Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I'm going to cross post this message I made back when the first Easy Mode discussion popped up on the new forum.

> > "

> > This is a debate I've been hearing since Vanilla World of Warcraft added Molten Core. I heard these arguments after Dark Souls became a smash success. And now I'm hearing it with GW2. Easy mode in raids would absolutely be unhealthy for GW2.

> >

> > I've only started raiding in GW2 relatively recently. I joined a guild that advertised raid training and I really wanted that experience. For a long time, I didn't have a real guild outside of a couple of real life friends I played with. GW2 was for a long time a game that was actually pretty easy to mostly play on your own. And when Raids came out and I started getting really into the game again I really wanted to be a dedicated raider. About a couple of months ago I pulled the trigger and joined a raiding guild and I’ve never been happier playing the game.

> >

> > And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary. More specifically, what makes raids appealing to me is the fact that I can be (And was for quite sometime) excluded from them because of the difficulty. I couldn't just solo my way through them or even reliably pug it. It was the same thing with Raiding in World of Warcraft. It was a very similar thing with Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. The fact that there is real risk that I can’t see the content is what makes the content exciting. It creates a sense of danger, anticipation, and a sense of accomplishment that you just can’t get otherwise. Even if there was an easy mode, and I never ever touched the easy mode and just did the hardmode, the fact that it's possible for me to hit a switch and see all the content removes all the tension and danger and fear of failure.

> >

> > I’ve never cared to get the achievement Migraine. Because I’ve already killed Mordremoth. I already know how that fight goes down. There’s just no interest in doing it for me. I’ve seen it all before. If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore. And I certainly wouldn’t have joined a raiding guild and become a part of a community. I have more more friends and people I play with in game because the exclusionary nature of raids forced me to finally stop being a loner and find and join other like minded players.

> >

> > Regarding the story, Deimos isn’t that interesting of a character because of his dialogue or his character arc. He’s interesting explicitly because he is incredibly difficulty and the mechanics of his fight. He’s incredibly threatening and extremely intimidating because he’s hard. If there was an easy mode players could just steamroll or a story mode then Deimos losing a huge part of his character. Without that, there’s little more to him than being a weird demon we’ve never seen before that’s mean to Saul. That’s it. Matthias would be a weird crazy mage and that's it. Xera would be a Mesmer you fight in a trippy arena and that's it. They'd be like Zhaitan or the Primordus / Balthazar encounter in Flashpoint. Cinematic fights with interesting things visually, but ultimately huge jokes. Their difficulty, the time players have had to spend mastering their fights, have actually manage to give these raid characters actual character. I'm always going to remember Matthias and Slothazor and Xera and Deimos. I couldn't tell you any of the named white mantle boss's names from Living World Season 3 aside from Caudecus himself. Because the difficulty makes the story and writing shine.

> >

> > It was the same thing with WoW and Dark Souls. Ragnaros was only interesting and iconic because he was hard and it took so much work and group effort to fight and defeat him(Over at least a month if the guild is starting from scratch like mine did to get someone the reputation with the Hydraxian Waterlords high enough to fight him). Aside from that he was just a really, really large fire elemental . C’thun was only interesting because of how difficult of a fight he was . Ornstein and Smough are only interesting because of how difficult they are. If Dark Souls wasn’t hard, people would blow through that game in literally two or three hours their first playthrough and it wouldn’t leave anywhere near the impact it had on players and everyone would have forgotten about it.

> >

> > This might seem like a bit of a tangent, but I don't WvW. It's just not a game type I find interesting and will only dip my toe into it to get a Gift of Battle for a legendary weapon and that's it. And if WvW ever someday gets an update that adds new interesting things to it I'm not going to be upset about it. I think WvWers should have the coolest and most fun experience even if I don't ever set foot in a WvW map ever again. Warbringer is the coolest looking legendary backpack, but I'm never going to get it. And I'm fine with that. I don't want or need an easy mode that lets me immediately get the back pack, or lets me never have to fight other players or removing the possibility of dying while playing that content. If they add a new WvW map that's the coolest zone ever added to the game I'm not going to complain "Oh why can't they add a PvE version of this map. It's so unfair that WvW players get to run around this cool new zone that I don't get to enjoy because I don't WvW."

> >

> > It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." . Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

> >

> > Another problem is that some players just don't want to put in the effort and try. You have people who are incredibly offended at the idea that you should use food and utilities in raids or fractals (And don't get me started on the people who get pissed that you ask that you use pots for Fractals) and consider the suggestion you telling them how to play and take away their free will and individuality. They look at things like meta builds as elitists telling them how to play, instead of the community and theory crafters coming together to try and help everyone see the content as easily as possible. People spend time theorycrafting, analyzing and testing stat sigil and rune combinations, crunching numbers, practicing rotations, doing practical runs of the raids for testing, and writing detailed guides on builds and strategies are for each class during each boss because they're trying to help you. They want you to kill the bosses and see the content. Not because they arbitrarily decided that warriors should use this playstyle and that all people must use this playstyle all the time because if you don't you're stupid and my build must be the most popular.

> >

> > Guilds are always advertising that they provide raid training. You'll see raid training groups in LFG all the time. If you put in the effort to have a good build, to be able to pull off good rotations and provide good damage, if you show up to the group with food, you'll have a much better time.

> >

> > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

> >

> > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

> >

> > "

>

> you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

 

"OMG people don't agree with you what makes you think you have the right to have an opinion" is an extremely immature argument to throw at someone, buddy.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Raid, by definition, is not "easy mode".

> >

> > Easy mode raids are. Many games with raid content have easy mode versions of it. "You are aware of this," I say with zero question marks invovled.

> Those many games also focus on said raid mode instead of GW2 were it is side content. Also something you desperately want to ignore.

 

That's irrelevant to my point. Plenty of games have easy mode raids, so no, "raids, by definition, is not "easy mode"." is objectively false.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary.

 

Toxicity as a virtue and six upvotes. Why am I not surprised?

 

>If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore.

 

Why should players who would enjoy easy mode be held hostage by your lack of willpower? Just because you can't bring yourself to achieve anything more than the bare minimum effort required does not mean that other players should have no options less stringent than the bare minimum you're capable of achieving.

 

I'm sorry if you couldn't enjoy raiding if it didn't punish other players, but ultimately, in this case, your happiness would come at the expense of too many others to be worth enabling.

 

>It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." . Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

 

Agreed, but only *IF* they are content that all players can reasonably participate in, only IF easy modes are available for them. Otherwise, all that effort is completely wasted on most of the players.

 

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

>

> Sure it isn't.....

> That certainly explains why different modes of play have exclusive rewards.

 

And this is our point as to why that needs to change. It's a mechanic that is in conflict with the core features of the product, like having a trailer hitch on a sports car.

 

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > He also tried for an easier ascension and the PvP community shot him down. But theres matchmaking and no manual groups so you can get it eventually without getting kicked from most groups.

>

> He's asked for the trading post to be made easy mode as well.

 

You can't argue my positions are inconsistent.

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> And this is our point as to why that needs to change. It's a mechanic that is in conflict with the core features of the product, like having a trailer hitch on a sports car.

 

You're making the wrong point then, either out of ignorance, entitlement or something more malicious. Take your pick.

This game has things that are designed to be goals that are exclusive by nature and there's nothing wrong with that, nor is it in conflict with anything this game has to offer nor set out to do.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

>This game has things that are designed to be goals that are exclusive by nature and there's nothing wrong with that, nor is it in conflict with anything this game has to offer nor set out to do.

 

The point is, when you have a game that is mostly one thing (ie inclusive and casual), and then you have small portions that *exclude* players that *enjoy* that core gameplay, then it sets up a complete narrative conflict. It's like if you have Stardew Valley, but also it has some small portions about fighting off hordes of zombies. Or you have a game like Darksouls, but also there's this whole portion that's just a mindless clicker game for about an hour. Or you have a game like Overwatch, but if you want to get the *best* skins in the game, you need to first complete a rhythm based guitar solo minigame with perfect scores.

 

Stay true to the core that works. You can have other elements for other players, but these should be PURELY optional, as in you would not miss out on *anything* by ignoring them. Claiming that players can just "ignore" that the raid content and rewards exist is just disingenuous at best. Provide an alternate path that does not involve raiding at all, or provide an easy mode that is accessible to general GW2 audiences.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Raid, by definition, is not "easy mode".

> > >

> > > Easy mode raids are. Many games with raid content have easy mode versions of it. "You are aware of this," I say with zero question marks invovled.

