Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[nia.4725]

Legendary armor is currently gifted to people who enjoy raiding, for no other reason than because ANet decided to gift it to those who enjoy raiding. Those players are not entitled to having Legendary armor, much less to having exclusive rights to it. If ANet decides that others should also have access, then so it shall be, and my position is that they should so decide.

 

-

Gifted? You have to be kidding me.

 

You get gifted only the first prelegendary. But it's not really gifted, since you have to beat W1-W2-W3-W4 bosses in order to get it, and you have to also do some events in open world PvE.

 

After that? It's like any other legendary. Grind a lot of materials, spend a lot of gold and burn 150 Legendary Insights. Anet does not gift you anything.

 

You're here talking all the time like you can't raid. Like it's an indestructible wall, like something is preventing you from raid. And that's a complete lie. You could raid anytime. You just have to pick a toon, gear it with exotics, read a guide of the boss to know what it does and learn the basics of your class so you can do your job. Ex I'm going to play druid, so I'm going to get informed and know that I have to heal and buff my squad.

 

Wow, so difficult! Let's ask anet to cheese it for me instead. Because it is so difficult. A real wall. I will never be able to raid in its current state.

[Deeyra.1476]

Here are some point most people like to talk about:

1. Exclusive skins should be acessibe to everyone.

 

Why exactly? How can a pve player like me get the wvw skins without playing the content? Raids are fun and easy as long as you realise that some people are more experienced and it would be worth to listen to their advice. After that its just improving. If you thing getting easy rewards with green gear i feel sorry for you and arena net should not reward brainless behaviour in content that was designed to be "hard". (I dont mind new people that try to improve but i despise leechers)

 

2. WoW raid designs are better and anet should make them like that.

 

Lol wut? There are still rewards only aviable in mythical difficulty and as my friend described, "people in lower difficulties have an average of 2 brain cells".

 

3. Easier difficulty would be good training.

 

I said it multiple times. You cant train in an easier difficulty and then expect the same result in normal mode. "Greens damaging you less". That kinda ruins the point of the green because you could just overheal it. Without the punishment there no need to learn mehanics.

#triggered again

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> Gifted? You have to be kidding me.

 

Yes. ANet made Legendary armor. This cost them a significant amount of manhours, paid for by all the players in the game. They *chose* to link acquisition of this armor to participation in raids, which was a gift to the raiding community. They could as easily have *chosen* to attach the armor to map completion, open world quest chains, or hunting moas in Queensdale. Raiders did nothing to *earn* access to Legendary armor, all they are doing is playing the game how they enjoy playing it, same as everyone else. Even *you* said "I raid because I like it and because I like to raid with my friends. Shinies are cool because I make an effort to play good, so it gets rewarded accordingly. But they are not the reason. I clear everything on mondays but my static raids tuesday/wed/thursday so these days I only get bags of greens. The majority of raidebrs raid for fun. I am not even interested in the legen armor."

 

>You're here talking all the time like you can't raid. Like it's an indestructible wall, like something is preventing you from raid. And that's a complete lie. You could raid anytime.

 

I could, but I wouldn't enjoy it in its current form, and doing something in a game that you don't enjoy is the worst way to waste time. I'm looking for a way of working towards the goal that I *would* enjoy.

 

> @"Deeyra.1476" said:

> Here are some point most people like to talk about:

> 1. Exclusive skins should be acessibe to everyone.

>

> Why exactly? How can a pve player like me get the wvw skins without playing the content? Raids are fun and easy as long as you realise that some people are more experienced and it would be worth to listen to their advice. After that its just improving. If you thing getting easy rewards with green gear i feel sorry for you and arena net should not reward brainless behaviour in content that was designed to be "hard". (I dont mind new people that try to improve but i despise leechers)

 

Why? Because they'd like to. If a player looks at a skin and like the way it looks, he should have a reasonable path toward acquiring it. If you enoy raids, that's **awesome,** we're *all* happy for you that you've found something you love, but understand that not everyone feels the same way, there are plenty of people who could *never* love raids the way you love raids, and that shouldn't prevent them from getting an armor skin that they like. And if you want WvW skins without playing the content, make a suggestion to ANet. I don't think those should be off limits either. You should have to work for it, but there should be a path towards it that you actually enjoy.

 

> 3. Easier difficulty would be good training.

>

> I said it multiple times. You cant train in an easier difficulty and then expect the same result in normal mode. "Greens damaging you less". That kinda ruins the point of the green because you could just overheal it. Without the punishment there no need to learn mehanics.

