Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Eruaph.4039]

Sorry I am missing out a lot of quotes and stuff because there was so many posts and I eventually got a little lost after I started skimming...

 

So I think the hard mode is there for about half the bosses now. As far as I am aware other than for completing the achievement there is no extra reward for the hard modes currently, giving less incentive for other players to complete those modes with other players who haven't had the chance yet. So it would be nice if there was a hard mode which gave rewards. In general I like the idea that someone suggested of tiering the rewards like Fractals, so you have a reward for each tier, and you get the rewards from all the lower tiers if you complete the harder one. It would also be good if that was set starting the raid, it's always a bit annoying when some troll decides to activate the challenge mote just as you are about to start the fight when you are with a training group.

 

I would love to see an easy mode. Someone compared to WoW's LFR and would be exhausting on players doing the raids. I don't think you have the same issue in GW2 though because you don't have the same kind of gearing system. LFR is necessary for players to gear up if they are on relatively new characters or if they have not reached the higher tiers. GW2 doesn't have that kind of gearing structure, and with a system like Fractals you don't have to complete all the tiers. An easy mode would be nice for story purposes as well. Currently a raid does require a large amount of coordination, so you almost certainly are on some kind of voice chat. Half the time you miss out on what is being said because people are talking over it and then you have to fiddle around with muting etc. Potentially if you also make the easy mode 5 man content you then have the dungeons that people have been clamouring for for ages without having to create entirely new content.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > >

> > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> >

> > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

>

> You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

 

It will be meaningful. the difficulty of the encounter stays the same as far as mechanics. Only difference will be 5 extra players and no enrage. Once they are familiar with the mechanics, normal will become easier and they will become a productive player in the raiding community.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> However I don't think Anet will create entirely new FX sets. Creating the Envoy was a very long road full of problems.

It was mostly due to transformations. Based on what they said before, the main problems they have when designing new armor is joining and overlaps. They need to make sure that it joins well with other pieces, from all already existing sets, and that it won't overlap with backpacks, weapons, or parts of anatomy (for all races). Obviously, if armor transforms, then this becomes much more difficult (on top of the very transformation part, which probably isn't easy either). Thus, the armor in question should probably posess less moving parts, or at least leave those for things like "added effects" - like lightning tentacles (WvW sublime), orbiting elements that stay well away from the body, or floating mist/glow. So, things that do stand out visually, but don't cause the very problems that slowed down production of Envoy set.

 

Yes, another "transformer" armor is highly unlikely. That doesn't mean they are incapable ot making a different type of legendary quality skin.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > >

> > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > >

> > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> >

> > You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

>

> It will be meaningful. the difficulty of the encounter stays the same as far as mechanics. Only difference will be 5 extra players and no enrage. Once they are familiar with the mechanics, normal will become easier and they will become a productive player in the raiding community.

 

Adding extra players is probably the most meaningful way of doing easy mode, I agree. But keep in mind, the most of the players who are interested in raiding end up training and raiding. Those who would be interested in the easy mode will mostly be content just to clear it and will not seek to improve. There will be those who do, but I believe they would be a minority.

[nia.4725]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > However I don't think Anet will create entirely new FX sets. Creating the Envoy was a very long road full of problems.

> It was mostly due to transformations. Based on what they said before, the main problems they have when designing new armor is joining and overlaps. They need to make sure that it joins well with other pieces, from all already existing sets, and that it won't overlap with backpacks, weapons, or parts of anatomy (for all races). Obviously, if armor transforms, then this becomes much more difficult (on top of the very transformation part, which probably isn't easy either). Thus, the armor in question should probably posess less moving parts, or at least leave those for things like "added effects" - like lightning tentacles (WvW sublime), orbiting elements that stay well away from the body, or floating mist/glow. So, things that do stand out visually, but don't cause the very problems that slowed down production of Envoy set.

>

> Yes, another "transformer" armor is highly unlikely. That doesn't mean they are incapable ot making a different type of legendary quality skin.

