Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[nia.4725]

> @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > Very few have asked for the same loot as normal for an easy, but it's been spun into the argument somehow.

> >

> > I don't know why you find it odd, but the rewards ARE the largest topic of discussion in this thread and every other one on this subject. Very few ask about it, but they keep asking about it for pages and pages. I think already on the first few pages there was an understanding by many about giving different rewards on different tiers of play. But of course it wasn't enough.

> >

> > Now on to your own suggestion, I'm a bit confused but how exactly is having a training mode for Raids going to help you find a team for the normal ones?

> > For example, running lower Tier Fractals won't open up higher tiers for any player. Or running T4 Fractals won't allow you to be accepted into teams going for the CMs.

> > Is this training mode going to give you LI and KP so you can enter the normal tier Raids? If that's the case then I expect a massive swift in how pugs work and an insane increase in LI requirements if that ever happens.

>

> What dows the "first post say? what did the vote ask? nothing about loot, just other modes. The Loot got spun in later.

> How can you not see how an easy mode with all the same mechanics but much more forgiving (depending on if its looted as easy mode or no loot as a trainer) teach someone actively the mechanics of the given raid. Case in point, watched a video 3 times, started Cairn in a training group, got screwed up because watching is different from doing.

> The point is external videos and guides are a crutch that we have allowed game companies to lean on for too long. Put the kitten tools in the game to learn the fight.

> Do you complain if any other compplex product you buy does not include instructions? ya know "some assembly required" but no instructions. In any other industry we call and point out there "mistake"

 

You replied to yourself. Watching a video is not the same as doing, and doing forgiving-easy-mode will never be the same as doing normal mode. If you can be outside Saul's bubble and not get high damage you won't learn how to deal with the right thing. You'll get used to be able to stay outside of the bubble, then you'll go to normal mode Deimos, you'll play as you will have learnt to play on easy mode and... You'll die.

 

I do think that a training mode is necessary but the boss should remain exactly the same. Otherwise you're not training anything, you're just getting bad habits.

 

Also I agree that anet should not rely so heavily on the community's goodness and willingness to teach and produce guides. But I don't think giving us the info about how the boss works and how to deal with it is the solution, either. That would make raids incredibly boring.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > > Very few have asked for the same loot as normal for an easy, but it's been spun into the argument somehow.

> > >

> > > I don't know why you find it odd, but the rewards ARE the largest topic of discussion in this thread and every other one on this subject. Very few ask about it, but they keep asking about it for pages and pages. I think already on the first few pages there was an understanding by many about giving different rewards on different tiers of play. But of course it wasn't enough.

> > >

> > > Now on to your own suggestion, I'm a bit confused but how exactly is having a training mode for Raids going to help you find a team for the normal ones?

> > > For example, running lower Tier Fractals won't open up higher tiers for any player. Or running T4 Fractals won't allow you to be accepted into teams going for the CMs.

> > > Is this training mode going to give you LI and KP so you can enter the normal tier Raids? If that's the case then I expect a massive swift in how pugs work and an insane increase in LI requirements if that ever happens.

> >

> > What dows the "first post say? what did the vote ask? nothing about loot, just other modes. The Loot got spun in later.

> > How can you not see how an easy mode with all the same mechanics but much more forgiving (depending on if its looted as easy mode or no loot as a trainer) teach someone actively the mechanics of the given raid. Case in point, watched a video 3 times, started Cairn in a training group, got screwed up because watching is different from doing.

> > The point is external videos and guides are a crutch that we have allowed game companies to lean on for too long. Put the kitten tools in the game to learn the fight.

> > Do you complain if any other compplex product you buy does not include instructions? ya know "some assembly required" but no instructions. In any other industry we call and point out there "mistake"

>

> You replied to yourself. Watching a video is not the same as doing, and doing forgiving-easy-mode will never be the same as doing normal mode. If you can be outside Saul's bubble and not get high damage you won't learn how to deal with the right thing. You'll get used to be able to stay outside of the bubble, then you'll go to normal mode Deimos, you'll play as you will have learnt to play on easy mode and... You'll die.

>

> I do think that a training mode is necessary but the boss should remain exactly the same. Otherwise you're not training anything, you're just getting bad habits.

>

> Also I agree that anet should not rely so heavily on the community's goodness and willingness to teach and produce guides. But I don't think giving us the info about how the boss works and how to deal with it is the solution, either. That would make raids incredibly boring.

