Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Casual gameplay is in general not likely to make for an interesting streaming. Low viewership numbers for that content doesn't mean that people aren't interested in it however. Merely that you'd need to search for those people elsewhere.

>

 

True, low viewership doesn't mean people aren't interested in that kind of content, however, the lack of streaming interest in that content means If you do want to advertise your game on streams (who wouldn't? it's free advertisement), you need appropriate content that looks good on streams.

[Chris McSwag.4683]

If people spent 10% of the time they spend whining about raids being too hard on training instead, they would be able to do raids just fine.

[Hume.2876]

Considering that people interested in more casual gameplay do not generally watch streams, it's completely irelevant. Streamers won't get those people interested in the game. You'd need other media and types of advertising for that.

 

Yup like people running around in fancy skins - and casual players say 'gosh where did you get that.' Again YOU are the guys saying the current system doesn't work - where is the proof that caving and creating an easy mode is going to bring players to the game? All the available evidence points in the OPPOSITE direction.

 

It's well known in the game designer world that players follow the "path of least resistance" - so if Arenanet implemented ez mode raids they would indeed be very 'popular' because of the rewards. But once completed the hard core would quit the raids - or worse quit the game. This is THE REASON for difficulty gating. It's to STRETCH OUT content. What you are advocating for on threads like this is for Arenanet to STOP stretching out content - or to stretch out content only via GRIND and not DIFFICULTY.

This is a horrible idea.

 

And please stop imagining that the the people who want "challenge" would just play the difficult content. They would not - that's why you use carrots. If you had a simple red button that you just pushed in a room and gave everyone raid "loot" everyone would go push that button INSTEAD of doing the raid. Arenanet should concentrate on elevating the player base - not sucking down to it.

 

It's like Squaw Valley (a top ski resort) deciding to flatten out all its black diamonds and turn them to greens/blues because ya know most people ski blues - and a bunch of skiers really always wanted to ski those double black diamonds. They would be INSANE to do that. Instead what they do is offer lessons from good skiers - hoping they "get into" skiing such that one day they can ski elegantly down the double black diamonds. Most of course will never do so - but that's fine. Since you make money off the skiers and the lessons.

 

Likewise in MMO's you have exclusive raids and 'leagues' in PvP with the hopes that people will 'get into it' and play your game at their highest possible levels. That's what you want - lots of people playing your game for a long time.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Let's make a proper comparison then. How many people watch -gameplay- of none-elite content?

 

I'm not sure what you would consider to be "qualifying material," so maybe you're best suited to answering your own question there. Remember though, the point of this line of discussion is "how much do video views influence new player acquisition," so limiting things to "gameplay videos" isn't necessarily an important distinction. A player that comes to a lore video or even a balance patch video and becomes interested enough to play is worth as much as a customer that comes to a PvP or raid stream. In any case, we know that the *overall* viewership connected to more casual-oriented content is higher than the more "elite" oriented content. How much that translates into new customers, we have absolutely no data either way.

 

>True, low viewership doesn't mean people aren't interested in that kind of content, however, the lack of streaming interest in that content means If you do want to advertise your game on streams (who wouldn't? it's free advertisement), you need appropriate content that looks good on streams.

 

But again, we've determined that the number of viewers for those streams is insignificantly small. Yes, "free advertising" is good, in theory, but the point is that it's not worth *spending,* in the form of developer resources to *encourage* that sort of "free advertising." It's not a sound use of resources.

 

> @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> If people spent 10% of the time they spend whining about raids being too hard on training instead, they would be able to do raids just fine.

 

Yes, but those who spend time whining about raids do not have any interest in training, so that's a moot point.

 

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> Yup like people running around in fancy skins - and casual players say 'gosh where did you get that.'

 

People asking where someone got a piece of gear does not mean "mission accomplished." Players being *interested* in a given piece of gear is meaningless if the answer is "in content that you will never complete." This is why there needs to be a meaningful path for players of *all* types to work towards getting the Envoy armor.

 

>It's well known in the game designer world that players follow the "path of least resistance" - so if Arenanet implemented ez mode raids they would indeed be very 'popular' because of the rewards. But once completed the hard core would quit the raids - or worse quit the game.

 

But the easy mode would take longer than the hard mode, so even if this assumption proved true, it would keep players in the game longer than the current model would.