>

>

 

Yup, that's what I think about when I try to imagine a new legendary set. Envoy was too ambitious and, even though Anet managed to do it, it still has some issues and players aren't that satisfied with the set. I find Envoy just ugly, the heavy skin is tolerable but the other two sets... Well. As you say, it is better to do something like a set that has some particle effects. I guess they could also do something like making the skins glow and have a special aura when entering combat, and having a softer or no aura when out of combat. "Legendary quality skin" is a very subjective thing, but I guess that it is perceived as that the more shiny and glowing it is.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > >

> > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > >

> > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> >

> > An easy mode would not be created to train people, its to give content to people who are not interested in the rote/wipe/rote/wipe/rote wipe gameplay style in current raids (although normal mode will benefit as some players will migrate naturally). Very different style of instance, targeting very different styles of gameplay (reactive versus memorising patterns and playing the rotation game)

>

> An easymode would not be more or less reactive than normal mode currently.

 

I don't think you understand what reactive play is, its not [follow pattern x] its more like pvp style gameplay where you react to the fight as it develops and so yes easy mode would be more reactive, as there is less tuning/more scope for diverse builds and play and far far far less prescriptive.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > However I don't think Anet will create entirely new FX sets. Creating the Envoy was a very long road full of problems.

> It was mostly due to transformations. Based on what they said before, the main problems they have when designing new armor is joining and overlaps. They need to make sure that it joins well with other pieces, from all already existing sets, and that it won't overlap with backpacks, weapons, or parts of anatomy (for all races). Obviously, if armor transforms, then this becomes much more difficult (on top of the very transformation part, which probably isn't easy either). Thus, the armor in question should probably posess less moving parts, or at least leave those for things like "added effects" - like lightning tentacles (WvW sublime), orbiting elements that stay well away from the body, or floating mist/glow. So, things that do stand out visually, but don't cause the very problems that slowed down production of Envoy set.

>

> Yes, another "transformer" armor is highly unlikely. That doesn't mean they are incapable ot making a different type of legendary quality skin.

>

>

Honestly even after being released last year, the Envoy armor us still buggy to all hell(not collapsing all the way etc.)

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > >

> > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > >

> > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > >

> > > You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

> >

> > It will be meaningful. the difficulty of the encounter stays the same as far as mechanics. Only difference will be 5 extra players and no enrage. Once they are familiar with the mechanics, normal will become easier and they will become a productive player in the raiding community.

>

> Adding extra players is probably the most meaningful way of doing easy mode, I agree. But keep in mind, the most of the players who are interested in raiding end up training and raiding. Those who would be interested in the easy mode will mostly be content just to clear it and will not seek to improve. There will be those who do, but I believe they would be a minority.

 

I like the idea of increasing the squad size as the squad can increase or decrease the difficulty by adding or removing players. This already happens now when squads low man things, it automatically increases the difficulty.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Personally, I disagree that envoy armor is legendary-ish (maybe except the heavy skin). Light and med skins are horrible. It is in no way visually worthy of being called legendary.

 

And still people gatekeep the *hell* out of it.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> I don't think the majority of raiders about about other game modes getting their own FX legendary skin. I, personally, don't mind. What I care about is the Envoy staying where it is right now.

>

> However I don't think Anet will create entirely new FX sets. Creating the Envoy was a very long road full of problems.

 

So, "we don't have a problem with you getting that thing that you're almost certain to never get anyway." Thanks, I appreciate that.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > However I don't think Anet will create entirely new FX sets. Creating the Envoy was a very long road full of problems.

> It was mostly due to transformations. Based on what they said before, the main problems they have when designing new armor is joining and overlaps. They need to make sure that it joins well with other pieces, from all already existing sets, and that it won't overlap with backpacks, weapons, or parts of anatomy (for all races). Obviously, if armor transforms, then this becomes much more difficult (on top of the very transformation part, which probably isn't easy either). Thus, the armor in question should probably posess less moving parts, or at least leave those for things like "added effects" - like lightning tentacles (WvW sublime), orbiting elements that stay well away from the body, or floating mist/glow. So, things that do stand out visually, but don't cause the very problems that slowed down production of Envoy set.

>

> Yes, another "transformer" armor is highly unlikely. That doesn't mean they are incapable ot making a different type of legendary quality skin.

 

Which is fine, so long as those who *do* want transforming armor can get Envoy without having to raid.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> Yup, that's what I think about when I try to imagine a new legendary set. Envoy was too ambitious and, even though Anet managed to do it, it still has some issues and players aren't that satisfied with the set. I find Envoy just ugly, the heavy skin is tolerable but the other two sets... Well. As you say, it is better to do something like a set that has some particle effects. I guess they could also do something like making the skins glow and have a special aura when entering combat, and having a softer or no aura when out of combat. "Legendary quality skin" is a very subjective thing, but I guess that it is perceived as that the more shiny and glowing it is.

