nia.4725 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > Crystal Reid: > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. I didn't know about this statement. Seems very reasonable and yup, we definitely have some encounters where new raiders can start raiding without having a high skill level. Escort, Bandit Camp, Mursaat... those are very approachable, the first one doesn't even require any minimum amount of dps nor it has a timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf.8670 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > Well, in the end.. Anet should learn from Blizzard's mistake regarding building accessible Raids. > > > > > > > > If they can't or won't learn from the mistakes of others, then, there is no way they will survive. > > > > > > Quick question, since I have limited experience with wow (only did trial accounts). Can you do easy mode raids there while under geared to the extent that is being said here (i.e. 100% success chance with little to no difficulty to and from the group)? > > > > Not really. The raid finder will not let you queue if your average item level is under a certain threshold. > > since we don't have gear tiers to the extent of wow in gw2 and rely mostly on skill, how would that translate then? Restrict it to 80/exotic, maybe? Even though we as players don't make ANet policy I'd really like to see stuff like how this could work rather than people saying, "Nope. You can't have that." :) Story/"easy" mode doesn't actually have to be _easy_. It just might need to be toned down a bit for a group that may not be communicating with each other other than through in-game chat. It shouldn't be necessary to remove rewards from "easy"/story mode, just make a premade challenge mode and increase the drop rate for it for the cool loot. LFR in WoW got a lot of guff but it was quite successful. It was still pretty routine for Garalon and Durumu to completely destroy LFR groups. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Well as i said during last vg training, only things that can cause a wipe there are: missing a green, too many players ported to lit up area and seekers. Right now greens do percentage based damage (80%) so healthy character will not be oneshoted. If you remove danger from portals and nerf seekers there is nothing that can actualy kill you There's a ton of other things that can cause wipes, or partial wipes, that i have seen in training runs. Like healers not healing either the tank or the greens group, people going the wrong way on the split phase (and dying to aura trying to correct their mistake with the bad color boon on), people pulling either the blue or the red mini guardian on the red group during split, people eating the artillery barrage in the face and dying, people not cc-ing fast enough, letting the green spawn on the lit floor, or the most classic one - chain ressing failure. > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > Well, in the end.. Anet should learn from Blizzard's mistake regarding building accessible Raids. > > > > > > If they can't or won't learn from the mistakes of others, then, there is no way they will survive. > > > > Quick question, since I have limited experience with wow (only did trial accounts). Can you do easy mode raids there while under geared to the extent that is being said here (i.e. 100% success chance with little to no difficulty to and from the group)? > > Not really. The raid finder will not let you queue if your average item level is under a certain threshold. On the other side, wait one expac and you will have a reasonable chance of succeeding at that one normal mode encounter with just easily obtainable entry-level new expac gear. Wait two expacs, and you will be soloing that content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > As I see it, the better solution is how T4 Fractals work. > > > > > > > > * There should only be 1 Normal mode, and then repeatable CM that can be enabled at the start inside the instance. > > > > * Some bosses will always be more difficult than others, some easier to pug than others. > > > > * Most of the difficulty, specially for CM, will actually be on learning the mechanics and getting competent teammates, not on getting some specific meta build with some specific gear and attributes. > > > > > > > > > > And that's what we have at the moment. > > > > When was the last time you got rewards from repeating a raid CM? > > Oh, I didn't understand properly that part and you're right. We don't have that, and it would be really nice to have some kind of little incentive to repeat CMs -as I said on reddit on a thread about it, 10 magnetite shards per CM and week would be cool. Even if the weekly repeatable CM rewards were only from the raids that have the Call of the Mists, it'd be better than nothing at all. It could be even better, since for each CM you'd have both weeks with bonus reward, and weeks without. So when it's not up for a raid, nobody feels forced to do CM, and when it's up, there's more incentives to do it CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > Crystal Reid: > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. I could give you similar quotes for dungeons. And we all know how fast the first nerfs arrived and how the difficulty of those ended up And about the entry level encounter difficulty that is supposed to ease you into raids... Done SH lately? That's the entry encounter of w5, all right. And instead of helping players in, it has done far more towards scaring them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > As I see it, the better solution is how T4 Fractals work. > > > > > > > > > > * There should only be 1 Normal mode, and then repeatable CM that can be enabled at the start inside the instance. > > > > > * Some bosses will always be more difficult than others, some easier to pug than others. > > > > > * Most of the difficulty, specially for CM, will actually be on learning the mechanics and getting competent teammates, not on getting some specific meta build with some specific