> #triggered again

 

Again, the point is not that you would *have* to train, the point is that you *could.* Yes, if the green didn't kill you then you could choose to overheal it, but so long as the mechanics and timing of it were the same, then even if you *could* tank through it, if the party you were in *chose* to attempt it anyway, then they could practice that mechanic, without the cost of failure. Again, if players *choose* to take on the encounter in a way that would apply little to no training value, in a way that uses techniques that would never work in the normal mode, *this is fine.* So long as they are enjoying the experience they *are* having, it's working as intended. But if they *choose* to go in with the expectation that it is for training, and ever time they fail a green circle they feel bad about that and try to do better the next time, then that *is* serviing a training function, and that's fine too. Both are good.

[nia.4725]

In the end what you want is a way to get every shiny you like playing whatever you choose to play. But that isn't fair nor healthy for the game. If I can get every skin I like just playing PvE, what's the point of playing other things? Game modes would have less and less active people and the feel of achievement, and the rewards for good playing and effort would completely disappear. Players must be rewarded for their efforts, or else they will never make an effort. A game full of casuals is a valid strategy, but it's not the only one out there and I don't think anet wants that, even though GW2 is very casual oriented. How the skins and rewards are given is determined by some things, and I'm sure that if they chose to tie it to raids it's because they want to tie it to raids as raiders are a target type of player they wanted to reward. As an aspiring game designer, I wouldn't give the biggest shiny to that player who just logs in from time to time and autoattacks. I will give that player some good shinies, but I will reward accordingly that other player who plays my game daily and actually spends time trying to learn and improve at it. Because yeah, casuals help sustain my game, but not-so-casual players help a lot, too. They are the loyal players who will keep buying my product, using it and making possible for me to produce more content.

 

You can't design a game where you can obtain everything by doing whatever thing you want to do.

 

Edit | An example of this.

 

I really like the ascended pvp medium chest skin. I want it for my druid, therefore I play pvp. If anet gave me a way of getting that skin without playing PvP, let's say, doing raids since it's the think I like the most, I wouldn't bother coming back to PvP.

 

That would make 1 less person in the already tiny PvP playerbase.

 

But I'm not the only one. More people could feel the same as me. Let's say, a WvW player who likes PvP skins could go back to WvW and get those PvP skins. That would make 2 less person in PvP.

 

And on and on and on.

 

Eventually, PvP would only have PvP-main players. The playerbase would be so little that the game mode would be very unplayable. And it wouldn't be worth it to continue developing that game mode.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> In the end what you want is a way to get every shiny you like playing whatever you choose to play.

 

Yes, at least in so far as it's reasonably achievable to do so.

 

>But that isn't fair nor healthy for the game.

 

It is both.

 

>If I can get every skin I like just playing PvE, what's the point of playing other things?

 

Because you would enjoy those other things, and have fun playing them.

 

If that isn't true, if you don't enjoy those things and would not have fun playing them, then it would be better for everyone that you *not* play those other modes.

 

>Game modes would have less and less active people and the feel of achievement, and the rewards for good playing and effort would completely disappear.

 

Players can only do one thing at a time. If you're spending time in a raid then you aren't spending time in PvP, so the total number of "players doing things" remains the same either way. If there are modes that *nobody* would do if not bribed into doing them, WvW, for example, then there's just no reason to continue supporting that mode in the first place. Let players play the modes that they enjoy, and reward them for doing so.

 

>How the skins and rewards are given is determined by some things, and I'm sure that if they chose to tie it to raids it's because they want to tie it to raids as raiders are a target type of player they wanted to reward.

 

Yeah, that's probably true, but that doesn't mean that they were *right* to do so, nor that they would be *wrong* for *changing* their minds on that.

 

>As an aspiring game designer, I wouldn't give the biggest shiny to that player who just logs in from time to time and autoattacks. I will give that player some good shinies, but I will reward accordingly that other player who plays my game daily and actually spends time trying to learn and improve at it.

 

And you can do that, but if the game you make happens to attract a massive population of casual players for some reason, you'd be a fool to stick to your guns and reward only the more hardcore players. Epic set out to make a co-op zombie-fighting tower defense game called Fortnite. It wasn't doing so great so they added a battle royale mode. That did *amazing,* and so now they have a very popular game on their hands, but what if they'd decided "no, we wanted a zombie tower defense game for tower defense fans, let's give *them* all the best stuff?" That wouldn't be a successful long term strategy.

 

Whether ANet intended it or not, whether they like it or not, what they've got is a game that is very successful among casual players. It is an insult to think that they would not value that audience, the one responsible for *any* profits they've made.

 

Now that philosophical argument aside, we aren't talking about players who "just log in" or whatever. This would still require commitment, it would still require players to actually engage the content. It would be easier than raids, but it would still be harder that a lot of other tasks in the game, and gameplay *would* be required.

 

>I really like the ascended pvp medium chest skin. I want it for my druid, therefore I play pvp. If anet gave me a way of getting that skin without playing PvP, let's say, doing raids since it's the think I like the most, I wouldn't bother coming back to PvP.