 

 

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > I also think the poll will always point more towards "we need an easy mode" because the standard mindset generally is "I cant do this and/or I want that reward".

>

> Keep in mind the context of this poll though, it's taking place not only on the forums (which would tend to skew towards raiders), but also on the *raid* forums (which. . . do I need to spell that one out?), and yet even with that working against it, still has a majority in favor of having easy mode options. I mean, small sample size, sure, but I wouldn't lay any bets on "the average players don't want an easy mode."

>

Reading skills are required. Youre being argumentative and defensive, whilst you obviously didnt read or think. Because I basically said the standard minset, meaning the average player, will always pick a way that is easier or gives them the reward. Meaning.. the poll will always show a pro easymode side.

The discussion over numbers and representation is pointless either way. Because no matter how many people want reward x or easier mode Y that will never be a reason to change the game, as long as the majority of the game is already aimed towards easy, and has the majority of the rewards.

 

As for legendary grind your face off armor.... the average player isnt interested in that either. This whole make easy mode which players can grind is simply not making the game better. It just is another carrot on a stick, it doesnt provide meaningful content.

[Jahroots.6791]

> @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> If people spent 10% of the time they spend whining about raids being too hard on training instead, they would be able to do raids just fine.

 

If getting into training groups was as easy as making forum posts, this topic probably wouldn't exist.

[Hume.2876]

 

 

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > Let's make a proper comparison then. How many people watch -gameplay- of none-elite content?

>

> I'm not sure what you would consider to be "qualifying material," so maybe you're best suited to answering your own question there. Remember though, the point of this line of discussion is "how much do video views influence new player acquisition," so limiting things to "gameplay videos" isn't necessarily an important distinction. A player that comes to a lore video or even a balance patch video and becomes interested enough to play is worth as much as a customer that comes to a PvP or raid stream. In any case, we know that the *overall* viewership connected to more casual-oriented content is higher than the more "elite" oriented content. How much that translates into new customers, we have absolutely no data either way.

>

> >True, low viewership doesn't mean people aren't interested in that kind of content, however, the lack of streaming interest in that content means If you do want to advertise your game on streams (who wouldn't? it's free advertisement), you need appropriate content that looks good on streams.

>

> But again, we've determined that the number of viewers for those streams is insignificantly small. Yes, "free advertising" is good, in theory, but the point is that it's not worth *spending,* in the form of developer resources to *encourage* that sort of "free advertising." It's not a sound use of resources.

>

> > @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> > If people spent 10% of the time they spend whining about raids being too hard on training instead, they would be able to do raids just fine.

>

> Yes, but those who spend time whining about raids do not have any interest in training, so that's a moot point.

>

> > @"Hume.2876" said:

> > Yup like people running around in fancy skins - and casual players say 'gosh where did you get that.'

>

> People asking where someone got a piece of gear does not mean "mission accomplished." Players being *interested* in a given piece of gear is meaningless if the answer is "in content that you will never complete." This is why there needs to be a meaningful path for players of *all* types to work towards getting the Envoy armor.

>

 

You don't get it. This is not a 'problem' its a FEATURE. it's trivial for the designers to give every single item to every single player and gate it against say logging in. Just log in and eventually you get all the loot. But why? You want some gear and content gated by difficulty. That's why raiding was introduced - to give the people that wanted challenging PvE content exclusive content WITH exclusive rewards.

 

> >It's well known in the game designer world that players follow the "path of least resistance" - so if Arenanet implemented ez mode raids they would indeed be very 'popular' because of the rewards. But once completed the hard core would quit the raids - or worse quit the game.

>

> But the easy mode would take longer than the hard mode, so even if this assumption proved true, it would keep players in the game longer than the current model would.

>

>

 

People would pick the easier path - sure. But when they finished it - if the experience wasn't good they would quit. It's like the skiing analogy. Get some expert skiers up to some rinky dink mountain - and they ski that one day - sure. But they don't come back. They don't publish videos. They don't treat it like a hobby. They quit and find an MMO with the kind of content THEY WANT - aka difficulty gated content.

 

group of people that would leave if they don't get ez mode raids < groups of people who would leave if they had ez mode raids. This is what happened to Blizzard - and that's what would happen here. And it would be particularly bad here - because as I said you lose the ambassadors - as well as the best and the brightest of the PvE players.