> > Those many games also focus on said raid mode instead of GW2 were it is side content. Also something you desperately want to ignore.

>

> That's irrelevant to my point. Plenty of games have easy mode raids, so no, "raids, by definition, is not "easy mode"." is objectively false.

And all of them have dungeons/raids as main content. This point is completely valid. Either turn GW2 into a raid focused game and kill it or your easy mode is not happening.

 

You also ignored everything about difficulty build up and harder content at release. Nice one.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>And all of them have dungeons/raids as main content.

 

No, you *assert* that, but it's not a fact.

 

There are games with easy mode raids that do not have dungeons/raids as main content, or at least no moreso than GW2 does.

 

You CAN give GW2 easy mode raids without "making it a raid focused game." The two concepts are in no way connected.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >And all of them have dungeons/raids as main content.

>

> No, you *assert* that, but it's not a fact.

>

> There are games with easy mode raids that do not have dungeons/raids as main content, or at least no moreso than GW2 does.

>

> You CAN give GW2 easy mode raids without "making it a raid focused game." The two concepts are in no way connected.

 

Just give names?...

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > >And all of them have dungeons/raids as main content.

> >

> > No, you *assert* that, but it's not a fact.

> >

> > There are games with easy mode raids that do not have dungeons/raids as main content, or at least no moreso than GW2 does.

> >

> > You CAN give GW2 easy mode raids without "making it a raid focused game." The two concepts are in no way connected.

>

> Just give names?...

 

Fate/ Grand Order is running a raid event right now with easy, medium, and hard difficulties. Marvel Future Fight has their "Ultimate World Bosses" which are like solo raid encounters that offer multiple scales of difficulties. I;m sure others could list more games, but I'm equally sure that you'll "no true Scotsman" any games we list, because your standard of what counts is only things that support your position.

 

The fact remains that GW2 *could* implement easy mode raids without having to "become a game focused on raids." Whatever effort easy mode raids would take, it is a tiny fraction of the effort they already put into other aspects of the game, and therefore *at worst* should only slow down those aspects by a relative small amount, not halt their production entirely. Your argument here is like saying that we can't fill a pool because doing so would drain the ocean dry.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I'm going to cross post this message I made back when the first Easy Mode discussion popped up on the new forum.

> > "

> > This is a debate I've been hearing since Vanilla World of Warcraft added Molten Core. I heard these arguments after Dark Souls became a smash success. And now I'm hearing it with GW2. Easy mode in raids would absolutely be unhealthy for GW2.

> >

> > I've only started raiding in GW2 relatively recently. I joined a guild that advertised raid training and I really wanted that experience. For a long time, I didn't have a real guild outside of a couple of real life friends I played with. GW2 was for a long time a game that was actually pretty easy to mostly play on your own. And when Raids came out and I started getting really into the game again I really wanted to be a dedicated raider. About a couple of months ago I pulled the trigger and joined a raiding guild and I’ve never been happier playing the game.

> >

> > And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary. More specifically, what makes raids appealing to me is the fact that I can be (And was for quite sometime) excluded from them because of the difficulty. I couldn't just solo my way through them or even reliably pug it. It was the same thing with Raiding in World of Warcraft. It was a very similar thing with Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. The fact that there is real risk that I can’t see the content is what makes the content exciting. It creates a sense of danger, anticipation, and a sense of accomplishment that you just can’t get otherwise. Even if there was an easy mode, and I never ever touched the easy mode and just did the hardmode, the fact that it's possible for me to hit a switch and see all the content removes all the tension and danger and fear of failure.

> >

> > I’ve never cared to get the achievement Migraine. Because I’ve already killed Mordremoth. I already know how that fight goes down. There’s just no interest in doing it for me. I’ve seen it all before. If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore. And I certainly wouldn’t have joined a raiding guild and become a part of a community. I have more more friends and people I play with in game because the exclusionary nature of raids forced me to finally stop being a loner and find and join other like minded players.

> >

> > Regarding the story, Deimos isn’t that interesting of a character because of his dialogue or his character arc. He’s interesting explicitly because he is incredibly difficulty and the mechanics of his fight. He’s incredibly threatening and extremely intimidating because he’s hard. If there was an easy mode players could just steamroll or a story mode then Deimos losing a huge part of his character. Without that, there’s little more to him than being a weird demon we’ve never seen before that’s mean to Saul. That’s it. Matthias would be a weird crazy mage and that's it. Xera would be a Mesmer you fight in a trippy arena and that's it. They'd be like Zhaitan or the Primordus / Balthazar encounter in Flashpoint. Cinematic fights with interesting things visually, but ultimately huge jokes. Their difficulty, the time players have had to spend mastering their fights, have actually manage to give these raid characters actual character. I'm always going to remember Matthias and Slothazor and Xera and Deimos. I couldn't tell you any of the named white mantle boss's names from Living World Season 3 aside from Caudecus himself. Because the difficulty makes the story and writing shine.

> >

> > It was the same thing with WoW and Dark Souls. Ragnaros was only interesting and iconic because he was hard and it took so much work and group effort to fight and defeat him(Over at least a month if the guild is starting from scratch like mine did to get someone the reputation with the Hydraxian Waterlords high enough to fight him). Aside from that he was just a really, really large fire elemental . C’thun was only interesting because of how difficult of a fight he was . Ornstein and Smough are only interesting because of how difficult they are. If Dark Souls wasn’t hard, people would blow through that game in literally two or three hours their first playthrough and it wouldn’t leave anywhere near the impact it had on players and everyone would have forgotten about it.

> >

> > This might seem like a bit of a tangent, but I don't WvW. It's just not a game type I find interesting and will only dip my toe into it to get a Gift of Battle for a legendary weapon and that's it. And if WvW ever someday gets an update that adds new interesting things to it I'm not going to be upset about it. I think WvWers should have the coolest and most fun experience even if I don't ever set foot in a WvW map ever again. Warbringer is the coolest looking legendary backpack, but I'm never going to get it. And I'm fine with that. I don't want or need an easy mode that lets me immediately get the back pack, or lets me never have to fight other players or removing the possibility of dying while playing that content. If they add a new WvW map that's the coolest zone ever added to the game I'm not going to complain "Oh why can't they add a PvE version of this map. It's so unfair that WvW players get to run around this cool new zone that I don't get to enjoy because I don't WvW."

> >

> > It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." . Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

> >

> > Another problem is that some players just don't want to put in the effort and try. You have people who are incredibly offended at the idea that you should use food and utilities in raids or fractals (And don't get me started on the people who get pissed that you ask that you use pots for Fractals) and consider the suggestion you telling them how to play and take away their free will and individuality. They look at things like meta builds as elitists telling them how to play, instead of the community and theory crafters coming together to try and help everyone see the content as easily as possible. People spend time theorycrafting, analyzing and testing stat sigil and rune combinations, crunching numbers, practicing rotations, doing practical runs of the raids for testing, and writing detailed guides on builds and strategies are for each class during each boss because they're trying to help you. They want you to kill the bosses and see the content. Not because they arbitrarily decided that warriors should use this playstyle and that all people must use this playstyle all the time because if you don't you're stupid and my build must be the most popular.

> >

> > Guilds are always advertising that they provide raid training. You'll see raid training groups in LFG all the time. If you put in the effort to have a good build, to be able to pull off good rotations and provide good damage, if you show up to the group with food, you'll have a much better time.

> >

> > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

> >

> > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

> >

> > "

>

> you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

 

Endgame is always played by a minority. And exclusivity is always part of it. So while this indeed isn't WoW, the "ethos" you speak of never existed.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > >And all of them have dungeons/raids as main content.

> > >

> > > No, you *assert* that, but it's not a fact.

> > >

> > > There are games with easy mode raids that do not have dungeons/raids as main content, or at least no moreso than GW2 does.

> > >

> > > You CAN give GW2 easy mode raids without "making it a raid focused game." The two concepts are in no way connected.

> >

> > Just give names?...

>

> Fate/ Grand Order is running a raid event right now with easy, medium, and hard difficulties. Marvel Future Fight has their "Ultimate World Bosses" which are like solo raid encounters that offer multiple scales of difficulties. I;m sure others could list more games, but I'm equally sure that you'll "no true Scotsman" any games we list, because your standard of what counts is only things that support your position.

>

> The fact remains that GW2 *could* implement easy mode raids without having to "become a game focused on raids." Whatever effort easy mode raids would take, it is a tiny fraction of the effort they already put into other aspects of the game, and therefore *at worst* should only slow down those aspects by a relative small amount, not halt their production entirely. Your argument here is like saying that we can't fill a pool because doing so would drain the ocean dry.

