basically are PvE; you even have to do stuff for the legendary raid-armor in HoT-maps. Raids are considered to be another game-mode though. I explained why I think that that's the case and brought up ideas as to how to solve that problem. Since I played various MMORPGs over the last decade and since I'm interested in game-concepts, I also know that MMORPGs are all about manipulation people, about subtly forcing people to do certain content. It's quite fair to force people to do raid-content by locking a certain armor-set behin that kind of content. What's not fair is the lack of accessibility to that content which is cutting of the majority of people from said reward. That's the problem I want to see fixed.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

> > > > >

> > > > > Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

> > > >

> > > > Take that to a different thread. This one is about paths to all legendary gear for every mode.

> > >

> > > But isn't the reason for people wanting more PvE-paths for legendary armor because they can't get into raids? I do think that it would be a fair consensus if raids were far more accessible than they currently are so everyone could get the armor set through raids because they're open to them. Not that I wouldn't mind a fractal-version though. That would actually be great.

> >

> > Read the op. This isn’t about raid difficulty settings or story mode.

>

> I read the OP. You want legendary armor in PvE. Raids basically are PvE; you even have to do stuff for the legendary raid-armor in HoT-maps. Raids are considered to be another game-mode though. I explained why I think that that's the case and brought up ideas as to how to solve that problem. Since I played various MMORPGs over the last decade and since I'm interested in game-concepts, I also know that MMORPGs are all about manipulation people, about subtly forcing people to do certain content. It's quite fair to force people to do raid-content by locking a certain armor-set behin that kind of content. What's not fair is the lack of accessibility to that content which is cutting of the majority of people from said reward. That's the problem I want to see fixed.

 

I doubt you read it... Here, I'll help you...

 

"Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want."...

 

This is about end game gear rewards for every area of the game, and for every player. It's bigger than legendary raid armor.

 

So let's break this down...

 

"path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces)"

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_back_item

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_trinket

 

FOR...

 

"every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)"

 

because...

 

reasons.

 

 

And the actual quote for emphasis...

 

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want.

>

> Just remember folks... “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” - Mike O’Brien

 

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > The thing is, a lot of the mechanics don't translate well to a solo scenario. And even those that do would be radically different, so they won't prepare people for actual raiding. I've said it before - only raids will make you ready to raid. It's true that you can learn some basics in a less challenging environment, but that's the other thing - such environment already exists. Fractals of the Mists. They do precisely that - they take players from the '1-1-1-1...' spam and let them progress to fights featuring actual mechanics. Doing easy-mode raids won't do any more. It can't.

> >

> > True, you probably can't make a solo-version of every encounter, but it should be possible for a lot of encounters. Game-developers also get paid for being creative anyway, so it is reasonable to expect some creative approach to solving that issue. I also disagree with fractals being less challenging than raids. I'd actually argue that certain t4-fractals are a lot harder than various raid-encounters. Nonetheless, fractals wont prepare anyone for raids and they can't be used as a means to get into raids. Fractals also have their own accessibility-problems and suffer even more from the efficiency-mentality and from the bad PvE-balancing than raids do. I also think you're to reserved towards the story-mode-idea. Like I said, it does work in other games. It could also work here. You wont know until you try it though.

>

> T1/2/3 -> T4 -> cm/raid is what I meant. T1 is barely more challenging than open world, fractal cms are comparable to raids, so there's your progression.

 

Could be me, but I dare say that 99/100 cm are far more challenging than raids; maybe not like raid-cms, but definitely more challenging than the normal stuff. Problem is that besides raids and fractals, there is almost no sense of difficulty-diversity in PvE-content; especially not in OW-content and thats kinda sad. I really wish there would be more meta-events like Serpents Ire where people actually have to put in some effort.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > The thing is, a lot of the mechanics don't translate well to a solo scenario. And even those that do would be radically different, so they won't prepare people for actual raiding. I've said it before - only raids will make you ready to raid. It's true that you can learn some basics in a less challenging environment, but that's the other thing - such environment already exists. Fractals of the Mists. They do precisely that - they take players from the '1-1-1-1...' spam and let them progress to fights featuring actual mechanics. Doing easy-mode raids won't do any more. It can't.

> > >

> > > True, you probably can't make a solo-version of every encounter, but it should be possible for a lot of encounters. Game-developers also get paid for being creative anyway, so it is reasonable to expect some creative approach to solving that issue. I also disagree with fractals being less challenging than raids. I'd actually argue that certain t4-fractals are a lot harder than various raid-encounters. Nonetheless, fractals wont prepare anyone for raids and they can't be used as a means to get into raids. Fractals also have their own accessibility-problems and suffer even more from the efficiency-mentality and from the bad PvE-balancing than raids do. I also think you're to reserved towards the story-mode-idea. Like I said, it does work in other games. It could also work here. You wont know until you try it though.

