Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[nia.4725]

One-shotting bosses means that you kill it first try.

 

Raid language. When we say "we one-shot Matthias" means we killed Matthias on the first try. You want to oneshot baby mode raids without needing to learn the raid.

 

Funny thing, I oneshot many of my first raid boss kills. I killed Matthias on the first try on my first Matthias ever. Same with Sabetha, I even got the Eternal title in that first try ever. But raids are so difficult that they require to wipe and wipe and wipe until you get the kill :v

[Sykper.6583]

Even open world bosses can get messy with a lot of deaths and still complete the task.

 

The difficulty being described for this easy mode, given 10 people, would have to be **easier** than open world bosses. For legendary Armor.

 

That's what it means here.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Yesterday I participated in training run. We had 3 players that never did any raids and 2 that never did VG. After 15-20 minutes of explanation we did it on second try with one player that died at 5 percent.

When i did it week before we finished VG, Spirit run, gorseval, cairne, mursat overseer and escort in 2 hours 15 minutes (including explanation) with 2 new players. The easy bosses (those above) are easy. You can kill them on first or second try if you never saw them. Others are harder but you need to only do them once for envoy armor.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > And yet a million times one is a million. However much you belittle the effort that would be needed to complete the run, it *would* take a positive amount of effort. Less effort per run than the current raids, indisputably, but nowhere near "zero," and therefore, it does deserve a fair fraction of the same rewards per attempt, and the opportunity for those fractional shares to eventually add up tot he same potential rewards.

>

> I've said what the fair fraction is. Collection for an unique armor skin of ascended quality. No LIs, no raid currencies, reduced changes for ascended and exotics, reduced gold rewards. That would be the fair fraction, courtesy of the differences in the effort required. You cannot bypass all the *actual* effort required - learning the mechanics of the fight, figuring out your role in dealing with them and getting good enough in said role - and want the same rewards. It just cannot happen.

 

What the fair fraction is *to you* is fairly far off what a fair fraction is. The actual fair fraction is that each time a player completes an easy encounter, he gets around 1/3-1/4 what he would get for completing it on normal, in such a way that he could put it back together again, and after 3-4 runs on that content would end up with the same reward the other player got for a single run. That is fair. The "learning the mechanics well enough to do the hard mode" part is completely unnecessary to the process.

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Ok, can you please write what you expect from easy raid player to have good chances? Like what dps should be enough?

 

I don't even know what the "right" number would be. 10,000? 500? 12? No clue. The DPs should be the average DPS that players put out in a random dungeon run pug. Whatever that is. Like I said though, ideally DPS wouldn't even be an issue, it would just be equalized so that as long as you keep attacking, you keep contributing, and can pay more attention to the mechanics.

 

>Looks like you know VG. Can you propose changes that would be acceptable for easy raids on that boss please?

 

I discussed this a few days back, I think the basics of it would be, start with the same encounter, same mechanics and timings and all that. Remove the enrage timer, allowing the match to last indefinitely. Reduce the damage caused by failing the green circles to the level that even a healthy glassy character would stay on their feet (but a wounded glassy character or very wounded tanky character might still drop to it). Reduce the damage caused by the "bad floor slices" to the level where *on their own* they are not a massive threat. They still hurt, the damage adds up, but that alone could be overhealed, and spending a few seconds in there is no real threat. Those are the changes that I think would be fairly necessary. Additional changes that *might* still be needed would include: *Potentially* reduce the damage caused by the red orbs, not sure if that would still be necessary or not. Reduce the damage of being in the wrong color attunement space.

 

I *think* that would be sufficient, but I imagine experts could weigh in on other factors I may not have considered, and as I noted above, it would be good to figure out a way to balance out meta-builds against non-meta ones to have less of a gap in their speed. The target I'm thinking of should be that it should be possible to tank/heal through a lot of the damage, but you have to be careful to not let *too* many effects pile up at once, and if everyone builds for defense then they would have way slower clear times than a meta build team on normal mode.