 

Honestly the group of people that are leaving if they don't get ez more raids is around zero.. Don't even pretend that there isn't some alternate grind they could be doing..

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

Well the longer this topic keeps going on, the more convinced I am that Raids were a bad addition to this game, and the only thing worse then keeping a bad idea like Raids alive, is trying to make them into _content for everyone_.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> Reading skills are required. Youre being argumentative and defensive, whilst you obviously didnt read or think. Because I basically said the standard minset, meaning the average player, will always pick a way that is easier or gives them the reward. Meaning.. the poll will always show a pro easymode side.

 

So you're saying that even players who enjoy raiding would prefer to have easier raids?

 

Well ok then, bring on the easier raids!

 

>The discussion over numbers and representation is pointless either way. Because no matter how many people want reward x or easier mode Y that will never be a reason to change the game, as long as the majority of the game is already aimed towards easy, and has the majority of the rewards.

 

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

>As for legendary grind your face off armor.... the average player isnt interested in that either. This whole make easy mode which players can grind is simply not making the game better. It just is another carrot on a stick, it doesnt provide meaningful content.

 

So you're saying. . . *remove* raids from the game?

 

> @"Hume.2876" said:

>You don't get it. This is not a 'problem' its a FEATURE. it's trivial for the designers to give every single item to every single player and gate it against say logging in. Just log in and eventually you get all the loot. But why? You want some gear and content gated by difficulty. That's why raiding was introduced - to give the people that wanted challenging PvE content exclusive content WITH exclusive rewards.

 

Nobody's asking them to "give" players anything, this is about providing a method of *earning* the rewards that is more within the average player's wheelhouse. There's no reason for anything to be "gated" by difficulty. Players that enjoy high difficulty content should play high difficulty content, but it's not for everyone, and players that do not enjoy high difficulty content should not be missing out on anything because of that.

 

>People would pick the easier path - sure. But when they finished it - if the experience wasn't good they would quit.

 

But *again,* **the easy mode would take longer to complete,** so even if your theory were correct, that they would just complete the task and then quit, it would take longer for that cycle to complete if they were playing easy mode than it would if they were doing it the current way.

 

If you mean that the existence of easy mode would cause the hardcore difficulty people to quit, well that's fine, the game did just fine without them.

 

>group of people that would leave if they don't get ez mode raids < groups of people who would leave if they had ez mode raids.

 

Lol, no.

 

>This is what happened to Blizzard - and that's what would happen here. And it would be particularly bad here - because as I said you lose the ambassadors - as well as the best and the brightest of the PvE players.

 

Lolol, no. Nobody cares about these "best and brightest," they are not special snowflakes deserving special attention, they are just players, the same as everyone else. They are not "ambassadors" to the game, most of the ones I've interacted with are jerks, "my way or the highway, git gud" types, more likely to drive people away from the community than to attract anyone. and Blizzard's doing VERY well for themselves on a fairly casual audience. Yes, WoW is no longer at its peak, but it's still doing better than anyone else, and that's after over ten years, which is a phenomenal run for a single game. There's no reason to believe that they would be in a *better* place today if not for all the "filthy casuals."

 

>Honestly the group of people that are leaving if they don't get ez more raids is around zero.. Don't even pretend that there isn't some alternate grind they could be doing..

 

This isn't a subscription game. Players leaving is not the only threat to their bottom line. They also want player *engagement* to be up, so that players spend money on the gem store. Unhappy players are less likely to spend. The number of raiders who would quit the game due to an easy mode are not large enough for anyone to even notice they're missing.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > Reading skills are required. Youre being argumentative and defensive, whilst you obviously didnt read or think. Because I basically said the standard minset, meaning the average player, will always pick a way that is easier or gives them the reward. Meaning.. the poll will always show a pro easymode side.

>

> So you're saying that even players who enjoy raiding would prefer to have easier raids?

>

> Well ok then, bring on the easier raids!

>

> >The discussion over numbers and representation is pointless either way. Because no matter how many people want reward x or easier mode Y that will never be a reason to change the game, as long as the majority of the game is already aimed towards easy, and has the majority of the rewards.

>

> That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

>

> >As for legendary grind your face off armor.... the average player isnt interested in that either. This whole make easy mode which players can grind is simply not making the game better. It just is another carrot on a stick, it doesnt provide meaningful content.