> >

> > T1/2/3 -> T4 -> cm/raid is what I meant. T1 is barely more challenging than open world, fractal cms are comparable to raids, so there's your progression.

>

> Could be me, but I dare say that 99/100 cm are far more challenging than raids; maybe not like raid-cms, but definitely more challenging than the normal stuff. Problem is that besides raids and fractals, there is almost no sense of difficulty-diversity in PvE-content; especially not in OW-content and thats kinda sad. I really wish there would be more meta-events like Serpents Ire where people actually have to put in some effort.

 

I'm with you on the OW stuff - that'd be great.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

> > > > >

> > > > > Take that to a different thread. This one is about paths to all legendary gear for every mode.

> > > >

> > > > But isn't the reason for people wanting more PvE-paths for legendary armor because they can't get into raids? I do think that it would be a fair consensus if raids were far more accessible than they currently are so everyone could get the armor set through raids because they're open to them. Not that I wouldn't mind a fractal-version though. That would actually be great.

> > >

> > > Read the op. This isn’t about raid difficulty settings or story mode.

> >

> > I read the OP. You want legendary armor in PvE. Raids basically are PvE; you even have to do stuff for the legendary raid-armor in HoT-maps. Raids are considered to be another game-mode though. I explained why I think that that's the case and brought up ideas as to how to solve that problem. Since I played various MMORPGs over the last decade and since I'm interested in game-concepts, I also know that MMORPGs are all about manipulation people, about subtly forcing people to do certain content. It's quite fair to force people to do raid-content by locking a certain armor-set behin that kind of content. What's not fair is the lack of accessibility to that content which is cutting of the majority of people from said reward. That's the problem I want to see fixed.

>

> I doubt you read it... Here, I'll help you...

>

> "Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want."...

>

> This is about end game gear rewards for every area of the game, and for every player. It's bigger than legendary raid armor.

>

> So let's break this down...

>

> "path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces)"

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_back_item

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_trinket

>

> FOR...

>

> "every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)"

>

> because...

>

> reasons.

>

>

> And the actual quote for emphasis...

>

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want.

> >

> > Just remember folks... “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” - Mike O’Brien

>

>

 

Seriously, I read what you wrote. We already have an OW legendary trinket and basically every legendary weapon is OW-stuff. Ad Infinitum isn't that hard to get either since you only have to do t3 fractals at maximum; not even t4 or 99/100 cm. You can't expect that ANet implements some OW legendary armor; that would be overkill. I'm all for fractal legendary armor if you have to do t4 fractals for that one (I'd exclude 99/100 cm though), but OW legendary armor? I don't know. I can only repeat myself: locking legendary armor behind raids is ok; the lack of accessiblity to that content isn't and should be fixed. If ANet doesn't want to fix that problem (and only then), they should implement an alternative PvE-method. And if they add an alternative, I want it to actually require that you have to play together with other people - I mean: its an MMORPG.

[Sarrs.4831]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

>Legendary Armor (which has unique and special stats and abilities) behind a Raid, goes against the very foundation of their design principals.

 

But it doesn't really have those things, you just have to pay different costs to get them.

It doesn't provide unique stats or unique statspreads.

The abilities it has - rune saving and stat changing - aren't actually unique. You can recreate them more efficiently by having multiple sets of ascended gear; it costs less money and takes less clicks to switch from one ascended set to another ascended set than it does to switch stats using the dropdown, and it costs drastically less gold. It costs bagspace, but it's more efficient to get to 320 slots than to make legendary armor, and if you're at 320 slots and you're at a loss of where to get more bagspace, account-wide slot & bank contract are a competitive alternative; it costs more but it's more versatile.

 

> Now if you wanted some WoW _light_ clone, this was not really supposed to be your game. This was designed to be the casuals game.

 

Dungeons were always intended to be difficult content, not casual content, which required premade groups to effectively complete. They missed that mark, so ANet added fractals and raids. By all appearances, GW2 did not appear to be intended to be a casual-only game, and building a casual-only game is, in my estimation, bound to end poorly.

 

I want to be clear that I don't actually mind if they add a legendary armor set to open world PvE, or Fractals, or wherever, but you're making poor arguments for it.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> >Legendary Armor (which has unique and special stats and abilities) behind a Raid, goes against the very foundation of their design principals.

>

> But it doesn't really have those things, you just have to pay different costs to get them.

> It doesn't provide unique stats or unique statspreads.