 

>Also if you want to make the gap between meta skilled players and random casual players smaller to the point where dps doesnt rly matter it doesnt encourage players to try and thats from my perspective bad design.

 

Again, "encouraging players to try" is not really the goal of easy mode, people who want that can play hard mode. For easy mode, the "encouragement to try" should be internal, try because you *want* to, not because the game *requires* you to, beyond a basic level, at least. You shouldn't need "proper rotations" or the best food and gear and all that. You should just be able to get in and do your best, and that should be enough.

 

>And if not since rewards for raids are limited to once per week i dont know why wouldnt raiders go fo full easymode run after they are done with nirmal fullclear since they can finish it in so short time. Its basicaly like 1-2 extra bosses.

 

I think ideally they should figure out a way to balance that, like make the hard and easy mode rewards incompatible. Ultimately though, if players already have the hard content on farm and want to clear out all the easy mode, I don't see the harm in that.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> One-shotting bosses means that you kill it first try.

 

You don't get to make up definitions for words. One-shot is *one. . .shot.*

 

>Funny thing, I oneshot many of my first raid boss kills. I killed Matthias on the first try on my first Matthias ever. Same with Sabetha, I even got the Eternal title in that first try ever. But raids are so difficult that they require to wipe and wipe and wipe until you get the kill :love:

 

Well ok, all I'm looking for is most players to have that same experience.

 

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> The difficulty being described for this easy mode, given 10 people, would have to be **easier** than open world bosses. For legendary Armor.

 

It's explicitly *not.*

 

Well, aside from like Triple Trouble and that sort of thing. It would be easier than Triple Trouble. It's hard to gauge individual participation in most world bosses since you can have some players just sitting on the sidelines and auto-attacking, but you do need at least a significant chunk of the players *actually* trying to clear it. I'm saying "balance it against those world bosses, under the expectation that the majority of the players in the easy raid would be trying *as hard as* the players actually working hard to kill the world boss." As for the players that choose to just flake out, well hard mode raids can carry a few dead weights too, so nothing different there.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Lets say they make easymode that can be cleard on first try with every compositiob and every build (with some thought in them). That means no boons, banners, ea, spotter, spirits and no heals and cc. Also no rotations.

>

> I've said it *should* be completed first try *most* of the time. I don't think it should be quite so lax that it guarantees a victory every time, it should just be like most instanced content in the game, where if at least a few people basically know what's up (even second hand) and you're basically good enough at the game to have gotten that far, then you *should* beat it on the first try. Clearly if every player is deliberately poorly put together, has no clue which end of their keyboard should be facing up, or makes zero attempt beyond turning on auto attack and getting a sandwich, then the attempt should fail, I'm *assuming* a minimum level of average competency and effort when I say that it *should* complete most of the time.

>

Good. Enter the current raids. They are exactly that. Some people need to know special tasks. The rest just stands there, hits the boss and dodges stuff. Dhuum excluded but you don't need Hall of Chains anyway for the armor. Most encounter are carried by 3-4 people. The rest just deals damage or fill a role if someone from those 3-4 dies.

(completion after T4 fractals)

> Maybe, but if they were a meta group they would only be making a few LI per week, when they could be making 3-4 times as much by doing the harder mode. Ideally they could figure out a way to balance the two a bit closer, so that the extra DPS that a meta group could bring would be less important to the duration of the fight than it would be in hard mode. Like maybe just make it so that the bosses have much less HP, but much higher defense, so everyone, regardless of build, is doing chip damage against it the entire time. That way, a "terrible" team would take ten minutes to wear down his HP, but also a meta team would take 10 minutes, since they'd be dealing the same effective damage. The only advantage the meta team would have is that they would be more efficient at avoiding attacks and thus spend less time recovering from them.

>

So they are faster to recover but it doesn't matter because everyone needs 10 minutes anyway? Didn't you say easy mode doesn't need any new tech and would just be copy&paste with some changed numbers? It isn't trivial to scale hp to DPS. Otherwise you get the same as normal mode.

 

> >No. Transporting less and lighter bricks per tour doesn't equal more effort for the same count of bricks.