>

> So you're saying. . . *remove* raids from the game?

 

I guess this is how it feels like when watching someone play "connect the dots" with a blindfold.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> Because I basically said the standard minset, meaning the average player, will always pick a way that is easier or gives them the reward.

That's very simplified and incomplete answer. The average player will generally pick the option that offers him the best rewards per time played, but that's often modified by how they like the content in question (players will often prefer less effective methods in a content they like to more effective ones in a content they hate). Notice, that it doesn't mean the _easiest_ way (unless difficulty is one of the things said person dislikes). Quite often, it will mean harder but faster path (assuming of course it's not hard enough to prevent player from using it).

 

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> Meaning.. the poll will always show a pro easymode side.

Untrue, for the reasons mentioned above. The only people that would prefer easy mode to normal would be those that wouldn't be able to play normal, or those that strongly dislike it.

 

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> As for legendary grind your face off armor.... the average player isnt interested in that either. This whole make easy mode which players can grind is simply not making the game better. It just is another carrot on a stick, it doesnt provide meaningful content.

Well, it's neither better nor worse than envoy, which is also nothing more than a carrot on a stick. The only difference lies in whom the carrot is meant to move.

 

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> People would pick the easier path - sure. But when they finished it - if the experience wasn't good they would quit. It's like the skiing analogy. Get some expert skiers up to some rinky dink mountain - and they ski that one day - sure. But they don't come back. They don't publish videos. They don't treat it like a hobby. They quit and find an MMO with the kind of content THEY WANT - aka difficulty gated content.

Sure, the "experts" would not be interested in the slope for novices. But the existence of that slope would _not_ stop them using the one meant for them on the same mountain. And they'd not start claiming that the slope for novices shouldn't exist, because it makes their own achievements meaningless.

 

 

 

[Hume.2876]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > Reading skills are required. Youre being argumentative and defensive, whilst you obviously didnt read or think. Because I basically said the standard minset, meaning the average player, will always pick a way that is easier or gives them the reward. Meaning.. the poll will always show a pro easymode side.

>

> So you're saying that even players who enjoy raiding would prefer to have easier raids?

>

> Well ok then, bring on the easier raids!

>

> >The discussion over numbers and representation is pointless either way. Because no matter how many people want reward x or easier mode Y that will never be a reason to change the game, as long as the majority of the game is already aimed towards easy, and has the majority of the rewards.

>

> That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

>

> >As for legendary grind your face off armor.... the average player isnt interested in that either. This whole make easy mode which players can grind is simply not making the game better. It just is another carrot on a stick, it doesnt provide meaningful content.

>

> So you're saying. . . *remove* raids from the game?

>

> > @"Hume.2876" said:

> >You don't get it. This is not a 'problem' its a FEATURE. it's trivial for the designers to give every single item to every single player and gate it against say logging in. Just log in and eventually you get all the loot. But why? You want some gear and content gated by difficulty. That's why raiding was introduced - to give the people that wanted challenging PvE content exclusive content WITH exclusive rewards.

>

> Nobody's asking them to "give" players anything, this is about providing a method of *earning* the rewards that is more within the average player's wheelhouse. There's no reason for anything to be "gated" by difficulty. Players that enjoy high difficulty content should play high difficulty content, but it's not for everyone, and players that do not enjoy high difficulty content should not be missing out on anything because of that.

>

> >People would pick the easier path - sure. But when they finished it - if the experience wasn't good they would quit.

>

> But *again,* **the easy mode would take longer to complete,** so even if your theory were correct, that they would just complete the task and then quit, it would take longer for that cycle to complete if they were playing easy mode than it would if they were doing it the current way.

>

> If you mean that the existence of easy mode would cause the hardcore difficulty people to quit, well that's fine, the game did just fine without them.

>

> >group of people that would leave if they don't get ez mode raids < groups of people who would leave if they had ez mode raids.

>

> Lol, no.

>

> >This is what happened to Blizzard - and that's what would happen here. And it would be particularly bad here - because as I said you lose the ambassadors - as well as the best and the brightest of the PvE players.