 

And you shouldn't, if you don't enjoy it. I earned the Ascension via PvP. I hated ever minute of it, it made me enjoy the game less to a degree that still impacts me today. I haven't gone back in since. That should not be considered a "win for good reward management design."

 

>That would make 1 less person in the already tiny PvP playerbase.

 

And if the PvP playerbase shrinks to the point that it's unsustainable, then it should be rolled up. Players should not be PvPing that don't LOVE PvP.

 

>But I'm not the only one. More people could feel the same as me. Let's say, a WvW player who likes PvP skins could go back to WvW and get those PvP skins. That would make 2 less person in PvP.

 

But it would also mean one *more* player in WvW during those periods of time, which would help that also-struggling mode.

 

>Eventually, PvP would only have PvP-main players. The playerbase would be so little that the game mode would be very unplayable. And it wouldn't be worth it to continue developing that game mode.

 

then they shouldn't keep developing it. No mode should exist only because players are kept their against their will.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > >No, gear grind or gear threadmill is the hunt for statistical better equipment that gets released in cycles so the hunt never ends.

> > >

> > > That can be a part of it, and often is, but is not necessary to the definition. if the players are motivated to unlock stats, then stats are the motivation for gear grind. If players are motivated to unlock skins, then skins are the motivation for gear grind. GW2 has cultivated a motivation to unlock skins, therefore, the gear grind in GW2 raids is about skins, not stats, but exists nontheless.

> >

> > No you can't redefine things just to fit your arguments. Gear grind is about stats, not skins and does not exist in GW2.

>

> Gear grind is grinding for gear. The motivations for doing so are irrelevant to the definition.

Exactly. And skins are not equipment aka gear. You are wrong.

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >To complete your picture the guy with 10 bricks per load also has smaller bricks that only weight around half. So he gets the same for less.

>

> Nope.

>

> >Otherwise it would be the current raids with less rewards.

>

> Again, it's an analogy. The second man is carrying 10 bricks at a time instead of 50, which makes his workload each time much less cumbersome. In the end though, he still accomplishes the same amount of work, he carries the 1000 bricks to the destination. Similarly, a player might need to complete easy mode raids more often than the hard mode ones to reach the Envoy armor, but he *should* be able to reach the Envoy armor eventually by substituting reps for weight.

>

 

Yes and your analogy is wrong. Easy mode is not the same as normal mode so the bricks have less weight than normal bricks. You want to transfer lighter things over a longer period of time for the same rewards.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> Exactly. And skins are not equipment aka gear. You are wrong.

 

They are a part of the gear, the skin part.

 

>Yes and your analogy is wrong. Easy mode is not the same as normal mode so the bricks have less weight than normal bricks.

 

No, you're just missing the analogy, the "easier" portion is the carrying 10 of them each time rather than 50. That's what makes it easier, because the weight is less. Why do you believe they should also have to be smaller bricks? Where would he even find smaller bricks? This is just getting silly now.

 

>You want to transfer lighter things over a longer period of time for the same rewards.

 

Yes, that's the point. Same total effort, just spread out rather than concentrated.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > The difference between you and I.. is that I want people to enjoy the content with me.. You want to have content that others can't do.

> > > > I haven't really stated much of an opinion. But shoehorn me in one because you need a wall of text to explain a false argument.

> > > >

> > > > While you seem to suggest that because content isn't for everyone your "funding" goes into content you don't enjoy then I dunno what to tell you. There will always be part of that funding going into content ideas you don't enjoy.

> > >

> > > I never said anything about enjoying it.. I said it was designed to stonewall me. There is a massive difference between those two.

> > >

> > > I may not like doing Map Hearts, but they are designed to be very accessible to me.

> > >

> > > I may love the idea of large instance based content where myself and 9 other friends do it.. but Raids are designed to be very inaccessible to me.

> > >

> > > Comprehend the Difference.. this has nothing to do with "Enjoy" or "Like" and everything to do with bad design.

> >

> > Which is still your opinion. The point isnt about the distinction between you thinking its bad design and you not liking the design.

> >

> > I dont doubt that on personal level that's a huge difference to you btw.

>

> Lets define bad Design.

>

> When a decade ago WoW, already did the multi-year long trial and error mistakes of discovering that making one difficulty level to Raids was in fact not good design, and that players on a massive scale, in the millions, enjoyed raids far more if they had difficulty tiers, knowing this, and after hiring a team to do nothing but make raids, your company, opts to make raids with a single difficulty setting.

>

> At this point in game development, that is about as bad as you can get.. with **bad design**

>

> and that is not just a matter of my opinion. Not learning from the mistakes of others.. is just a bad way to do anything.

 

All I see you say is that WoW did it this way therefore everything different (or at least different in GW2) is bad design.

