Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> From what he's said over the past few pages, I gather that he got burned in wow raiding and came to gw2 to get away from it, and now feels betrayed over the fact that anet introduced raids, and wants them gone asap.

A lot of gw2 players were like that. When it launched, it was a heaven for refugees from previous MMOs (mainly WoW), that hoped they have finally found a game that would let them escape from the whole raid-induced mentality that their previous games had (but GW2 didn't). Cue Anet introducing raids here.

 

 

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually *did* run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

> > > > >

> > > > > The difference being: the game was under development back then.

> > > >

> > > > But this is an MMO. It is *always* under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!"

> > > >

> > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

> > > >

> > > > And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

> > >

> > > Everyone has stuff in the game they either want, but don't feel like doing the work required and choose not to get it and focus elsewhere, or grit their teeth and worked through it. It's not just nonraider and legendary armor in that situation.

> >

> > Sure.

> >

> > But is that a *good* thing?

> >

> > Does anyone *benefit* by having things that they want, but that the method of acquiring it would not make them happy? This is a game, if you aren't having fun them something has gone dreadfully wrong. There is no virtue in people "doing what they need to do, even if they don't enjoy it," because the only thing anyone *needs* to do is enjoy themselves. If players are presented with *only* the options "do a thing that you don't enjoy" *or* "never get that thing you wanted," then that's a choice without any good options. Nobody benefits from that choice.

> >

> > I am opposed to *any* situation where that option is forced. I believe that if any player enjoys *most* of how the game works, then *all* aspects of the game should be available in a form that they would enjoy. The only people who shouldn't be able to find a path to their goals that suits their playstyle would be players who don't enjoy the game at all, in which case, why would they even be here?

>

> I think at this point part of the reason why I oppose you, a significant part actually, is due to how incredibly aggravating your arguments are and seeing you unsatisfied and not obtaining envoy armor is satisfying to me. I think a significant portion of the people in this thread probably share my sentiment.

 

so.. let me see if I have this right.. your motives are driven by pure spite?

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said

> > But we aren't talking about a tournament. There *is* no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is **no reason** why they should have **exclusive** access to **anything**.

>

> Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

 

I think this is really where the main problem is, that people who do raids feel they are better then those that don't. And that is a large part of the problem here, it is this mindset that has caused the most elitism and toxicity in both the game itself and this discussion.

 

If a raider stepped down off their high horse and realize that it takes just as much skill to do a Jump Puzzle like Winters Day, as it does to memorize the Boss Rotations of a Raid, we could have a better game, and a better discussion. It would also wake up some people that they don't deserve anything simply for playing content they asked for.

 

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > From what he's said over the past few pages, I gather that he got burned in wow raiding and came to gw2 to get away from it, and now feels betrayed over the fact that anet introduced raids, and wants them gone asap.

> A lot of gw2 players were like that. When it launched, it was a heaven for refugees from previous MMOs (mainly WoW), that hoped they have finally found a game that would let them escape from the whole raid-induced mentality that their previous games had (but GW2 didn't). Cue Anet introducing raids here.

>

 

This makes no sense at all since you are not forced to play raids in GW2. There's no story progression involved and you won't be stopped or excluded from important content. You can leave raids aside and still have the best gear with ascended stuff.

I'm sorry but it sounds more like a cheap excuse and a lot of bitterness that there is harder content not available for the average Joe. Additionally we know that GW2 raids aren't that hard to master. Various streamers on twitch with a lot of LIs shining with terrible gameplay prove us the opposite every day. Only if players are very limited in terms of skill or completely abhor a little bit harder instanced group content raids are seen as a burden or some kind of evil.

In no way a "raid refugee" won't find his place in GW2. If someone can't be satisified with GW2 due to the existance of raids it's just jealousy or maybe some severe mental issue.

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> >I prefer SPvP to collections and world completion. But tying the Funerary Armor to those specific POF collections and the Funerary Weapons to legendary bounties ensured that I actually spent time doing that content. As a result, getting the funerary stuff for my guardian made me appreciate the zones and the work that went into the bounty system and it made me appreciate the items themselves more. And it got me leading a bunch of legendary bounty trains helping people do the bosses as well. All the funerary stuff has a lot more meaning to me now because getting it required specific things from me than the Bounty Hunter and Warbeast armor sets, which I just passively unlocked all of while I played SPvP.

>

> But that's a content you came to enjoy. Was there never content in the game that you *never* enjoyed? Like I said, I agree with the idea that content can *draw* you to an area, there can be portions that require you to spend a *little* time doing a specific thing, and if you really enjoy it, then great, you can keep doing it. If you really don't enjoy it though, especially if the goal takes months to earn, then they should let you do something else instead.