>

> Lolol, no. Nobody cares about these "best and brightest," they are not special snowflakes deserving special attention, they are just players, the same as everyone else. They are not "ambassadors" to the game, most of the ones I've interacted with are jerks, "my way or the highway, git gud" types, more likely to drive people away from the community than to attract anyone. and Blizzard's doing VERY well for themselves on a fairly casual audience. Yes, WoW is no longer at its peak, but it's still doing better than anyone else, and that's after over ten years, which is a phenomenal run for a single game. There's no reason to believe that they would be in a *better* place today if not for all the "filthy casuals."

 

Of course they do. Almost every solid guild in all the servers has someone who is into either high level PvE (raids) high level PvP or serious WvW. These guys are the guild leaders, officers and commanders. And they absolutely make the game more fun. Make the game grind only - and THESE PLAYERS WILL LEAVE. Grinding is not enough to keep the better players interested. That's simply how it is. The best players want challenging content.

 

I have never even HEARD of any 'grinding guild' in map chat...

>

> >Honestly the group of people that are leaving if they don't get ez more raids is around zero.. Don't even pretend that there isn't some alternate grind they could be doing..

>

> This isn't a subscription game. Players leaving is not the only threat to their bottom line. They also want player *engagement* to be up, so that players spend money on the gem store. Unhappy players are less likely to spend. The number of raiders who would quit the game due to an easy mode are not large enough for anyone to even notice they're missing.

 

Oh yeah no one is going to notice if all their guild leaders and officers leave! Absolutely dude - can't argue with that logic. LMAO. Arenanet has the data - they wanted to add something for the more talented PvE player. They did so.

 

Again - and you keep avoiding this - what do they gain from adding something for the guy who wants to grind raid gear? How is this useful use of development time. Personally I'd spend it on PvP/WvW and Fractals.. Seems smarter then making sure the people that can't grind for raid skins are happy..

 

 

 

 

[Hume.2876]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > Because I basically said the standard minset, meaning the average player, will always pick a way that is easier or gives them the reward.

> That's very simplified and incomplete answer. The average player will generally pick the option that offers him the best rewards per time played, but that's often modified by how they like the content in question (players will often prefer less effective methods in a content they like to more effective ones in a content they hate). Notice, that it doesn't mean the _easiest_ way (unless difficulty is one of the things said person dislikes). Quite often, it will mean harder but faster path (assuming of course it's not hard enough to prevent player from using it).

>

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > Meaning.. the poll will always show a pro easymode side.

> Untrue, for the reasons mentioned above. The only people that would prefer easy mode to normal would be those that wouldn't be able to play normal, or those that strongly dislike it.

>

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > As for legendary grind your face off armor.... the average player isnt interested in that either. This whole make easy mode which players can grind is simply not making the game better. It just is another carrot on a stick, it doesnt provide meaningful content.

> Well, it's neither better nor worse than envoy, which is also nothing more than a carrot on a stick. The only difference lies in whom the carrot is meant to move.

>

> > @"Hume.2876" said:

> > People would pick the easier path - sure. But when they finished it - if the experience wasn't good they would quit. It's like the skiing analogy. Get some expert skiers up to some rinky dink mountain - and they ski that one day - sure. But they don't come back. They don't publish videos. They don't treat it like a hobby. They quit and find an MMO with the kind of content THEY WANT - aka difficulty gated content.

> Sure, the "experts" would not be interested in the slope for novices. But the existence of that slope would _not_ stop them using the one meant for them on the same mountain. And they'd not start claiming that the slope for novices shouldn't exist, because it makes their own achievements meaningless.

 

If the 'advanced' slope was EXACTLY the same as the 'easy' slope but say 3% steeper - they would probably stop skiing there. Again its not that 'easy' mode makes things worthless - it just makes it BORING. What happens and this we know this empirically is that the 'advanced' players will run ALL the content so they end up running the easy mode, regular mode and hard mode. And then they shoot their brains out and quit.

 

Different difficulty modes is a neat trick for single player games. But the designers know most players are just going to play it through once (On average). Come on tell the truth does the 'difficulty' modes in Fractals feel like "unique' content to you? Wouldn't you rather have 100 different fractals instead of repeating the same 18?

 

I'd rather have that EVEN IF I NEVER SEE FRACTAL 100. I think every player is like that. Exclusive content is more fun. Repeated content is boring. Stop advocating for boring just so you can get your set of pixels.. its dumb. It's a stupid argument. It's been proven it does not work.