 

If anything, the problem people have with raids isn't that they are badly designed, but rather that the raids aren't designed for them. I see the game like a themepark. Where not all attractions are actually enjoyable by everyone, and not designed for everyone. What a themepark does is not adjust each individual attraction so that everyone can enjoy it, but rather provide multiple attractions. The idea building on that goes much more into detail, but this thread of sludge is not the right place at all for sharing interesting ideas as it's more about taking those ideas apart and criticizing just to further people's personal agenda. Which is probably also why no developers respond to it much.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> If anything, the problem people have with raids isn't that they are badly designed, but rather that the raids aren't designed for them. I see the game like a themepark. Where not all attractions are actually enjoyable by everyone, and not designed for everyone. What a themepark does is not adjust each individual attraction so that everyone can enjoy it, but rather provide multiple attractions.

 

A fair point. So which other "attraction" in GW2 would you suggest for earning Envoy armor?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Deeyra.1476" said:

> Here are some point most people like to talk about:

> 1. Exclusive skins should be acessibe to everyone.

>

> Why exactly?

 

It's obvious why.

"The exclusive skins should be accessible to everyone because I want them and I cannot be bothered to do what is required of me to get them".

 

There. Entirely reasonable, solid and mature stance, wouldn't you agree?

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > If anything, the problem people have with raids isn't that they are badly designed, but rather that the raids aren't designed for them. I see the game like a themepark. Where not all attractions are actually enjoyable by everyone, and not designed for everyone. What a themepark does is not adjust each individual attraction so that everyone can enjoy it, but rather provide multiple attractions.

>

> A fair point. So which other "attraction" in GW2 would you suggest for earning Envoy armor?

 

None!

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > If anything, the problem people have with raids isn't that they are badly designed, but rather that the raids aren't designed for them. I see the game like a themepark. Where not all attractions are actually enjoyable by everyone, and not designed for everyone. What a themepark does is not adjust each individual attraction so that everyone can enjoy it, but rather provide multiple attractions.

> >

> > A fair point. So which other "attraction" in GW2 would you suggest for earning Envoy armor?

>

> None!

 

Well then the analogy fails to work. You can't say "raids are for people who like to raid, and that's ok because people who don't like raids can do something else" *and at the same time* try to argue "but there are things that are locked behind raids and people who don't raid can't have them."

 

It's one or the other, I'm afraid.

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > If anything, the problem people have with raids isn't that they are badly designed, but rather that the raids aren't designed for them. I see the game like a themepark. Where not all attractions are actually enjoyable by everyone, and not designed for everyone. What a themepark does is not adjust each individual attraction so that everyone can enjoy it, but rather provide multiple attractions.

> > >

> > > A fair point. So which other "attraction" in GW2 would you suggest for earning Envoy armor?

> >

> > None!

>

> Well then the analogy fails to work. You can't say "raids are for people who like to raid, and that's ok because people who don't like raids can do something else" *and at the same time* try to argue "but there are things that are locked behind raids and people who don't raid can't have them."

>

> It's one or the other, I'm afraid.

 

No. You don't have to have the right to get EVERYTHING in this game. That's the problem -you think anet has to give you everything you want, in the way that you want it. But nope.

 

Everything in this game is obtainable in some way -if you don't want to go the way required to obtain it it's YOUR problem, not arenanet's. Arenanet has already established a way for everyone to get everything. If you like it or not it's always your problem.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > If anything, the problem people have with raids isn't that they are badly designed, but rather that the raids aren't designed for them. I see the game like a themepark. Where not all attractions are actually enjoyable by everyone, and not designed for everyone. What a themepark does is not adjust each individual attraction so that everyone can enjoy it, but rather provide multiple attractions.

> > >

> > > A fair point. So which other "attraction" in GW2 would you suggest for earning Envoy armor?

> >

> > None!

>

> Well then the analogy fails to work. You can't say "raids are for people who like to raid, and that's ok because people who don't like raids can do something else" *and at the same time* try to argue "but there are things that are locked behind raids and people who don't raid can't have them."

>

> It's one or the other, I'm afraid.

 

Oh really? So if I want a nice company car with all its fuel paid I don't have to apply for a specific job that offers one, I could simply walk to my boss and demand one, on the sole basis that somewhere somebody offers it? Tell you what. You convince my boss to give me a Lambo on these terms and I'll convince ANet to make it possible to earn everything by not playing the intended content. :lol:

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> No. You don't have to have the right to get EVERYTHING in this game. That's the problem -you think anet has to give you everything you want, in the way that you want it. But nope.

>

> Everything in this game is obtainable in some way -if you don't want to go the way required to obtain it it's YOUR problem, not arenanet's. Arenanet has already established a way for everyone to get everything. If you like it or not it's always your problem.