 

I could get behind that tbh, if the mechanics are exactly the same whatever. anything that would make it possible to go in and face the boss without the hassle of setting everything up. I mean who's gonna respond to "hey, we've never done this before but are going to go take on VG" they'll never get the people until Johnny Crook from the Den of Weasels guild tells them his people can get em in for a "small fee"

[nia.4725]

> @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> > > > > Very few have asked for the same loot as normal for an easy, but it's been spun into the argument somehow.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know why you find it odd, but the rewards ARE the largest topic of discussion in this thread and every other one on this subject. Very few ask about it, but they keep asking about it for pages and pages. I think already on the first few pages there was an understanding by many about giving different rewards on different tiers of play. But of course it wasn't enough.

> > > >

> > > > Now on to your own suggestion, I'm a bit confused but how exactly is having a training mode for Raids going to help you find a team for the normal ones?

> > > > For example, running lower Tier Fractals won't open up higher tiers for any player. Or running T4 Fractals won't allow you to be accepted into teams going for the CMs.

> > > > Is this training mode going to give you LI and KP so you can enter the normal tier Raids? If that's the case then I expect a massive swift in how pugs work and an insane increase in LI requirements if that ever happens.

> > >

> > > What dows the "first post say? what did the vote ask? nothing about loot, just other modes. The Loot got spun in later.

> > > How can you not see how an easy mode with all the same mechanics but much more forgiving (depending on if its looted as easy mode or no loot as a trainer) teach someone actively the mechanics of the given raid. Case in point, watched a video 3 times, started Cairn in a training group, got screwed up because watching is different from doing.

> > > The point is external videos and guides are a crutch that we have allowed game companies to lean on for too long. Put the kitten tools in the game to learn the fight.

> > > Do you complain if any other compplex product you buy does not include instructions? ya know "some assembly required" but no instructions. In any other industry we call and point out there "mistake"

> >

> > You replied to yourself. Watching a video is not the same as doing, and doing forgiving-easy-mode will never be the same as doing normal mode. If you can be outside Saul's bubble and not get high damage you won't learn how to deal with the right thing. You'll get used to be able to stay outside of the bubble, then you'll go to normal mode Deimos, you'll play as you will have learnt to play on easy mode and... You'll die.

> >

> > I do think that a training mode is necessary but the boss should remain exactly the same. Otherwise you're not training anything, you're just getting bad habits.

> >

> > Also I agree that anet should not rely so heavily on the community's goodness and willingness to teach and produce guides. But I don't think giving us the info about how the boss works and how to deal with it is the solution, either. That would make raids incredibly boring.

>

> I could get behind that tbh, if the mechanics are exactly the same whatever. anything that would make it possible to go in and face the boss without the hassle of setting everything up. I mean who's gonna respond to "hey, we've never done this before but are going to go take on VG" they'll never get the people until Johnny Crook from the Den of Weasels guild tells them his people can get em in for a "small fee"

 

Well, I do think that those "first time VG" LFGs always end up filling, and often they even get experienced people. I've been joining training runs today, and yesterday too, pretty much all day, and we always got 10 people. At least 2 people out of 10 had experience on the boss. Trainings do not always end well for many reasons but I really think they are doable. However, things get messy and frustrating when the group does not have a common goal. I also have to admit that some newbies have no patience at all and expect to get a kill on the first try, and because they don't, they leave. Experienced raiders are far more patient, when they are aware that they are in a training run.

[Roxhemar.6039]

I swear this thread has become more about legendary armor and less about what needs to change, regarding raids. Like lolwut?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > From what he's said over the past few pages, I gather that he got burned in wow raiding and came to gw2 to get away from it, and now feels betrayed over the fact that anet introduced raids, and wants them gone asap.

> > A lot of gw2 players were like that. When it launched, it was a heaven for refugees from previous MMOs (mainly WoW), that hoped they have finally found a game that would let them escape from the whole raid-induced mentality that their previous games had (but GW2 didn't). Cue Anet introducing raids here.

> >

>

> This makes no sense at all since you are not forced to play raids in GW2.

 

This is true, unless you want Legendary Armor and hate raids as much as WvW and Spvp. There needs to be another option.

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> If It's taking you 3 years to get the scrapper hammer then your cup runneth over with long term goals without ever needing to think about legendary armor.

 

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe I hated HoT, and it was not until PoF's introduction of Mounts ( and even then not until I maxed mastery of them) that I was willing to even bother return to HoT?

 

Did that prospect dawn on you that HoT was dead content to me, and all the goals within it were dust? See that is what happens when content is unappealing .. ALL the rewards and ALL the aspects of it.. die to the player.

 

I started my scrapper hammer on a whim last week..(To clear this up, it came up as I started to do Astralaria) to see if HoT still sucked as bad I remember. So far it has been easy enough to make progress,. if it hand't been.. I would have left again.