>

> Again with you and your "lighter bricks," I still don't get why they have to be both less *and* lighter for you. The analogy was *less* of the *same* bricks, making the *load* each time lighter. That's all that's needed to make the analogy fit. So if you carry 10 bricks 100 times, it takes five times as many trips as if you carry 50 bricks 20 times, and each *trip* does certainly take less effort, and would deserve to be paid less, but at the end of the process, both of you ended up transporting the exact same 1000 bricks, and deserve to wind up with the exact same compensation.

>

But you don't transport the exact same bricks in easy and normal mode.

 

 

When will people realize that an easier version fixes nothing? The reason LFR in WoW or FFXIV is popular is not the difficulty but the difficulty with an automatic grouping feature. Most people still won't touch the easy mode. Especially not when they can have more rewards without groups in open world.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > And yet a million times one is a million. However much you belittle the effort that would be needed to complete the run, it *would* take a positive amount of effort. Less effort per run than the current raids, indisputably, but nowhere near "zero," and therefore, it does deserve a fair fraction of the same rewards per attempt, and the opportunity for those fractional shares to eventually add up tot he same potential rewards.

> >

> > I've said what the fair fraction is. Collection for an unique armor skin of ascended quality. No LIs, no raid currencies, reduced changes for ascended and exotics, reduced gold rewards. That would be the fair fraction, courtesy of the differences in the effort required. You cannot bypass all the *actual* effort required - learning the mechanics of the fight, figuring out your role in dealing with them and getting good enough in said role - and want the same rewards. It just cannot happen.

>

> What the fair fraction is *to you* is fairly far off what a fair fraction is. The actual fair fraction is that each time a player completes an easy encounter, he gets around 1/3-1/4 what he would get for completing it on normal.

 

That would only be fair if they needed to put 1/3rd to 1/4th of the effort required for the actual raid encounter. 1/3rd of the wipes, 1/3rd of the attention paid to builds and party composition, 1/3rd of the attention paid to the mechanical execution and so forth. Somehow I don't think you'd be happy with this either.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>Good. Enter the current raids. They are exactly that. Some people need to know special tasks. The rest just stands there, hits the boss and dodges stuff. Dhuum excluded but you don't need Hall of Chains anyway for the armor. Most encounter are carried by 3-4 people. The rest just deals damage or fill a role if someone from those 3-4 dies.

 

Sometimes people have that experience. You know as well as I that it's more often the exception rather than the rule, particularly if you aren't with an experienced team, if the team is not being exclusive about selecting experienced members, etc. If you've been raiding dozens of hours, if you've built up the credentials to prove it, then you might be able to arrange these sorts of experiences on a regular basis. What I'm looking for is a version that provides that same experience to players with miss-matched exotic and rare gear, vaguely defined open world builds, non-meta team comps, and zero credentials or credential checks.

 

I'm willing to test this theory. If you insist that this is the current reality, I'd be happy to test it. I'll log on later this week, join the first raid Sabetha LFG I can find, and if they'll both allow me to stay *and* we complete the boss within two attempts then I'll give up on the idea, at least until I have an experience in which I'm unable to find a raid group that would have me, or the group I end up in keeps failing miserably. But for your part, if I make that attempt and am not able to find such a group, then would you switch over to the pro-easy side?

 

>So they are faster to recover but it doesn't matter because everyone needs 10 minutes anyway? Didn't you say easy mode doesn't need any new tech and would just be copy&paste with some changed numbers?

 

Ideally, yeah. I was just brainstorming. It would be a nice idea though if it wouldn't be hard to do. They could just give them a lot of Toughness, but would also need to reduce Condi damage without completely negating it.

 

>Yes nobody confuses a koala for a bear if he ever saw those.

 

It's still a real thing, even if you haven't encountered it, look it up. It's like how some people call cookies "biscuits," even though they're nothing like biscuits.

 

>More like a racoon than a panda. The only common thing they have with great pandas is the location. Did you ever saw one?