>

>

>

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> Of course they do. Almost every solid guild in all the servers has someone who is into either high level PvE (raids) high level PvP or serious WvW. These guys are the guild leaders, officers and commanders. And they absolutely make the game more fun. Make the game grind only - and THESE PLAYERS WILL LEAVE. Grinding is not enough to keep the better players interested. That's simply how it is. The best players want challenging content.

 

Oh give it up, none of the guild leaders, officers, or commanders that make the game more fun for those around them, would leave, most would welcome the chance to play with their less skilled and more casual guild mates, the only ones that would leave the game over this are not the ones that make the game better, quite the opposite actually.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> Of course they do. Almost every solid guild in all the servers has someone who is into either high level PvE (raids) high level PvP or serious WvW. These guys are the guild leaders, officers and commanders.

 

Nonsense. The best guild leader I've ever had was frustrated with the raids within the first week and gave up completely. She disappeared a month or two after that and nobody knows what happened, but she wasn't a good guild leader because she was "leet," she was a good guild leader because she *cared* about the guild and its members, kept in touch with everyone, encouraged them to join up in group events, things like that. The best guild leaders are *Social,* not Achievers.

 

>Make the game grind only - and THESE PLAYERS WILL LEAVE. Grinding is not enough to keep the better players interested. That's simply how it is. The best players want challenging content.

 

Again though, **nobody is talking about making the game grind only.**

 

The existing raids would still be there and function exactly like they do. Players who enjoy that would continue to play them. The easy mode would only be for those that do not view the normal raids as a viable path forward. It adds NEW options to players who have NO options right now, it does not REMOVE *any* options.

 

>Different difficulty modes is a neat trick for single player games. But the designers know most players are just going to play it through once (On average). Come on tell the truth does the 'difficulty' modes in Fractals feel like "unique' content to you? Wouldn't you rather have 100 different fractals instead of repeating the same 18?

 

I think most players would prefer 100 unique encounters to variations on 18, *but* 100 unique encounters is unfeasible from a development standpoint, so that isn't on the table. The actual question is "would you prefer to have 100 maps that are variations on 18 core concepts, OR *just* 18 maps?" I think most would agree that the variations add at least a little difference, a little flavor to the encounters.

 

Likewise in this case, while there have been plenty of arguments about exactly how much time and effort an easy mode would take, there is **absolutely no question whatsoever** that each easy mode encounters would take much less time to produce than each of the original encounters, since it would reuse most of the materials involved.

 

Besides, to a player who already does the normal mode stuff, sure, having easy mode versions doesn't add much for them. Too bad. But to a player who would NEVER do the current normal mode raids, that content basically *does not exist* to them, it isn't even part of the game to them. If an easy mode version was added that they could play and enjoy, that is *totally new content* from their perspective, and produced at a fraction of the cost of producing an equivalent amount of completely original content.

 

>Repeated content is boring. Stop advocating for boring just so you can get your set of pixels.

 

And yet you're arguing in *favor* of raids, content that it *meant* to be played dozens, if not hundreds of times per encounter. . .

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> What happens and this we know this empirically is that the 'advanced' players will run ALL the content so they end up running the easy mode, regular mode and hard mode. And then they shoot their brains out and quit.

Like it happens with fractals?

...oh, wait.

 

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> Different difficulty modes is a neat trick for single player games. But the designers know most players are just going to play it through once (On average). Come on tell the truth does the 'difficulty' modes in Fractals feel like "unique' content to you? Wouldn't you rather have 100 different fractals instead of repeating the same 18?

As i said, those that can run the higher difficulty (t4's in this case) with no problem have no need of lower difficulties. Especially when they get no additional rewards out of it. This content is not for them, so obviously they would gladly exchange it for more of the content for them. Although even many of those that would make that decision now _were_ glad for lower difficulty tiers when they were climbing up. This doesn't mean lower difficulties are meaningless.

 

The whole idea behind easy mode however is not, and never was, about supplying more "unique content" for raiders, so it's obvious if you judge them according to that purpose, they'd fail. Just like current raids would fail if you judged them according to providing more unique and fun content to _casual_ players.

 

And the thing you described about lower tiers making players quit? That's actually _not_ what has been happening in this game. Fractals prove you wrong on that one.

 

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> I think every player is like that.

Obviously, you think wrong. Or we would never have that conversation in the first place.

