Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Sarrs.4831]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Nope. That's just how they choose to play the game, that does not make them *better.*

 

Then why is easy mode needed?

There are many raid groups comfortably beating raids. If they are not better at the game than you are, then you should be able to comfortably beat the raids as well.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

>Then why is easy mode needed?

 

for players that don't enjoy the sort of hassle that more challenging modes entail. That doesn't make these players "worse," it just means that they aren't fans of high-risk, high-failure content. Think of it like roulette. Some people like betting on black or red, other people like betting on individual numbers. The latter has a far higher risk of failure, but that doesn't make the players who choose that option "better players." And if a player does win a single number spin of the wheel, the results he gets from that aren't impossible to match by completing multiple wins of the color model.

 

 

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > I do. And I'm either right, or there's a *very* bad RNG involved, because the chances of failure consistently drop over time spent with the same group.

> > >

> > > That would be because each of them would be improving their own capabilities, but whether they succeed or fail is still largely outside your control

> >

> > You couldn't be more wrong. But please tell me more how the content I play and you don't works.

>

> What would you like to know? Sometimes it's easy to be blinded while on the inside of something, like those raiders who think that other players are actually *impressed* by their raid-rewards, rather than just interested in the work of the designers that *made* those rewards.

 

You really need to stop doing that and with that I mean pretending like you own knowledge and are here to educate every one else. Any semi-rational and/or adult (and many young people) will have run into this type of symptom where person A believes he is all knowing without having any or very limited experience. I believe the English term for such behavior is wise-ass. Sometimes it's better to take a step back or at least add in an "I assume" on things where one is inexperienced on.

 

That's not even getting into the amount of assumptions made in this statement. I would not make assumptions on part of a player base only off of my personal belief or feelings.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> You really need to stop doing that and with that I mean pretending like you own knowledge and are here to educate every one else.

 

It seems to be the standard around here.

 

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Nope. That's just how they choose to play the game, that does not make them *better.*

>

> Then why is easy mode needed?

> There are many raid groups comfortably beating raids.

And there are players that _aren't_ comfortably beating raids. But would want to.

 

> If they are not better at the game than you are, then you should be able to comfortably beat the raids as well.

Being more skilled at the specific mode doesn't make you better. It's just an e-kitten measuring factor.

Notice, that in the end there's no benefit for Anet from players becoming more skilled at a specific gamemode (or even from becoming more skilled in general). They benefit from players finding the game fun, and from them being loyal. None of it requires players to have a certain amount of skill (and, in fact, such a requirement can actually work _against_ the main goals).

 

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > I do. And I'm either right, or there's a *very* bad RNG involved, because the chances of failure consistently drop over time spent with the same group.

> > >

> > > That would be because each of them would be improving their own capabilities, but whether they succeed or fail is still largely outside your control

> >

> > You couldn't be more wrong. But please tell me more how the content I play and you don't works.

>

> What would you like to know? Sometimes it's easy to be blinded while on the inside of something, like those raiders who think that other players are actually *impressed* by their raid-rewards, rather than just interested in the work of the designers that *made* those rewards.

 

I see you jumped again to your favorite topic of raid rewards, which has absolutely no relevance to the point you're commenting.

 

But let me tell you something about the raid rewards. I couldn't care less if other players are impressed or not. I'm impressed myself, and that's enough for me. And I'm impressed because I walked a long path. When I started raiding, I was a clueless scrub. And I didn't even know it.

[Sarrs.4831]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> And there are players that _aren't_ comfortably beating raids. But would want to.

 

If it's just a choice of mode, you should choose to comfortably beat the raid like those raiders are.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Notice, that in the end there's no benefit for Anet from players becoming more skilled at a specific gamemode (or even from becoming more skilled in general). They benefit from players finding the game fun, and from them being loyal. None of it requires players to have a certain amount of skill (and, in fact, such a requirement can actually work _against_ the main goals).

>

>

>

 

That goes completely against peoples aim to improve at tasks and pleasure derived from that. I'm not sure I would agree to this at all.

 

Mastery and honing of skills is an essential part of enjoyment and human nature in almost every aspect of life be it work, hobbies, social life, leisure activities, sports, etc.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

> >

> > GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

>

> It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

 

True, which is why any cry for challenge, is really just a cry for exclusive special loot.

 

I called that years ago when the whining for _challenge_ started, and I said then.. that doing this would end poorly for Anet. Given the post HoT numbers.. it did.

[yann.1946]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

> > >

> > > GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

> >

> > It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

>

> True, which is why any cry for challenge, is really just a cry for exclusive special loot.

>

> I called that years ago when the whining for _challenge_ started, and I said then.. that doing this would end poorly for Anet. Given the post HoT numbers.. it did.