 

I actually dislike Bounties trains and what they stand for. I've never cared for particularly zerg orientated content especially when no matter how many people die there's zero chance for failure. I thought it was a stroke of genius for Heart of Thorns meta events to focus on dividing maps into smaller groups by necessity that make it feel more impactful. I'm glad I saw a bunch of them and spent time with them and hanging out in the desert is generally pleasant, but that's the sort of thing I would never do without the incentive. And the Funerary Weapons Collection is a lot of legendary bounties.

 

>

> > I probably would have had more fun waiting every week for Priory Explorer Elise and being excited about what recipe she's offering next and wondering when and where's she's going to be found. It diversifies player experience. It gives items tangible meaning and makes them cool. And by making people do a variety of things aside from their number 1 favorite thing it prevents burn out.

>

> But none of what you describe could be compared at all to raiding. You describe minor inconveniences and half-week grinds, when what we're talking about is a multi-month grind of very complex and deliberately annoying content. Apples and oranges.

 

No. It's apples to bigger apples.

>

> >Plus a lot of times players will avoid things they're unfamiliar with. It took me over a year after release to ever set for in PvP or WvW.

>

> But again, that can be accomplished with a short term goal, it doesn't require a long term one.

>

> >Think about how many WvWers got into WvW because if you wanted to craft a legendary weapon you had to go into WvW.

>

> Why is it good for the game for WvW to be a thing, in the abstract? If people don't want to do it, why should they have to? Is it worth spending developer resources on the mode if people only do it because the developers bribe them into it? Wouldn't it just be better if players *didn't* play that mode, and instead those resources were spent on the content they actually *wanted* to play?

Except a lot of people DO like WvW and do get into it because of the Gift of Battle. And the Gift of Battle is a great way to get them into it.

 

GW2 doesn't need WvW. But if a lot of people like WvW I don't see any harm in giving incentives to people who haven't tried it yet to do so. Like if WvW was literally nothing but a handful of people only working on the Gift of Battle and then never ever entering WvW again I'd agree.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> I think this is really where the main problem is, that people who do raids feel they are better then those that don't. And that is a large part of the problem here, it is this mindset that has caused the most elitism and toxicity in both the game itself and this discussion.

>

> If a raider stepped down off their high horse and realize that it takes just as much skill to do a Jump Puzzle like Winters Day, as it does to memorize the Boss Rotations of a Raid, we could have a better game, and a better discussion. It would also wake up some people that they don't deserve anything simply for playing content they asked for.

 

Wow, I think it's highly debatable that the Winters Day JP takes as much skill as to kill a raid boss. I've done everything in PvE and JPs are by far easier to learn than raid bosses.

Also a lot of debaters here aren't average raiders that just learned some rotations of their classes and the boss mechanics by heart. They know their main classes well and can tell you more about traits, specs and skills + synergies than 99% of the whole PvE player base. Additionally most of them are longtime veterans, already active during dungeon peak times in the past. In my opinion and that is far from toxicity those players deserve to have an appropriate reward that others do not. It's just a matter of sportive fairness.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > From what he's said over the past few pages, I gather that he got burned in wow raiding and came to gw2 to get away from it, and now feels betrayed over the fact that anet introduced raids, and wants them gone asap.

> A lot of gw2 players were like that. When it launched, it was a heaven for refugees from previous MMOs (mainly WoW), that hoped they have finally found a game that would let them escape from the whole raid-induced mentality that their previous games had (but GW2 didn't). Cue Anet introducing raids here.

>

>

>

>

 

We've been over this so many times. Arenanet adapted their game in many ways over the years including but are not limited to:

 

- back to more traditional lines of heal,tank and damage trinity

- away from temporary living world updates to permanent expanions

- a mastery system which forces/allows beyond level 80 leveling

- a ton of more endgame content due to fast player boredom initially

- ascended gear beyond exotic gear

 

and as a result of all this change the game is in a great spot at the moment. Needles to say GW2 is probably among the top 3 MMOs available to the western market. Plus the game did not go belly up like so many other MMOs over the last few years which are in mostly maintenance mode at the moment.

 

I very much doubt this would be the case if those changes had not occurred but that's a "what if" scenario.

 

It is disingenuous though to blame raids and changes one dislikes while not giving credit to the bigger picture. I for one am quite happy with the approach Arenanet has been having to developing the game even if I don't enjoy all aspects of it (or play all equally) and am sure they have a ton of metrics which allow them to improve on their approach if need be. Same goes for fractals and the outrage over new "to difficult fractals". Obviously the developer is happy with their player data compared to expectations, otherwise they would have adapted. Same goes for raids.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

Has anybody besides me noticed that this thread was supposed to be about the pro's and con's of different raid difficulties and whether easy mode would draw more players or a hard mode may keep existing bored raiders.