gear and attributes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that's what we have at the moment. > > > > > > When was the last time you got rewards from repeating a raid CM? > > > > Oh, I didn't understand properly that part and you're right. We don't have that, and it would be really nice to have some kind of little incentive to repeat CMs -as I said on reddit on a thread about it, 10 magnetite shards per CM and week would be cool. > > Even if the weekly repeatable CM rewards were only from the raids that have the Call of the Mists, it'd be better than nothing at all. > > It could be even better, since for each CM you'd have both weeks with bonus reward, and weeks without. So when it's not up for a raid, nobody feels forced to do CM, and when it's up, there's more incentives to do it CM. Absolutely. It would also increase the number of raiders willing to join a CM lfg. It's very difficult right now to get 10 people for a CM -I waited like 30 minutes until the Deimos CM pug group I was in filled : // and now I sometimes want to join some groups because they struggle to find a handkiter, and I can fill that role. But why would I do that if it gives me 0 reward? I like handkiting, but it gets boring and it's very, very tiring. Some little incentive would be healthy and bring more raiders to CMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Well as i said during last vg training, only things that can cause a wipe there are: missing a green, too many players ported to lit up area and seekers. Right now greens do percentage based damage (80%) so healthy character will not be oneshoted. If you remove danger from portals and nerf seekers there is nothing that can actualy kill you > There's a ton of other things that can cause wipes, or partial wipes, that i have seen in training runs. Like healers not healing either the tank or the greens group, people going the wrong way on the split phase (and dying to aura trying to correct their mistake with the bad color boon on), people pulling either the blue or the red mini guardian on the red group during split, people eating the artillery barrage in the face and dying, people not cc-ing fast enough, letting the green spawn on the lit floor, or the most classic one - chain ressing failure. > > > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > Well, in the end.. Anet should learn from Blizzard's mistake regarding building accessible Raids. > > > > > > > > If they can't or won't learn from the mistakes of others, then, there is no way they will survive. > > > > > > Quick question, since I have limited experience with wow (only did trial accounts). Can you do easy mode raids there while under geared to the extent that is being said here (i.e. 100% success chance with little to no difficulty to and from the group)? > > > > Not really. The raid finder will not let you queue if your average item level is under a certain threshold. > On the other side, wait one expac and you will have a reasonable chance of succeeding at that one normal mode encounter with just easily obtainable entry-level new expac gear. Wait two expacs, and you will be soloing that content. > > In wow? True perhaps, but do consider that gw2 does not ask you to get better gear so to speak. At least not in the same way wow seems to, from what I've been told. Would it be a fair comparison to say that a wow raid in which you are using the gear from previous (or in this case 2 xpacs ago) to try to raid is comparable to gw2 raid in terms of difficulty? Also I am interested in hearing your ideas on how we can further eliminate the chances of human errors in raids, such as what you described, in my other thread if you would be so inclined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > > > Crystal Reid: > > > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. > > I could give you similar quotes for dungeons. And we all know how fast the first nerfs arrived and how the difficulty of those ended up > > And about the entry level encounter difficulty that is supposed to ease you into raids... Done SH lately? That's the entry encounter of w5, all right. And instead of helping players in, it has done far more towards scaring them away. > > This post isn’t about Dungeons and those Devs I charge of Dungeons are all but gone, and Anet has stuck to this intent on this for two years now, so quit trying to derail the thread since again this isn’t about Dungeons it’s about Raids , and yeah the W5 encounter is pretty easy compared to the rest of the W5, and Entry Level Encounters are in every single Wing, and if players find W5 first encounter hard they can try on the other easy Entry Level encounters in the other Wings which to this day are being ran Daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > > > > > Crystal Reid: > > > > > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > > > > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > > > > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > > > > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > > > > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. > > > > I could give you similar quotes for dungeons. And we all know how fast the first nerfs arrived and how the difficulty of those ended up > > > > And about the entry level encounter difficulty that is supposed to ease you into raids... Done SH lately? That's the entry encounter of w5, all right. And instead of helping players in, it has done far more towards scaring them away. > > > > > > This post isn’t about Dungeons and those Devs I charge of Dungeons are all but gone, and Anet has stuck to this intent on this for two years now, so quit trying to derail the thread since again this isn’t about Dungeons it’s about Raids , and yeah the W5 encounter is pretty easy compared to the rest of the W5, and Entry Level Encounters are in every single Wing, and if players find W5 first encounter hard they can try on the other easy Entry Level encounters in the other Wings which to this day are being ran Daily. Soulless Horror isn't easy and even less it would