 

Sure... I may have wanted some of the items in HoT.. but I was not willing to do the content to get them.. which.. HA HA.. builds animosity towards the player. How about that.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Roxhemar.6039" said:

> I swear this thread has become more about legendary armor and less about what needs to change, regarding raids. Like lolwut?

 

That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> WoW losing players was due to way different reasons than raids or anything remotely similar as Guild Wars 2, beside the fact that the game is now turning 14 years and really shows its age.

 

You only think it's not related, but allow me to bestow this small gem of wisdom to you. IEveryone would agree that over the years Blizzard put in unappealing content, and made design direction mistakes with their game.. now process that. the makers of WoW, the most successful MMO of the generation, did not have the metrics to know what content to make to keep their population in growth, or at the very least, stopgap the losses, what gives you the illusion to think that Anet does?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Also.. yes.. as an observer, my glasses are not as tinted as others, which allowed me to see the reality as it was, not as I wished it was. Much in the same way your rose tinted glasses regarding raids, don't allow you to see how bad they are for this game.

> >

> Your glasses are tinted, just with a different colour. As for raids being bad for the game, would rather have them than the content drought. And if you can't be bothered to state why they're bad, I can't be bothered to look your points up either. (guessing though the dreaded "toxic elitist"/gating of centent [as if that already didn't happen with dungeons and fractals])

 

Wait so let me see if I have this right.. I explain my stand around a dozen times on this topic alone.. But unless I do that AGAIN.. I'm the bad guy because you can't be bothered to look it up?

 

Just trying to process the logic at work here.

 

> > And, this whole topic is supposed to be about Easy Mode Raids.. if you need a break from that.. maybe you should take a break from the topic as a whole.

> When was the last time we even talked about it tough? Past few pages have been about rewards, feraris, and about the seven deadly sins of all things. Did not see that last one coming.

 

And yet it all followed and played upon the idea of easy mode raids in a roundabout circle way.. unlike your psychobabble about my motives.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > >So it's not that there is no good reason or no reasonable reason, but rather there is no reason that people who raid should get exclusive rewards? Think carefully about that statement.

> >

> > Still a "no" from me. What reason do *you* think that people who raid should get exclusive rewards?

>

> Same reason I'm sure many people would love for more game unique rewards across the board:

>

> A. give different players of different game modes something to work towards

> B. entice/encourage players to try all the different parts of the game as to increase value spent of development time going into them

> C. prevent players from burning out on just 1 game mode

 

A. You can do that without exclusive rewards.

B. This is a good reason to have very shallow rewards, but does not justify having exclusive deep rewards.

C. That's up to the player. Give them reasons to try different modes, but respect the choices they make. A player is more likely to burn out playing new content he hates than playing older content that he still enjoys.

 

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

>If there had been a good description of it I would had tried it sooner. Being forced to step into it with Gift of Battle not only did it finish Gift of Battle I became hooked on it and joined a WvW guild. I'd been in PVE guilds but had no one to talk to or communicate with etc... Being part of WvW was so much better.

 

Like I said, it's nice to have a small amount of *short term* goals that can get you to give new modes a *try* every now and then, but they also need to respect your decision once you have tried it, not everyone likes green eggs and ham.

 

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > >So it's not that there is no good reason or no reasonable reason, but rather there is no reason that people who raid should get exclusive rewards? Think carefully about that statement.

> > Still a "no" from me. What reason do *you* think that people who raid should get exclusive rewards?

>

> Well you see you claimed that there was _no_ reason. What you were probably planning for is me giving a reason why raiders deserve exclusive rewards and you arguing against it and both of us descending back into madness where you try to beat people with your verbosity (doesn't work btw). But what's actually going to probably happen is I'm going to stick that phrase you wrote "There is **NO REASON** why they [raiders] should have exclusive access to **ANYTHING**." to you and force you to defend it and my prediction is you will eventually stop responding after evading it for a while.

 

Ok.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

>This makes no sense at all since you are not forced to play raids in GW2. There's no story progression involved and you won't be stopped or excluded from important content. You can leave raids aside and still have the best gear with ascended stuff.

 

Nonsense.

 

That may be your opinion, but that only matters for how *you* play the game. To other players, the story of the raids *is* important, the rewards gated by raids *are* important, and whether or not they are important *to you* does not invalidate *their* views on the matter.

 

>I'm sorry but it sounds more like a cheap excuse and a lot of bitterness that there is harder content not available for the average Joe.

 

Then an easy way to fix that, make an easy mode that has everything raids currently have, just without the "harder content" part. Problem solved, everyone satisfied.

 

>Wow, I think it's highly debatable that the Winters Day JP takes as much skill as to kill a raid boss. I've done everything in PvE and JPs are by far easier to learn than raid bosses.