Very few have asked for the same loot as normal for an easy, but it's been spun into the argument somehow. Actually a few had suggested a simple training mode without loot, so they could learn mechanics.

But now we seem to be all about "you shouldn't get it easier than I did" and "you have no right to exclusionism"

So, in short we're stuck envoy armor. And the same posters over and over.

Anet evidently weighed in with, basically, "it's not worth our time" and leads me to beleive that this mode may be forced into obscurity, which will probably move envoy access as well. Then the arguments will stop.

It's disappointing because i recently learned a few raids and cleared a few. Have several to go but, quite frankly I hate watching vids and reading about a game and it's mechanics when I'd rather spend MY relaxation time doing what i want, playing it. I really enjoyed them once i got the mechanics down, but even now the time/reward for an average group is bullshit. So, I hate to see it die since i could really get into it, but if the current way to learn stays, kitten it delete that chit

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > I think this is really where the main problem is, that people who do raids feel they are better then those that don't. And that is a large part of the problem here, it is this mindset that has caused the most elitism and toxicity in both the game itself and this discussion.

> >

> > If a raider stepped down off their high horse and realize that it takes just as much skill to do a Jump Puzzle like Winters Day, as it does to memorize the Boss Rotations of a Raid, we could have a better game, and a better discussion. It would also wake up some people that they don't deserve anything simply for playing content they asked for.

>

> Wow, I think it's highly debatable that the Winters Day JP takes as much skill as to kill a raid boss. I've done everything in PvE and JPs are by far easier to learn than raid bosses.

 

Not at all.

 

While both are PvE and thus Scripted Encounters, so their challenge only persists till the mechanic is figured out then it is just a matter of reproduction and repetition.

 

I have found Jump Puzzles, especially the Winters Day, to be far harder then any instance dungeon content I have done, as far as the content itself goes. Given I can't min-max my build to lessen it's difficulty, nor can I buy a completion, or even have anyone carry me though it, it is game purely of my skill as a player and my ability to learn and master the content.

 

Unlike Raids, which optimal meta build makes them far easier, not to mention players can buy completions which are condoned by Anet.

 

The only difficult part of Raids is dealing with 9 other people who may turn into complete jerks if I make a mistake, so learning them is more an issues of social aggravation then any challenge the content itself provides.

 

> Also a lot of debaters here aren't average raiders that just learned some rotations of their classes and the boss mechanics by heart. They know their main classes well and can tell you more about traits, specs and skills + synergies than 99% of the whole PvE player base. Additionally most of them are longtime veterans, already active during dungeon peak times in the past. In my opinion and that is far from toxicity those players deserve to have an appropriate reward that others do not. It's just a matter of sportive fairness.

 

No, They get their Loyalty Reward for time invested into the game, right alongside everyone else, they are not nor should they ever be entitled to more then that.

 

The fact they _think_ they deserve more.. is _exactly_ what makes them toxic.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > I think this is really where the main problem is, that people who do raids feel they are better then those that don't. And that is a large part of the problem here, it is this mindset that has caused the most elitism and toxicity in both the game itself and this discussion.

> > >

> > > If a raider stepped down off their high horse and realize that it takes just as much skill to do a Jump Puzzle like Winters Day, as it does to memorize the Boss Rotations of a Raid, we could have a better game, and a better discussion. It would also wake up some people that they don't deserve anything simply for playing content they asked for.

> >

> > Wow, I think it's highly debatable that the Winters Day JP takes as much skill as to kill a raid boss. I've done everything in PvE and JPs are by far easier to learn than raid bosses.

>

> Not at all.

>

> While both are PvE and thus Scripted Encounters, so their challenge only persists till the mechanic is figured out then it is just a matter of reproduction and repetition.

 

You keep claiming this, and you keep being wrong about it. For solo content you would have a point. For content balanced to be played by 5 or 10 players, no. It has *exactly* the same challenge factor coming from the human involvement as the PvP modes have, only in a different way. In JPs it's all up to you, you can't get wiped because someone else made a crucial mistake.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

>

> Not at all.

>

> While both are PvE and thus Scripted Encounters, so their challenge only persists till the mechanic is figured out then it is just a matter of reproduction and repetition.

>

> I have found Jump Puzzles, especially the Winters Day, to be far harder then any instance dungeon content I have done, as far as the content itself goes. Given I can't min-max my build to lessen it's difficulty, nor can I buy a completion, or even have anyone carry me though it, it is game purely of my skill as a player and my ability to learn and master the content.

>

> Unlike Raids, which optimal meta build makes them far easier, not to mention players can buy completions which are condoned by Anet.

>

> The only difficult part of Raids is dealing with 9 other people who may turn into complete jerks if I make a mistake, so learning them is more an issues of social aggravation then any challenge the content itself provides.