be for a noob raider... Its main problem is the insane amount of RNG it has and how it puts all the pressure on 3 or 4 people -chronos and druids. We could argue though that SH is easy for a DPS player, once he gets used to the horrible instakill walls. However what I understood from that quote is that there are some bosses that are "entry level", not that those entry level bosses are always the first ones in their respective wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > Crystal Reid: > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. It's their grave.. they can dig it however they want. All I have done is try to warn them.. _this is not a good way to do things_. WoW (and other MMO's) already went though this, they already learned that it was not a good idea to do things that way. It defeats the point to hire professionals to design and build things for a company if those people are not willing to learn form the mistakes made by others. But again.. their game.. their job.. their pink slip if they screw up.. good luck to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > The difficulty being described for this easy mode, given 10 people, would have to be **easier** than open world bosses. For legendary Armor. > > It's explicitly *not.* > >** Well, aside from like Triple Trouble and that sort of thing. It would be easier than Triple Trouble. **It's hard to gauge individual participation in most world bosses since you can have some players just sitting on the sidelines and auto-attacking, but you do need at least a significant chunk of the players *actually* trying to clear it. I'm saying "balance it against those world bosses, under the expectation that the majority of the players in the easy raid would be trying *as hard as* the players actually working hard to kill the world boss." As for the players that choose to just flake out, well hard mode raids can carry a few dead weights too, so nothing different there. So still easier than open world bosses. You also aren't quite 'qualifying' the effort here, nor understand that open world bosses intentionally scale to down people fairly readily, just because there's so many people actually doing the event. When you bring the number down to 10, statically, you need to ensure there's **absolutely nothing that can down any of the players fighting in the encounter.** Because any comp, any builds should be able to reliably clear it, failure is practically extremely rare in your envisioned, easy mode for raids that want to give out the same loot as the current difficulty. At the very least admit you want HP golems that do fancy moves that hit like a wet noodle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >Well as i said during last vg training, only things that can cause a wipe there are: missing a green, too many players ported to lit up area and seekers. Right now greens do percentage based damage (80%) so healthy character will not be oneshoted. If you remove danger from portals and nerf seekers there is nothing that can actualy kill you Individually no, but if you're getting hit by everything at the same time it would add up. There would be multiple ways to play this, either to just be very tanky and healy and survive through it (potentially at the cost of kill speed), or deal with at least one of the mechanics most of the time. Again, it *shouldn't* be killing players that are actually paying attention and trying to fight the encounter, hard mode does that job plenty well. It should only be killing players who are just sitting there auto-attacking and not paying attention to anything ever. >You are assigned to say when does rectangel have highest area if you know sum of its sides. One aproach is to learn how to do it and then calculate it using derivations. >Other aproach is to guess and try and one time you will be lucky. So. . . which one is easier? >I dont feel like i am better then someone. I can say I am probably better at raiding since you are against raids but i dont need to compare with anyone. I just play like I want. You say that, but then you're also here in this thread telling other players that they can't have the raid mode they want, the rewards that they want, unless they play how *you* want. I'm all for you playing how you want to play, I just don't support you telling other people how *they* should player, or how *they* should be rewarded for playing how they want to play. I have no problem with raiders in general who just want to play raids. That's great. I only come into conflict with them when they try and gatekeep what other players "deserve" by their own standards. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Only if the effort is the same. And if it is, then what exactly do you want? You already have your easy mode raids. They're called "raids". Go there, memorize, get rewards. Simple, right? It should not be difficult to understand that easy mode raids would be easi*er* than the existing versions. Otherwise what would be the point? > @"Torolan.5816" said: > I would prefer raids to be marginalized through the simple lack of meaning instead of upgrading it by enlargement, and I m pretty hopeful that people would actually prefer to do wvw over raids. I hate to tell you, but easy mode raids or no, nobody wants to WvW. > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > It seems to me this thread has become less about the concept of difficulty levels and more about name calling. "Darned Raiders!" "Filthy Casuals!" And so it goes. > > Is there anything left worth saying, in thread spanning nearly five months, 1,500 posts, and 16,000 views? You tell me! It would really help if the devs would officially commit to *resolving* this issue, by presenting some way for players to engage in raids without the challenge factor of the existing ones, and some path toward Envoy armor that does not involve having to complete raids in their current state. Until that happens, I'm afraid this issue will keep coming up. And I am sorry for the confusion, the raid players do not want this topic to EVER