 

Solo raids don't exist. Raids are group content.

Fate Grand Order is not an MMORPG. It doesn't even have any multiplayer component outside of those raids. They don't even classify themself as an MMORPG.

Also both are mobile games and not PC MMORPGs.

 

So which PC *MMORPG* that has no actual focus on instanced content has raids in different difficulties?

 

You still don't know what parts have to be redone and which not. Also balancing in stats and loot. You don't know how tiny your fraction is so just stop it. It is not an argument. If the time needed was actually so small you claim, don't you think ArenaNet would have already considered it? They said it won't happen so chances that the time investment is not worth it is very high. They also said that raids are not build to support multiple difficulties unlike fractals. They have to rebuild the entire raid system. That's far far away from a tiny small change.

 

And you still need to explain how you could ever think this game is supposed to be all easy with a ramping up difficulty curve over the updates.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> Solo raids don't exist. Raids are group content.

 

Called it.

 

>Fate Grand Order is not an MMORPG. It doesn't even have any multiplayer component outside of those raids. They don't even classify themself as an MMORPG.

 

Called it again.

 

>Also both are mobile games and not PC MMORPGs.

 

and a third time.

 

>So which PC MMORPG that has no actual focus on instanced content has raids in different difficulties?

 

Have you ever heard of "No True Scotsman?" Look it up.

 

>You still don't know what parts have to be redone and which not. Also balancing in stats and loot. You don't know how tiny your fraction is so just stop it.

 

Whatever amount it is, it's still a tiny fraction. I don't know how much time it would take to paint a room in my house, but I at least know it would take less time than painting the *entire* house.

 

>If the time needed was actually so small you claim, don't you think ArenaNet would have already considered it? They said it won't happen so chances that the time investment is not worth it is very high.

 

Wouldn't the same argument apply to having raids at all if this were 2014?

 

>They also said that raids are not build to support multiple difficulties unlike fractals. They have to rebuild the entire raid system. That's far far away from a tiny small change.

 

But nobody's talking about them having a broad spectrum of difficulties "like fractals." The proposal on the table is them adding ONE additional difficulty per wing, and accessing it could be as simple as just using the existing raid interfaces and picking "Spirit Vale (easy mode)" instead of "Spirit Vale," rather than needing a separate UI to select difficulty. It could be a copy/paste of the original with tweaks, rather than an instance of a single structure with realtime modifications applied to it.

 

If they believe it would be too hard, then I would love to discuss with them what they would plan to do and why they think that would be too hard, and brainstorm alternate ways that might be easier to implement, because I know that a lot of the ideas kicked around on here have been WAY more complicated than anything they'd actually need, and perhaps that's the hole they've dug for themselves on this issue.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> If they believe it would be too hard, then I would love to discuss with them what they would plan to do and why they think that would be too hard, and brainstorm alternate ways that might be easier to implement, because I know that a lot of the ideas kicked around on here have been WAY more complicated than anything they'd actually need, and perhaps that's the hole they've dug for themselves on this issue.

 

It would be harder than you imagine, but more to the point, it will not offer the Envoy set. That's out of question. It cannot happen, it will not happen. Get that already.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > If they believe it would be too hard, then I would love to discuss with them what they would plan to do and why they think that would be too hard, and brainstorm alternate ways that might be easier to implement, because I know that a lot of the ideas kicked around on here have been WAY more complicated than anything they'd actually need, and perhaps that's the hole they've dug for themselves on this issue.

>

> It would be harder than you imagine, but more to the point, it will not offer the Envoy set. That's out of question. It cannot happen, it will not happen. Get that already.

 

No.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Raid, by definition, is not "easy mode".

> > >

> > > Easy mode raids are. Many games with raid content have easy mode versions of it. "You are aware of this," I say with zero question marks invovled.

> > Those many games also focus on said raid mode instead of GW2 were it is side content. Also something you desperately want to ignore.

>

> That's irrelevant to my point. Plenty of games have easy mode raids, so no, "raids, by definition, is not "easy mode"." is objectively false.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> >And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary.

>

> Toxicity as a virtue and six upvotes. Why am I not surprised?

>

> >If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore.

>

> Why should players who would enjoy easy mode be held hostage by your lack of willpower? Just because you can't bring yourself to achieve anything more than the bare minimum effort required does not mean that other players should have no options less stringent than the bare minimum you're capable of achieving.

>

> I'm sorry if you couldn't enjoy raiding if it didn't punish other players, but ultimately, in this case, your happiness would come at the expense of too many others to be worth enabling.

>

> >It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

>

> Agreed, but only *IF* they are content that all players can reasonably participate in, only IF easy modes are available for them. Otherwise, all that effort is completely wasted on most of the players.

>

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

> >

> > Sure it isn't.....

> > That certainly explains why different modes of play have exclusive rewards.

>

> And this is our point as to why that needs to change. It's a mechanic that is in conflict with the core features of the product, like having a trailer hitch on a sports car.

>

> > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > He also tried for an easier ascension and the PvP community shot him down. But theres matchmaking and no manual groups so you can get it eventually without getting kicked from most groups.

> >

> > He's asked for the trading post to be made easy mode as well.

>

> You can't argue my positions are inconsistent.

 

I like how you snipped out the entire bulk of my comment to take me out of context and call me toxic. That's some classy debate skills there. Let's take a look at the whole quote in context.

 

> And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary. **More specifically, what makes raids appealing to me is the fact that I can be (And was for quite sometime) excluded from them because of the difficulty. I couldn't just solo my way through them or even reliably pug it. **It was the same thing with Raiding in World of Warcraft. It was a very similar thing with Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. **The fact that there is real risk that I can’t see the content is what makes the content exciting. It creates a sense of danger, anticipation, and a sense of accomplishment that you just can’t get otherwise. Even if there was an easy mode, and I never ever touched the easy mode and just did the hardmode, the fact that it's possible for me to hit a switch and see all the content removes all the tension and danger and fear of failure.**

 

That you quote mined me as deceptively and blatantly as possible to attack my character should be reason enough to not deal with you. But I am, above all, a reasonable man.

 

The bulk of my post isn't that I want people to feel left out and their misery of being left out is fun. It's that the danger of failure improves the experience for everyone. Not just people who are currently playing it, but people who will try raiding in the future including a majority of people who are asking for easy mode right now. It's about how I know what it's like to feel left out of raids. Of just wanting to see the raids and not worry about the group gameplay of them. And in the long run, if I had the ability to give into that impulse it would mean a drastically worse and less engaging experience for me and everyone that raids.

 

[

"https://youtube.com/watch?v=QOhXwXyCMdQ&t=9m")

 

You see this feeling? Hearing ten friends _cry out in joy_ after killing a boss? You only get that after hours of wiping. After failing to kill the boss, after being scared you aren't going to get the kill. I think a majority of players are _absolutely capable_ of killing raid bosses, even the people in this thread who don't have a group and don't think they can do it, and just want the easy mode. And I think those players will have more fun, feel more accomplished and rewarded, and find the entire experience more memorable. People are going to walk away always remembering their first Dhuum or Matthias kill. No one is going to remember their fight against High Inquisitor Victor even if they enjoy the beats of the game's main story. And adding an easy mode would deprive everyone of the potential to have that feeling like you see in the video.

 

The game is in an immensely more healthy state when most players haven't completed all the content. When there is always stuff out there for them to complete and experience that's beyond their capabilities right now. I don't know about you, but I remember the pessimism the bulk of the player base had during Season 2, back when every couple of weeks we got about an hour or two of story content that everyone blitzed through because there was zero challenge and spent the next few weeks bored and miserable. The pessimism that Silverwastes might be the peak of this game's PvE content. When there was no word that any expansion was ever coming. It was a bleak time.

 

Finally, it has from _the very beginning_ of GW2 been the goal to have dedicated hardcore difficult group content. GW2 has always had a philosophy that hard group content isn't _mandatory_. That there's no gear treadmill designed to keep you playing forever. That you can log in for a couple of hours a week and still have fun and make relevant accomplishments in game. But core brand of GW2 has never been "Everything is easy. Nothing is hard." Right from the beginning they wanted dungeons to be have explorable dungeons be difficult, hardcore content requiring skilled dedicated comps to beat. They didn't want explorable dungeons to be the braindead farms they became. They just didn't understand how players would react and build their characters in response to PvE content. They even drew explicit comparison to the difficult group content from GW1 like Fissure of Woe and Underworld.