> The abilities it has - rune saving and stat changing - aren't actually unique. You can recreate them more efficiently by having multiple sets of ascended gear; it costs less money and takes less clicks to switch from one ascended set to another ascended set than it does to switch stats using the dropdown, and it costs drastically less gold. It costs bagspace, but it's more efficient to get to 320 slots than to make legendary armor, and if you're at 320 slots and you're at a loss of where to get more bagspace, account-wide slot & bank contract are a competitive alternative; it costs more but it's more versatile.

>

> > Now if you wanted some WoW _light_ clone, this was not really supposed to be your game. This was designed to be the casuals game.

>

> Dungeons were always intended to be difficult content, not casual content, which required premade groups to effectively complete. They missed that mark, so ANet added fractals and raids. By all appearances, GW2 did not appear to be intended to be a casual-only game, and building a casual-only game is, in my estimation, bound to end poorly.

>

> I want to be clear that I don't actually mind if they add a legendary armor set to open world PvE, or Fractals, or wherever, but you're making poor arguments for it.

 

Lets be honest: The main reason for legendary stuff will always be prestige. People want to feel awesome in MMORPGs; they want to feel special and unique. It's why Fashion Wars works as good as it does.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > However, is pleasing a _size unknown_ demographic via a reward system that may be time intensive the best use of resources?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it would be since it could fix unhealthy gaps which have formed inside the community because of the way ANet implemented raid-content. Don't misunderstand me please. Raid-content in itself is fine, but ANet implemented raid-content in GW2 in one of the worst ways possible which led to us having some kind of two-class society. What people currently see though is that raid-content is getting pushed further, e.g. by inconsistencies in rewards like trinkets from the first raid-wing having PoF-stats.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You'd always end up with the player separation you speak of. There will *always* be those who aren't interested in the challenge. You can't change that, so the separation will always be there, it's a natural result. It also existed before raids - the dungeon speedrun meta for instance. What raids (and later fractal CMs) actually did is to draw more people into the group which is interested in challenge.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > True, there always will be people that don't want to participate in challenging content.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > But I firmly believe that there are quite a lot of people in GW2 that want to do challenging content, though they can't because of ridiculously high entry-barriers. Considering discussions about raids in this forum, I often see accusations that people who came from other games ruined GW2 because of some sort of raiding and/or efficiency mentality. I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now and I've been through a lot of MMORPGs. Truth to be told, no game I played thus far even remotely had such high entry-barriers to endgame-content (which are raids and t4/cm-fractals in GW2) than GW2. Actually, in most MMORPGs its fairly sufficient if you have decent stats and some knowledge of your own class and the boss you're facing. This leads to a healthy cycle of "veterans" teaching "newbies" stuff which in turn teach other "newbies" stuff. In GW2 though, it feels like the raiding-community separated itself far too strongly from the rest of the community. And yes, I do understand that people want to get stuff done, but the efficiency-mentality in MMORPGs has gone too far where MMORPGs in general have become more of a job rather than a game you have fun with. (Maybe GW2 has too much content due to downscaling that this mentality is as strong as it is in GW2?)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Problem is, this game makes it too kitten easy to exclude people; its far too comfortable. I can only repeat myself: The ability to post your LI/KP is just utter nonsense. Basic raid-content should be for the masses while CMs should be for the "elite" (they have titles for that). That would be healthy. Another problem is the dismal PvE-balancing in this game and the way ANet introduced raid-content. They really should have gone for a softer method, making OW- and fractal-content more and more challenging so people are prepared for raids (even though I think that t4-fractals are more difficult than most raids). I also think that ANets trinity-concept is nonsense. It doesn't just have the same problems as other trinity-based games in which certain classes are overrepresentated/mandatory, it actually worsens them. Some classes in this game are far too omnipotent. We all know it. We probably all also know that this game needs a fundamental PvE-overhaul/rebalancing to make raiding/fractals healthier.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I really think people wouldn't be upset about raidlocked legendary armor if they could actually get into that content. The inaccessiblity probably wont change though, so the only real solution would be to add another legendary armor set for basic PvE-activities. I mean, at least I wouldn't have a problem with raidlocked legendary armor if I could get into the content. I'm playing the "wrong" specialization though and don't have a bazillion LI/KP (which I can't have to begin with since I'm only playing the game for approx. half a year). I mean, I could play Chrono and Druid and would at least get into "training"-runs, but I finally want to be able to play what I like to play and its not like what I'm playing isn't viable. I also have the "problem" to have a job, thus I'm not available 24/7. I also don't understand why every kitten LFG-squad tries to be as hardcore as possible while thats just nonsense. Why are easy but reliable dps-builds like sbsbsb or heal-buils like support-fb so underrated?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I don't think the "efficiency" mentality is stronger here than it is in any other game. It could be weaker in a **newer** game, but any game of this age will have the exact same conflicts. The reason is, novelty wears off. You can only replay a piece of content so many times before it gets routine.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On the topic of balancing, note that ANet **did** try to make OW content harder, with HoT. To this day we still get new topics in the forum complaining it's too hard. A lot of casual players **do not want** to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine. This is why I don't agree raids should have been tuned for the general population. Raids are fine as they are - the top-tier challenging content for those who seek that. Also note that for the general population, there *is* some kind of equivalent - the world bosses. Here you go - it requires many players, and it feels epic when you do it for a first time. Pretty much what raid does, except totally accessible, literally to anyone. However, this accessibility is precisely why you can't have significant rewards tied to them. It will devalue greatly them, as well as everything in the same category/tier.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Your last point is valid - it is silly to reject reliable builds. Especially in pugs, and especially since the players who can play the "top" builds well enough to actually make a difference from a mediocre player on a reliable build most likely play in statics and won't be interested in pugs anyway. But that's a problem of the players, not the game. And I guess you can't force people to be smarter.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I guess you've misunderstood me?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don't want raids to be toned down; they're fine the way they are. Coming from multiple other MMORPGs, I guess I'm at least somewhat qualified to say that GW2s raids aren't all that difficult? Sure, there are some encounters with annoying mechanics, but I wouldn't say that they're overly difficult per se. I just want raids to be more accessible to everyone. The stuff about posting LI and/or KP is rather unhealthy for the game since it excludes people on an unreasonable basis (and fully locks out new players even if they had the skill). I think there should be other and "fair" entry-barriers like maybe some kind of combination of gear-score (like requiring full ascended gear) and having to do the story-mode of each raid first (where people have to learn mechanics - and bosses wont reset when you die so stuff wont be as easy as story-content) to be eligible to enter that raid wing. (Maybe some kind of Blade & Souls Mushins Tower wouldn't be bad either. Thats a solo-instance where you have to do some challenging stuff to actually learn your class and progress further.)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please elaborate a bit on your ideas about story mode. How do you think they'll teach players mechanics and be more accessible in the same time?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Take that to a different thread. This one is about paths to all legendary gear for every mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > But isn't the reason for people wanting more PvE-paths for legendary armor because they can't get into raids? I do think that it would be a fair consensus if raids were far more accessible than they currently are so everyone could get the armor set through raids because they're open to them. Not that I wouldn't mind a fractal-version though. That would actually be great.