 

> @"Hume.2876" said:

> Repeated content is boring.

Raids are a repeated content as well, just for a different group of players. Let's be honest, most of the current raiders do have most of the raid encounters on farm mode and are doing them on autopilot.

 

Besides, is there a real difference between doing the encounter 10 times on easy and 40 on normal, and doing it 50 times on normal? Because if there is, i don't see it.

 

 

[nia.4725]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Like it happens with fractals?

> ...oh, wait.

 

I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

 

So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Like it happens with fractals?

> > ...oh, wait.

>

> I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

>

> So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

>

>

 

If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

 

If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

[nia.4725]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > Like it happens with fractals?

> > > ...oh, wait.

> >

> > I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

> >

> > So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

> >

> >

>

> If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

>

> If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

 

I don't think many normal mode raiders will go play easy mode and forget about normal mode. Because easy mode could give the same rewards, yeah, but in less quantity. So, if I can do normal mode and get my shinies in 10 weeks, why would I go to easy mode if that one is going to give me mmy shinies in 20 weeks? It doesn't make sense. Some people who don't like raids at all could do that, ofc, because they would care more about not playing normal mode than they care about getting the shinies quickly, but those would be a tiny minority. Players are impatient, they want their things quick and fast.

 

And also, I think, easy mode would end up having a bad or at least inferior reputation so I don't think normal mode raiders would want to go into that "inferior", "braindead", "full of noobs" game mode. I'm not saying that easy mode would be full of noobs, inferior or braindead, I'm just saying how I think the raiding community would react about easy mode. Just predicting things.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Raids are a repeated content as well, just for a different group of players. Let's be honest, most of the current raiders do have most of the raid encounters on farm mode and are doing them on autopilot.

 

It's not the same thing. Raid encounters still require some focus. Messing up on a raid boss isn't the same as messing up a world boss, or a dungeon boss, or a low-tier fractal. Recovery is harder, and failing to recover incurs a time penalty, simply because the raid bosses take non-trivial time to kill for everyone except the absolute top teams. And that makes a difference.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> So, if I can do normal mode and get my shinies in 10 weeks, why would I go to easy mode if that one is going to give me mmy shinies in 20 weeks? It doesn't make sense.

 

Because if you can reliably finish normal mode with 10 players, it would be much easier to do easy mode with 7 or lower, meaning you will have to find less players to play the easy mode. Remember Citadel of Flame? Although running only path 1 had 1/3 of the rewards many were only running that and not going for a full clear, eventually path 2 was also added to the easy rotation. But Path 3 was almost never part of a full run. Not going for full rewards because it's much easier to go for the partial ones, a previous experience does exist and clearly shows that when having to choose between full rewards or 1/3 of the rewards for a fraction of the time/effort, many choose the second one. Of course if you are on a pro static group of 10 players that already do full Raid clear probably not see any difference if an easy mode is added.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

>I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase.

 

They wouldn't need to fragment it remotely as much as Fractals do, we're talking two total tiers, maybe three if necessary. On top of that, it wouldn't primarily be fragmenting the existing playerbase (since current players would have no real need to play easy mode), but more *adding on* to the existing playerbase by bringing in players who do not and will not raid under the current offerings.

 

One other important consideration is that Fractals reset daily, so at any given time players could be all over the place. Raids reset weekly, so players *could* clear all they wanted of one and then the other if they were serious about doing so (though, again, I don't see the point). It might even be possible (depending on their set-ups) to put easy mode and hard mode on different lockout days, like one could reset on Friday and the other on Tuesday or something, so that "first time rushes" would happen on different days.

 

> Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people.

 

Somewhat true, although I'm sure there would be people, especially in guilds, that would "slum it" to train people. On the bright side, experienced players wouldn't be needed, since minimal skill and training would be needed to clear the easy mode versions. Just a few people watching a video or reading a guide should be plenty.

 

>Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

 

True, but currently "easy mode players" don't even *have* an option, so "less rewards" is better than nothing. Whether they advance or not is up to their own player preferences, some would, others wouldn't.

 

>So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure.

 

I think they would get new players at a much higher rate than normal mode currently does. The reason is the lower barrier of entry. These might not be "hardcore raiders" that are going to show up every week on reset and do a full clear, but they will be more casual players that will show up occasionally and do a clear or two, a lot more of them so on average it adds up. They could even add it to the Daily rotations, every few days "do a raid" would be an option, and either easy or hard could count for it, potentially. I don't think that would be fair in their current state, but with an easy mode option, it would be more viable.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode.