 

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/gw2-interview-with-colin-johanson-on-dungeons-and-underwater-content

 

> **Colin Johanson**: The dungeons that we have come in two modes. The story mode is basically

> pick-up-group friendly. Theyre difficulty-wise balanced for five random

> players, and those tell the story of Destinys Edge, the guild from the book

> (Edge of Destiny). And when you finish the story version of a dungeon you unlock

> **the explorable version of that dungeon.

>

> Those are intended to be the super hard, very coordinated group style content

> like Slavers Exile, or Fissure of Woe, or the Underworld.**

 

- Colin Johanson Jul 27, 2011

 

A year after release, the developers were so unhappy about explorable dungeons and how much they missed they openly talked about the possibility of completely nuking them and building something new from the ashes just a year after launch. And after launch they kept experimenting with difficult group content with things like Tequatl and Triple Trouble because they always wanted that in the game. Because they knew how important it is for the long term health of the game to have content that incentives gear aside from Berserker's gear, for people to understand the mechanics of combat and their class's capabilities to the fullest. And they finally knocked it out of the park with raids in Heart of Thorns.

 

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/colin-johanson-talks-dungeons-dragons-and-chairs

 

GW2's philosophy was never intended to be "everything is casual and easy". It's that there's **something here for everyone**, that you aren't required to run the gear treadmill nonstop to stay relevant and to enjoy future content, and that there's always something you can do for progress no matter whether you play two hours a week or twenty. The idea that raids are betraying GW2's core philosophy when hard challenging group content was a goal years before the game released is just factually wrong because that all of it's real core tenets are _absolutely still true_.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I like how you snipped out the entire bulk of my comment to take me out of context and call me toxic. That's some classy debate skills there. Let's take a look at the whole quote in context.

 

I felt it adequately expressed your point, that the toxicity of the raid scene is a necessary part of the process. Once you elaborated, I'm not as sure of that as before, but I still don't see how you could have a raid system as you describe it without an inherently toxic element.

 

>The bulk of my post isn't that I want people to feel left out and their misery of being left out is fun. It's that the danger of failure improves the experience for everyone.

 

But that is factually incorrect. It simply does not improve the experience for *everyone.* It improves the experience *for you* and that's fine, so you know that *you* should play hard mode only, even when given other options. For *other* players, that hard mode experience will NEVER be fun *for them.* You are doing *them* no favors by ensuring that they have no alternatives.

 

>And in the long run, if I had the ability to give into that impulse it would mean a drastically worse and less engaging experience for me and everyone that raids.

 

Perhaps so, for you, and perhaps from the other people in those raids, who benefited from your presence, but *not* for everyone else.

 

>You see this feeling? Hearing ten friends cry out in joy after killing a boss? You only get that after hours of wiping.

 

And some people really enjoy that. Those people should stick to hard mode raids, and get that experience *they* are looking for. But not all players process those situations the same way. For many players, while they would certainly feel *happy* after having completed a boss after hours of failure, the happiness they feel would not *overcome* the frustration they had with the prior experience. It would be a relief, but not an elation. For you, when you feel an experience like that, on a joy scale of 1-10 it might be a 10, with the rest of the process of getting there being like a 5. For others, the process might be more like a 3, and the eventual success more like a 7, and while *you* feel that the whole thing is well worth it afterwards, they would not.

 

Different experiences for different people, *one size does not fit all.* If you take nothing else from this discussion, please take that fact.

 

>I think a majority of players are absolutely capable of killing raid bosses, even the people in this thread who don't have a group and don't think they can do it, and just want the easy mode.

 

I can agree with that. I think that the majority of players *can* kill the raid bosses. I just feel that for the majority that haven't already, the process of getting there would, on balance, be a net negative *to them,* because they do not process highs and lows the way that you do. They *could do it,* but they could never be *happy* about it, and in a game, that's the most important part. Those who would enjoy that process, for the most part, are already doing so.

 

>And adding an easy mode would deprive everyone of the potential to have that feeling like you see in the video.

 

No, it would only deprive those players who *would* enjoy that feeling, and who *chose* not to pursue that path even if given the option. The players who don't feel that way, would continue to not feel that way, and the players who do feel like you do, and choose appropriately to *only* play the hard mode, would feel the same elated feeling at their accomplishment.

 

> I don't know about you, but I remember the pessimism the bulk of the player base had during Season 2, back when every couple of weeks we got about an hour or two of story content that everyone blitzed through because there was zero challenge and spent the next few weeks bored and miserable. The pessimism that Silverwastes might be the peak of this game's PvE content. When there was no word that any expansion was ever coming. It was a bleak time.

 

Raids have done nothing to change any of that, since most players do not even touch raids. What keeps most people playing is the open world updates.

 

> But core brand of GW2 has never been "Everything is easy. Nothing is hard." Right from the beginning they wanted dungeons to be have explorable dungeons be difficult, hardcore content requiring skilled dedicated comps to beat. They didn't want explorable dungeons to be the braindead farms they became.

 

But regardless of their intentions, that is what they got, and the majority of players who stuck around after launch did so because *that's what they wanted.*

 

>GW2's philosophy was never intended to be "everything is casual and easy". It's that there's something here for everyone, that you aren't required to run the gear treadmill nonstop to stay relevant and to enjoy future content, and that there's always something you can do for progress no matter whether you play two hours a week or twenty.

 

And that's fine, I *want* the hard version of raiding to continue to exist, for players like you to continue enjoying. I just want an easier mode of them for everyone else to enjoy too.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > If they believe it would be too hard, then I would love to discuss with them what they would plan to do and why they think that would be too hard, and brainstorm alternate ways that might be easier to implement, because I know that a lot of the ideas kicked around on here have been WAY more complicated than anything they'd actually need, and perhaps that's the hole they've dug for themselves on this issue.

> >

> > It would be harder than you imagine, but more to the point, it will not offer the Envoy set. That's out of question. It cannot happen, it will not happen. Get that already.

>

> No.

 

Fine. Ignore reality all you like.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > I'm going to cross post this message I made back when the first Easy Mode discussion popped up on the new forum.

> > > "

> > > This is a debate I've been hearing since Vanilla World of Warcraft added Molten Core. I heard these arguments after Dark Souls became a smash success. And now I'm hearing it with GW2. Easy mode in raids would absolutely be unhealthy for GW2.

> > >

> > > I've only started raiding in GW2 relatively recently. I joined a guild that advertised raid training and I really wanted that experience. For a long time, I didn't have a real guild outside of a couple of real life friends I played with. GW2 was for a long time a game that was actually pretty easy to mostly play on your own. And when Raids came out and I started getting really into the game again I really wanted to be a dedicated raider. About a couple of months ago I pulled the trigger and joined a raiding guild and I’ve never been happier playing the game.

> > >

> > > And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary. More specifically, what makes raids appealing to me is the fact that I can be (And was for quite sometime) excluded from them because of the difficulty. I couldn't just solo my way through them or even reliably pug it. It was the same thing with Raiding in World of Warcraft. It was a very similar thing with Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. The fact that there is real risk that I can’t see the content is what makes the content exciting. It creates a sense of danger, anticipation, and a sense of accomplishment that you just can’t get otherwise. Even if there was an easy mode, and I never ever touched the easy mode and just did the hardmode, the fact that it's possible for me to hit a switch and see all the content removes all the tension and danger and fear of failure.

> > >

> > > I’ve never cared to get the achievement Migraine. Because I’ve already killed Mordremoth. I already know how that fight goes down. There’s just no interest in doing it for me. I’ve seen it all before. If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore. And I certainly wouldn’t have joined a raiding guild and become a part of a community. I have more more friends and people I play with in game because the exclusionary nature of raids forced me to finally stop being a loner and find and join other like minded players.

> > >

> > > Regarding the story, Deimos isn’t that interesting of a character because of his dialogue or his character arc. He’s interesting explicitly because he is incredibly difficulty and the mechanics of his fight. He’s incredibly threatening and extremely intimidating because he’s hard. If there was an easy mode players could just steamroll or a story mode then Deimos losing a huge part of his character. Without that, there’s little more to him than being a weird demon we’ve never seen before that’s mean to Saul. That’s it. Matthias would be a weird crazy mage and that's it. Xera would be a Mesmer you fight in a trippy arena and that's it. They'd be like Zhaitan or the Primordus / Balthazar encounter in Flashpoint. Cinematic fights with interesting things visually, but ultimately huge jokes. Their difficulty, the time players have had to spend mastering their fights, have actually manage to give these raid characters actual character. I'm always going to remember Matthias and Slothazor and Xera and Deimos. I couldn't tell you any of the named white mantle boss's names from Living World Season 3 aside from Caudecus himself. Because the difficulty makes the story and writing shine.