 

That's still incompatible with the "I see the game like a themepark." analogy though. You don't have to ride the roller coaster to get the t-shirt. There's nothing "gated" at a theme park, you never *have* to ride any particular ride to get anything *other* than the experience of having been on that ride.

 

You can argue that the game *shouldn't* be viewed as a theme park, but you can't say that it is, *and* that rewards should be exclusive to certain "rides."

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>Oh really? So if I want a nice company car with all its fuel paid I don't have to apply for a specific job that offers one, I could simply walk to my boss and demand one, on the sole basis that somewhere somebody offers it?

 

No. That has absolutely nothing to do with the example being discussed.

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > No. You don't have to have the right to get EVERYTHING in this game. That's the problem -you think anet has to give you everything you want, in the way that you want it. But nope.

> >

> > Everything in this game is obtainable in some way -if you don't want to go the way required to obtain it it's YOUR problem, not arenanet's. Arenanet has already established a way for everyone to get everything. If you like it or not it's always your problem.

>

> That's still incompatible with the "I see the game like a themepark." analogy though. You don't have to ride the roller coaster to get the t-shirt. There's nothing "gated" at a theme park, you never *have* to ride any particular ride to get anything *other* than the experience of having been on that ride.

>

> You can argue that the game *shouldn't* be viewed as a theme park, but you can't say that it is, *and* that rewards should be exclusive to certain "rides."

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >Oh really? So if I want a nice company car with all its fuel paid I don't have to apply for a specific job that offers one, I could simply walk to my boss and demand one, on the sole basis that somewhere somebody offers it?

>

> No. That has absolutely nothing to do with the example being discussed.

 

Hey friend, I'm not the one who said the themepark thing. I never said anything about it. You are confusing people. XD

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > If anything, the problem people have with raids isn't that they are badly designed, but rather that the raids aren't designed for them. I see the game like a themepark. Where not all attractions are actually enjoyable by everyone, and not designed for everyone. What a themepark does is not adjust each individual attraction so that everyone can enjoy it, but rather provide multiple attractions.

>

> A fair point. So which other "attraction" in GW2 would you suggest for earning Envoy armor?

 

None. In themepark you dont get stuffed bear for taking a ride on "i dont know how it is called in english - a circular shape that rotates and you sit in it" bur instead you have to buy them or win them by shoting.

Bith ootions are there for envoy armor. Do raids or pay for them

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Also what kind if easy are we talking about?

Do you mean that everyone can clear it with any composition (and non meta builds) on first try?

 

If so i guess you would get legendary armor after more then a year of playing.

Are you ok with that?

 

I feel like players that want easy mode will not have this kind of dedication

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >Oh really? So if I want a nice company car with all its fuel paid I don't have to apply for a specific job that offers one, I could simply walk to my boss and demand one, on the sole basis that somewhere somebody offers it?

>

> No. That has absolutely nothing to do with the example being discussed.

 

Except it is exactly the same. There are set rules for acquiring stuff. You want stuff, you don't like rules, so you want the rules changed. Some ego you have, I'll give you that.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > >I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

> >

> > Nobody's asking for anything for doing nothing. Every proposal involving easy mode involves doing as much work as hard mode, just in an easier mode. It would be earning things, just at a lighter pace.

> >

> > Man hires you to do a job, "I want you to carry 1000 bricks from here to there, and I'll pay you $100 to do it."

> >

> > You decide that it would be best to do a little working out, until you can carry 50 bricks in a load. You go up, pick up 50 bricks, carry them, repeat this process 20 times, and the job's done, here's your $100.

> >

> > Another guy gets hired to do the same job. He figures he can already carry 10 bricks at a time, and doubts he's willing or able to build himself up to the point that he can carry 50. So he just carries 10 at a time. He does get stronger as he does this, by the last load he might even be strong enough to carry 50 at a time, but 10 is much more comfortable for him and he's fine with that. So 100 loads later, he's managed to carry over the same 1000 bricks as the other guy, he gets his $100 too.

> >

> > You come over and start whining about how the second guy "didn't do any work at all" because he was only carrying 1/5th the load as he was. Boss just shrugs, the stack of 1000 bricks got where it was going, the work got done, the man earned his salary.

>

> You are the one who literally said that you expect to be able to play the guitar as soon as you pick it up. You have literally said that you expect to be able to clear the raid as soon as you get to it just by dodging red circles. That is doing nothing. But still you expect to get the same shinies as me, just by dodging red circles, when I dodge those, go to green ones, give my squad the buffs they need, heal them when they need it, keep red orbs away from them. That is absolutely unfair. A person who actually tries to play can't get the same as someone lazy who just wants to autoattack.