 

Easier to learn, sometimes harder to *execute.* The tougher jump puzzles require better twitch skills than raid encounters.

 

>Also a lot of debaters here aren't average raiders that just learned some rotations of their classes and the boss mechanics by heart. They know their main classes well and can tell you more about traits, specs and skills + synergies than 99% of the whole PvE player base. Additionally most of them are longtime veterans, already active during dungeon peak times in the past. In my opinion and that is far from toxicity those players deserve to have an appropriate reward that others do not. It's just a matter of sportive fairness.

 

Siome raiders *do* meet that definition. Not all do. And not all non-raiders *don't* meet those standards. "Raider" and "experienced and upstanding member of the community" are loosely correlated at best. The act of raiding itself does not justify superior rewards. Again, I'm not saying that there *shouldn't* be good rewards for clearing raids, just that there should be *other* ways of earning those same rewards, for those members of the community who *are* "experienced and upstanding member of the community," but are *not* raiders.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > I probably would have had more fun waiting every week for Priory Explorer Elise and being excited about what recipe she's offering next and wondering when and where's she's going to be found. It diversifies player experience. It gives items tangible meaning and makes them cool. And by making people do a variety of things aside from their number 1 favorite thing it prevents burn out.

> >

> > But none of what you describe could be compared at all to raiding. You describe minor inconveniences and half-week grinds, when what we're talking about is a multi-month grind of very complex and deliberately annoying content. Apples and oranges.

>

> No. It's apples to bigger apples.

 

Ok, ok, fine, "it's comparing apples to apples the size of Buick that are a real PITK to cart around or eat." Better?

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>In JPs it's all up to you, you can't get wiped because someone else made a crucial mistake.

 

That's not challenge, that's just RNG. If you have a game where you have to throw a ball through a hoop, and then a second game that's the same except that there's a 20% chance each time you throw that the hoop will seal off, that second game isn't any *harder* than the first, it's just more likely to *fail.* Challenge only involves elements *you* can control. Anything outside your control is not relevant to challenge. The potential for *other players* to mess up a run does not make it more challenging, it just makes it more likely to fail.

 

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Roxhemar.6039" said:

> > I swear this thread has become more about legendary armor and less about what needs to change, regarding raids. Like lolwut?

>

> That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

 

GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

 

 

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Also.. yes.. as an observer, my glasses are not as tinted as others, which allowed me to see the reality as it was, not as I wished it was. Much in the same way your rose tinted glasses regarding raids, don't allow you to see how bad they are for this game.

> > >

> > Your glasses are tinted, just with a different colour. As for raids being bad for the game, would rather have them than the content drought. And if you can't be bothered to state why they're bad, I can't be bothered to look your points up either. (guessing though the dreaded "toxic elitist"/gating of centent [as if that already didn't happen with dungeons and fractals])

>

> Wait so let me see if I have this right.. I explain my stand around a dozen times on this topic alone.. But unless I do that AGAIN.. I'm the bad guy because you can't be bothered to look it up?

who said anything about you being a bad guy?

>

> Just trying to process the logic at work here.

>

> > > And, this whole topic is supposed to be about Easy Mode Raids.. if you need a break from that.. maybe you should take a break from the topic as a whole.

> > When was the last time we even talked about it tough? Past few pages have been about rewards, feraris, and about the seven deadly sins of all things. Did not see that last one coming.

>

> And yet it all followed and played upon the idea of easy mode raids in a roundabout circle way.. unlike your psychobabble about my motives.

Which you still haven't answered btw

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > >So it's not that there is no good reason or no reasonable reason, but rather there is no reason that people who raid should get exclusive rewards? Think carefully about that statement.

> > >

> > > Still a "no" from me. What reason do *you* think that people who raid should get exclusive rewards?

> >

> > Same reason I'm sure many people would love for more game unique rewards across the board:

> >

> > A. give different players of different game modes something to work towards

> > B. entice/encourage players to try all the different parts of the game as to increase value spent of development time going into them

> > C. prevent players from burning out on just 1 game mode

>

> A. You can do that without exclusive rewards.

> B. This is a good reason to have very shallow rewards, but does not justify having exclusive deep rewards.

> C. That's up to the player. Give them reasons to try different modes, but respect the choices they make. A player is more likely to burn out playing new content he hates than playing older content that he still enjoys.

>

 

A. That doesn't make sense, if I can get rewards multiple ways, how is this going to get me to try game modes I might otherwise have skipped or never dared try? Ohoni, you are living breathing proof that exclusive rewards are very effective in getting people interested (though you chose a different path to attempt to gain said rewards). You have been active in this thread for ages and jump on the discussion every time some one new brings this up again. If this doesn't demonstrate interest I don't know what is.