>

 

I think the longest I have ever needed to complete a jumping puzzle was the original very first clock tower with aproximately 45 minutes until first completion of chain tries (and waiting for the runs to reset). So probably a total of 20-25 tries.

 

I average 15 Wintersday Jumping puzzle runs per hour with my personal best of 18 running the hard (very left) track.

 

Difficulty is subjective but if we are to take time invested until mastery as a metric, you are far off. Or just really bad at jumping puzzles.

 

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Also a lot of debaters here aren't average raiders that just learned some rotations of their classes and the boss mechanics by heart. They know their main classes well and can tell you more about traits, specs and skills + synergies than 99% of the whole PvE player base. Additionally most of them are longtime veterans, already active during dungeon peak times in the past. In my opinion and that is far from toxicity those players deserve to have an appropriate reward that others do not. It's just a matter of sportive fairness.

>

> No, They get their Loyalty Reward for time invested into the game, right alongside everyone else, they are not nor should they ever be entitled to more then that.

>

> The fact they _think_ they deserve more.. is _exactly_ what makes them toxic.

 

The only person toxic here seems you with this vast amount of assumptions. I could assume the same about you or other people disagreeing with my opinion but that doesn't further nor benefit this discussion.

 

Here is where this situation is effectively at:

**In order to force or motivate a change the benefits need to outweigh enough for such a course of action to make sense. At best what this thread has shown is that a couple of forum warriors with to much time on their hands from both sides of the debate are arguing in circles. That does not constitute a valid amount of possible positive change.**

 

Your only disadvantage is that you are not on the side of people who are content with the current situation.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > I think this is really where the main problem is, that people who do raids feel they are better then those that don't. And that is a large part of the problem here, it is this mindset that has caused the most elitism and toxicity in both the game itself and this discussion.

> > > >

> > > > If a raider stepped down off their high horse and realize that it takes just as much skill to do a Jump Puzzle like Winters Day, as it does to memorize the Boss Rotations of a Raid, we could have a better game, and a better discussion. It would also wake up some people that they don't deserve anything simply for playing content they asked for.

> > >

> > > Wow, I think it's highly debatable that the Winters Day JP takes as much skill as to kill a raid boss. I've done everything in PvE and JPs are by far easier to learn than raid bosses.

> >

> > Not at all.

> >

> > While both are PvE and thus Scripted Encounters, so their challenge only persists till the mechanic is figured out then it is just a matter of reproduction and repetition.

>

> You keep claiming this, and you keep being wrong about it. For solo content you would have a point. For content balanced to be played by 5 or 10 players, no. It has *exactly* the same challenge factor coming from the human involvement as the PvP modes have, only in a different way. In JPs it's all up to you, you can't get wiped because someone else made a crucial mistake.

 

Not at all. Unlike PvP, the Mobs in PvE will behave the same way, and the events will unfold in the same order, as such, If the members of the group know the mechanic as well as someone would need to know a Solo Dungeon, there will be very little variance between seasons completions, hence speed runs, and all that. 5 - 10 person dungeons, once the group knows the mechanics will be able to repeat and reproduce the result ad nauseam, in reasonably the same time frame each time, doing the same rotations and actions taken each run, again, no different then someone doing a Solo Dungeon or a Jump Puzzle.

 

Sure mistakes happen due to human element, but that happens in JP's as well, as the player makes a mistake, but unlike a Dungeon where perhaps that mistake can be accounted for by other players, in a JP, or Solo Dungeon, it means a re-start. The only similarities between group dungeons and pvp is the trash talk and the toxic elitist attitude some of them have when anyone makes a mistake, or in some cases, when they make a mistake. Hardly the attributes that one should be proud of.

 

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> so.. let me see if I have this right.. your motives are driven by pure spite?

 

At this point, it is partially out of spite. Hard to say exactly how much, wouldn't say over 50% though.

 

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> I think this is really where the main problem is, that people who do raids feel they are better then those that don't.

 

I have no idea how you interpreted my "you're exaggerating" message as "raiders are better than non-raiders".

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> >

> > Not at all.

> >

> > While both are PvE and thus Scripted Encounters, so their challenge only persists till the mechanic is figured out then it is just a matter of reproduction and repetition.

> >

> > I have found Jump Puzzles, especially the Winters Day, to be far harder then any instance dungeon content I have done, as far as the content itself goes. Given I can't min-max my build to lessen it's difficulty, nor can I buy a completion, or even have anyone carry me though it, it is game purely of my skill as a player and my ability to learn and master the content.

> >

> > Unlike Raids, which optimal meta build makes them far easier, not to mention players can buy completions which are condoned by Anet.

> >

> > The only difficult part of Raids is dealing with 9 other people who may turn into complete jerks if I make a mistake, so learning them is more an issues of social aggravation then any challenge the content itself provides.