 

Yet ugly as they are, we *still* definitely can't let anyone else have them. Don't touch the Shinies!

 

 

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > >

> > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > >

> > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > >

> > > You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

> >

> > It will be meaningful. the difficulty of the encounter stays the same as far as mechanics. Only difference will be 5 extra players and no enrage. Once they are familiar with the mechanics, normal will become easier and they will become a productive player in the raiding community.

>

> Adding extra players is probably the most meaningful way of doing easy mode, I agree. But keep in mind, the most of the players who are interested in raiding end up training and raiding. Those who would be interested in the easy mode will mostly be content just to clear it and will not seek to improve. There will be those who do, but I believe they would be a minority.

 

The ones who really aren't Interested in raiding will at least get their lore/story.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > > >

> > > > You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

> > >

> > > It will be meaningful. the difficulty of the encounter stays the same as far as mechanics. Only difference will be 5 extra players and no enrage. Once they are familiar with the mechanics, normal will become easier and they will become a productive player in the raiding community.

> >

> > Adding extra players is probably the most meaningful way of doing easy mode, I agree. But keep in mind, the most of the players who are interested in raiding end up training and raiding. Those who would be interested in the easy mode will mostly be content just to clear it and will not seek to improve. There will be those who do, but I believe they would be a minority.

>

> The ones who really aren't Interested in raiding will at least get their lore/story.

 

At the very least they get to go in a check things out and it might get them hooked for Normal mode.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > > >

> > > > You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

> > >

> > > It will be meaningful. the difficulty of the encounter stays the same as far as mechanics. Only difference will be 5 extra players and no enrage. Once they are familiar with the mechanics, normal will become easier and they will become a productive player in the raiding community.

> >

> > Adding extra players is probably the most meaningful way of doing easy mode, I agree. But keep in mind, the most of the players who are interested in raiding end up training and raiding. Those who would be interested in the easy mode will mostly be content just to clear it and will not seek to improve. There will be those who do, but I believe they would be a minority.

>

> The ones who really aren't Interested in raiding will at least get their lore/story.

 

Not every non-raider is interested in lore/story either. But don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing against the idea per se. I'm arguing the impact won't be big enough to warrant the dev time *and* that a hypothetical easy mode cannot award the same rewards. That being said, I liked a particular idea about achieving the easy mode which addressed both. So there, as far as I'm concerned, loreseekers could get what they wanted, too. Some of them might even convert to active raiders.

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > I don't think the majority of raiders about about other game modes getting their own FX legendary skin. I, personally, don't mind. What I care about is the Envoy staying where it is right now.

> >

> > However I don't think Anet will create entirely new FX sets. Creating the Envoy was a very long road full of problems.

>

> So, "we don't have a problem with you getting that thing that you're almost certain to never get anyway." Thanks, I appreciate that.

Reading comprehension, Ohoni.

 

> Yet ugly as they are, we *still* definitely can't let anyone else have them. Don't touch the Shinies!

 

This has been discussed a lot of times and we have already given our arguments, Ohoni, don't try to twist things into something of your convenience.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > > > >

> > > > > You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

> > > >

> > > > It will be meaningful. the difficulty of the encounter stays the same as far as mechanics. Only difference will be 5 extra players and no enrage. Once they are familiar with the mechanics, normal will become easier and they will become a productive player in the raiding community.

> > >

> > > Adding extra players is probably the most meaningful way of doing easy mode, I agree. But keep in mind, the most of the players who are interested in raiding end up training and raiding. Those who would be interested in the easy mode will mostly be content just to clear it and will not seek to improve. There will be those who do, but I believe they would be a minority.

> >

> > The ones who really aren't Interested in raiding will at least get their lore/story.

>

> Not every non-raider is interested in lore/story either. But don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing against the idea per se. I'm arguing the impact won't be big enough to warrant the dev time *and* that a hypothetical easy mode cannot award the same rewards. That being said, I liked a particular idea about achieving the easy mode which addressed both. So there, as far as I'm concerned, loreseekers could get what they wanted, too. Some of them might even convert to active raiders.

 

Seems like a no brainer to me and honestly we would probably get a reduction of complaints here in the raid forums.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

> > > > >

> > > > > It will be meaningful. the difficulty of the encounter stays the same as far as mechanics. Only difference will be 5 extra players and no enrage. Once they are familiar with the mechanics, normal will become easier and they will become a productive player in the raiding community.