>

> I really really like tribulation mode skins. However, those skins are meant to people who try and succeed in tribulation mode. I'm literally crap at SAB and I don't even like it, so I won't ever get those skins. And it's completely fair. Because those skins are for those who persevere enough to get them. They earn it, if I get those skins in baby mode I'm not earning anything. Trib mode is how it is and I accept the fact that, if I want those skins, I have to do an effort to get them. It would be unfair for me to go crying to anet asking them to cheese trib mode so that lazy SAB players like me get the shiny those people who are persevering get.

>

> I really like the luminiscent carapace armor but I don't like open world PvE and I don't like the things required to get it, so I don't get it. And I accept the fact that if I want it I have to do what is required to get it even if I don't like it. I don't go crying to anet asking to change the way those skins are get.

>

> I really like the ascended WvW armor but I'm rank 163 and I don't like WvW enough to reach rank 2k. It's a very high rank meant to those who actually play the game mode regularly, not for WvW casuals like me. I accept the fact that if I want that armor I have to play WvW and earn it, just as everyone else.

>

> And 2490248204920 more examples.

>

> This is the same.

>

> As I said I could understand an easy mode with little rewards meant for lazy people, people who don't have the time to learn real raids, whatever.

 

Woah now. So people who don’t have much time for the game or raiding are lazy?

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > >I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

> > >

> > > Nobody's asking for anything for doing nothing. Every proposal involving easy mode involves doing as much work as hard mode, just in an easier mode. It would be earning things, just at a lighter pace.

> > >

> > > Man hires you to do a job, "I want you to carry 1000 bricks from here to there, and I'll pay you $100 to do it."

> > >

> > > You decide that it would be best to do a little working out, until you can carry 50 bricks in a load. You go up, pick up 50 bricks, carry them, repeat this process 20 times, and the job's done, here's your $100.

> > >

> > > Another guy gets hired to do the same job. He figures he can already carry 10 bricks at a time, and doubts he's willing or able to build himself up to the point that he can carry 50. So he just carries 10 at a time. He does get stronger as he does this, by the last load he might even be strong enough to carry 50 at a time, but 10 is much more comfortable for him and he's fine with that. So 100 loads later, he's managed to carry over the same 1000 bricks as the other guy, he gets his $100 too.

> > >

> > > You come over and start whining about how the second guy "didn't do any work at all" because he was only carrying 1/5th the load as he was. Boss just shrugs, the stack of 1000 bricks got where it was going, the work got done, the man earned his salary.

> >

> > You are the one who literally said that you expect to be able to play the guitar as soon as you pick it up. You have literally said that you expect to be able to clear the raid as soon as you get to it just by dodging red circles. That is doing nothing. But still you expect to get the same shinies as me, just by dodging red circles, when I dodge those, go to green ones, give my squad the buffs they need, heal them when they need it, keep red orbs away from them. That is absolutely unfair. A person who actually tries to play can't get the same as someone lazy who just wants to autoattack.

> >

> > I really really like tribulation mode skins. However, those skins are meant to people who try and succeed in tribulation mode. I'm literally crap at SAB and I don't even like it, so I won't ever get those skins. And it's completely fair. Because those skins are for those who persevere enough to get them. They earn it, if I get those skins in baby mode I'm not earning anything. Trib mode is how it is and I accept the fact that, if I want those skins, I have to do an effort to get them. It would be unfair for me to go crying to anet asking them to cheese trib mode so that lazy SAB players like me get the shiny those people who are persevering get.

> >

> > I really like the luminiscent carapace armor but I don't like open world PvE and I don't like the things required to get it, so I don't get it. And I accept the fact that if I want it I have to do what is required to get it even if I don't like it. I don't go crying to anet asking to change the way those skins are get.

> >

> > I really like the ascended WvW armor but I'm rank 163 and I don't like WvW enough to reach rank 2k. It's a very high rank meant to those who actually play the game mode regularly, not for WvW casuals like me. I accept the fact that if I want that armor I have to play WvW and earn it, just as everyone else.

> >

> > And 2490248204920 more examples.

> >

> > This is the same.

> >

> > As I said I could understand an easy mode with little rewards meant for lazy people, people who don't have the time to learn real raids, whatever.

>

> Woah now. So people who don’t have much time for the game or raiding are lazy?

>

>

 

This would sound a lot more convincing if these same people weren't spending so much time complaining in the forums.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > The difference between you and I.. is that I want people to enjoy the content with me.. You want to have content that others can't do.

> > > > > I haven't really stated much of an opinion. But shoehorn me in one because you need a wall of text to explain a false argument.

> > > > >

> > > > > While you seem to suggest that because content isn't for everyone your "funding" goes into content you don't enjoy then I dunno what to tell you. There will always be part of that funding going into content ideas you don't enjoy.

> > > >

> > > > I never said anything about enjoying it.. I said it was designed to stonewall me. There is a massive difference between those two.

> > > >

> > > > I may not like doing Map Hearts, but they are designed to be very accessible to me.