> > >

> > > It was the same thing with WoW and Dark Souls. Ragnaros was only interesting and iconic because he was hard and it took so much work and group effort to fight and defeat him(Over at least a month if the guild is starting from scratch like mine did to get someone the reputation with the Hydraxian Waterlords high enough to fight him). Aside from that he was just a really, really large fire elemental . C’thun was only interesting because of how difficult of a fight he was . Ornstein and Smough are only interesting because of how difficult they are. If Dark Souls wasn’t hard, people would blow through that game in literally two or three hours their first playthrough and it wouldn’t leave anywhere near the impact it had on players and everyone would have forgotten about it.

> > >

> > > This might seem like a bit of a tangent, but I don't WvW. It's just not a game type I find interesting and will only dip my toe into it to get a Gift of Battle for a legendary weapon and that's it. And if WvW ever someday gets an update that adds new interesting things to it I'm not going to be upset about it. I think WvWers should have the coolest and most fun experience even if I don't ever set foot in a WvW map ever again. Warbringer is the coolest looking legendary backpack, but I'm never going to get it. And I'm fine with that. I don't want or need an easy mode that lets me immediately get the back pack, or lets me never have to fight other players or removing the possibility of dying while playing that content. If they add a new WvW map that's the coolest zone ever added to the game I'm not going to complain "Oh why can't they add a PvE version of this map. It's so unfair that WvW players get to run around this cool new zone that I don't get to enjoy because I don't WvW."

> > >

> > > It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." . Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

> > >

> > > Another problem is that some players just don't want to put in the effort and try. You have people who are incredibly offended at the idea that you should use food and utilities in raids or fractals (And don't get me started on the people who get pissed that you ask that you use pots for Fractals) and consider the suggestion you telling them how to play and take away their free will and individuality. They look at things like meta builds as elitists telling them how to play, instead of the community and theory crafters coming together to try and help everyone see the content as easily as possible. People spend time theorycrafting, analyzing and testing stat sigil and rune combinations, crunching numbers, practicing rotations, doing practical runs of the raids for testing, and writing detailed guides on builds and strategies are for each class during each boss because they're trying to help you. They want you to kill the bosses and see the content. Not because they arbitrarily decided that warriors should use this playstyle and that all people must use this playstyle all the time because if you don't you're stupid and my build must be the most popular.

> > >

> > > Guilds are always advertising that they provide raid training. You'll see raid training groups in LFG all the time. If you put in the effort to have a good build, to be able to pull off good rotations and provide good damage, if you show up to the group with food, you'll have a much better time.

> > >

> > > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

> > >

> > > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

> > >

> > > "

> >

> > you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

>

> Endgame is always played by a minority. And exclusivity is always part of it. So while this indeed isn't WoW, the "ethos" you speak of never existed.

 

People are confusing 'exclusivity' as a strategy and 'exclusive' gear/skins, very different things. The ethos exists in this and a couple other mmorpg (e.g eve/lotr/gw/eso). The principle is that the goal is not to have 'better' items than others that is tied exclusively to 1 type of content, but to provide satisfying long term goals/skins that spreads across a broad spectrum of content. That's different from saying each type of content has exclusive/unique content, which as it should be.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > That's irrelevant to my point. Plenty of games have easy mode raids, so no, "raids, by definition, is not "easy mode"." is objectively false.

> And all of them have dungeons/raids as main content.

This, again, is completely irrelevant. Asserting that "raids are difficult by definition" is objectively wrong, because most games that have raids do in fact have easy raids as well. Those do exist. Trying to claim those cannot exist is thus just plain wrong, with no arguing about it. And whether raids are core or side content has absolutely no bearing on that initial assertion.

 

Basically, you could possibly argue about whether easy mode raids have their place in games where raids are a side content (and whether something that raiders consider to be the pve endgame can be treated as a side content), but you can't claim that easy mode cannot exist, that raids must always be difficult, because that's what raids are. That claim is simply completely and objectively untrue.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > I'm going to cross post this message I made back when the first Easy Mode discussion popped up on the new forum.

> > > > "

> > > > This is a debate I've been hearing since Vanilla World of Warcraft added Molten Core. I heard these arguments after Dark Souls became a smash success. And now I'm hearing it with GW2. Easy mode in raids would absolutely be unhealthy for GW2.

> > > >

> > > > I've only started raiding in GW2 relatively recently. I joined a guild that advertised raid training and I really wanted that experience. For a long time, I didn't have a real guild outside of a couple of real life friends I played with. GW2 was for a long time a game that was actually pretty easy to mostly play on your own. And when Raids came out and I started getting really into the game again I really wanted to be a dedicated raider. About a couple of months ago I pulled the trigger and joined a raiding guild and I’ve never been happier playing the game.

> > > >

> > > > And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary. More specifically, what makes raids appealing to me is the fact that I can be (And was for quite sometime) excluded from them because of the difficulty. I couldn't just solo my way through them or even reliably pug it. It was the same thing with Raiding in World of Warcraft. It was a very similar thing with Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. The fact that there is real risk that I can’t see the content is what makes the content exciting. It creates a sense of danger, anticipation, and a sense of accomplishment that you just can’t get otherwise. Even if there was an easy mode, and I never ever touched the easy mode and just did the hardmode, the fact that it's possible for me to hit a switch and see all the content removes all the tension and danger and fear of failure.

> > > >

> > > > I’ve never cared to get the achievement Migraine. Because I’ve already killed Mordremoth. I already know how that fight goes down. There’s just no interest in doing it for me. I’ve seen it all before. If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore. And I certainly wouldn’t have joined a raiding guild and become a part of a community. I have more more friends and people I play with in game because the exclusionary nature of raids forced me to finally stop being a loner and find and join other like minded players.

> > > >

> > > > Regarding the story, Deimos isn’t that interesting of a character because of his dialogue or his character arc. He’s interesting explicitly because he is incredibly difficulty and the mechanics of his fight. He’s incredibly threatening and extremely intimidating because he’s hard. If there was an easy mode players could just steamroll or a story mode then Deimos losing a huge part of his character. Without that, there’s little more to him than being a weird demon we’ve never seen before that’s mean to Saul. That’s it. Matthias would be a weird crazy mage and that's it. Xera would be a Mesmer you fight in a trippy arena and that's it. They'd be like Zhaitan or the Primordus / Balthazar encounter in Flashpoint. Cinematic fights with interesting things visually, but ultimately huge jokes. Their difficulty, the time players have had to spend mastering their fights, have actually manage to give these raid characters actual character. I'm always going to remember Matthias and Slothazor and Xera and Deimos. I couldn't tell you any of the named white mantle boss's names from Living World Season 3 aside from Caudecus himself. Because the difficulty makes the story and writing shine.

> > > >

> > > > It was the same thing with WoW and Dark Souls. Ragnaros was only interesting and iconic because he was hard and it took so much work and group effort to fight and defeat him(Over at least a month if the guild is starting from scratch like mine did to get someone the reputation with the Hydraxian Waterlords high enough to fight him). Aside from that he was just a really, really large fire elemental . C’thun was only interesting because of how difficult of a fight he was . Ornstein and Smough are only interesting because of how difficult they are. If Dark Souls wasn’t hard, people would blow through that game in literally two or three hours their first playthrough and it wouldn’t leave anywhere near the impact it had on players and everyone would have forgotten about it.

> > > >

> > > > This might seem like a bit of a tangent, but I don't WvW. It's just not a game type I find interesting and will only dip my toe into it to get a Gift of Battle for a legendary weapon and that's it. And if WvW ever someday gets an update that adds new interesting things to it I'm not going to be upset about it. I think WvWers should have the coolest and most fun experience even if I don't ever set foot in a WvW map ever again. Warbringer is the coolest looking legendary backpack, but I'm never going to get it. And I'm fine with that. I don't want or need an easy mode that lets me immediately get the back pack, or lets me never have to fight other players or removing the possibility of dying while playing that content. If they add a new WvW map that's the coolest zone ever added to the game I'm not going to complain "Oh why can't they add a PvE version of this map. It's so unfair that WvW players get to run around this cool new zone that I don't get to enjoy because I don't WvW."