 

Ignoring the two contentdroughts, the fact that HoT was made in less then a year. But sure raids where the problem.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> I called that years ago when the whining for _challenge_ started, and I said then.. that doing this would end poorly for Anet. Given the post HoT numbers.. it did.

 

HoT numbers were fine based on what was left of the playing population when the expansion hit...

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Notice, that in the end there's no benefit for Anet from players becoming more skilled at a specific gamemode (or even from becoming more skilled in general). They benefit from players finding the game fun, and from them being loyal. None of it requires players to have a certain amount of skill (and, in fact, such a requirement can actually work _against_ the main goals).

> >

> >

> >

>

> That goes completely against peoples aim to improve at tasks and pleasure derived from that. I'm not sure I would agree to this at all.

Oh, i'm not saying that anet should prevent people from improving. Or even that they should not give (slight) incentives for that. I'm saying that anet should stop assuming it should be a general goal.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Mastery and honing of skills is an essential part of enjoyment and human nature in almost every aspect of life be it work, hobbies, social life, leisure activities, sports, etc.

That's actually completely untrue. People are completely capable of deriving enjoyment from things they are not interested in the slightest in improving in. Some people like to do sports, other prefer to _watch_ sports (without ever intending of doing said sports themselves).

Mastery and honing of skills may lead to enjoyment, but not only enjoyment is possible without them, but in some cases said honing of skills can lead to _lessened_ enjoyment, if the skills honed weren't those you were interested in.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

> > > >

> > > > GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

> > >

> > > It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

> >

> > True, which is why any cry for challenge, is really just a cry for exclusive special loot.

> >

> > I called that years ago when the whining for _challenge_ started, and I said then.. that doing this would end poorly for Anet. Given the post HoT numbers.. it did.

>

> Ignoring the two contentdroughts, the fact that HoT was made in less then a year. But sure raids where the problem.

 

Oh.. the continent droughts that gave players the option.. _Raids_ or _Suck it_... Oh... that was a work of art, it was like watching a misericorde in action.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Oh.. the continent droughts that gave players the option.. _Raids_ or _Suck it_... Oh... that was a work of art, it was like watching a misericorde in action.

 

Yes, it's most telling that the numbers went up and down according to content drought in _open world/LS release schedule_, not any other content. The time when raids were released is still considered to be a height of the content drought. And raids being released then not only did not help the situation, but only made it worse.

[Digit.1823]

I think what most people debating for easy mode for raids are forgetting is developer intent.

 

Intent matters.

 

It was the intention of the developers to make raids the most challenging content found in the game. We can all agree that if you want to make content that carries the label "most challenging" it needs to meet a certain benchmark of difficulty. It cannot be "as easy" or "easier" then anything else found in the game otherwise it won't be the most challenging content. And yes that will obviously mean that at a certain level some players are going to be excluded. And that is fine.

 

It was the intention of the developers to also add exclusive rewards to raids, reason being of course is that with it being the most challenging content it deserved it's own set of unique rewards. A common theme among all games with diverse content, that the most challenging content gives the best (or unique) rewards. A logical thing. And that is fine.

 

We as players have already exceeded many intentions that the developers had when it came to raids. They intended it to be for highly organised groups using voice communication to get the job done. These days? Just join a pug group, no voice comms needed and just kill the bosses. If every member of the squad has an idea of what to do you can get the kill. And it's mostly mechanics based anyway, dps requirements are quite forgiving as we all know (or should know by now).

 

We as players have also exceeded expectations, as stated by the developers that raids are performing even better then what they at first calculated. Meaning that the decision behind implementing it was a very solid one. (Despite some nay-sayers rigorous attempts to state otherwise, but hey, making comments without data/proof is fun.)

 

I'd hate to be "that guy" but if you really want to know how accessible raids are just go look at Kitty's kill video's (You know that girl that speaks about herself in 3rd person). Although it's clear to anyone that knows how to raid that the squads she's in are painfully sub-optimal, they do get the kill.

 

They.

Get.

The.

Kill.

 

This, along with plenty of other video's showing off meta comps/people playing in all rares or greens, is enough proof that all you need is to understand about raids are the mechanics. DPS comes second. Sure enrage timers are there to provide a measure of ensuring you do more then just auto-attack to victory but the dps requirements are pretty darn low on most bosses.

 

Addendum: And because this means mechanics are literally the most important thing raids wise, this is why people are arguing that if you do implement an easy mode you need to leave the mechanics intact because reasons.

 

And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

 

And if you, after all that, still feel that you are doing something you dislike so much...well...maybe raids were _intended_ to be for other players then you. And that...is also fine.

[yann.1946]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

> > > > >

> > > > > GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

> > > >

> > > > It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

> > >

> > > True, which is why any cry for challenge, is really just a cry for exclusive special loot.

> > >

> > > I called that years ago when the whining for _challenge_ started, and I said then.. that doing this would end poorly for Anet. Given the post HoT numbers.. it did.

