Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they didn't? > > Someone asked me this question years ago.When everyone was crying about wanting harder content, and they asked me what I would do if they put this kind of content in. > > My answer has not changed. If what I could play was fun and enjoyable to me, I'd play till I reached my skill cap, realize that is as far as I will get, and then like any reasonable person, I'd quit and look for another game to play. The point was these arguments go both ways equally. And as such do not really contribute to the discussion. Aside from that, I agree - if you don't enjoy something, you don't play it. Seems a no-brainer to me. > @"STIHL.2489" said: > As I said.. Raids will Kill this game. Here I disagree strongly. IMO, no MMO can survive without hardcore content. 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STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they didn't? > > > > Someone asked me this question years ago.When everyone was crying about wanting harder content, and they asked me what I would do if they put this kind of content in. > > > > My answer has not changed. If what I could play was fun and enjoyable to me, I'd play till I reached my skill cap, realize that is as far as I will get, and then like any reasonable person, I'd quit and look for another game to play. > > The point was these arguments go both ways equally. And as such do not really contribute to the discussion. Aside from that, I agree - if you don't enjoy something, you don't play it. Seems a no-brainer to me. You would think.. but yet.. players stayed around and cried and cried and cried they needed harder content as opposed to going and playing a game with harder content. The pitiful irony of that will never be lost on me. > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > As I said.. Raids will Kill this game. > > Here I disagree strongly. IMO, no MMO can survive without hardcore content. Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. The reality is, MMO are becoming more and more casual as time moves on.. From EQ to WoW, there was a massive step to embracing the casuals, and it's only gotten larger and larger.. hence the dwindling and very minority percent of MMO populations being _hardcore_, with bulk made up of casuals. In fact it is the MMO that try to cater to a hardcore crowed that are dying off, and the ones trying to build a more casual friendly experience that are growing. Hardcore players are a dying breed.. and sadly.. no one will miss them when they leave as they don't even bring that much to the table that is attractive, reality is they just overwhelm games with DPS Meters and other 3rd party software to help them Meta-Math the fun out of the game and build a toxic elitist Environments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. Many casuals have been here since launch and even beta, and unlike _hardcore_ players, casuals often do not game hop, they find a game they like, and play that loyally, often freely and happily investing money into their hobby. In fact, haven't you noticed a trend in most AAA and Mainstream MMO, that they just tack on PvP for their _hardcore_ players and call it done, and all their PvE content is casual focused, with crafting, gathering, world building, and their big bad monsters are often geared towards being social events as opposed to difficult or meta style fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. Actually they aren't. "Monthly active users" is probably the most important metric for a MMO. Note the use of the word "active". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. Well, there are a few here who have stated that they don’t play open world or use mounts and there is a huge cash flow generated from mount skins, even check out the financial report, the mount skins are very successful. If people are avoiding open world they are also avoiding money making items like gathering tools and so forth, which kinda makes me wonder how much income Raids bring to the table when comparing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > Well, there are a few here who have stated that they don’t play open world or use mounts and there is a huge cash flow generated from mount skins, even check out the financial report, the mount skins are very successful. If people are avoiding open world they are also avoiding money making items like gathering tools and so forth, which kinda makes me wonder how much income Raids bring to the table when comparing things. It's not direct. Raids keep players in the game. And players not in the game do not make in-game purchases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > > > Well, there are a few here who have stated that they don’t play open world or use mounts and there is a huge cash flow generated from mount skins, even check out the financial report, the mount skins are very successful. If people are avoiding open world they are also avoiding money making items like gathering tools and so forth, which kinda makes me wonder how much income Raids bring to the table when comparing things. > > It's not direct. Raids keep players in the game. And players not in the game do not make in-game purchases. Raids keep SOME players in the game. I noticed a new trend though of some players, raiders included, where a lot of people haven’t touched W5, some raiders haven’t touch raids since obtaining the armor. Not sure what is causing this trend, lack of interest? I’m still gonna say that Raids will stop at 8 wings and be like dungeon content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 Oh and congratulations everyone over 3k messages. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > > > > > Well, there are a few here who have stated that they don’t play open world or use mounts and there is a huge cash flow generated from mount skins, even check out the financial report, the mount skins are very successful. If people are avoiding open world they are also avoiding money making items like gathering tools and so forth, which kinda makes me wonder how much income Raids bring to the table when comparing things. > > > > It's not direct. Raids keep players in the game. And players not in the game do not make in-game purchases. > > Raids keep SOME players in the game. I noticed a new trend though of some players, raiders included, where a lot of people haven’t touched W5, some raiders haven’t touch raids since obtaining the armor. Not sure what is causing this trend, lack of interest? I’m still gonna say that Raids will stop at 8 wings and be like dungeon content. > Every piece of content that isn't completely dead keeps "some players" in the game. That's the point of offering diverse content. Some lose interest, that's normal. I see this in my guilds. But I also see players who have not raided before becoming active raiders. So it balances out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. That's one of the reasons why making the legendary armor (and a transforming skin) the main reward of raids (instead of going the old and tested way of just using unique skins thet weren't any different in quality than rewards from other content) was a mistake. They now need to think of comparable rewards for next raids. And they can't just keep inserting legendary quality rewards in raids without also doing them for other parts of pve - which is clearly something they don't have (or at least don't want to dedicate) manpower to do. And if they will try to add more and more legendary rewards to raids _without_ adding them to other parts of pve, then in future those threads about raids we have now will look tame and small in comparison. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Here I disagree strongly. IMO, no MMO can survive without hardcore content. Maybe for small, niche ones. The life (and death) of major MMOs however is strongly tied not to hardcore but to semi-casual players. No major MMO can survive only (or mostly) on hardcore players. There's simply not enough of them for the populations that are expected of the AAA titles nowadays. There's a reason why games started going more and more casual, and why what you consider "hardcore" nowadays would be nowhere close to that term in pre-WoW era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > No major MMO can survive only (or mostly) on hardcore players. And I never claimed otherwise. GW2 however offers lots and lots for the casual and semi-casual crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. Many casuals have been here since launch and even beta, and unlike _hardcore_ players, casuals often do not game hop, they find a game they like, and play that loyally, often freely and happily investing money into their hobby. > > In fact, haven't you noticed a trend in most AAA and Mainstream MMO, that they just tack on PvP for their _hardcore_ players and call it done, and all their PvE content is casual focused, with crafting, gathering, world building, and their big bad monsters are often geared towards being social events as opposed to difficult or meta style fights. A user that plays a lot of hours will probably be more loyal, and spend more. Do you know that monetizer player classification? Minnows, dolphins and whales. I don't think a lot of raiders are minnows. My guess is that the majority of us are dolphins, and some of us whales. Those two groups are typically a very complainer type of player -we complain about this, we complain about that. We want our game to be better and it's not easy to satisfy us. But when things are well done, we spend money. And if we complain it's because we care about the game. This game cannot survive with just minnows. Raiders spend a lot of time in the game, raiding, practicing, gearing their characters... they will buy all the expansions, because they need to be able to play the best specs. So much time invested means that they will not jump to another game easily. And shiny rewards like the Envoy help with that. Why would you change to a game where you don't have anything if, in GW2, you're a Voice in the Void player with all 3 sets of legendaries and a ton of other shiny things, if you have accomplished so much here? So, honestly, I don't think losing all raiders would be meaningless. It's not about "raiders are just a 10%" of the playerbase. It's about how much profit gives a raider to Anet compared to a casual OW player. Maybe we're just a 10%, yeah, but maybe a raider spends much more than one of those players from the 90%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > > > Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. > > Actually they aren't. "Monthly active users" is probably the most important metric for a MMO. Note the use of the word "active". _Active_ often means "Logged in this month". not spent 100 h ours this week grinding gold into gems so they would not need to spend a cent of real money to get store only items. Most casuals are active players until they start to look for other games, and it's been proven that casuals have lower turnover and a slower burn out rate then hardcore players. Which for a company hoping to make any long term profit, those are the people they want to keep around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > > > Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. Many casuals have been here since launch and even beta, and unlike _hardcore_ players, casuals often do not game hop, they find a game they like, and play that loyally, often freely and happily investing money into their hobby. > > > > In fact, haven't you noticed a trend in most AAA and Mainstream MMO, that they just tack on PvP for their _hardcore_ players and call it done, and all their PvE content is casual focused, with