> > > >

> > > > It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." . Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

> > > >

> > > > Another problem is that some players just don't want to put in the effort and try. You have people who are incredibly offended at the idea that you should use food and utilities in raids or fractals (And don't get me started on the people who get pissed that you ask that you use pots for Fractals) and consider the suggestion you telling them how to play and take away their free will and individuality. They look at things like meta builds as elitists telling them how to play, instead of the community and theory crafters coming together to try and help everyone see the content as easily as possible. People spend time theorycrafting, analyzing and testing stat sigil and rune combinations, crunching numbers, practicing rotations, doing practical runs of the raids for testing, and writing detailed guides on builds and strategies are for each class during each boss because they're trying to help you. They want you to kill the bosses and see the content. Not because they arbitrarily decided that warriors should use this playstyle and that all people must use this playstyle all the time because if you don't you're stupid and my build must be the most popular.

> > > >

> > > > Guilds are always advertising that they provide raid training. You'll see raid training groups in LFG all the time. If you put in the effort to have a good build, to be able to pull off good rotations and provide good damage, if you show up to the group with food, you'll have a much better time.

> > > >

> > > > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

> > > >

> > > > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

> > > >

> > > > "

> > >

> > > you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

> >

> > Endgame is always played by a minority. And exclusivity is always part of it. So while this indeed isn't WoW, the "ethos" you speak of never existed.

>

> People are confusing 'exclusivity' as a strategy and 'exclusive' gear/skins, very different things. The ethos exists in this and a couple other mmorpg (e.g eve/lotr/gw/eso). The principle is that the goal is not to have 'better' items than others that is tied exclusively to 1 type of content, but to provide satisfying long term goals/skins that spreads across a broad spectrum of content. That's different from saying each type of content has exclusive/unique content, which as it should be.

 

Oh really? So how come all the long term goals/skins in this game are strictly tied to specific content?

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > I'm going to cross post this message I made back when the first Easy Mode discussion popped up on the new forum.

> > > > > "

> > > > > This is a debate I've been hearing since Vanilla World of Warcraft added Molten Core. I heard these arguments after Dark Souls became a smash success. And now I'm hearing it with GW2. Easy mode in raids would absolutely be unhealthy for GW2.

> > > > >

> > > > > I've only started raiding in GW2 relatively recently. I joined a guild that advertised raid training and I really wanted that experience. For a long time, I didn't have a real guild outside of a couple of real life friends I played with. GW2 was for a long time a game that was actually pretty easy to mostly play on your own. And when Raids came out and I started getting really into the game again I really wanted to be a dedicated raider. About a couple of months ago I pulled the trigger and joined a raiding guild and I’ve never been happier playing the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary. More specifically, what makes raids appealing to me is the fact that I can be (And was for quite sometime) excluded from them because of the difficulty. I couldn't just solo my way through them or even reliably pug it. It was the same thing with Raiding in World of Warcraft. It was a very similar thing with Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. The fact that there is real risk that I can’t see the content is what makes the content exciting. It creates a sense of danger, anticipation, and a sense of accomplishment that you just can’t get otherwise. Even if there was an easy mode, and I never ever touched the easy mode and just did the hardmode, the fact that it's possible for me to hit a switch and see all the content removes all the tension and danger and fear of failure.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’ve never cared to get the achievement Migraine. Because I’ve already killed Mordremoth. I already know how that fight goes down. There’s just no interest in doing it for me. I’ve seen it all before. If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore. And I certainly wouldn’t have joined a raiding guild and become a part of a community. I have more more friends and people I play with in game because the exclusionary nature of raids forced me to finally stop being a loner and find and join other like minded players.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regarding the story, Deimos isn’t that interesting of a character because of his dialogue or his character arc. He’s interesting explicitly because he is incredibly difficulty and the mechanics of his fight. He’s incredibly threatening and extremely intimidating because he’s hard. If there was an easy mode players could just steamroll or a story mode then Deimos losing a huge part of his character. Without that, there’s little more to him than being a weird demon we’ve never seen before that’s mean to Saul. That’s it. Matthias would be a weird crazy mage and that's it. Xera would be a Mesmer you fight in a trippy arena and that's it. They'd be like Zhaitan or the Primordus / Balthazar encounter in Flashpoint. Cinematic fights with interesting things visually, but ultimately huge jokes. Their difficulty, the time players have had to spend mastering their fights, have actually manage to give these raid characters actual character. I'm always going to remember Matthias and Slothazor and Xera and Deimos. I couldn't tell you any of the named white mantle boss's names from Living World Season 3 aside from Caudecus himself. Because the difficulty makes the story and writing shine.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was the same thing with WoW and Dark Souls. Ragnaros was only interesting and iconic because he was hard and it took so much work and group effort to fight and defeat him(Over at least a month if the guild is starting from scratch like mine did to get someone the reputation with the Hydraxian Waterlords high enough to fight him). Aside from that he was just a really, really large fire elemental . C’thun was only interesting because of how difficult of a fight he was . Ornstein and Smough are only interesting because of how difficult they are. If Dark Souls wasn’t hard, people would blow through that game in literally two or three hours their first playthrough and it wouldn’t leave anywhere near the impact it had on players and everyone would have forgotten about it.

> > > > >

> > > > > This might seem like a bit of a tangent, but I don't WvW. It's just not a game type I find interesting and will only dip my toe into it to get a Gift of Battle for a legendary weapon and that's it. And if WvW ever someday gets an update that adds new interesting things to it I'm not going to be upset about it. I think WvWers should have the coolest and most fun experience even if I don't ever set foot in a WvW map ever again. Warbringer is the coolest looking legendary backpack, but I'm never going to get it. And I'm fine with that. I don't want or need an easy mode that lets me immediately get the back pack, or lets me never have to fight other players or removing the possibility of dying while playing that content. If they add a new WvW map that's the coolest zone ever added to the game I'm not going to complain "Oh why can't they add a PvE version of this map. It's so unfair that WvW players get to run around this cool new zone that I don't get to enjoy because I don't WvW."

> > > > >

> > > > > It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." . Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > Another problem is that some players just don't want to put in the effort and try. You have people who are incredibly offended at the idea that you should use food and utilities in raids or fractals (And don't get me started on the people who get pissed that you ask that you use pots for Fractals) and consider the suggestion you telling them how to play and take away their free will and individuality. They look at things like meta builds as elitists telling them how to play, instead of the community and theory crafters coming together to try and help everyone see the content as easily as possible. People spend time theorycrafting, analyzing and testing stat sigil and rune combinations, crunching numbers, practicing rotations, doing practical runs of the raids for testing, and writing detailed guides on builds and strategies are for each class during each boss because they're trying to help you. They want you to kill the bosses and see the content. Not because they arbitrarily decided that warriors should use this playstyle and that all people must use this playstyle all the time because if you don't you're stupid and my build must be the most popular.

> > > > >

> > > > > Guilds are always advertising that they provide raid training. You'll see raid training groups in LFG all the time. If you put in the effort to have a good build, to be able to pull off good rotations and provide good damage, if you show up to the group with food, you'll have a much better time.

> > > > >

> > > > > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

> > > > >

> > > > > "

> > > >

> > > > you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

> > >

> > > Endgame is always played by a minority. And exclusivity is always part of it. So while this indeed isn't WoW, the "ethos" you speak of never existed.

> >

> > People are confusing 'exclusivity' as a strategy and 'exclusive' gear/skins, very different things. The ethos exists in this and a couple other mmorpg (e.g eve/lotr/gw/eso). The principle is that the goal is not to have 'better' items than others that is tied exclusively to 1 type of content, but to provide satisfying long term goals/skins that spreads across a broad spectrum of content. That's different from saying each type of content has exclusive/unique content, which as it should be.

>

> Oh really? So how come all the long term goals/skins in this game are strictly tied to specific content?

 

That's simply that skins are exclusive to content, i said that in my post. If you are looking at a single thing in isolation ( a skin, an item of gear e.g) ofc its exclusive. look at the thread of conversation, the chat was implying that GW should take a similar strategic approach as games like WOW. It does not and should not. Think of it this way, if wow was a mountain, it would get higher every year, and you only get the best stuff if you get to the top. The strategy is exclusivity - being top dog at the top of the mountain and you get to the top gear. This exclusivity is the hook that drives people. In GW2 that is not the strategic approach or ethos that Anet follow. Just like GW1, all gear at end game is or should be equal, and you pick your route to a desired skin. The driving principle is not exclusivity, its freedom of choice - you pick a long term objective out of a sweety shop of long term objectives, all of which are time based..except for 1 single strand of content - raiding in its current form requires contiguous time blocks to learn and play properly.