 

Yes, they are adorable. They are also not raccoons. Raccoon dogs are also not raccoons. It's complicated.

 

>But you don't transport the exact same bricks in easy and normal mode.

 

Same bricks, just less of them. Look, it's an analogy, NO analogy EVER stands up to "but what if instead of bricked, they were monkeys?" Every analogy breaks down when you ignore the basic premise of the analogy. That is not the point of an analogy, and it doesn't support your position to do so. The point of the analogy is that a player carrying a lighter, easier load, over more repetitions, accomplishes the same amount of effort as someone carrying a heavier load over fewer repetitions, and that point holds no matter how much semantics you engage in.

 

 

 

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > And yet a million times one is a million. However much you belittle the effort that would be needed to complete the run, it *would* take a positive amount of effort. Less effort per run than the current raids, indisputably, but nowhere near "zero," and therefore, it does deserve a fair fraction of the same rewards per attempt, and the opportunity for those fractional shares to eventually add up tot he same potential rewards.

> >

> > I've said what the fair fraction is. Collection for an unique armor skin of ascended quality. No LIs, no raid currencies, reduced changes for ascended and exotics, reduced gold rewards. That would be the fair fraction, courtesy of the differences in the effort required. You cannot bypass all the *actual* effort required - learning the mechanics of the fight, figuring out your role in dealing with them and getting good enough in said role - and want the same rewards. It just cannot happen.

>

> What the fair fraction is *to you* is fairly far off what a fair fraction is. The actual fair fraction is that each time a player completes an easy encounter, he gets around 1/3-1/4 what he would get for completing it on normal, in such a way that he could put it back together again, and after 3-4 runs on that content would end up with the same reward the other player got for a single run. That is fair. The "learning the mechanics well enough to do the hard mode" part is completely unnecessary to the process.

>

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Ok, can you please write what you expect from easy raid player to have good chances? Like what dps should be enough?

>

> I don't even know what the "right" number would be. 10,000? 500? 12? No clue. The DPs should be the average DPS that players put out in a random dungeon run pug. Whatever that is. Like I said though, ideally DPS wouldn't even be an issue, it would just be equalized so that as long as you keep attacking, you keep contributing, and can pay more attention to the mechanics.

>

> >Looks like you know VG. Can you propose changes that would be acceptable for easy raids on that boss please?

>

> I discussed this a few days back, I think the basics of it would be, start with the same encounter, same mechanics and timings and all that. Remove the enrage timer, allowing the match to last indefinitely. Reduce the damage caused by failing the green circles to the level that even a healthy glassy character would stay on their feet (but a wounded glassy character or very wounded tanky character might still drop to it). Reduce the damage caused by the "bad floor slices" to the level where *on their own* they are not a massive threat. They still hurt, the damage adds up, but that alone could be overhealed, and spending a few seconds in there is no real threat. Those are the changes that I think would be fairly necessary. Additional changes that *might* still be needed would include: *Potentially* reduce the damage caused by the red orbs, not sure if that would still be necessary or not. Reduce the damage of being in the wrong color attunement space.

>

> I *think* that would be sufficient, but I imagine experts could weigh in on other factors I may not have considered, and as I noted above, it would be good to figure out a way to balance out meta-builds against non-meta ones to have less of a gap in their speed. The target I'm thinking of should be that it should be possible to tank/heal through a lot of the damage, but you have to be careful to not let *too* many effects pile up at once, and if everyone builds for defense then they would have way slower clear times than a meta build team on normal mode.

>

> >Also if you want to make the gap between meta skilled players and random casual players smaller to the point where dps doesnt rly matter it doesnt encourage players to try and thats from my perspective bad design.

>

> Again, "encouraging players to try" is not really the goal of easy mode, people who want that can play hard mode. For easy mode, the "encouragement to try" should be internal, try because you *want* to, not because the game *requires* you to, beyond a basic level, at least. You shouldn't need "proper rotations" or the best food and gear and all that. You should just be able to get in and do your best, and that should be enough.