crafting, gathering, world building, and their big bad monsters are often geared towards being social events as opposed to difficult or meta style fights. > > A user that plays a lot of hours will probably be more loyal, and spend more. This has been proven false, as often those who invest more hours have more in game currency to get away with not spending money. Also, if they have a lot of hours to burn into a game they tend to not have gainful employment and this lack disposable income. > Do you know that monetizer player classification? Minnows, dolphins and whales. I don't think a lot of raiders are minnows. My guess is that the majority of us are dolphins, and some of us whales. Those two groups are typically a very complainer type of player -we complain about this, we complain about that. We want our game to be better and it's not easy to satisfy us. But when things are well done, we spend money. And if we complain it's because we care about the game. There is zero truth this as well, and given Anets tanked earning following HoT.. there is a lot of evidence to say this is the opposite of what is in fact true. > This game cannot survive with just minnows. Raiders spend a lot of time in the game, raiding, practicing, gearing their characters... they will buy all the expansions, because they need to be able to play the best specs. So much time invested means that they will not jump to another game easily. And shiny rewards like the Envoy help with that. Why would you change to a game where you don't have anything if, in GW2, you're a Voice in the Void player with all 3 sets of legendaries and a ton of other shiny things, if you have accomplished so much here? > > So, honestly, I don't think losing all raiders would be meaningless. It's not about "raiders are just a 10%" of the playerbase. It's about how much profit gives a raider to Anet compared to a casual OW player. Maybe we're just a 10%, yeah, but maybe a raider spends much more than one of those players from the 90%. All of this is a fallacy that has in fact been proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > > > > > Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. Many casuals have been here since launch and even beta, and unlike _hardcore_ players, casuals often do not game hop, they find a game they like, and play that loyally, often freely and happily investing money into their hobby. > > > > > > In fact, haven't you noticed a trend in most AAA and Mainstream MMO, that they just tack on PvP for their _hardcore_ players and call it done, and all their PvE content is casual focused, with crafting, gathering, world building, and their big bad monsters are often geared towards being social events as opposed to difficult or meta style fights. > > > > A user that plays a lot of hours will probably be more loyal, and spend more. > > This has been proven false, as often those who invest more hours have more in game currency to get away with not spending money. Also, if they have a lot of hours to burn into a game they tend to not have gainful employment and this lack disposable income. > > > Do you know that monetizer player classification? Minnows, dolphins and whales. I don't think a lot of raiders are minnows. My guess is that the majority of us are dolphins, and some of us whales. Those two groups are typically a very complainer type of player -we complain about this, we complain about that. We want our game to be better and it's not easy to satisfy us. But when things are well done, we spend money. And if we complain it's because we care about the game. > > There is zero truth this as well, and given Anets tanked earning following HoT.. there is a lot of evidence to say this is the opposite of what is in fact true. > > > This game cannot survive with just minnows. Raiders spend a lot of time in the game, raiding, practicing, gearing their characters... they will buy all the expansions, because they need to be able to play the best specs. So much time invested means that they will not jump to another game easily. And shiny rewards like the Envoy help with that. Why would you change to a game where you don't have anything if, in GW2, you're a Voice in the Void player with all 3 sets of legendaries and a ton of other shiny things, if you have accomplished so much here? > > > > So, honestly, I don't think losing all raiders would be meaningless. It's not about "raiders are just a 10%" of the playerbase. It's about how much profit gives a raider to Anet compared to a casual OW player. Maybe we're just a 10%, yeah, but maybe a raider spends much more than one of those players from the 90%. > > All of this is a fallacy that has in fact been proven wrong. Where? When? By who? Do you even know what a fallacy is, or you just didn't understand my post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > > > > > > > > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. > > > > > > > > Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. Many casuals have been here since launch and even beta, and unlike _hardcore_ players, casuals often do not game hop, they find a game they like, and play that loyally, often freely and happily investing money into their hobby. > > > > > > > > In fact, haven't you noticed a trend in most AAA and Mainstream MMO, that they just tack on PvP for their _hardcore_ players and call it done, and all their PvE content is casual focused, with crafting, gathering, world building, and their big bad monsters are often geared towards being social events as opposed to difficult or meta style fights. > > > > > > A user that plays a lot of hours will probably be more loyal, and spend more. > > > > This has been proven false, as often those who invest more hours have more in game currency to get away with not spending money. Also, if they have a lot of hours to burn into a game they tend to not have gainful employment and this lack