 

B. I beg to differ. Some of the most encouraging rewards are the unique ones per game mode, even if it's only a skin like the legendary backpack it gets people to move out of their comfort zone.

 

C. True, I don't see how Arenanet is disrespecting your choice to not play raids though, it's not as though they've stopped creating content for other parts of the game. They even added functionality of legendary armor to other game modes. This of course only makes sense if you are in favor of giving game modes unique rewards.

 

Again I'll repeat what I said earlier:

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Here is where this situation is effectively at:

> **In order to force or motivate a change the benefits need to outweigh enough for such a course of action to make sense. At best what this thread has shown is that a couple of forum warriors with to much time on their hands from both sides of the debate are arguing in circles. That does not constitute a valid amount of possible positive change.**

>

> Your only disadvantage is that you are not on the side of people who are content with the current situation.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

>

> GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

 

It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

> >

> > GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

>

> It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

 

I think what needs to happen is for another PVE Legendary set to be released, not attached to Raids. That would probably address a lot of the issues and people then have choices. Could combine, parts of HoT and PoF to acquire.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> A. That doesn't make sense, if I can get rewards multiple ways, how is this going to get me to try game modes I might otherwise have skipped or never dared try?

 

Like I said, you can have *shallow* rewards that attract attention, just so long as you don't assume that they'll stick around for months just to get it. Make it somethign that will draw them in for a few hours, don't hold them hostage indefinitely. You can also weight rewards, so that a "WvW" item is much faster and easier to acquire via WvW, but it's still *possible* to earn it elsewhere. Players that like the mode *at all* would be best off staying there until they have the item they're trying to get, but if they really aren't having any fun, they have other options.

 

>Ohoni, you are living breathing proof that exclusive rewards are very effective in getting people interested (though you chose a different path to attempt to gain said rewards). You have been active in this thread for ages and jump on the discussion every time some one new brings this up again. If this doesn't demonstrate interest I don't know what is.

 

But it's also proof that interest isn't *enough.* It's good to give players interest in a mode, but the mode needs to stand up for itself without the rewards being a factor. There is **no** benefit in a player playing a mode that he is not enjoying just in pursuit of a prize. That is a player who the game is harming, not benefiting.

 

>>B. This is a good reason to have very shallow rewards, but does not justify having exclusive deep rewards.

>B. I beg to differ. Some of the most encouraging rewards are the unique ones per game mode, even if it's only a skin like the legendary backpack it gets people to move out of their comfort zone.

 

That's not disagreeing with the point I made.

 

>C. True, I don't see how Arenanet is disrespecting your choice to not play raids though, it's not as though they've stopped creating content for other parts of the game.

 

Because if I don't participate in raids, then I can't experience the story they attached to them, or access the rewards they locked behind them. My point is, they should say "ok, you didn't enjoy that? That's fine, everyone is different. You can now walk away and *miss out on* **nothing."** So long as that content remains locked behind that mode, it is not respecting the player's choice, it is *punishing* them for it.

 

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

> >

> > GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

>

> It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

 

Or, subvert their expectations, and say "you can have raids if you like, but that by no means entitles you to exclusive access to any rewards. We *also* care about our *existing* players."

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >In JPs it's all up to you, you can't get wiped because someone else made a crucial mistake.

>

> That's not challenge, that's just RNG. If you have a game where you have to throw a ball through a hoop, and then a second game that's the same except that there's a 20% chance each time you throw that the hoop will seal off, that second game isn't any *harder* than the first, it's just more likely to *fail.* Challenge only involves elements *you* can control. Anything outside your control is not relevant to challenge. The potential for *other players* to mess up a run does not make it more challenging, it just makes it more likely to fail.

 

Communication with the other players in the group and overall improvement in the group performance are totally things you *can* do. I know it, because I've done it. So no, challenge designed and coming from balancing for a group is something very real.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >In JPs it's all up to you, you can't get wiped because someone else made a crucial mistake.

> >

> > That's not challenge, that's just RNG. If you have a game where you have to throw a ball through a hoop, and then a second game that's the same except that there's a 20% chance each time you throw that the hoop will seal off, that second game isn't any *harder* than the first, it's just more likely to *fail.* Challenge only involves elements *you* can control. Anything outside your control is not relevant to challenge. The potential for *other players* to mess up a run does not make it more challenging, it just makes it more likely to fail.

>

> Communication with the other players in the group and overall improvement in the group performance are totally things you *can* do. I know it, because I've done it. So no, challenge designed and coming from balancing for a group is something very real.

 

Lol, if you say so.

[Feanor.2358]

I do. And I'm either right, or there's a *very* bad RNG involved, because the chances of failure consistently drop over time spent with the same group.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Nonsense.