>

> >And if not since rewards for raids are limited to once per week i dont know why wouldnt raiders go fo full easymode run after they are done with nirmal fullclear since they can finish it in so short time. Its basicaly like 1-2 extra bosses.

>

> I think ideally they should figure out a way to balance that, like make the hard and easy mode rewards incompatible. Ultimately though, if players already have the hard content on farm and want to clear out all the easy mode, I don't see the harm in that.

>

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > One-shotting bosses means that you kill it first try.

>

> You don't get to make up definitions for words. One-shot is *one. . .shot.*

>

> >Funny thing, I oneshot many of my first raid boss kills. I killed Matthias on the first try on my first Matthias ever. Same with Sabetha, I even got the Eternal title in that first try ever. But raids are so difficult that they require to wipe and wipe and wipe until you get the kill :love:

>

> Well ok, all I'm looking for is most players to have that same experience.

>

> > @"Sykper.6583" said:

> > The difficulty being described for this easy mode, given 10 people, would have to be **easier** than open world bosses. For legendary Armor.

>

> It's explicitly *not.*

>

> Well, aside from like Triple Trouble and that sort of thing. It would be easier than Triple Trouble. It's hard to gauge individual participation in most world bosses since you can have some players just sitting on the sidelines and auto-attacking, but you do need at least a significant chunk of the players *actually* trying to clear it. I'm saying "balance it against those world bosses, under the expectation that the majority of the players in the easy raid would be trying *as hard as* the players actually working hard to kill the world boss." As for the players that choose to just flake out, well hard mode raids can carry a few dead weights too, so nothing different there.

 

Well as i said during last vg training, only things that can cause a wipe there are: missing a green, too many players ported to lit up area and seekers. Right now greens do percentage based damage (80%) so healthy character will not be oneshoted. If you remove danger from portals and nerf seekers there is nothing that can actualy kill you

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Well more then the brick analogy i like this one.

You are assigned to say when does rectangel have highest area if you know sum of its sides. One aproach is to learn how to do it and then calculate it using derivations. Other aproach is to guess and try and one time you will be lucky.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Well as i said during last vg training, only things that can cause a wipe there are: missing a green, too many players ported to lit up area and seekers. Right now greens do percentage based damage (80%) so healthy character will not be oneshoted. If you remove danger from portals and nerf seekers there is nothing that can actualy kill you

 

Judging by the last few pages, the actual "objective" of this proposed easy mode is to provide free loot for lazy people. Make bosses giant sacks of hp with attacks that only tickle you (at the same time call them "same mechanics" for some reason).

 

As Detha Tremblebones says in Ascalonian Catacombs: No one's arguing about the need for a plan. Your plan is just stupid and won't work.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > >Oh really? So if I want a nice company car with all its fuel paid I don't have to apply for a specific job that offers one, I could simply walk to my boss and demand one, on the sole basis that somewhere somebody offers it?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No. That has absolutely nothing to do with the example being discussed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Except it is exactly the same. There are set rules for acquiring stuff. You want stuff, you don't like rules, so you want the rules changed. Some ego you have, I'll give you that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And you are not doing the same?

> > > > >

> > > > > Nope.

> > > >

> > > > No.. it's what you did.. you didn't like the current content and cried incessantly that it needed to change.. So.. yah.. looks like it's exactly what you did.

> > >

> > > Let me walk you through the differences.

> > >

> > > Asking for raids - which by the way I didn't participate in, as I wasn't even actively playing GW2 back then - is asking for new content. This doesn't change any existing rules, it simply asks for the game to expand.

> > > Current demands are nothing like that. They don't seek to expand the game as such, they seek to create shortcuts to existing rewards. Wanna know what a fair "easy mode" would be? Collection to get an unique armor skin of ascended quality which is *not* the Envoy one. No LIs, no magnetite shards, no gaething crystals, no guaranteed exotic (remains as possible drop), severely reduced chances for ascended drops, reduced gold per completed encounter. *That* would be expanding the game - although I'd argue about how meaningful it would be - and *that* would be fair. **I haven't seen a single person ask for that**. All I see is "we're OK with reduced rewards, as long as we're able to get everything without the effort required". Shortcuts. Still think it's the same?