> >

>

> I think the longest I have ever needed to complete a jumping puzzle was the original very first clock tower with aproximately 45 minutes until first completion of chain tries (and waiting for the runs to reset). So probably a total of 20-25 tries.

>

 

Then you are a better player then me, as it took me over a week, playing for 2 hours day, to finally beat the Mad King, which I am sure that I put in more effort to learn and beat that JP then any here took to learn and beat Vale Guardian.

 

What will kill Anet is that they have chosen to reward you more for the same effort.

 

My time is not worth less then yours, simply because you have better twitch control, and if Anet is going to treat it as such.. that will kill them.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > The fact they _think_ they deserve more.. is _exactly_ what makes them toxic.

>

> The only person toxic here seems you with this vast amount of assumptions. I could assume the same about you or other people disagreeing with my opinion but that doesn't further nor benefit this discussion.

>

 

I am sure you could call me toxic, you would not be the first and I am sure you won't be the last.. as no doubt to some I must me a horrible person to want a game that feels open and accessible to the vast majority of it's players.

 

But in the end Anet has said they won't change anything.. so I guess what really makes me toxic is that I am continuing to argue in spite of knowing that.

 

My greatest disadvantage is that I suppose I foolishly cling to the hope Anet will wake up and realize what a mistake this is.. or.. maybe I'm just toxic and like to bicker on forums... assume what you will.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Then you are a better player then me, as it took me over a week, playing for 2 hours day, to finally beat the Mad King, which I am sure that I put in more effort to learn and beat that JP then any here took to learn and beat Vale Guardian.

 

That's why we need different content in PvE and especially harder things because some of us are **better** at this game than others. This statement is far from being toxic as it is the same about me saying that I'm an awful tennis player compared to millions of players in the world.

 

> What will kill Anet is that they have chosen to reward you more for the same effort.

 

Latest revenues tell a different story. NCSoft is happy about the moneyz. I think you are way to pessimistic and actually not really in a good mood. Maybe you need a break from the game or change something in your life.

 

> My time is not worth less then yours, simply because you have better twitch control, and if Anet is going to treat it as such.. that will kill them.

 

I strongly doubt that.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> Very few have asked for the same loot as normal for an easy, but it's been spun into the argument somehow.

 

I don't know why you find it odd, but the rewards ARE the largest topic of discussion in this thread and every other one on this subject. Very few ask about it, but they keep asking about it for pages and pages. I think already on the first few pages there was an understanding by many about giving different rewards on different tiers of play. But of course it wasn't enough.

 

Now on to your own suggestion, I'm a bit confused but how exactly is having a training mode for Raids going to help you find a team for the normal ones?

For example, running lower Tier Fractals won't open up higher tiers for any player. Or running T4 Fractals won't allow you to be accepted into teams going for the CMs.

Is this training mode going to give you LI and KP so you can enter the normal tier Raids? If that's the case then I expect a massive swift in how pugs work and an insane increase in LI requirements if that ever happens.

[Cyninja.2954]

Here is what I hope:

 

I hope that Arenanet have enough experience, metrics and innovation to keep the game interesting and in good health for multiple years to come. God knows many other developers suck at this part (looking at you Bliz...I mean Activision). If this results in game modes I enjoy to get removed, revamped, amended or in other ways edited I hope I'll have enough fun with the game to stay and/or enjoy the future game. As long as it keeps the game healthy and fun, that's okay by me. If that means easy raids, no raids, harder raids or what ever, I will adapt or leave simple as that. Maybe have a little faith in the developers that their approach is for the good of the game and overall player base, even if you disagree.

 

It's funny how bleak some people perceive GW2 currently when honestly almost everything Arenanet has been doing since HoT (and them learning from their first expansion) has been pretty much amazing. To forgotten are the times of a year long Silverwastes with no endgame, of regular topics of gloom and doom on the forums predicting Guild Wars 2 end just around the next corner. Yet here we are arguably one of the best MMOs available and growing (unlike most others) with people anxious to hear about if the next expansion is an underwater one.

 

If people want to have drama or actually go play a fail MMO: Blade and Soul, BDO, Bless and a multitude more are out there waiting for more players.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > I think this is really where the main problem is, that people who do raids feel they are better then those that don't. And that is a large part of the problem here, it is this mindset that has caused the most elitism and toxicity in both the game itself and this discussion.

> > > > >

> > > > > If a raider stepped down off their high horse and realize that it takes just as much skill to do a Jump Puzzle like Winters Day, as it does to memorize the Boss Rotations of a Raid, we could have a better game, and a better discussion. It would also wake up some people that they don't deserve anything simply for playing content they asked for.