be discussed, and attempt to derail and shut down any thread on it they can manage. I do my best to remain civil and productive. > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > Quick question, since I have limited experience with wow (only did trial accounts). Can you do easy mode raids there while under geared to the extent that is being said here (i.e. 100% success chance with little to no difficulty to and from the group)? The difference with raids in those games is progression. Wing 1 rewards armor that is better than anything else in the game. Wing 2 rewards even better armor, but practically requires you to beat Wing 1's first. Wing 3 continues this trend, as does Wing 4, but when PoF came out, the "casual open world" drops would be armor on par with the Wing 2 or 3 armor, easy as pie, and of course a mixed party of new players and those in Wing4 armor could sail through Wing 1. So basically, while you can't clear the absolute newest raid "super easy," you understand that with a little patience, the raids become easy on their own. Basically if GW2 used progression raiding principles, then anyone today could faceroll any Wing1 encounters, and likely Wing 2, using PoF green and blue drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: > So still easier than open world bosses. You also aren't quite 'qualifying' the effort here, nor understand that open world bosses intentionally scale to down people fairly readily, just because there's so many people actually doing the event. Again, it is VERY difficult to compare instanced content to open world, just because of the nature of their design. Most open world is designed around swarm tactics, designed around large portions of the people challenging it playing poorly. You can have a dozen players doing everything perfectly, and another two dozen standing around pressing 1. How would you gauge the difficulty of that encounter? I'm saying, I think that the easy mode should be "more reliably successful" than certain open world bosses, just due to the random natures of crowd control, but the players should be expected to pay attention and play like the open world boss players who are actively *engaged* with the encounter, not the ones that just bunch up and auto-attack. >At the very least admit you want HP golems that do fancy moves that hit like a wet noodle. Do you agree that this is a leading question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >Well as i said during last vg training, only things that can cause a wipe there are: missing a green, too many players ported to lit up area and seekers. Right now greens do percentage based damage (80%) so healthy character will not be oneshoted. If you remove danger from portals and nerf seekers there is nothing that can actualy kill you > > Individually no, but if you're getting hit by everything at the same time it would add up. There would be multiple ways to play this, either to just be very tanky and healy and survive through it (potentially at the cost of kill speed), or deal with at least one of the mechanics most of the time. Again, it *shouldn't* be killing players that are actually paying attention and trying to fight the encounter, hard mode does that job plenty well. It should only be killing players who are just sitting there auto-attacking and not paying attention to anything ever. > > >You are assigned to say when does rectangel have highest area if you know sum of its sides. One aproach is to learn how to do it and then calculate it using derivations. >Other aproach is to guess and try and one time you will be lucky. > > So. . . which one is easier? > > >I dont feel like i am better then someone. I can say I am probably better at raiding since you are against raids but i dont need to compare with anyone. I just play like I want. > > You say that, but then you're also here in this thread telling other players that they can't have the raid mode they want, the rewards that they want, unless they play how *you* want. I'm all for you playing how you want to play, I just don't support you telling other people how *they* should player, or how *they* should be rewarded for playing how they want to play. > > I have no problem with raiders in general who just want to play raids. That's great. I only come into conflict with them when they try and gatekeep what other players "deserve" by their own standards. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Only if the effort is the same. And if it is, then what exactly do you want? You already have your easy mode raids. They're called "raids". Go there, memorize, get rewards. Simple, right? > > It should not be difficult to understand that easy mode raids would be easi*er* than the existing versions. Otherwise what would be the point? > > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > I would prefer raids to be marginalized through the simple lack of meaning instead of upgrading it by enlargement, and I m pretty hopeful that people would actually prefer to do wvw over raids. > > I hate to tell you, but easy mode raids or no, nobody wants to WvW. > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > > It seems to me this thread has become less about the concept of difficulty levels and more about name calling. "Darned Raiders!" "Filthy Casuals!" And so it goes. > > > > Is there anything left worth saying, in thread spanning nearly five months, 1,500 posts, and 16,000 views? You tell me! > > It would really help if the devs would officially commit to *resolving* this issue, by presenting some way for players to engage in raids without the challenge factor of the existing ones, and some path toward Envoy armor that does not involve having to complete raids in their current state. Until that happens, I'm afraid this issue will keep coming up. And I am sorry for the confusion, the raid players do not want this topic to EVER be discussed, and attempt to derail and shut down any thread on it they can manage. I do my best to remain civil and productive. > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Quick