> > > >

> > > > I may love the idea of large instance based content where myself and 9 other friends do it.. but Raids are designed to be very inaccessible to me.

> > > >

> > > > Comprehend the Difference.. this has nothing to do with "Enjoy" or "Like" and everything to do with bad design.

> > >

> > > Which is still your opinion. The point isnt about the distinction between you thinking its bad design and you not liking the design.

> > >

> > > I dont doubt that on personal level that's a huge difference to you btw.

> >

> > Lets define bad Design.

> >

> > When a decade ago WoW, already did the multi-year long trial and error mistakes of discovering that making one difficulty level to Raids was in fact not good design, and that players on a massive scale, in the millions, enjoyed raids far more if they had difficulty tiers, knowing this, and after hiring a team to do nothing but make raids, your company, opts to make raids with a single difficulty setting.

> >

> > At this point in game development, that is about as bad as you can get.. with **bad design**

> >

> > and that is not just a matter of my opinion. Not learning from the mistakes of others.. is just a bad way to do anything.

>

> All I see you say is that WoW did it this way therefore everything different (or at least different in GW2) is bad design.

>

> If anything, the problem people have with raids isn't that they are badly designed, but rather that the raids aren't designed for them. I see the game like a themepark. Where not all attractions are actually enjoyable by everyone, and not designed for everyone. What a themepark does is not adjust each individual attraction so that everyone can enjoy it, but rather provide multiple attractions. The idea building on that goes much more into detail, but this thread of sludge is not the right place at all for sharing interesting ideas as it's more about taking those ideas apart and criticizing just to further people's personal agenda. Which is probably also why no developers respond to it much.

 

Well at this point, it seems you are being deliberately obtuse, but, in case this is legit.. let me try to simplify it.

 

If WoW already _tried it_ that way.. and it was a _catastrophic fail_.. anyone with half a clue, would have learned from that mistake, or at least _tried to_.

 

See Humans ability to learn and improve from the _mistakes of others_, is why we have electricity, computers, games to play, and why we not a bunch of cave dwelling people that need to re-invent the wheel every decade because they are refuse to learn from others before them.

 

Which is why elitist and those against the idea of difficulty settings.. well.. don't look like the informed ones in this discussion.

[nia.4725]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > >I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

> > > >

> > > > Nobody's asking for anything for doing nothing. Every proposal involving easy mode involves doing as much work as hard mode, just in an easier mode. It would be earning things, just at a lighter pace.

> > > >

> > > > Man hires you to do a job, "I want you to carry 1000 bricks from here to there, and I'll pay you $100 to do it."

> > > >

> > > > You decide that it would be best to do a little working out, until you can carry 50 bricks in a load. You go up, pick up 50 bricks, carry them, repeat this process 20 times, and the job's done, here's your $100.

> > > >

> > > > Another guy gets hired to do the same job. He figures he can already carry 10 bricks at a time, and doubts he's willing or able to build himself up to the point that he can carry 50. So he just carries 10 at a time. He does get stronger as he does this, by the last load he might even be strong enough to carry 50 at a time, but 10 is much more comfortable for him and he's fine with that. So 100 loads later, he's managed to carry over the same 1000 bricks as the other guy, he gets his $100 too.

> > > >

> > > > You come over and start whining about how the second guy "didn't do any work at all" because he was only carrying 1/5th the load as he was. Boss just shrugs, the stack of 1000 bricks got where it was going, the work got done, the man earned his salary.

> > >

> > > You are the one who literally said that you expect to be able to play the guitar as soon as you pick it up. You have literally said that you expect to be able to clear the raid as soon as you get to it just by dodging red circles. That is doing nothing. But still you expect to get the same shinies as me, just by dodging red circles, when I dodge those, go to green ones, give my squad the buffs they need, heal them when they need it, keep red orbs away from them. That is absolutely unfair. A person who actually tries to play can't get the same as someone lazy who just wants to autoattack.

> > >

> > > I really really like tribulation mode skins. However, those skins are meant to people who try and succeed in tribulation mode. I'm literally crap at SAB and I don't even like it, so I won't ever get those skins. And it's completely fair. Because those skins are for those who persevere enough to get them. They earn it, if I get those skins in baby mode I'm not earning anything. Trib mode is how it is and I accept the fact that, if I want those skins, I have to do an effort to get them. It would be unfair for me to go crying to anet asking them to cheese trib mode so that lazy SAB players like me get the shiny those people who are persevering get.

> > >

> > > I really like the luminiscent carapace armor but I don't like open world PvE and I don't like the things required to get it, so I don't get it. And I accept the fact that if I want it I have to do what is required to get it even if I don't like it. I don't go crying to anet asking to change the way those skins are get.