> > > >

> > > > Wow, I think it's highly debatable that the Winters Day JP takes as much skill as to kill a raid boss. I've done everything in PvE and JPs are by far easier to learn than raid bosses.

> > >

> > > Not at all.

> > >

> > > While both are PvE and thus Scripted Encounters, so their challenge only persists till the mechanic is figured out then it is just a matter of reproduction and repetition.

> >

> > You keep claiming this, and you keep being wrong about it. For solo content you would have a point. For content balanced to be played by 5 or 10 players, no. It has *exactly* the same challenge factor coming from the human involvement as the PvP modes have, only in a different way. In JPs it's all up to you, you can't get wiped because someone else made a crucial mistake.

>

> Not at all. Unlike PvP, the Mobs in PvE will behave the same way, and the events will unfold in the same order, as such, If the members of the group know the mechanic as well as someone would need to know a Solo Dungeon, there will be very little variance between seasons completions, hence speed runs, and all that. 5 - 10 person dungeons, once the group knows the mechanics will be able to repeat and reproduce the result ad nauseam, in reasonably the same time frame each time, doing the same rotations and actions taken each run, again, no different then someone doing a Solo Dungeon or a Jump Puzzle.

 

First off, no, the events do not have to unfold in the same order. Encounters often include random factor which makes them less predictable, like the bomb phase on KC.

Second, even if the events follow the same script, *human players do not*. Again, you're looking at an edge case - the uber-hardcore statics. Yeah, they have everything perfected, they barely ever make mistakes (except Snow Crows lost against MnF because of their own mistakes, but hey). And they're also a handful of players. For the **vast** majority of raiders, this is never the case. Neither their groups are *that* static, nor they have achieved a level of perfection that's remotely close to what you describe. So for the **vast** majority of raiders, clearing a raid will always be fundamentally harder than doing solo content.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Then you are a better player then me, as it took me over a week, playing for 2 hours day, to finally beat the Mad King, which I am sure that I put in more effort to learn and beat that JP then any here took to learn and beat Vale Guardian.

>

> That's why we need different content in PvE and especially harder things because some of us are **better** at this game than others. This statement is far from being toxic as it is the same about me saying that I'm an awful tennis player compared to millions of players in the world.

 

I am fine with you getting your content.. what I am not fine with it locking legendary armor behind it.

 

> Latest revenues tell a different story. NCSoft is happy about the moneyz. I think you are way to pessimistic and actually not really in a good mood. Maybe you need a break from the game or change something in your life.

>

 

I already have a game I plan to move on to picked out, it's still in Beta, so, I have time till it goes live. But, I have already ceased any long term goals in GW2, still looking the best way to liquidate my stuff, as I hope to give my guild a substantial parting gift, but, as of right now, I am just screwing around in HoT, maybe even finally get my scrapper hammer before I go.. I might not.. no worries either way for me at this point. As you said.. maybe I should go.. and you're right.. anyone not happy should move on. Too bad so many stayed around and cried about needing challenge as opposed to following that advice.

 

But as I see it, if Raids were the only thing keeping you here, then you didn't really enjoy the other parts of the game, whereas I loved the whole other parts of the game, and they opted to lock the long term goals behind content that was above my skill level.

 

It was their choice on who to placate. Do I think it will end poorly for them, yes I do, but hey.. WoW made some blunders as well, no surprise that GW2 will too, But.. I am sure the loss of little ol me.. won't affect them none.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Here is what I hope:

>

> I hope that Arenanet have enough experience, metrics and innovation to keep the game interesting and in good health for multiple years to come. God knows many other developers suck at this part (looking at you Bliz...I mean Activision). If this results in game modes I enjoy to get removed, revamped, amended or in other ways edited I hope I'll have enough fun with the game to stay and/or enjoy the future game. As long as it keeps the game healthy and fun, that's okay by me. If that means easy raids, no raids, harder raids or what ever, I will adapt or leave simple as that. Maybe have a little faith in the developers that their approach is for the good of the game and overall player base, even if you disagree.

>

> It's funny how bleak some people perceive GW2 currently when honestly almost everything Arenanet has been doing since HoT (and them learning from their first expansion) has been pretty much amazing. To forgotten are the times of a year long Silverwastes with no endgame, of regular topics of gloom and doom on the forums predicting Guild Wars 2 end just around the next corner. Yet here we are arguably one of the best MMOs available and growing (unlike most others) with people anxious to hear about if the next expansion is an underwater one.

>

> If people want to have drama or actually go play a fail MMO: Blade and Soul, BDO, Bless and a multitude more are out there waiting for more players.

 

Too bad all the people that hung around crying for challenge didn't follow this advice.. but.. Hopefully you will get your wish. After all.. I bet many WoW players said lines like this..