>

> That may be your opinion, but that only matters for how *you* play the game. To other players, the story of the raids *is* important, the rewards gated by raids *are* important, and whether or not they are important *to you* does not invalidate *their* views on the matter.

 

No, it's not nonsense. The usual raid rewards don't give any advantage over the ones you can get in the rest of the PvE content. The best stats are ascended and you can get/craft that without having to set one single foot into a raid.

And if a player is so heavily focussed and dedicated to specific rewards that he really thinks **"I must have those"** (which is within my definition of not being sane irl) he definitely won't care about the route to it and do whatever is necessary to achieve it.

 

> Easier to learn, sometimes harder to *execute.* The tougher jump puzzles require better twitch skills than raid encounters.

>

No, **THAT** is real nonsense. JPs are way easier than raids. Way fricking easier. Maybe some of you are heavily unskilled and we can easily break it down to the Dunning–Kruger effect.

 

> Some raiders *do* meet that definition. Not all do. And not all non-raiders *don't* meet those standards. "Raider" and "experienced and upstanding member of the community" are loosely correlated at best.

 

Most of them do meet that definition. Still raiders are better players like you. That's for sure and without a doubt. And that's the reason why you shouldn't get that Envoy armor. I'm happy that Anet is thinking the same and won't listen to your crude ideas.

 

>The act of raiding itself does not justify superior rewards. Again, I'm not saying that there *shouldn't* be good rewards for clearing raids, just that there should be *other* ways of earning those same rewards, for those members of the community who *are* "experienced and upstanding member of the community," but are *not* raiders.

 

No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> I do. And I'm either right, or there's a *very* bad RNG involved, because the chances of failure consistently drop over time spent with the same group.

 

That would be because each of them would be improving their own capabilities, but whether they succeed or fail is still largely outside your control Maybe you can have some small influence, like a +1 modifier on a die roll, but ultimately it's up to them whether they get it right or not, and you can take every step possibly allowed to you and still have an attempt collapse due to someone else's mistakes. In the abstract, that's not "random," it's mostly deterministic actions, but from the perspective of any individual player, it is "RNG," because every player in the raid could be replaced by a bot who would do it perfectly, and just keep rolling a D20 to see if they get a critical failure, and arrive at the same outcome.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

>The usual raid rewards don't give any advantage over the ones you can get in the rest of the PvE content.

 

And whether they provide gameplay advantage or not is irrelevant to whether they have *value.* So long as they are something you can take out of the raid, they matter to the game outside of the raid.

 

>The best stats are ascended and you can get/craft that without having to set one single foot into a raid.

 

So what? How do you get the *skins* outside the raid? *That's* the important part.

 

>And if a player is so heavily focussed and dedicated to specific rewards that he really thinks "I must have those" (which is within my definition of not being sane irl) he definitely won't care about the route to it and do whatever is necessary to achieve it.

 

No, he will care, he will just *put up with it,* which is not the same as a positive outcome. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if a player wants a reward, but hates the method for acquiring it, then only two possible outcomes exist, A. He does the thing anyway, and does not enjoy his time playing the game, or B. He never gets the thing he wants. **Neither** of these outcomes is a positive one, at best it's weighing which is the *least bad* alternative. It is better by far to present *good* alternatives, such as "C. He can do something else that he does enjoy to unlock that thing."

 

>No, THAT is real nonsense. JPs are way easier than raids. Way fricking easier. Maybe some of you are heavily unskilled and we can easily break it down to the Dunning–Kruger effect.

 

Ok, which raid encounter requires more individual player twitch skill than the Mad King's Clocktower?

 

>Still raiders are better players like you. That's for sure and without a doubt.

 

Nope.

 

>No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards.

 

Ok, arguable, but it's fine if you think that. But raiders are NOT better players than non-raiders. They are just players who raid. There is nothing "superior" about them. It'd be like saying that "people who like Bell Choir Ensemble are better players who deserve better rewards." It's just a different mode of the game that appeals to some players' tastes and not others.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > I do. And I'm either right, or there's a *very* bad RNG involved, because the chances of failure consistently drop over time spent with the same group.

>

> That would be because each of them would be improving their own capabilities, but whether they succeed or fail is still largely outside your control

 

You couldn't be more wrong. But please tell me more how the content I play and you don't works.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > I do. And I'm either right, or there's a *very* bad RNG involved, because the chances of failure consistently drop over time spent with the same group.

> >

> > That would be because each of them would be improving their own capabilities, but whether they succeed or fail is still largely outside your control

>

> You couldn't be more wrong. But please tell me more how the content I play and you don't works.