> >

> > Actually you would be wrong.. because I did ask for that.. just Legendary Tier as opposed to Ascended.

> >

> > In fact, there was a whole series of topics about _Other Paths_ to Legendary Gear, that I think got merged somewhere, maybe even with this one.

> >

> > And the raiders cried that it would not be fair.

>

> Because it wouldn't. You want the same tier of rewards for considerably less effort? Get real.

 

How is memorizing a scripted encounter in one kind of content any different then memorizing a scripted encounter in another kind of content? As I recall many of you have all said.. PvE is PvE.. ergo it should all reward the same.

[STIHL.2489]

Well As I said many times already, Raids were a bad addition to the game, they brought the worst kind of egomaniacs to the game.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Well As I said many times already, Raids were a bad addition to the game, they brought the worst kind of egomaniacs to the game.

 

The worst egomaniacs are actually self-proclaimed 'casuals' that want every bit of the game for themselves while claiming they have no time for anything but can complain extensively on the forums.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Well As I said many times already, Raids were a bad addition to the game, they brought the worst kind of egomaniacs to the game.

>

> The worst egomaniacs are actually self-proclaimed 'casuals' that want every bit of the game for themselves while claiming they have no time for anything but can complain extensively on the forums.

 

at least they don't feel like they are better then other people because of the content of a **game** they play.

 

at least they want everyone to enjoy the game with them, not just their own little clique.

 

at least they want to include people into the game so we can all play together, not try to have the game divide up the player base.

 

at least they are not egomaniacs about it.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Well As I said many times already, Raids were a bad addition to the game, they brought the worst kind of egomaniacs to the game.

> >

> > The worst egomaniacs are actually self-proclaimed 'casuals' that want every bit of the game for themselves while claiming they have no time for anything but can complain extensively on the forums.

>

> at least they don't feel like they are better then other people because of the content of a **game** they play.

>

> at least they want everyone to enjoy the game with them, not just their own little clique.

>

> at least they want to include people into the game so we can all play together, not try to have the game divide up the player base.

>

> at least they are not egomaniacs about it.

 

No they don't care about the rest of the game. They only care about their own goals. If someone else profits from it it's a bonus but they don't care.

Every content divides the playerbase. Not everyone plays all content. Difficulty scales also divide, even worse than game modes.

They feel as better people because they payed for it. Like everyone else.

Yes they are egomanics for wanting everything in the game catering towards them.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > >Oh really? So if I want a nice company car with all its fuel paid I don't have to apply for a specific job that offers one, I could simply walk to my boss and demand one, on the sole basis that somewhere somebody offers it?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No. That has absolutely nothing to do with the example being discussed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Except it is exactly the same. There are set rules for acquiring stuff. You want stuff, you don't like rules, so you want the rules changed. Some ego you have, I'll give you that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And you are not doing the same?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nope.

> > > > >

> > > > > No.. it's what you did.. you didn't like the current content and cried incessantly that it needed to change.. So.. yah.. looks like it's exactly what you did.

> > > >

> > > > Let me walk you through the differences.

> > > >

> > > > Asking for raids - which by the way I didn't participate in, as I wasn't even actively playing GW2 back then - is asking for new content. This doesn't change any existing rules, it simply asks for the game to expand.

> > > > Current demands are nothing like that. They don't seek to expand the game as such, they seek to create shortcuts to existing rewards. Wanna know what a fair "easy mode" would be? Collection to get an unique armor skin of ascended quality which is *not* the Envoy one. No LIs, no magnetite shards, no gaething crystals, no guaranteed exotic (remains as possible drop), severely reduced chances for ascended drops, reduced gold per completed encounter. *That* would be expanding the game - although I'd argue about how meaningful it would be - and *that* would be fair. **I haven't seen a single person ask for that**. All I see is "we're OK with reduced rewards, as long as we're able to get everything without the effort required". Shortcuts. Still think it's the same?