question, since I have limited experience with wow (only did trial accounts). Can you do easy mode raids there while under geared to the extent that is being said here (i.e. 100% success chance with little to no difficulty to and from the group)? > > The difference with raids in those games is progression. Wing 1 rewards armor that is better than anything else in the game. Wing 2 rewards even better armor, but practically requires you to beat Wing 1's first. Wing 3 continues this trend, as does Wing 4, but when PoF came out, the "casual open world" drops would be armor on par with the Wing 2 or 3 armor, easy as pie, and of course a mixed party of new players and those in Wing4 armor could sail through Wing 1. So basically, while you can't clear the absolute newest raid "super easy," you understand that with a little patience, the raids become easy on their own. Basically if GW2 used progression raiding principles, then anyone today could faceroll any Wing1 encounters, and likely Wing 2, using PoF green and blue drops. One no such thing as Hardmode Raids in this game. Two Devs did Commot to resolve this, here it is again straight form the Raid Devs. *Crystal Reid:* *“In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill.* *Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.”* *“Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.* *Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)”* Just because certain people don’t want to accept the answer and commitment and solution that the Devs made doesn’t mean it hasn’t been stated and committed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > One no such thing as Hardmode Raids in this game. One, we're discussing the potential of an "easy mode" raid, the hard mode is the other end of that spectrum. The current raids are hard, we're looking for something easier. Use whatever terms you believe are appropriate, but I'll use mine. >Two Devs did Commot to resolve this, here it is again straight form the Raid Devs. Two, devs have commented on the issue, but with a, so far, negative response, which will never make this topic go away. They need to respond with a *positive* response that actually *addresses* the interests of the community, not one that merely says that they don't intend to fix it. I'm just stating a fact, with or without my involvement this topic comes up every few weeks, at minimum. there si clearly community interest on it, and they need to provide *some* answer that actually satisfies the interests of those players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >Well as i said during last vg training, only things that can cause a wipe there are: missing a green, too many players ported to lit up area and seekers. Right now greens do percentage based damage (80%) so healthy character will not be oneshoted. If you remove danger from portals and nerf seekers there is nothing that can actualy kill you > Individually no, but if you're getting hit by everything at the same time it would add up. There would be multiple ways to play this, either to just be very tanky and healy and survive through it (potentially at the cost of kill speed), or deal with at least one of the mechanics most of the time. Again, it *shouldn't* be killing players that are actually paying attention and trying to fight the encounter, hard mode does that job plenty well. It should only be killing players who are just sitting there auto-attacking and not paying attention to anything ever. As you want raids balanced around mismatched exotic/rare equipment without a proper build, they will be easier than most open world bosses and you couldn't die there even with autoattack. You have healers in raids you know? Those people will also never enter a raid outside of a LFR like easy mode which won't happen. > You say that, but then you're also here in this thread telling other players that they can't have the raid mode they want, the rewards that they want, unless they play how *you* want. I'm all for you playing how you want to play, I just don't support you telling other people how *they* should player, or how *they* should be rewarded for playing how they want to play. > > I have no problem with raiders in general who just want to play raids. That's great. I only come into conflict with them when they try and gatekeep what other players "deserve" by their own standards. > Ah the good old 'play how you want' argument. Didn't saw this in ages. It never applied for instanced content. > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > I would prefer raids to be marginalized through the simple lack of meaning instead of upgrading it by enlargement, and I m pretty hopeful that people would actually prefer to do wvw over raids. > > I hate to tell you, but easy mode raids or no, nobody wants to WvW. > That is a flat out lie. > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > > It seems to me this thread has become less about the concept of difficulty levels and more about name calling. "Darned Raiders!" "Filthy Casuals!" And so it goes. > > > > Is there anything left worth saying, in thread spanning nearly five months, 1,500 posts, and 16,000 views? You tell me! > > It would really help if the devs would officially commit to *resolving* this issue, by presenting some way for players to engage in raids without the challenge factor of the existing ones, and some path toward Envoy armor that does not involve having to complete raids in their current state. Until that happens, I'm afraid this issue will keep coming up. And I am sorry for the confusion, the raid players do not want this topic to EVER be discussed, and attempt to derail and shut down any thread on it they can manage. I do my best to remain civil and productive. > They already resolved the issue, just not in your favor. But as it didn't cater towards you it doesn't count right? It was civil for the most part but wanting an easy mode easier than all instanced content and open world after HoT while rewarding legendary armor is just ridiculous. > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Quick