 

What would you like to know? Sometimes it's easy to be blinded while on the inside of something, like those raiders who think that other players are actually *impressed* by their raid-rewards, rather than just interested in the work of the designers that *made* those rewards.

[Vinceman.4572]

> And whether they provide gameplay advantage or not is irrelevant to whether they have *value.* So long as they are something you can take out of the raid, they matter to the game outside of the raid.

 

If people think they have value for them they would play the kind of content because it would be important for them. But I know for sure that most of the humans are rational individuals and if they mean they can't achieve something in a game they just leave it out because...yeah, it's a game. That doesn't mean they leave the game they just don't see so much value in a single skin which isn't giving any advantage at all. The ones acting irrational are kids or people with severe difficulties irl.

 

> >The best stats are ascended and you can get/craft that without having to set one single foot into a raid.

> So what? How do you get the *skins* outside the raid? *That's* the important part.

 

See above, it's a skin. One of thousands. If you want to have it, play the content otherwise you won't miss anything but the skin which doesn't prevent you from playing all the stuff in the game.

 

> No, he will care.

 

No, **you** will care but we already know that you are a special snowflake.

 

> >No, THAT is real nonsense. JPs are way easier than raids. Way fricking easier. Maybe some of you are heavily unskilled and we can easily break it down to the Dunning–Kruger effect.

>

> Ok, which raid encounter requires more individual player twitch skill than the Mad King's Clocktower?

 

You need your mouse, 2 buttons (run forward, mostly "w" and jump, mostly "space") of the keyboard and reaction to the Clock tower. Even on Mursaat Overseer, the easiest boss you won't be able to beat him with "w", a 2nd button, the mouse and the reaction to the boss. And Cyninja already explained it, you don't need much practice for the tower if you are a good player. If you are bad you maybe need weeks to get it done. (I did them all and JPs are a joke compared to raid bosses)

 

> >Still raiders are better players like you. That's for sure and without a doubt.

> Nope.

 

Yes!

 

> >No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards.

>But raiders are NOT better players than non-raiders. They are just players who raid. There is nothing "superior" about them.

 

Yes, they are better and most of them **are superior** because they have invested way more insight into classes and into specs. They know more and they can execute things way better than others. The usual casual doesn't even know about a combo field or about all the weapons his class can use.

[yann.1946]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Nonsense.

> >

> > That may be your opinion, but that only matters for how *you* play the game. To other players, the story of the raids *is* important, the rewards gated by raids *are* important, and whether or not they are important *to you* does not invalidate *their* views on the matter.

>

> No, it's not nonsense. The usual raid rewards don't give any advantage over the ones you can get in the rest of the PvE content. The best stats are ascended and you can get/craft that without having to set one single foot into a raid.

> And if a player is so heavily focussed and dedicated to specific rewards that he really thinks **"I must have those"** (which is within my definition of not being sane irl) he definitely won't care about the route to it and do whatever is necessary to achieve it.

>

> > Easier to learn, sometimes harder to *execute.* The tougher jump puzzles require better twitch skills than raid encounters.

> >

> No, **THAT** is real nonsense. JPs are way easier than raids. Way fricking easier. Maybe some of you are heavily unskilled and we can easily break it down to the Dunning–Kruger effect.

>

> > Some raiders *do* meet that definition. Not all do. And not all non-raiders *don't* meet those standards. "Raider" and "experienced and upstanding member of the community" are loosely correlated at best.

>

> Most of them do meet that definition. Still raiders are better players like you. That's for sure and without a doubt. And that's the reason why you shouldn't get that Envoy armor. I'm happy that Anet is thinking the same and won't listen to your crude ideas.

>

> >The act of raiding itself does not justify superior rewards. Again, I'm not saying that there *shouldn't* be good rewards for clearing raids, just that there should be *other* ways of earning those same rewards, for those members of the community who *are* "experienced and upstanding member of the community," but are *not* raiders.

>

> No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports.

>

>

 

Well the better wat to word it is saying the rewards schould Balance out the path of least resistance.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > A. That doesn't make sense, if I can get rewards multiple ways, how is this going to get me to try game modes I might otherwise have skipped or never dared try?

>

> Like I said, you can have *shallow* rewards that attract attention, just so long as you don't assume that they'll stick around for months just to get it. Make it somethign that will draw them in for a few hours, don't hold them hostage indefinitely. You can also weight rewards, so that a "WvW" item is much faster and easier to acquire via WvW, but it's still *possible* to earn it elsewhere. Players that like the mode *at all* would be best off staying there until they have the item they're trying to get, but if they really aren't having any fun, they have other options.