 

> If people want to have drama or actually go play a fail MMO: Blade and Soul, BDO, Bless and a multitude more are out there waiting for more players.

 

Which really amounts to "Love it or leave it".. and then WoW lost 2 million players in 1 year.. and over the next 4 years lost a total of 5 million players cutting their population more then in half.... and I don't think they are crying "If you don't like it leave" anymore.. who knows.. maybe that are.. and many are taking that advice..

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Then you are a better player then me, as it took me over a week, playing for 2 hours day, to finally beat the Mad King, which I am sure that I put in more effort to learn and beat that JP then any here took to learn and beat Vale Guardian.

> >

> > That's why we need different content in PvE and especially harder things because some of us are **better** at this game than others. This statement is far from being toxic as it is the same about me saying that I'm an awful tennis player compared to millions of players in the world.

>

> I am fine with you getting your content.. what I am not fine with it locking legendary armor behind it.

>

> > Latest revenues tell a different story. NCSoft is happy about the moneyz. I think you are way to pessimistic and actually not really in a good mood. Maybe you need a break from the game or change something in your life.

> >

>

> I already have a game I plan to move on to picked out, it's still in Beta, so, I have time till it goes live. But, I have already ceased any long term goals in GW2, still looking the best way to liquidate my stuff, as I hope to give my guild a substantial parting gift, but, as of right now, I am just screwing around in HoT, maybe even finally get my scrapper hammer before I go.. I might not.. no worries either way for me at this point. As you said.. maybe I should go.. and you're right.. anyone not happy should move on. Too bad so many stayed around and cried about needing challenge as opposed to following that advice.

>

> But as I see it, if Raids were the only thing keeping you here, then you didn't really enjoy the other parts of the game, whereas I loved the whole other parts of the game, and they opted to lock the long term goals behind content that was above my skill level.

>

> It was their choice on who to placate. Do I think it will end poorly for them, yes I do, but hey.. WoW made some blunders as well, no surprise that GW2 will too, But.. I am sure the loss of little ol me.. won't affect them none.

>

 

If It's taking you 3 years to get the scrapper hammer then your cup runneth over with long term goals without ever needing to think about legendary armor.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So what?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Don't you have enough other junk like Unique Weapon, Armor and Back skins, along with titles, miniatures and whatever (not sure all the unique things that Raids offer, TBH) to placate your need for things to display and flaunt your accomplishments?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I mean really.. how much do you need?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If the answer is Everything.. then that is why Anet made a mistake going in this direction to start with.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Actually i have no legendaries at all, my best skin is eidolan (shield), and my most worn titles by far are dungeon master and champion paragon.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ok.. so why the issue?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I mean.. legit. I do not get this.. if the people that are doing raids are not parading out all the bells and whistles banging their Raid Exclusive **Drum** as it were, _saying look at me and what I can do_ . why should they care if someone like @"Ohoni.6057" can get a skin from a really ugly set of armor, that they also would not wear?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For a similar reason that if you were in a tournament of some kind that you would want first place to get a better rewards than second place. Well I'm actually not so sure about you specifically now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From what he's said over the past few pages, I gather that he got burned in wow raiding and came to gw2 to get away from it, and now feels betrayed over the fact that anet introduced raids, and wants them gone asap.

> > > > >

> > > > > I never played WoW.. and spare us all the pseudo-psychobabble.

> > > >

> > > > You seem to reference it as though you've lived and breathed it though.

> > >

> > > LOL, I did live and breathe that awakening, I was there and I watched WoW be born and I watched EQ die in it's wake, I even played with a few of the developers of WoW when we all played EQ together. I just never played WoW directly.

> > So all your knowledge on wow comes as an observer and not a player?

> >

> > >Yah but my accuracy is better then yours.

> > doubtful considering you've said you've never played it.

> >

> > >Now, if you are done talking about me, like it matters, can you get back on topic?

> > sure, which one: the argument on skins, the argument on easy modes, the argument over toxicity, or the argument on Ferrari? They all seem to be going in circles, ours seems to be one of the few breaks we've gotten from it. Refreshing if I might say.

> >

> >

>

> I wish.. the personal attacks and assumptions about me started as far back as Page 20. They were wrong then, and they are Wrong now.

>

> Also.. yes.. as an observer, my glasses are not as tinted as others, which allowed me to see the reality as it was, not as I wished it was. Much in the same way your rose tinted glasses regarding raids, don't allow you to see how bad they are for this game.

>

Your glasses are tinted, just with a different colour. As for raids being bad for the game, would rather have them than the content drought. And if you can't be bothered to state why they're bad, I can't be bothered to look your points up either. (guessing though the dreaded "toxic elitist"/gating of centent [as if that already didn't happen with dungeons and fractals])

People I played with got bored of pve quickly, and any friends I convinced to play always asked "now what".