> > >

> > > I really like the ascended WvW armor but I'm rank 163 and I don't like WvW enough to reach rank 2k. It's a very high rank meant to those who actually play the game mode regularly, not for WvW casuals like me. I accept the fact that if I want that armor I have to play WvW and earn it, just as everyone else.

> > >

> > > And 2490248204920 more examples.

> > >

> > > This is the same.

> > >

> > > As I said I could understand an easy mode with little rewards meant for lazy people, people who don't have the time to learn real raids, whatever.

> >

> > Woah now. So people who don’t have much time for the game or raiding are lazy?

> >

> >

>

> This would sound a lot more convincing if these same people weren't spending so much time complaining in the forums.

 

No. The lazy ones are the ones like Ohoni, who complain that they can't get the biggest shiny and want to get it literally by playing the guitar as soon as they pick it up. Read above. That person wants to get the same as me just by dodging red circles. Those are lazy.

 

If you actually read all my posts you'll see that I literally say that I could understand an easy mode for lazy people OR people who don't have time to raid. But always with less rewards.

 

edit: sorry wrong quote xD

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >Oh really? So if I want a nice company car with all its fuel paid I don't have to apply for a specific job that offers one, I could simply walk to my boss and demand one, on the sole basis that somewhere somebody offers it?

> >

> > No. That has absolutely nothing to do with the example being discussed.

>

> Except it is exactly the same. There are set rules for acquiring stuff. You want stuff, you don't like rules, so you want the rules changed. Some ego you have, I'll give you that.

 

And you are not doing the same?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > >I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

> > >

> > > Nobody's asking for anything for doing nothing. Every proposal involving easy mode involves doing as much work as hard mode, just in an easier mode. It would be earning things, just at a lighter pace.

> > >

> > > Man hires you to do a job, "I want you to carry 1000 bricks from here to there, and I'll pay you $100 to do it."

> > >

> > > You decide that it would be best to do a little working out, until you can carry 50 bricks in a load. You go up, pick up 50 bricks, carry them, repeat this process 20 times, and the job's done, here's your $100.

> > >

> > > Another guy gets hired to do the same job. He figures he can already carry 10 bricks at a time, and doubts he's willing or able to build himself up to the point that he can carry 50. So he just carries 10 at a time. He does get stronger as he does this, by the last load he might even be strong enough to carry 50 at a time, but 10 is much more comfortable for him and he's fine with that. So 100 loads later, he's managed to carry over the same 1000 bricks as the other guy, he gets his $100 too.

> > >

> > > You come over and start whining about how the second guy "didn't do any work at all" because he was only carrying 1/5th the load as he was. Boss just shrugs, the stack of 1000 bricks got where it was going, the work got done, the man earned his salary.

> >

> > You are the one who literally said that you expect to be able to play the guitar as soon as you pick it up. You have literally said that you expect to be able to clear the raid as soon as you get to it just by dodging red circles. That is doing nothing. But still you expect to get the same shinies as me, just by dodging red circles, when I dodge those, go to green ones, give my squad the buffs they need, heal them when they need it, keep red orbs away from them. That is absolutely unfair. A person who actually tries to play can't get the same as someone lazy who just wants to autoattack.

> >

> > I really really like tribulation mode skins. However, those skins are meant to people who try and succeed in tribulation mode. I'm literally crap at SAB and I don't even like it, so I won't ever get those skins. And it's completely fair. Because those skins are for those who persevere enough to get them. They earn it, if I get those skins in baby mode I'm not earning anything. Trib mode is how it is and I accept the fact that, if I want those skins, I have to do an effort to get them. It would be unfair for me to go crying to anet asking them to cheese trib mode so that lazy SAB players like me get the shiny those people who are persevering get.

> >

> > I really like the luminiscent carapace armor but I don't like open world PvE and I don't like the things required to get it, so I don't get it. And I accept the fact that if I want it I have to do what is required to get it even if I don't like it. I don't go crying to anet asking to change the way those skins are get.

> >

> > I really like the ascended WvW armor but I'm rank 163 and I don't like WvW enough to reach rank 2k. It's a very high rank meant to those who actually play the game mode regularly, not for WvW casuals like me. I accept the fact that if I want that armor I have to play WvW and earn it, just as everyone else.

> >

> > And 2490248204920 more examples.

> >

> > This is the same.

> >

> > As I said I could understand an easy mode with little rewards meant for lazy people, people who don't have the time to learn real raids, whatever.

>

> Woah now. So people who don’t have much time for the game or raiding are lazy?

>

>

 

Yup.. it seems if you are not willing to devote yourself to doing raids, and making them the priority in your life to memorize the scripted moves and rotations of your fixed role class, you're some lazy unskilled scrub who should go off to PvP and WvW facing other players in brutal dynamic combat for your gear.

 

Umm Hummm..

 

That is the logic you are dealing with here.