question, since I have limited experience with wow (only did trial accounts). Can you do easy mode raids there while under geared to the extent that is being said here (i.e. 100% success chance with little to no difficulty to and from the group)? > > The difference with raids in those games is progression. Wing 1 rewards armor that is better than anything else in the game. Wing 2 rewards even better armor, but practically requires you to beat Wing 1's first. Wing 3 continues this trend, as does Wing 4, but when PoF came out, the "casual open world" drops would be armor on par with the Wing 2 or 3 armor, easy as pie, and of course a mixed party of new players and those in Wing4 armor could sail through Wing 1. So basically, while you can't clear the absolute newest raid "super easy," you understand that with a little patience, the raids become easy on their own. Basically if GW2 used progression raiding principles, then anyone today could faceroll any Wing1 encounters, and likely Wing 2, using PoF green and blue drops. If you raid from content patch to content patch without a larger break you just faceroll the newest raid because of their stupid titanforged system. You already enter the newest raid overgeared. The only part where this doesn't apply is mythic which opens in the second week and requires a heroic clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >As you want raids balanced around mismatched exotic/rare equipment without a proper build, they will be easier than most open world bosses and you couldn't die there even with autoattack. Again, it's hard to judge "easier/harder" between open world and instanced content, as the personal responsibility involved is vastly different. I assume you're trying to make a prejudicing statement here ("easier than open world, oh my!"), I don't know, it might indeed be easier than open world encounters if you only bring ten people, but I've rarely if ever seen a serious open world boss attempt involving ten people or less, so that doesn't seem like a reasonable comparison to make. *What I AM saying is,* it should not be so easy that just standing in place and autoattacking should prove successful. Players should have to move around, players should have to use *all* the number keys (or at least several of them), players should have to dodge sometimes, it should be an *engaging* gameplay activity, take that for what you will. >They already resolved the issue, just not in your favor. No, they haven't resolved it. The closest we've had so far is a statement saying that they dfon't *intend* to resolve it any time soon. That is not resolving it. They need to actually make a *change to the game* that satisfies the people currently unsatisfied by the currently available raids. No amount of talk will resolve anything. >It was civil for the most part but wanting an easy mode easier than all instanced content and open world after HoT while rewarding legendary armor is just ridiculous. Agreed, that is why I'm not asking for that. I don't recall anyone asking for that. If you think I ever have asked for that, then you misunderstood me, likely deliberately. >If you raid from content patch to content patch without a larger break you just faceroll the newest raid because of their stupid titanforged system. You already enter the newest raid overgeared. The only part where this doesn't apply is mythic which opens in the second week and requires a heroic clear. My data is likely outdated since I haven't been following WoW closely in many years, but I weas describing more how it originally worked, when players said it was "perfect, before the casuals ruinded it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > > > > > Crystal Reid: > > > > > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > > > > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > > > > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > > > > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > > > > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. > > > > It's their grave.. they can dig it however they want. > > > > All I have done is try to warn them.. _this is not a good way to do things_. > > > > WoW (and other MMO's) already went though this, they already learned that it was not a good idea to do things that way. It defeats the point to hire professionals to design and build things for a company if those people are not willing to learn form the mistakes made by others. > > > > But again.. their game.. their job.. their pink slip if they screw up.. good luck to them. > > You fail, as always, to mention four key differences. All those other games have automated grouping features for the lowest difficulty, which won't happen in GW2 ArenaNet already said 5 years ago they don't want such systems in PvE. And all other games use raids as main content, part of the main story and main part for gear progression. This is not the case in GW2 so how should ArenaNet learn from those games when their approach is completely different? That is because, not all games with raids have those features. But, the way Anet put in raids and the rewards behind them, fell into the trap all those games suffer from, which is also a massive failing on their part as well. "_Oh look the highest tier gear is locked behind a Raid_" Humm now where have we all seen that before.. oh right.. every game ever with a raid. Zero originality, Zero Effort to make Raids in this game their own Unique Thing, and Zero effort to Avoid Any of the Pitfalls of all the MMO's before them. If they are going to WoW Clone like that, they should at the very least, make some effort to learn from WoW's mistakes.. that's just common sense. And if that is their forward method.. yah.. it's their grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >As you want raids balanced around mismatched exotic/rare equipment without a proper build, they will be easier than most open world bosses and you couldn't die there even with autoattack. > > Again, it's hard to judge "easier/harder" between open world and