> > > >

> > > > Adding extra players is probably the most meaningful way of doing easy mode, I agree. But keep in mind, the most of the players who are interested in raiding end up training and raiding. Those who would be interested in the easy mode will mostly be content just to clear it and will not seek to improve. There will be those who do, but I believe they would be a minority.

> > >

> > > The ones who really aren't Interested in raiding will at least get their lore/story.

> >

> > Not every non-raider is interested in lore/story either. But don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing against the idea per se. I'm arguing the impact won't be big enough to warrant the dev time *and* that a hypothetical easy mode cannot award the same rewards. That being said, I liked a particular idea about achieving the easy mode which addressed both. So there, as far as I'm concerned, loreseekers could get what they wanted, too. Some of them might even convert to active raiders.

>

> Seems like a no brainer to me and honestly we would probably get a reduction of complaints here in the raid forums.

 

Well, ultimately it's ANet's decision. When it was first presented as "20-man squads, no rewards", it seemed like a quick job to me. Now it is somewhat expanded. For good reasons, but still it no longer seems as quick. Consider they'd need to implement a new collection, possibly add new currency and/or crafting material as well for it. It can be done, it is still much faster than a full rebalance of every fight, but it will take some designing and implementing nevertheless. I support the idea, but I don't know if they'll go for it.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

I will be ok with the use of the shards so they can at least buy ascended. I would have personally have love this myself when I 1st started. The dps golem isn't that great at real world mechanics unless they stand still and do nothing. Video guides are great but nothing beats that hands on approach. In the end, I dont really care what anet intends to do, I will always enjoy the raid.

[Hume.2876]

WoW had more subscribers back when they had no easy mode raids. They peaked right at the end of the BC and the start of Wrath of the Lich King.. Once they started adding in easy mode raids - they lost players.

 

If you make your game WoW style you lose the sense of elitism the top raiders get. Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.

 

They have tried to do the same things in PvP with the tournaments and the leagues.. Status sells.

 

Remember the goal of an MMO is for your userbase to want to play and to have fun. Sure they could clear more content if you gave them more 'practice' but this would not be more fun experience for the same players. The thrill of new is gone. The Status is minimized. The thrill of 'beating' a boss for the first time is gone as a player. The thrill of even getting to battle said boss is gone. This impacts the bottom line.

 

It's tough for these often very liberal companies to come to grips with this - but you want this kind of elitism/class system in your game. You want the elite players held out as a representative of PvE success. Those unique skins that you CANNOT get via grinding - that's GOOD for the game. Same with some unique gear you can ONLY get from top level PvP. That's a good idea.

 

The ideas in this thread - mostly bad ideas. Even ANET implements them - they will lose money and players will be LESS HAPPY overall. WoW shot themselves in the foot with their egalitarian ideas. It doesn't work in the real world - and it doesn't work in the game.

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> WoW had more subscribers back when they had no easy mode raids. They peaked right at the end of the BC and the start of Wrath of the Lich King.. Once they started adding in easy mode raids - they lost players.

>

> If you make your game WoW style you lose the sense of elitism the top raiders get. Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.

>

> They have tried to do the same things in PvP with the tournaments and the leagues.. Status sells.

>

> Remember the goal of an MMO is for your userbase to want to play and to have fun. Sure they could clear more content if you gave them more 'practice' but this would not be more fun experience for the same players. The thrill of new is gone. The Status is minimized. The thrill of 'beating' a boss for the first time is gone as a player. The thrill of even getting to battle said boss is gone. This impacts the bottom line.

>

> It's tough for these often very liberal companies to come to grips with this - but you want this kind of elitism/class system in your game. You want the elite players held out as a representative of PvE success. Those unique skins that you CANNOT get via grinding - that's GOOD for the game. Same with some unique gear you can ONLY get from top level PvP. That's a good idea.

>

> The ideas in this thread - mostly bad ideas. Even ANET implements them - they will lose money and players will be LESS HAPPY overall. WoW shot themselves in the foot with their egalitarian ideas. It doesn't work in the real world - and it doesn't work in the game.