> > > >

> > > > Read the op. This isn’t about raid difficulty settings or story mode.

> > >

> > > I read the OP. You want legendary armor in PvE. Raids basically are PvE; you even have to do stuff for the legendary raid-armor in HoT-maps. Raids are considered to be another game-mode though. I explained why I think that that's the case and brought up ideas as to how to solve that problem. Since I played various MMORPGs over the last decade and since I'm interested in game-concepts, I also know that MMORPGs are all about manipulation people, about subtly forcing people to do certain content. It's quite fair to force people to do raid-content by locking a certain armor-set behin that kind of content. What's not fair is the lack of accessibility to that content which is cutting of the majority of people from said reward. That's the problem I want to see fixed.

> >

> > I doubt you read it... Here, I'll help you...

> >

> > "Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want."...

> >

> > This is about end game gear rewards for every area of the game, and for every player. It's bigger than legendary raid armor.

> >

> > So let's break this down...

> >

> > "path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces)"

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_back_item

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_trinket

> >

> > FOR...

> >

> > "every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)"

> >

> > because...

> >

> > reasons.

> >

> >

> > And the actual quote for emphasis...

> >

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want.

> > >

> > > Just remember folks... “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” - Mike O’Brien

> >

> >

>

> Seriously, I read what you wrote. We already have an OW legendary trinket and basically every legendary weapon is OW-stuff. Ad Infinitum isn't that hard to get either since you only have to do t3 fractals at maximum; not even t4 or 99/100 cm. You can't expect that ANet implements some OW legendary armor; that would be overkill. I'm all for fractal legendary armor if you have to do t4 fractals for that one (I'd exclude 99/100 cm though), but OW legendary armor? I don't know. I can only repeat myself: locking legendary armor behind raids is ok; the lack of accessiblity to that content isn't and should be fixed. If ANet doesn't want to fix that problem (and only then), they should implement an alternative PvE-method. And if they add an alternative, I want it to actually require that you have to play together with other people - I mean: its an MMORPG.

 

If you know, then you should have said something other than "I read the OP. You want legendary armor in PvE. Raids basically are PvE"...

 

Understanding the topic is generally helpful with avoiding cyclical conversations.

[Sarrs.4831]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> Lets be honest: The main reason for legendary stuff will always be prestige. People want to feel awesome in MMORPGs; they want to feel special and unique. It's why Fashion Wars works as good as it does.

 

I don't think prestige is quite the word for it. Accomplishment, maybe.