instanced content, as the personal responsibility involved is vastly different. I assume you're trying to make a prejudicing statement here ("easier than open world, oh my!"), I don't know, it might indeed be easier than open world encounters if you only bring ten people, but I've rarely if ever seen a serious open world boss attempt involving ten people or less, so that doesn't seem like a reasonable comparison to make. > > *What I AM saying is,* it should not be so easy that just standing in place and autoattacking should prove successful. Players should have to move around, players should have to use *all* the number keys (or at least several of them), players should have to dodge sometimes, it should be an *engaging* gameplay activity, take that for what you will. > No it's pretty easy to judge if it would be easier. You can choose the people you play with in instanced content, not in open world. So it is by default easier. > >They already resolved the issue, just not in your favor. > > No, they haven't resolved it. The closest we've had so far is a statement saying that they dfon't *intend* to resolve it any time soon. That is not resolving it. They need to actually make a *change to the game* that satisfies the people currently unsatisfied by the currently available raids. No amount of talk will resolve anything. > No that is actually wrong. They can just to resolve it by maintaining status quo. > >It was civil for the most part but wanting an easy mode easier than all instanced content and open world after HoT while rewarding legendary armor is just ridiculous. > > Agreed, that is why I'm not asking for that. I don't recall anyone asking for that. If you think I ever have asked for that, then you misunderstood me, likely deliberately. > Yes you do. If you want people without a proper build and mismatched rare/exotic armor to complete it at first try you are asking for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > > > > > > > Crystal Reid: > > > > > > > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > > > > > > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > > > > > > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > > > > > > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > > > > > > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. > > > > > > It's their grave.. they can dig it however they want. > > > > > > All I have done is try to warn them.. _this is not a good way to do things_. > > > > > > WoW (and other MMO's) already went though this, they already learned that it was not a good idea to do things that way. It defeats the point to hire professionals to design and build things for a company if those people are not willing to learn form the mistakes made by others. > > > > > > But again.. their game.. their job.. their pink slip if they screw up.. good luck to them. > > > > You fail, as always, to mention four key differences. All those other games have automated grouping features for the lowest difficulty, which won't happen in GW2 ArenaNet already said 5 years ago they don't want such systems in PvE. And all other games use raids as main content, part of the main story and main part for gear progression. This is not the case in GW2 so how should ArenaNet learn from those games when their approach is completely different? > > That is because, not all games with raids have those features. > > But, the way Anet put in raids and the rewards behind them, fell into the trap all those games suffer from, which is also a massive failing on their part as well. > > "_Oh look the highest tier gear is locked behind a Raid_" Humm now where have we all seen that before.. oh right.. every game ever with a raid. > > Zero originality, Zero Effort to make Raids in this game their own Unique Thing, and Zero effort to Avoid Any of the Pitfalls of all the MMO's before them. > > If they are going to WoW Clone like that, they should at the very least, make some effort to learn from WoW's mistakes.. that's just common sense. > > And if that is their forward method.. yah.. it's their grave. Thank god legendary armor is not locked behind raids. So they already avoided everything you wrote here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > > > > > > > > > Crystal Reid: > > > > > > > > > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > > > > > > > > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > > > > > > > > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > > > > > > > > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. > > > > > > > > It's their grave.. they can dig it however they want. > > > > > > > > All I have done is try to warn them.. _this is not a good way to do things_. > > > > > > > > WoW (and other MMO's) already went though this, they already learned that it was not a good idea to do things that way. It defeats the point to hire professionals to design and build things for a company if those people are not willing to learn form the mistakes made by others. > > > > > > > > But again.. their game.. their job.. their pink slip if they screw up.. good luck to them. > > > > > > You fail, as always, to mention four key differences. All those other games have automated grouping features for the lowest difficulty, which won't happen in GW2 ArenaNet already said 5 years ago they don't want such systems in PvE. And all other games use raids as main content, part of the main story and main part for gear progression. This is not the case in GW2 so how should ArenaNet learn from those games when their approach is completely different? > > > > That is because, not all games with raids have those features. > > > > But, the way Anet put in raids and the rewards behind them, fell into the trap all those games suffer from, which is also a massive failing on their part as well. > > > > "_Oh look the highest tier gear is locked behind a Raid_" Humm now where have we all seen that before.. oh right.. every game ever with a raid. > > > > Zero originality, Zero Effort to make Raids in this game their own Unique Thing, and Zero effort to Avoid