>

 

Incorrect, at the end of TBC pop peaked at 11 million and peaked at 12.5 in the first quarter of WOTLK, with wotlk continuing to beat highest tbc pop throughout its life (highest in history) More importantly the raiding population EXPLODED in wotlk when they introduced easy mode raids, and it was widely regarded as a massive success for providing content for the main player base because of this. Where it did break down badly is with cata where the widespread criticism was that the raids were too hard and that caused pressure on guilds. I was in a _really_ harcore guild for the 5 years prior to and including the beginning of cata, and I was part of that elite community desperately trying to defend their gewar uniqueness, and as now this was not for the good of the game, this was all about protecting personal interests, which Blizzard saw past eventually.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> Remember the goal of an MMO is for your userbase to want to play and to have fun. Sure they could clear more content if you gave them more 'practice' but this would not be more fun experience for the same players. The thrill of new is gone. The Status is minimized. The thrill of 'beating' a boss for the first time is gone as a player. The thrill of even getting to battle said boss is gone. This impacts the bottom line.

 

I believe that easy mode raids should be added 3-6 months later than the normal mode version. This gives players plenty of time to beat the normal mode before anyone's had a chance at the easy mode. If you come along later, the choice is yours whether you would prefer to do easy mode first or not.

 

>It's tough for these often very liberal companies to come to grips with this - but you want this kind of elitism/class system in your game. You want the elite players held out as a representative of PvE success.

 

Nah, that's just laughable. Nobody cares about your "1337ness."

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> WoW had more subscribers back when they had no easy mode raids. They peaked right at the end of the BC and the start of Wrath of the Lich King.. Once they started adding in easy mode raids - they lost players.

I suggest you look at the dates a bit closer instead of just repeating what you have heard once. You will find that what you claim is far from being accurate.

 

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> If you make your game WoW style you lose the sense of elitism the top raiders get. Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.

That works in raid-centric game, but not in GW2. I seriously doubt a lot of people started to play GW2 due to raids alone or even primarily raids. At best it might have brought some old players back, but those didn't go for gw2 in the first place for raids either. Remember, that gw2 raids are considered to be a joke as far as MMORPGs go. No status to be had there. And that generally GW2 attracted far more casual crowd than other games, and this crowd on average is far less concerned about this kind of status. Having a nice looking gear is far more importnt than where it comes from.

 

> They have tried to do the same things in PvP with the tournaments and the leagues.. Status sells.

And one of the reasons why it failed for GW2 (well, among many other things, SPvP is and was a mess) is that for gw2 community it doesn't sell all that well.

 

> Remember the goal of an MMO is for your userbase to want to play and to have fun. Sure they could clear more content if you gave them more 'practice' but this would not be more fun experience for the same players.

You're assuming they are doing the content already and finding it fun. Easy mode is not (and never was) meant for those people.

 

>The thrill of new is gone. The Status is minimized. The thrill of 'beating' a boss for the first time is gone as a player. The thrill of even getting to battle said boss is gone. This impacts the bottom line.

If your userbase for the most part _doesn't_ play that content, because they _do not_ find it fun, it impacts your bottom line as well.

 

> It's tough for these often very liberal companies to come to grips with this - but you want this kind of elitism/class system in your game. You want the elite players held out as a representative of PvE success. Those unique skins that you CANNOT get via grinding - that's GOOD for the game. Same with some unique gear you can ONLY get from top level PvP. That's a good idea.

Only if people would find that part of the game where they can get it interesting and fun. If they don't, you get an exact opposite effect. If you can't identify with the content, you won't think of those "elite players" as _your_ representatives. They will be "those other people that falsely think they matter" (at best), "those people unfairly favored by devs", or even (at worst) "showcases of everything that's wrong with the game".

 

If you want some players to be held as "representatives" of the game community, they must really _be_ representative of that community. Players that community can really look up to.

 

Basically, you are making a lot of assumptions here because you base your thoughts off a specific group of players. A group that in GW2 happens to be in minority.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Hume.2876" said:

> > WoW had more subscribers back when they had no easy mode raids. They peaked right at the end of the BC and the start of Wrath of the Lich King.. Once they started adding in easy mode raids - they lost players.

> >

> > If you make your game WoW style you lose the sense of elitism the top raiders get. Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.

> >

> > They have tried to do the same things in PvP with the tournaments and the leagues.. Status sells.

> >

> > Remember the goal of an MMO is for your userbase to want to play and to have fun. Sure they could clear more content if you gave them more 'practice' but this would not be more fun experience for the same players. The thrill of new is gone. The Status is minimized. The thrill of 'beating' a boss for the first time is gone as a player. The thrill of even getting to battle said boss is gone. This impacts the bottom line.