> > >

> > > Actually you would be wrong.. because I did ask for that.. just Legendary Tier as opposed to Ascended.

> > >

> > > In fact, there was a whole series of topics about _Other Paths_ to Legendary Gear, that I think got merged somewhere, maybe even with this one.

> > >

> > > And the raiders cried that it would not be fair.

> >

> > Because it wouldn't. You want the same tier of rewards for considerably less effort? Get real.

>

> How is memorizing a scripted encounter in one kind of content any different then memorizing a scripted encounter in another kind of content? As I recall many of you have all said.. PvE is PvE.. ergo it should all reward the same.

 

Each Gamemode has its one path to Legendary Gear, PvE has one WvW has one and sPvP has one, if players don’t participate in the one path to said reward why should they new rewarded with it?

 

Again players can play a Unranked all they want, it won’t get them any closer to sPvP’s Legendary Armor, and the Same with Players that Play EotM it’s WvW but doesn’t provide them with the WvW Legendary Armor, Raids are PvE and is the PvE path to the PvE Legendary sorry that the facts are so cut and dry.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > >Oh really? So if I want a nice company car with all its fuel paid I don't have to apply for a specific job that offers one, I could simply walk to my boss and demand one, on the sole basis that somewhere somebody offers it?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No. That has absolutely nothing to do with the example being discussed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Except it is exactly the same. There are set rules for acquiring stuff. You want stuff, you don't like rules, so you want the rules changed. Some ego you have, I'll give you that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And you are not doing the same?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nope.

> > > > >

> > > > > No.. it's what you did.. you didn't like the current content and cried incessantly that it needed to change.. So.. yah.. looks like it's exactly what you did.

> > > >

> > > > Let me walk you through the differences.

> > > >

> > > > Asking for raids - which by the way I didn't participate in, as I wasn't even actively playing GW2 back then - is asking for new content. This doesn't change any existing rules, it simply asks for the game to expand.

> > > > Current demands are nothing like that. They don't seek to expand the game as such, they seek to create shortcuts to existing rewards. Wanna know what a fair "easy mode" would be? Collection to get an unique armor skin of ascended quality which is *not* the Envoy one. No LIs, no magnetite shards, no gaething crystals, no guaranteed exotic (remains as possible drop), severely reduced chances for ascended drops, reduced gold per completed encounter. *That* would be expanding the game - although I'd argue about how meaningful it would be - and *that* would be fair. **I haven't seen a single person ask for that**. All I see is "we're OK with reduced rewards, as long as we're able to get everything without the effort required". Shortcuts. Still think it's the same?

> > >

> > > Actually you would be wrong.. because I did ask for that.. just Legendary Tier as opposed to Ascended.

> > >

> > > In fact, there was a whole series of topics about _Other Paths_ to Legendary Gear, that I think got merged somewhere, maybe even with this one.

> > >

> > > And the raiders cried that it would not be fair.

> >

> > Because it wouldn't. You want the same tier of rewards for considerably less effort? Get real.

>

> How is memorizing a scripted encounter in one kind of content any different then memorizing a scripted encounter in another kind of content? As I recall many of you have all said.. PvE is PvE.. ergo it should all reward the same.

 

Only if the effort is the same. And if it is, then what exactly do you want? You already have your easy mode raids. They're called "raids". Go there, memorize, get rewards. Simple, right?

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Well As I said many times already, Raids were a bad addition to the game, they brought the worst kind of egomaniacs to the game.

> >

> > The worst egomaniacs are actually self-proclaimed 'casuals' that want every bit of the game for themselves while claiming they have no time for anything but can complain extensively on the forums.

>

> at least they don't feel like they are better then other people because of the content of a **game** they play.

>

> at least they want everyone to enjoy the game with them, not just their own little clique.

>

> at least they want to include people into the game so we can all play together, not try to have the game divide up the player base.

>

> at least they are not egomaniacs about it.