Any of the Pitfalls of all the MMO's before them. > > > > If they are going to WoW Clone like that, they should at the very least, make some effort to learn from WoW's mistakes.. that's just common sense. > > > > And if that is their forward method.. yah.. it's their grave. > > Thank god legendary armor is not locked behind raids. So they already avoided everything you wrote here. Oh really.. so.. tell me.. What Other PvE Content can I do to get Legendary Armor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > A few Key points that need to be stated since this is Anet’s Stance on the Matter and is extremely relevant to this thread: > > > > > > > > > > > > Crystal Reid: > > > > > > > > > > > > “In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.” > > > > > > > > > > > > “Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK)” > > > > > > > > > > > > So from these posts we can see their clear intent on Raid Difficulty. > > > > > > > > > > It's their grave.. they can dig it however they want. > > > > > > > > > > All I have done is try to warn them.. _this is not a good way to do things_. > > > > > > > > > > WoW (and other MMO's) already went though this, they already learned that it was not a good idea to do things that way. It defeats the point to hire professionals to design and build things for a company if those people are not willing to learn form the mistakes made by others. > > > > > > > > > > But again.. their game.. their job.. their pink slip if they screw up.. good luck to them. > > > > > > > > You fail, as always, to mention four key differences. All those other games have automated grouping features for the lowest difficulty, which won't happen in GW2 ArenaNet already said 5 years ago they don't want such systems in PvE. And all other games use raids as main content, part of the main story and main part for gear progression. This is not the case in GW2 so how should ArenaNet learn from those games when their approach is completely different? > > > > > > That is because, not all games with raids have those features. > > > > > > But, the way Anet put in raids and the rewards behind them, fell into the trap all those games suffer from, which is also a massive failing on their part as well. > > > > > > "_Oh look the highest tier gear is locked behind a Raid_" Humm now where have we all seen that before.. oh right.. every game ever with a raid. > > > > > > Zero originality, Zero Effort to make Raids in this game their own Unique Thing, and Zero effort to Avoid Any of the Pitfalls of all the MMO's before them. > > > > > > If they are going to WoW Clone like that, they should at the very least, make some effort to learn from WoW's mistakes.. that's just common sense. > > > > > > And if that is their forward method.. yah.. it's their grave. > > > > Thank god legendary armor is not locked behind raids. So they already avoided everything you wrote here. > > Oh really.. so.. tell me.. What Other PvE Content can I do to get Legendary Armor? The PvE part of WvW. Also it doesn't matter if the only pure PvE method is raids in the current situation. Saying that the armor is locked behind raids is still a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >No that is actually wrong. They can just to resolve it by maintaining status quo. But again, that doesn't resolve anything. The people disenfranchised by the current offering remain disenfranchised. It's like saying "the solution to poverty is to do nothing and for the poor to accept that they will always be poor." Well that might make *you* feel better about it, but it isn't going to make the poor feel any better about it. My point is, there is no rhetorical "win condition" on this issue, you can argue about it all you like, but until things change, nothing is going to change, people will keep asking for change. >Yes you do. If you want people without a proper build and mismatched rare/exotic armor to complete it at first try you are asking for that. Nope, two separate things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >No that is actually wrong. They can just to resolve it by maintaining status quo. > > But again, that doesn't resolve anything. The people disenfranchised by the current offering remain disenfranchised. It's like saying "the solution to poverty is to do nothing and for the poor to accept that they will always be poor." Well that might make *you* feel better about it, but it isn't going to make the poor feel any better about it. > > My point is, there is no rhetorical "win condition" on this issue, you can argue about it all you like, but until things change, nothing is going to change, people will keep asking for change. > And most will still don't do raids without an automated grouping feature. > >Yes you do. If you want people without a proper build and mismatched rare/exotic armor to complete it at first try you are asking for that. > > Nope, two separate things. No they are not. Balancing instanced content around such players makes it easier than open world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >And most will still don't do raids without an automated grouping feature. I don't see what the need would be for an auto-grouping feature if you can just open the LFG and grab the first nine people you see. What is the difference? >No they are not. Balancing instanced content around such players makes it easier than open world. Again, that is a complex question to answer, because the "difficulty" of open world is so random due to the higher number of variables. Would we be talking "easier means that it has a higher chance of succeeding/lower chance of failing," or "easier means that the individual tasks needed to succeed are fewer and/or easier for each individual player to successfully complete?" I don't think that "player who does not engage the mechanics at all, or does so half-heartedly" should really factor into "difficulty" calculations, it should be about how the content is *meant* to play out when players are actively *trying.* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now