 

Even if the completion times would be roughly equal and the reward volumes far less? You would rather do Vale Guardian for 1/3 the reward than do the normal version for the full reward?

 

Why are you arguing *against* easy modes if you hate normal mode so much that you'd cut your salary by two thirds just to avoid it?

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> I don't think many normal mode raiders will go play easy mode and forget about normal mode. Because easy mode could give the same rewards, yeah, but in less quantity. So, if I can do normal mode and get my shinies in 10 weeks, why would I go to easy mode if that one is going to give me mmy shinies in 20 weeks? It doesn't make sense. Some people who don't like raids at all could do that, ofc, because they would care more about not playing normal mode than they care about getting the shinies quickly, but those would be a tiny minority. Players are impatient, they want their things quick and fast.

>

> And also, I think, easy mode would end up having a bad or at least inferior reputation so I don't think normal mode raiders would want to go into that "inferior", "braindead", "full of noobs" game mode. I'm not saying that easy mode would be full of noobs, inferior or braindead, I'm just saying how I think the raiding community would react about easy mode. Just predicting things.

 

Well said.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Raids are a repeated content as well, just for a different group of players. Let's be honest, most of the current raiders do have most of the raid encounters on farm mode and are doing them on autopilot.

>

> It's not the same thing. Raid encounters still require some focus. Messing up on a raid boss isn't the same as messing up a world boss, or a dungeon boss, or a low-tier fractal. Recovery is harder, and failing to recover incurs a time penalty, simply because the raid bosses take non-trivial time to kill for everyone except the absolute top teams. And that makes a difference.

 

This is why proponents of easy mode do not want to play the normal mode.

 

 

[Auri.1365]

If I want Warbringer, I've to play wvw

If I want The Ascension, I've to play pvp

If I want Aurora, I've to do all the achievements in open world pve

If I want Envoy Armor, I've to do raids

 

Every game mode has unique skins/auras. If you want it, you have to play the content. In my opinion it would be boring if I could get the fractal back or aurora in wvw as well. If you can get every skin in every game mode, no skin would feel special for the players, it would be like the everyday skins you get as a drop.

 

So if you now say, let's keep Envoy Armor as raid reward then, just make an easy mode, this wouldn't be a raid anymore. It would not be different from a dungeon/Fractal (and those have unique rewards as well). Why should anet invest resources into something we already have?

What separates Raids from other instanced content? In my opinion it is the difficulty + beeing for 10 players. If you take away the difficulty, it would be a 10-man dungeon/fractal and therefore should have dungeon/fractal rewards and not raid rewards.

 

And again, you have easy mode raids like Escort, Cairn or MO and hard mode raids like Xera and Dhuum (+CMs). Easy and hard mode already exists!

 

**The only thing that could be improved is to add a legendary armor to open world pve as well.** Not with envoy skin or a similar animated skin (as arena said it took to much time to develop), but with tiers like in wvw, where the last (legendary) tier has maybe an aura or foot-steps or something added like the wvw chest (they also could make the legendary skins of wvw and pvp armor at least a bit different from the precursor as well, so that it is really similar to a possible pve open world one).

Maybe we could close this thread and make a new one about possible ways to add more legendary stuff in open world pve (or in other game modes as well)?

Be it with living story episodes (one armor piece with each episode), the next expansion or whatever. It just shouldn't be to easy to get (be it time gated, gold gated or skill gated, feel free to discuss)

(PS: with "skill-gated" I mean soloable content that isn't hard like a raid, maybe something like some of the harder story achievements)

[Dreddo.9865]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

 

On the contrary. If you check the Fractals LFG they are 'alive and kicking' 24/7 just because of the fact there are tiers, people have the ability to train themselves without the absolute need to be trained or carried by more experienced people. That is why Fractals is a very successful game feature in terms of participation.

 

If you check the Raids LFG you can always find a 'selling' group while a decent training one where you 're not just going to waste your time is a rare thing.

 

That being said I don't agree in giving exclusive raid rewards in an easier raids tier. If such a mode should ever be introduced, its purpose should be only to attract more people into the content and not for giving rewards.