> >

> > Ignoring the two contentdroughts, the fact that HoT was made in less then a year. But sure raids where the problem.

>

> Oh.. the continent droughts that gave players the option.. _Raids_ or _Suck it_... Oh... that was a work of art, it was like watching a misericorde in action.

 

Yes that was horrible but you can't really blame raids for that. That was a symptom of bad planning. Although that's probably where the hate came from

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > Notice, that in the end there's no benefit for Anet from players becoming more skilled at a specific gamemode (or even from becoming more skilled in general). They benefit from players finding the game fun, and from them being loyal. None of it requires players to have a certain amount of skill (and, in fact, such a requirement can actually work _against_ the main goals).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That goes completely against peoples aim to improve at tasks and pleasure derived from that. I'm not sure I would agree to this at all.

> Oh, i'm not saying that anet should prevent people from improving. Or even that they should not give (slight) incentives for that. I'm saying that anet should stop assuming it should be a general goal.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Mastery and honing of skills is an essential part of enjoyment and human nature in almost every aspect of life be it work, hobbies, social life, leisure activities, sports, etc.

> That's actually completely untrue. People are completely capable of deriving enjoyment from things they are not interested in the slightest in improving in. Some people like to do sports, other prefer to _watch_ sports (without ever intending of doing said sports themselves).

> Mastery and honing of skills may lead to enjoyment, but not only enjoyment is possible without them, but in some cases said honing of skills can lead to _lessened_ enjoyment, if the skills honed weren't those you were interested in.

>

 

You are actually comparing something people passively watch to an online game they are actively playing?

 

I never said people can't enjoy something, I merely refuted your point that improvement was not part of a humans nature enjoyment, and that's not getting into the details of GW2 being a game you are involved in. Sure I can watch GW2 streams or youtube videos and enjoy them without getting better because I am consuming it passively. You'll have to do a lot better than that to make your point true. In most active activities people undertake for enjoyment, taking away some knowledge or skill is a very integral part to future enjoying said activity.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

>

> Or, subvert their expectations, and say "you can have raids if you like, but that by no means entitles you to exclusive access to any rewards. We *also* care about our *existing* players."

 

Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time. And "existing" players? What a joke. ANet as a studio has always cared more about the dedicated gamer than they have about the dilettante.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> You are actually comparing something people passively watch to an online game they are actively playing?

No, i merely gave a counterargument from the opposite end of the spectrum to you.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> I never said people can't enjoy something, I merely refuted your point that improvement was not part of a humans nature enjoyment

I never made that point. _You_ claimed that was an inherent part of enjoyment. Which is simply not true. It's not inherent, because enjoyment can easily exist without it.

 

> and that's not getting into the details of GW2 being a game you are involved in.

People can be involved in GW2, and they can derive enjoyment from ingame activities without feeling the need to improve their skills. Yes, for some people that would be a part of enjoyment they get, but not for all, and not in every situation.

 

> In most active activities people undertake for enjoyment, taking away some knowledge or skill is a very integral part to future enjoying said activity.

There's a difference between some knowledge/skill requirements, and a whole game activity being built around that concept. Not that there's any problem in some ingame activities being built around that. The problem lies when it's considered to be something inherently worthy of better rewards, while for Anet there's no real gain in that.

 

From Anet's point of view there should be no difference between players that enjoy themselves without feeling the need to constantly improve, and those that enjoy doing that. There should be no reason to reward one type of behaviour over another.

 

TL/DR; there's no real reason why skill improvement should be something that is specifically encouraged and rewarded in preference to other things that should matter to Anet more (like loyalty).

 

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time.

If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

 

You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time.

> If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

 

Nope, you don't get to separate those, it's a package deal.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

>

> You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

 

The general desire in the thread from easy mode advocates is that raids should have story so everyone can see it and that all items in the game should be available from a reward track style feature that fills up no matter what style of content you're playing so you can always just play your favorite content.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

> >

> > You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

>

> The general desire in the thread from easy mode advocates is that raids should have story so everyone can see it and that all items in the game should be available from a reward track style feature that fills up no matter what style of content you're playing so you can always just play your favorite content.

 

That's bad design actually. It encourages grind and it burns out players faster. GW2 takes the opposite approach - it encourages players to play different kinds of content using exclusive rewards. Open world, personal story, instanced content, pvp modes, they all have their own goodies which encourage you to try new stuff. It's by far the better way to structure your rewards.

[thrag.9740]

deleted - sorry can't read dates

[AriaFiresong.7023]

I'd like an easier mode just to let people experience the story. No, a gutted instance does not count unless ghostly imprints appear to reveal important dialogue/events regarding every single encounter. But they don't. You just see scenery that tells no story. Something definitely probably happened between mordremoth dying and a giant rock in a completely unrelated place exploding. It's been years and we still dunno what.