 

Exclusivity:

 

- the practice of excluding or not admitting other things.

- restriction to a particular person, group, or area.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > I'm going to cross post this message I made back when the first Easy Mode discussion popped up on the new forum.

> > > > > > "

> > > > > > This is a debate I've been hearing since Vanilla World of Warcraft added Molten Core. I heard these arguments after Dark Souls became a smash success. And now I'm hearing it with GW2. Easy mode in raids would absolutely be unhealthy for GW2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I've only started raiding in GW2 relatively recently. I joined a guild that advertised raid training and I really wanted that experience. For a long time, I didn't have a real guild outside of a couple of real life friends I played with. GW2 was for a long time a game that was actually pretty easy to mostly play on your own. And when Raids came out and I started getting really into the game again I really wanted to be a dedicated raider. About a couple of months ago I pulled the trigger and joined a raiding guild and I’ve never been happier playing the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary. More specifically, what makes raids appealing to me is the fact that I can be (And was for quite sometime) excluded from them because of the difficulty. I couldn't just solo my way through them or even reliably pug it. It was the same thing with Raiding in World of Warcraft. It was a very similar thing with Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. The fact that there is real risk that I can’t see the content is what makes the content exciting. It creates a sense of danger, anticipation, and a sense of accomplishment that you just can’t get otherwise. Even if there was an easy mode, and I never ever touched the easy mode and just did the hardmode, the fact that it's possible for me to hit a switch and see all the content removes all the tension and danger and fear of failure.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’ve never cared to get the achievement Migraine. Because I’ve already killed Mordremoth. I already know how that fight goes down. There’s just no interest in doing it for me. I’ve seen it all before. If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore. And I certainly wouldn’t have joined a raiding guild and become a part of a community. I have more more friends and people I play with in game because the exclusionary nature of raids forced me to finally stop being a loner and find and join other like minded players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regarding the story, Deimos isn’t that interesting of a character because of his dialogue or his character arc. He’s interesting explicitly because he is incredibly difficulty and the mechanics of his fight. He’s incredibly threatening and extremely intimidating because he’s hard. If there was an easy mode players could just steamroll or a story mode then Deimos losing a huge part of his character. Without that, there’s little more to him than being a weird demon we’ve never seen before that’s mean to Saul. That’s it. Matthias would be a weird crazy mage and that's it. Xera would be a Mesmer you fight in a trippy arena and that's it. They'd be like Zhaitan or the Primordus / Balthazar encounter in Flashpoint. Cinematic fights with interesting things visually, but ultimately huge jokes. Their difficulty, the time players have had to spend mastering their fights, have actually manage to give these raid characters actual character. I'm always going to remember Matthias and Slothazor and Xera and Deimos. I couldn't tell you any of the named white mantle boss's names from Living World Season 3 aside from Caudecus himself. Because the difficulty makes the story and writing shine.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It was the same thing with WoW and Dark Souls. Ragnaros was only interesting and iconic because he was hard and it took so much work and group effort to fight and defeat him(Over at least a month if the guild is starting from scratch like mine did to get someone the reputation with the Hydraxian Waterlords high enough to fight him). Aside from that he was just a really, really large fire elemental . C’thun was only interesting because of how difficult of a fight he was . Ornstein and Smough are only interesting because of how difficult they are. If Dark Souls wasn’t hard, people would blow through that game in literally two or three hours their first playthrough and it wouldn’t leave anywhere near the impact it had on players and everyone would have forgotten about it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This might seem like a bit of a tangent, but I don't WvW. It's just not a game type I find interesting and will only dip my toe into it to get a Gift of Battle for a legendary weapon and that's it. And if WvW ever someday gets an update that adds new interesting things to it I'm not going to be upset about it. I think WvWers should have the coolest and most fun experience even if I don't ever set foot in a WvW map ever again. Warbringer is the coolest looking legendary backpack, but I'm never going to get it. And I'm fine with that. I don't want or need an easy mode that lets me immediately get the back pack, or lets me never have to fight other players or removing the possibility of dying while playing that content. If they add a new WvW map that's the coolest zone ever added to the game I'm not going to complain "Oh why can't they add a PvE version of this map. It's so unfair that WvW players get to run around this cool new zone that I don't get to enjoy because I don't WvW."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." . Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Another problem is that some players just don't want to put in the effort and try. You have people who are incredibly offended at the idea that you should use food and utilities in raids or fractals (And don't get me started on the people who get pissed that you ask that you use pots for Fractals) and consider the suggestion you telling them how to play and take away their free will and individuality. They look at things like meta builds as elitists telling them how to play, instead of the community and theory crafters coming together to try and help everyone see the content as easily as possible. People spend time theorycrafting, analyzing and testing stat sigil and rune combinations, crunching numbers, practicing rotations, doing practical runs of the raids for testing, and writing detailed guides on builds and strategies are for each class during each boss because they're trying to help you. They want you to kill the bosses and see the content. Not because they arbitrarily decided that warriors should use this playstyle and that all people must use this playstyle all the time because if you don't you're stupid and my build must be the most popular.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Guilds are always advertising that they provide raid training. You'll see raid training groups in LFG all the time. If you put in the effort to have a good build, to be able to pull off good rotations and provide good damage, if you show up to the group with food, you'll have a much better time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "

> > > > >

> > > > > you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

> > > >

> > > > Endgame is always played by a minority. And exclusivity is always part of it. So while this indeed isn't WoW, the "ethos" you speak of never existed.

> > >

> > > People are confusing 'exclusivity' as a strategy and 'exclusive' gear/skins, very different things. The ethos exists in this and a couple other mmorpg (e.g eve/lotr/gw/eso). The principle is that the goal is not to have 'better' items than others that is tied exclusively to 1 type of content, but to provide satisfying long term goals/skins that spreads across a broad spectrum of content. That's different from saying each type of content has exclusive/unique content, which as it should be.

> >

> > Oh really? So how come all the long term goals/skins in this game are strictly tied to specific content?

>

> That's simply that skins are exclusive to content, i said that in my post. If you are looking at a single thing in isolation ( a skin, an item of gear e.g) ofc its exclusive. look at the thread of conversation, the chat was implying that GW should take a similar strategic approach as games like WOW. It does not and should not. Think of it this way, if wow was a mountain, it would get higher every year, and you only get the best stuff if you get to the top. The strategy is exclusivity - being top dog at the top of the mountain and you get to the top gear. This exclusivity is the hook that drives people. In GW2 that is not the strategic approach or ethos that Anet follow. Just like GW1, all gear at end game is or should be equal, and you pick your route to a desired skin. The driving principle is not exclusivity, its freedom of choice - you pick a long term objective out of a sweety shop of long term objectives, all of which are time based..except for 1 single strand of content - raiding in its current form requires contiguous time blocks to learn and play properly.

>

> Exclusivity:

>

> - the practice of excluding or not admitting other things.

> - restriction to a particular person, group, or area.

>

 

But a route to your desired skin is exactly what you can't do. You can pick a route for the top-tier gear in respect to power. But skins? Nope.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

>The driving principle is not exclusivity, its freedom of choice - you pick a long term objective out of a sweety shop of long term objectives, all of which are time based..except for 1 single strand of content - raiding in its current form requires contiguous time blocks to learn and play properly.

 

Yet there are less people (far less) that finished CM Fractals than are raiding and Fractal CMs have their own exclusive rewards.

There are less people that finished Migraine (CM Mordremoth) than killed Xera in Raids, and Migraine has an exclusive reward.

Winning a PVP Monthly Tournament has exclusive rewards and the number of players that have won one is tiny percentage.

 

How are those "timed based" I wonder.

 

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> >This game has things that are designed to be goals that are exclusive by nature and there's nothing wrong with that, nor is it in conflict with anything this game has to offer nor set out to do.

>

> The point is, when you have a game that is mostly one thing (ie inclusive and casual), and then you have small portions that *exclude* players that *enjoy* that core gameplay, then it sets up a complete narrative conflict. It's like if you have Stardew Valley, but also it has some small portions about fighting off hordes of zombies. Or you have a game like Darksouls, but also there's this whole portion that's just a mindless clicker game for about an hour. Or you have a game like Overwatch, but if you want to get the *best* skins in the game, you need to first complete a rhythm based guitar solo minigame with perfect scores.

>

> Stay true to the core that works. You can have other elements for other players, but these should be PURELY optional, as in you would not miss out on *anything* by ignoring them. Claiming that players can just "ignore" that the raid content and rewards exist is just disingenuous at best. Provide an alternate path that does not involve raiding at all, or provide an easy mode that is accessible to general GW2 audiences.