>

> >Ohoni, you are living breathing proof that exclusive rewards are very effective in getting people interested (though you chose a different path to attempt to gain said rewards). You have been active in this thread for ages and jump on the discussion every time some one new brings this up again. If this doesn't demonstrate interest I don't know what is.

>

> But it's also proof that interest isn't *enough.* It's good to give players interest in a mode, but the mode needs to stand up for itself without the rewards being a factor. There is **no** benefit in a player playing a mode that he is not enjoying just in pursuit of a prize. That is a player who the game is harming, not benefiting.

>

> >>B. This is a good reason to have very shallow rewards, but does not justify having exclusive deep rewards.

> >B. I beg to differ. Some of the most encouraging rewards are the unique ones per game mode, even if it's only a skin like the legendary backpack it gets people to move out of their comfort zone.

>

> That's not disagreeing with the point I made.

>

> >C. True, I don't see how Arenanet is disrespecting your choice to not play raids though, it's not as though they've stopped creating content for other parts of the game.

>

> Because if I don't participate in raids, then I can't experience the story they attached to them, or access the rewards they locked behind them. My point is, they should say "ok, you didn't enjoy that? That's fine, everyone is different. You can now walk away and *miss out on* **nothing."** So long as that content remains locked behind that mode, it is not respecting the player's choice, it is *punishing* them for it.

>

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > That's because raids (heck, all harder instanced PvE content) and exclusive rewards are a single construct at this point in the genre's history. These two aspects of such content cannot be separated. All discussions of harder, instanced content are going to eventually come down to the rewards.

> > >

> > > GW2's already broken plenty of "the genre **must** be this way" rules. No reason this shouldn't be one of them.

> >

> > It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

>

> Or, subvert their expectations, and say "you can have raids if you like, but that by no means entitles you to exclusive access to any rewards. We *also* care about our *existing* players."

>

>

This is a response to the shallow buried comment.

 

But having unique things deep info a mode is also important. Look at the prizes of the automated tournament. The Gizmo you can acquire are only available There. This is important.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> If people think they have value for them they would play the kind of content because it would be important for them.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if a player wants a reward, but hates the method for acquiring it, then only two possible outcomes exist, A. He does the thing anyway, and does not enjoy his time playing the game, or B. He never gets the thing he wants. Neither of these outcomes is a positive one, at best it's weighing which is the least bad alternative. It is better by far to present good alternatives, such as "C. He can do something else that he does enjoy to unlock that thing."

 

>But I know for sure that most of the humans are rational individuals and if they mean they can't achieve something in a game they just leave it out because...yeah, it's a game. That doesn't mean they leave the game they just don't see so much value in a single skin which isn't giving any advantage at all. The ones acting irrational are kids or people with severe difficulties irl.

 

It's not about "will players quit if we don't do this," it's about "will players be *happy* if we don't do this." It's not about meeting the bare minimum standard that will prevent people quitting, it's about making as many players as happy as *possible.*

 

>See above, it's a skin. One of thousands. If you want to have it, play the content otherwise you won't miss anything but the skin which doesn't prevent you from playing all the stuff in the game.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if a player wants a reward, but hates the method for acquiring it, then only two possible outcomes exist, A. He does the thing anyway, and does not enjoy his time playing the game, or B. He never gets the thing he wants. Neither of these outcomes is a positive one, at best it's weighing which is the least bad alternative. It is better by far to present good alternatives, such as "C. He can do something else that he does enjoy to unlock that thing."

 

>You need your mouse, 2 buttons (run forward, mostly "w" and jump, mostly "space") of the keyboard and reaction to the Clock tower. Even on Mursaat Overseer, the easiest boss you won't be able to beat him with "w", a 2nd button, the mouse and the reaction to the boss.

 

So? It's not about how many inputs are required, it's about how you use them. Timing and aim are also important factors in skill contests.

 

>Yes, they are better and most of them are superior because they have invested way more insight into classes and into specs.

 

Nope. That's just how they choose to play the game, that does not make them *better.*

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

>Well the better wat to word it is saying the rewards schould Balance out the path of least resistance.

 

And I agree on that, more complicated and time-consuming content should offer *more* loot than quick or simple content, so that they are worth doing, I just disagree that they should offer a higher quality* of loot that could never be earned by piling up other content. At some point, X amount of content A must always add up to Y amount of content B.

 

>But having unique things deep info a mode is also important. Look at the prizes of the automated tournament. The Gizmo you can acquire are only available There. This is important.

 

No. If you want those, and you like PvP, then PvP should be the fastest and easiest way to get them. If you really dislike PvP, then you should never have to do a ton of PvP just to get them. Basically, if players are **ever** spending large amounts of time doing content that they do not enjoy, then a developer screwed something up massively.