disposable income. > > > > > Do you know that monetizer player classification? Minnows, dolphins and whales. I don't think a lot of raiders are minnows. My guess is that the majority of us are dolphins, and some of us whales. Those two groups are typically a very complainer type of player -we complain about this, we complain about that. We want our game to be better and it's not easy to satisfy us. But when things are well done, we spend money. And if we complain it's because we care about the game. > > > > There is zero truth this as well, and given Anets tanked earning following HoT.. there is a lot of evidence to say this is the opposite of what is in fact true. > > > > > This game cannot survive with just minnows. Raiders spend a lot of time in the game, raiding, practicing, gearing their characters... they will buy all the expansions, because they need to be able to play the best specs. So much time invested means that they will not jump to another game easily. And shiny rewards like the Envoy help with that. Why would you change to a game where you don't have anything if, in GW2, you're a Voice in the Void player with all 3 sets of legendaries and a ton of other shiny things, if you have accomplished so much here? > > > > > > So, honestly, I don't think losing all raiders would be meaningless. It's not about "raiders are just a 10%" of the playerbase. It's about how much profit gives a raider to Anet compared to a casual OW player. Maybe we're just a 10%, yeah, but maybe a raider spends much more than one of those players from the 90%. > > > > All of this is a fallacy that has in fact been proven wrong. > > Where? When? By who? Do you even know what a fallacy is, or you just didn't understand my post? Back in the early 2008 - 2012, with the rise of F2P MMO's this was researched and looked into, several multi-year studies can be purchased if you want to look into it, by data collection agencies.. because.. money trends tends to bring them out. Everything you said, does not align to the data that at least two of these companies collected, as such, what you have spewed is nothing more then some urban legend or a myth if you will, I would wager parroted by the people that hope there is some truth to it, but all the data we have on the subject says there is no _factual_ truth to it. Reality is a harsh pill to swallow when it disagrees with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 I mean we are already seeing some divides now with wing 5 and wing 6 will make it more apparent. Another issue is how long these raids take to come out, which is probably one of culprits why people aren’t playing them. By these timings, Wing 8 will be out after the next expansion and who knows what the game will be looking like then. There is also that people did their original clear of wing 5 and hit their ring achievement. They have their ring achievement, they have their Legendary Armor, there really isn’t any real reason to run the raid unless you just really enjoy raids. Wing 6 will probably be tied to a collection to get the gift that requires the gift of Coalescence. Wing 7 and Wing 8, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. You understand the logic of that decision though right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrs.4831 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Not true. The reasons that people dislike raiding in its current state have nothing to do with easy mode, because easy mode eliminates them. It's like asking someone > A:"Do you like ghost pepper buffalo wings?" > B:"No, they are way too spicy." > A:"So you can't possibly like mild buffalo wings either." > B:". . .That's not how any of this works." But you can try the mild buffalo wings and you can see if you actually like them instead of just looking at them and thinking that you'd like them. Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Not true. The reasons that people dislike raiding in its current state have nothing to do with easy mode, because easy mode eliminates them. It's like asking someone > > A:"Do you like ghost pepper buffalo wings?" > > B:"No, they are way too spicy." > > A:"So you can't possibly like mild buffalo wings either." > > B:". . .That's not how any of this works." > > But you can try the mild buffalo wings and you can see if you actually like them instead of just looking at them and thinking that you'd like them. > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. Perhaps why there should be an open world variance of armor and should of been from the start. Options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. > > You understand the logic of that decision though right? That like a lot of people my instinct is the path of least resistance even if logically i know harder difficulty and the threat of failure often means better more interesting and memorable content long term. That having the option to give yourself a worse experience shouldn't be a thing. I also understand that it is far healthier in an MMORPG long term for there to be things you want but don't have yet and it is more enjoyable long term than to have seen and done everything already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrs.4831 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Perhaps why there should be an open world variance of armor and should of been from the start. Options. Nothing to do with the merits of adding an easy mode to raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. Let me see if I have this right, because you can't bring yourself to do hard mode, you feel that an Easy Mode should not exist. That has got to be.. the worst rational I have ever read on this topic.. and it's not even the first time I have read it, but the rational still remains the worst I have heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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