 

I dont feel like i am better then someone. I can say I am probably better at raiding since you are against raids but i dont need to compare with anyone. I just play like I want. Dont know why were raids bad for the game if some players that plays them play GW2 mostly for them. The reason i enjoy raids is that players have same mindset. I dont care if they are failing. More important to me is if they are trying to improve and aim for perfection. And all the players i raided with in the short time i was raidning had that mindset. I enjoy the theory behind the game, posible compositions, diferent strategies and builds and so on. Wondering why i never met a rude rider yet i can find so many rude players in forums.

 

I respect players like @"Ohoni.6057" even when I dont share his views because he tries to explain his point of view and also tries to understand other side of the argument. You on the other hand behave like angry kid. If i missinterpreted your post i apologise but i dont think I did. You can call me any name you want because I dont care about you. If i cared about every persons opinion i would probably be an alcoholic.

 

Hope you enjoy your time in game and life as much as I do

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > Well As I said many times already, Raids were a bad addition to the game, they brought the worst kind of egomaniacs to the game.

> > >

> > > The worst egomaniacs are actually self-proclaimed 'casuals' that want every bit of the game for themselves while claiming they have no time for anything but can complain extensively on the forums.

> >

> > at least they don't feel like they are better then other people because of the content of a **game** they play.

> >

> > at least they want everyone to enjoy the game with them, not just their own little clique.

> >

> > at least they want to include people into the game so we can all play together, not try to have the game divide up the player base.

> >

> > at least they are not egomaniacs about it.

>

> No they don't care about the rest of the game. They only care about their own goals.

 

That's Raiders. Not Casuals.

 

And the rest of what you said follows that faulty logic

[Torolan.5816]

An easy mode raid would just give me more from something I did not even want for the first time.

Legendary armor is available through wvw, and I am not interested in the difficulty of the content itself. It robs me of some sidequest lore, but that is not as severe because the story of GW2 is like a rollercoaster, an up and down in quality.

 

I would prefer raids to be marginalized through the simple lack of meaning instead of upgrading it by enlargement, and I m pretty hopeful that people would actually prefer to do wvw over raids.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > Well As I said many times already, Raids were a bad addition to the game, they brought the worst kind of egomaniacs to the game.

> > > >

> > > > The worst egomaniacs are actually self-proclaimed 'casuals' that want every bit of the game for themselves while claiming they have no time for anything but can complain extensively on the forums.

> > >

> > > at least they don't feel like they are better then other people because of the content of a **game** they play.

> > >

> > > at least they want everyone to enjoy the game with them, not just their own little clique.

> > >

> > > at least they want to include people into the game so we can all play together, not try to have the game divide up the player base.

> > >

> > > at least they are not egomaniacs about it.

> >

> > No they don't care about the rest of the game. They only care about their own goals.

>

> That's Raiders. Not Casuals.

>

> And the rest of what you said follows that faulty logic

 

The world isnt divided to raiders and casuals.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

It seems to me this thread has become less about the concept of difficulty levels and more about name calling. "Darned Raiders!" "Filthy Casuals!" And so it goes.

 

Is there anything left worth saying, in thread spanning nearly five months, 1,500 posts, and 16,000 views? You tell me!

[Vinceman.4572]

Yeah, this thread is "dead" in terms of a reasonable discussion. You may as well have a look at this one:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36349/please-overhaul-raids/

Same stuff going on there... :(

[nia.4725]

Nothing new, really. Just everyone repeating the same yet no one is going to change their opinion, so nothing really productive to do here.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> It seems to me this thread has become less about the concept of difficulty levels and more about name calling. "Darned Raiders!" "Filthy Casuals!" And so it goes.

>

> Is there anything left worth saying, in thread spanning nearly five months, 1,500 posts, and 16,000 views? You tell me!

 

The only thing that can stop this is affirmation from the dev team that either they have plans to make an easy mode and have a reward scheme in mind, or Re-posting the quote from Crystal (which will be ignored because Dev Speak) saying No we wont ever do an Easy Mode.

 

Outside of that we have enough dead horses here to make glue for an eternity.