 

> And, this whole topic is supposed to be about Easy Mode Raids.. if you need a break from that.. maybe you should take a break from the topic as a whole.

When was the last time we even talked about it tough? Past few pages have been about rewards, feraris, and about the seven deadly sins of all things. Did not see that last one coming.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Here is what I hope:

> >

> > I hope that Arenanet have enough experience, metrics and innovation to keep the game interesting and in good health for multiple years to come. God knows many other developers suck at this part (looking at you Bliz...I mean Activision). If this results in game modes I enjoy to get removed, revamped, amended or in other ways edited I hope I'll have enough fun with the game to stay and/or enjoy the future game. As long as it keeps the game healthy and fun, that's okay by me. If that means easy raids, no raids, harder raids or what ever, I will adapt or leave simple as that. Maybe have a little faith in the developers that their approach is for the good of the game and overall player base, even if you disagree.

> >

> > It's funny how bleak some people perceive GW2 currently when honestly almost everything Arenanet has been doing since HoT (and them learning from their first expansion) has been pretty much amazing. To forgotten are the times of a year long Silverwastes with no endgame, of regular topics of gloom and doom on the forums predicting Guild Wars 2 end just around the next corner. Yet here we are arguably one of the best MMOs available and growing (unlike most others) with people anxious to hear about if the next expansion is an underwater one.

> >

> > If people want to have drama or actually go play a fail MMO: Blade and Soul, BDO, Bless and a multitude more are out there waiting for more players.

>

> Too bad all the people that hung around crying for challenge didn't follow this advice.. but.. Hopefully you will get your wish. After all.. I bet many WoW players said lines like this..

>

 

The difference being that the metrics and data showed a huge lack of content and a diminishing player base. Thus the result was that Arenanet adapted their approach. You are essentially making an argument that the game should revert to a less successful state which doesn't really make sense.

 

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > If people want to have drama or actually go play a fail MMO: Blade and Soul, BDO, Bless and a multitude more are out there waiting for more players.

>

> Which really amounts to "Love it or leave it".. and then WoW lost 2 million players in 1 year.. and over the next 4 years lost a total of 5 million players cutting their population more then in half.... and I don't think they are crying "If you don't like it leave" anymore.. who knows.. maybe that are.. and many are taking that advice..

 

WoW losing players was due to way different reasons than raids or anything remotely similar as Guild Wars 2, beside the fact that the game is now turning 14 years and really shows its age.

 

Also I wasn't telling you to Love or leave, at least not in that part. That part was more ment as a reference how often people love to see the greener grass on the other side of the fence until they actual go there only to come back praising GW2.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > Very few have asked for the same loot as normal for an easy, but it's been spun into the argument somehow.

>

> I don't know why you find it odd, but the rewards ARE the largest topic of discussion in this thread and every other one on this subject. Very few ask about it, but they keep asking about it for pages and pages. I think already on the first few pages there was an understanding by many about giving different rewards on different tiers of play. But of course it wasn't enough.

>

> Now on to your own suggestion, I'm a bit confused but how exactly is having a training mode for Raids going to help you find a team for the normal ones?

> For example, running lower Tier Fractals won't open up higher tiers for any player. Or running T4 Fractals won't allow you to be accepted into teams going for the CMs.

> Is this training mode going to give you LI and KP so you can enter the normal tier Raids? If that's the case then I expect a massive swift in how pugs work and an insane increase in LI requirements if that ever happens.

 

What dows the "first post say? what did the vote ask? nothing about loot, just other modes. The Loot got spun in later.

How can you not see how an easy mode with all the same mechanics but much more forgiving (depending on if its looted as easy mode or no loot as a trainer) teach someone actively the mechanics of the given raid. Case in point, watched a video 3 times, started Cairn in a training group, got screwed up because watching is different from doing.

The point is external videos and guides are a crutch that we have allowed game companies to lean on for too long. Put the kitten tools in the game to learn the fight.

Do you complain if any other compplex product you buy does not include instructions? ya know "some assembly required" but no instructions. In any other industry we call and point out there "mistake"

The loot has to be drug in so elites will have something to complain about. If the mode rewards substandard loot or no loot you can no longer argue against it except with some lameass "developer time constraints argument" People see thru it to the elitism. But, if someone spins in the loot raiders can be the noble victim and martyr of "they can't have it easier than me" and can hide their arrogance

Basically if a well geared, reasonably intelligent group of players cannot walk blind into a scenario and figure out and clear the lowest possible settings within 4 or 5 hours....The company did not do their job of making their product usable for their customer. I'm not gonna go to Books-a-million to learn how to use a product I bought at Lowe's . For Lowes to expect that would be viewed as stupid by anyone. So why do we allow game companies to do it