 

It's staying true to the core of the franchise. You just don't want to accept it because it doesn't fit your warped "Narrative" of give me.

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> >The driving principle is not exclusivity, its freedom of choice - you pick a long term objective out of a sweety shop of long term objectives, all of which are time based..except for 1 single strand of content - raiding in its current form requires contiguous time blocks to learn and play properly.

>

> Yet there are less people (far less) that finished CM Fractals than are raiding and Fractal CMs have their own exclusive rewards.

> There are less people that finished Migraine (CM Mordremoth) than killed Xera in Raids, and Migraine has an exclusive reward.

> Winning a PVP Monthly Tournament has exclusive rewards and the number of players that have won one is tiny percentage.

>

> How are those "timed based" I wonder.

>

>

>

 

ummm no, interesting eh that the few things that are played the least for rewards don't fit into the GW classic reward model.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > I'm going to cross post this message I made back when the first Easy Mode discussion popped up on the new forum.

> > > > > > > "

> > > > > > > This is a debate I've been hearing since Vanilla World of Warcraft added Molten Core. I heard these arguments after Dark Souls became a smash success. And now I'm hearing it with GW2. Easy mode in raids would absolutely be unhealthy for GW2.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I've only started raiding in GW2 relatively recently. I joined a guild that advertised raid training and I really wanted that experience. For a long time, I didn't have a real guild outside of a couple of real life friends I played with. GW2 was for a long time a game that was actually pretty easy to mostly play on your own. And when Raids came out and I started getting really into the game again I really wanted to be a dedicated raider. About a couple of months ago I pulled the trigger and joined a raiding guild and I’ve never been happier playing the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And what makes raids appealing is the fact that they are exclusionary. More specifically, what makes raids appealing to me is the fact that I can be (And was for quite sometime) excluded from them because of the difficulty. I couldn't just solo my way through them or even reliably pug it. It was the same thing with Raiding in World of Warcraft. It was a very similar thing with Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. The fact that there is real risk that I can’t see the content is what makes the content exciting. It creates a sense of danger, anticipation, and a sense of accomplishment that you just can’t get otherwise. Even if there was an easy mode, and I never ever touched the easy mode and just did the hardmode, the fact that it's possible for me to hit a switch and see all the content removes all the tension and danger and fear of failure.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’ve never cared to get the achievement Migraine. Because I’ve already killed Mordremoth. I already know how that fight goes down. There’s just no interest in doing it for me. I’ve seen it all before. If Raids had an easy mode that I could have steamrolled, I would have 0 interest in doing them anymore. And I certainly wouldn’t have joined a raiding guild and become a part of a community. I have more more friends and people I play with in game because the exclusionary nature of raids forced me to finally stop being a loner and find and join other like minded players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Regarding the story, Deimos isn’t that interesting of a character because of his dialogue or his character arc. He’s interesting explicitly because he is incredibly difficulty and the mechanics of his fight. He’s incredibly threatening and extremely intimidating because he’s hard. If there was an easy mode players could just steamroll or a story mode then Deimos losing a huge part of his character. Without that, there’s little more to him than being a weird demon we’ve never seen before that’s mean to Saul. That’s it. Matthias would be a weird crazy mage and that's it. Xera would be a Mesmer you fight in a trippy arena and that's it. They'd be like Zhaitan or the Primordus / Balthazar encounter in Flashpoint. Cinematic fights with interesting things visually, but ultimately huge jokes. Their difficulty, the time players have had to spend mastering their fights, have actually manage to give these raid characters actual character. I'm always going to remember Matthias and Slothazor and Xera and Deimos. I couldn't tell you any of the named white mantle boss's names from Living World Season 3 aside from Caudecus himself. Because the difficulty makes the story and writing shine.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It was the same thing with WoW and Dark Souls. Ragnaros was only interesting and iconic because he was hard and it took so much work and group effort to fight and defeat him(Over at least a month if the guild is starting from scratch like mine did to get someone the reputation with the Hydraxian Waterlords high enough to fight him). Aside from that he was just a really, really large fire elemental . C’thun was only interesting because of how difficult of a fight he was . Ornstein and Smough are only interesting because of how difficult they are. If Dark Souls wasn’t hard, people would blow through that game in literally two or three hours their first playthrough and it wouldn’t leave anywhere near the impact it had on players and everyone would have forgotten about it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This might seem like a bit of a tangent, but I don't WvW. It's just not a game type I find interesting and will only dip my toe into it to get a Gift of Battle for a legendary weapon and that's it. And if WvW ever someday gets an update that adds new interesting things to it I'm not going to be upset about it. I think WvWers should have the coolest and most fun experience even if I don't ever set foot in a WvW map ever again. Warbringer is the coolest looking legendary backpack, but I'm never going to get it. And I'm fine with that. I don't want or need an easy mode that lets me immediately get the back pack, or lets me never have to fight other players or removing the possibility of dying while playing that content. If they add a new WvW map that's the coolest zone ever added to the game I'm not going to complain "Oh why can't they add a PvE version of this map. It's so unfair that WvW players get to run around this cool new zone that I don't get to enjoy because I don't WvW."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It seems like you have one section of the nonraiding crowd who wouldn't be happy unless raids were nothing more than wireframe hallways with fights against wireframe monsters with 0 value outside of their exact fight mechanics because "If all you want is hard content then that's all it should be." . Raids should be the coolest possible content they can possibly be in every regard, fights, zones, music and story. I think that should be true of every aspect of the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Another problem is that some players just don't want to put in the effort and try. You have people who are incredibly offended at the idea that you should use food and utilities in raids or fractals (And don't get me started on the people who get pissed that you ask that you use pots for Fractals) and consider the suggestion you telling them how to play and take away their free will and individuality. They look at things like meta builds as elitists telling them how to play, instead of the community and theory crafters coming together to try and help everyone see the content as easily as possible. People spend time theorycrafting, analyzing and testing stat sigil and rune combinations, crunching numbers, practicing rotations, doing practical runs of the raids for testing, and writing detailed guides on builds and strategies are for each class during each boss because they're trying to help you. They want you to kill the bosses and see the content. Not because they arbitrarily decided that warriors should use this playstyle and that all people must use this playstyle all the time because if you don't you're stupid and my build must be the most popular.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Guilds are always advertising that they provide raid training. You'll see raid training groups in LFG all the time. If you put in the effort to have a good build, to be able to pull off good rotations and provide good damage, if you show up to the group with food, you'll have a much better time.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > you do realise you are part of a minority don't you? this isn't wow, the guild wars ethos is not exclusivity at all.

> > > > >

> > > > > Endgame is always played by a minority. And exclusivity is always part of it. So while this indeed isn't WoW, the "ethos" you speak of never existed.

> > > >

> > > > People are confusing 'exclusivity' as a strategy and 'exclusive' gear/skins, very different things. The ethos exists in this and a couple other mmorpg (e.g eve/lotr/gw/eso). The principle is that the goal is not to have 'better' items than others that is tied exclusively to 1 type of content, but to provide satisfying long term goals/skins that spreads across a broad spectrum of content. That's different from saying each type of content has exclusive/unique content, which as it should be.

> > >

> > > Oh really? So how come all the long term goals/skins in this game are strictly tied to specific content?

> >

> > That's simply that skins are exclusive to content, i said that in my post. If you are looking at a single thing in isolation ( a skin, an item of gear e.g) ofc its exclusive. look at the thread of conversation, the chat was implying that GW should take a similar strategic approach as games like WOW. It does not and should not. Think of it this way, if wow was a mountain, it would get higher every year, and you only get the best stuff if you get to the top. The strategy is exclusivity - being top dog at the top of the mountain and you get to the top gear. This exclusivity is the hook that drives people. In GW2 that is not the strategic approach or ethos that Anet follow. Just like GW1, all gear at end game is or should be equal, and you pick your route to a desired skin. The driving principle is not exclusivity, its freedom of choice - you pick a long term objective out of a sweety shop of long term objectives, all of which are time based..except for 1 single strand of content - raiding in its current form requires contiguous time blocks to learn and play properly.

> >

> > Exclusivity:

> >

> > - the practice of excluding or not admitting other things.

> > - restriction to a particular person, group, or area.

> >

>

> But a route to your desired skin is exactly what you can't do. You can pick a route for the top-tier gear in respect to power. But skins? Nope.

 

um yes i can, legendary weapons (tick), wvw legendary (tick), spvp (tick) , other open world (tick), fractal (tick), crafting (tick).