> >

> > It's tough for these often very liberal companies to come to grips with this - but you want this kind of elitism/class system in your game. You want the elite players held out as a representative of PvE success. Those unique skins that you CANNOT get via grinding - that's GOOD for the game. Same with some unique gear you can ONLY get from top level PvP. That's a good idea.

> >

> > The ideas in this thread - mostly bad ideas. Even ANET implements them - they will lose money and players will be LESS HAPPY overall. WoW shot themselves in the foot with their egalitarian ideas. It doesn't work in the real world - and it doesn't work in the game.

> >

>

> Incorrect, at the end of TBC pop peaked at 11 million and peaked at 12.5 in the first quarter of WOTLK, with wotlk continuing to beat highest tbc pop throughout its life (highest in history) More importantly the raiding population EXPLODED in wotlk when they introduced easy mode raids, and it was widely regarded as a massive success for providing content for the main player base because of this. Where it did break down badly is with cata where the widespread criticism was that the raids were too hard and that caused pressure on guilds. I was in a _really_ harcore guild for the 5 years prior to and including the beginning of cata, and I was part of that elite community desperately trying to defend their gewar uniqueness, and as now this was not for the good of the game, this was all about protecting personal interests, which Blizzard saw past eventually.

 

He is actually correct.

The thing that most people see as the easy mode and what people in those threads want got introduced late in Cataclysm as LFR, not normal/heroic in WotLK. We have the exact same system WotLK had now in GW2 with challenge motes (minus the overgearing, no vertical progression).

 

Raids in GW2 are closer to normal in WotLK than anything else.

 

Cataclysm was critizied because the heroic dungeons were too hard, not the raids. People were already conditioned to the faceroll dungeons in WotLK.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Hume.2876" said:

> > > WoW had more subscribers back when they had no easy mode raids. They peaked right at the end of the BC and the start of Wrath of the Lich King.. Once they started adding in easy mode raids - they lost players.

> > >

> > > If you make your game WoW style you lose the sense of elitism the top raiders get. Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.

> > >

> > > They have tried to do the same things in PvP with the tournaments and the leagues.. Status sells.

> > >

> > > Remember the goal of an MMO is for your userbase to want to play and to have fun. Sure they could clear more content if you gave them more 'practice' but this would not be more fun experience for the same players. The thrill of new is gone. The Status is minimized. The thrill of 'beating' a boss for the first time is gone as a player. The thrill of even getting to battle said boss is gone. This impacts the bottom line.

> > >

> > > It's tough for these often very liberal companies to come to grips with this - but you want this kind of elitism/class system in your game. You want the elite players held out as a representative of PvE success. Those unique skins that you CANNOT get via grinding - that's GOOD for the game. Same with some unique gear you can ONLY get from top level PvP. That's a good idea.

> > >

> > > The ideas in this thread - mostly bad ideas. Even ANET implements them - they will lose money and players will be LESS HAPPY overall. WoW shot themselves in the foot with their egalitarian ideas. It doesn't work in the real world - and it doesn't work in the game.

> > >

> >

> > Incorrect, at the end of TBC pop peaked at 11 million and peaked at 12.5 in the first quarter of WOTLK, with wotlk continuing to beat highest tbc pop throughout its life (highest in history) More importantly the raiding population EXPLODED in wotlk when they introduced easy mode raids, and it was widely regarded as a massive success for providing content for the main player base because of this. Where it did break down badly is with cata where the widespread criticism was that the raids were too hard and that caused pressure on guilds. I was in a _really_ harcore guild for the 5 years prior to and including the beginning of cata, and I was part of that elite community desperately trying to defend their gewar uniqueness, and as now this was not for the good of the game, this was all about protecting personal interests, which Blizzard saw past eventually.

>

> He is actually correct.

> The thing that most people see as the easy mode and what people in those threads want got introduced late in Cataclysm as LFR, not normal/heroic in WotLK. We have the exact same system WotLK had now in GW2 with challenge motes (minus the overgearing, no vertical progression).

>

> Raids in GW2 are closer to normal in WotLK than anything else.

>

> Cataclysm was critizied because the heroic dungeons were too hard, not the raids. People were already conditioned to the faceroll dungeons in WotLK.

 

nop im correct i was looking at the reports last night (or did you mean that?). wotlk normal is not the same as current raids in GW2, for example my guild 1 shotted the place in normal as soon as we got a raid group together after a couple weeks, and got the mount for doing all 25 heroic achievements a couple weeks later. later on pugs were playing aoe builds and aoe'd their way through the entire place and ignored many of the boss mechanics. I don't even think it should be that easy, but somewhere in the middle would be nice.

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> He is actually correct.

> The thing that most people see as the easy mode and what people in those threads want got introduced late in Cataclysm as LFR, not normal/heroic in WotLK. We have the exact same system WotLK had now in GW2 with challenge motes (minus the overgearing, no vertical progression).

>

> Raids in GW2 are closer to normal in WotLK than anything else.

>

> Cataclysm was critizied because the heroic dungeons were too hard, not the raids. People were already conditioned to the faceroll dungeons in WotLK.

 

As someone who actually was playing during WotLK to experience the disaster of that endgame trying to reach too many people, and then hearing from my former raidmates describe the horrors LFR brought after Wrath, I can confirm this. Trial of the Crusader was the worst raid tier EVER put into any MMO.

 

The only interesting thing, pointed out here, is that Cataclysm's Heroic Dungeons were actually some of the hardest dungeons put out at the time, but the raid quality and raid community suffered heavy losses because of the systems.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Hume.2876" said:

> > > > WoW had more subscribers back when they had no easy mode raids. They peaked right at the end of the BC and the start of Wrath of the Lich King.. Once they started adding in easy mode raids - they lost players.

> > > >

> > > > If you make your game WoW style you lose the sense of elitism the top raiders get. Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.

> > > >

> > > > They have tried to do the same things in PvP with the tournaments and the leagues.. Status sells.

> > > >

> > > > Remember the goal of an MMO is for your userbase to want to play and to have fun. Sure they could clear more content if you gave them more 'practice' but this would not be more fun experience for the same players. The thrill of new is gone. The Status is minimized. The thrill of 'beating' a boss for the first time is gone as a player. The thrill of even getting to battle said boss is gone. This impacts the bottom line.

> > > >

> > > > It's tough for these often very liberal companies to come to grips with this - but you want this kind of elitism/class system in your game. You want the elite players held out as a representative of PvE success. Those unique skins that you CANNOT get via grinding - that's GOOD for the game. Same with some unique gear you can ONLY get from top level PvP. That's a good idea.

> > > >

> > > > The ideas in this thread - mostly bad ideas. Even ANET implements them - they will lose money and players will be LESS HAPPY overall. WoW shot themselves in the foot with their egalitarian ideas. It doesn't work in the real world - and it doesn't work in the game.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Incorrect, at the end of TBC pop peaked at 11 million and peaked at 12.5 in the first quarter of WOTLK, with wotlk continuing to beat highest tbc pop throughout its life (highest in history) More importantly the raiding population EXPLODED in wotlk when they introduced easy mode raids, and it was widely regarded as a massive success for providing content for the main player base because of this. Where it did break down badly is with cata where the widespread criticism was that the raids were too hard and that caused pressure on guilds. I was in a _really_ harcore guild for the 5 years prior to and including the beginning of cata, and I was part of that elite community desperately trying to defend their gewar uniqueness, and as now this was not for the good of the game, this was all about protecting personal interests, which Blizzard saw past eventually.

> >

> > He is actually correct.

> > The thing that most people see as the easy mode and what people in those threads want got introduced late in Cataclysm as LFR, not normal/heroic in WotLK. We have the exact same system WotLK had now in GW2 with challenge motes (minus the overgearing, no vertical progression).

> >

> > Raids in GW2 are closer to normal in WotLK than anything else.

> >

> > Cataclysm was critizied because the heroic dungeons were too hard, not the raids. People were already conditioned to the faceroll dungeons in WotLK.

>

> nop im correct i was looking at the reports last night (or did you mean that?). wotlk normal is not the same as current raids in GW2, for example my guild 1 shotted the place in normal as soon as we got a raid group together after a couple weeks, and got the mount for doing all 25 heroic achievements a couple weeks later. later on pugs were playing aoe builds and aoe'd their way through the entire place and ignored many of the boss mechanics. I don't even think it should be that easy, but somewhere in the middle would be nice.

 

Which raid and how long after the raid was released? T7 raids were a joke and got cleared not even 24h after release (while people still needed to level). Those a not a reference for anything.

[Dreddo.9865]

> @"Hume.2876" said:

>Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.

With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

 

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)