ANet, please officially alter the three pillars

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > > > > I find it amusing how one of the OP's convoluted attempts to get open World envoy armor degrades into a semantics discussion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > With the latest AMA having a dev telling us raids are coming at a faster pace and the overall success of the latest wing I doubt raid exclusive rewards are going anywhere.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So they may as well cater to you and yours that still want to stick around.. hopefully you spend enough to pick up the tab.. PoF showed that you didn't.. so you all might want to get gud at that.

> > > > >

> > > > > You argument is basically a fallacy: people that can't or won't raid will quit because legendary armor is unachievable for them [citation needed] and that will lead in other words to the game's demise but you have no proof of that.

> > > > >

> > > > > You feel pretty strongly about raid subjects since most of your post history revolves around that but you gotta think logically: if raids aren't a good thing for the company why are they not only pumping more but will do so at a faster pace?, are they suicidal perhaps?, or perhaps they know things you don't, rather, we don't.

> > > >

> > > > Oh man I spit out my coffee laughing too hard.. you sincerely didn't know that stonewalling players will discourage them and drive them away from the game? For real?

> > >

> > > Since legendary armor isn't required for anything in any game mode and there are currently three ways to obtain it, you'd have to not play the vast majority of the game to not get it ever or not have the chance to get it at all. Raids are designed and advertised as challenging content so people that do or don't do them know what they are and what to expect.

> > >

> > > You're laughing because?, is the argument that you and a significant portion of the playerbase wants the skins but doesn't want to raid?, that's another fallacy.

> >

> > You don't seem to get it.. that's cool.

>

> There's nothing to get if you don't openly state what's your argument. I don't mind discussing it if you actually put in words what you want to convey. Just don't treat it as a fact because you as a player don't really have enough stats or objective evidence of anything.

 

OK. Guess you're right then.. everything is fine.

 

As I said.. Hope all future content is for all you hardcore players.. wishing you the only the best.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Evolute.6239" said:

> All of those things are harder than open world pve by a mile.

What exactly is hard about the WvW content? Its grindy but that's about it.

[Evolute.6239]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Evolute.6239" said:

> > All of those things are harder than open world pve by a mile.

> What exactly is hard about the WvW content? Its grindy but that's about it.

 

Getting the tickets is not hard, but committing yourself to getting diamond chest every week for however many weeks can be. It's by far the biggest time commitment out of all leg armors. PvP matches can be done in a weekend. Raids can be full cleared for 13 LI in 2 hours a week.

 

Getting Diamond chest in a week will take 10+ hours minimum per week.

 

sPVP doesn't take much "effort" either but it's still a 7-9 month timegate or whatever and can be done much more "casually"

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I don't understand why it's so important how someone calls WvW, if it's PvP, or it's own mode.

> What matters is that WvW and PvP have different teams working on them, and they are pretty much content that can be enjoyed on its own, hence separate content.

 

But the same is true of raids. And yet, people say "both WvW and PvP need their own Legendary armor, but open world PvE doesn't need any because they can get it from raids."

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Really? What was this "entire demographic" doing in the first few years of the game's life when getting a Legendary Weapon required an insane grind, doing specific events, finishing specific dungeons (hard at the time), playing more than enough WvW (no achievement rewards for badges)?

 

Even at their worst, getting Legendary weapons was considerably easier than Legendary armor. I have two Legendary weapons and could get a few more fairly casually, I could even buy a few on the TP if I wanted to (I don't). The same cannot be said for Legendary armor. I don't expect a method for Legendary armor that is less involved than Legendary weapons.

 

Although, it should be noted that during the "bad old days" I _was_ also pushing for legendary weapons to be made more affordable, mainly the issue there was the precursor methods, and they at least half fixed that with the precursor crafting.

 

>So tell me what were those casuals doing in the game for 2 and a half years?

 

Waiting until their map spawned in the necessary locations. You could get map completion from WvW without any actual "play" on your part, just running from point to point when they were already available. It just took patience.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > I don't understand why it's so important how someone calls WvW, if it's PvP, or it's own mode.

> > What matters is that WvW and PvP have different teams working on them, and they are pretty much content that can be enjoyed on its own, hence separate content.

>

> But the same is true of raids. And yet, people say "both WvW and PvP need their own Legendary armor, but open world PvE doesn't need any because they can get it from raids."

>

 

No it's not the same. WVW and PVP are separate modes that you can get all their rewards without ever leaving those modes of play. On the other hand to get the Envoy Armor you must do more open world PVE than actual raiding.

 

> Even at their worst, getting Legendary weapons was considerably easier than Legendary armor.

 

Easier is subjective. And the grind was real, I recall many threads from the so called "casuals" complaining about Legendary Weapon grind. Which leads to my question what they were doing in the game all that time.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I don't understand why it's so important how someone calls WvW, if it's PvP, or it's own mode.

> What matters is that WvW and PvP have different teams working on them, and they are pretty much content that can be enjoyed on its own, hence separate content.

Raids also have a separate team working on them and are a content that can be enjoyed on their own - hence they are separate from the rest of PvE. In fact, they were created because there was a group of players that specifically _didn't_ enjoy that rest of PvE.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > I don't understand why it's so important how someone calls WvW, if it's PvP, or it's own mode.

> > What matters is that WvW and PvP have different teams working on them, and they are pretty much content that can be enjoyed on its own, hence separate content.

> Raids also have a separate team working on them and are a content that can be enjoyed on their own - hence they are separate from the rest of PvE. In fact, they were created because there was a group of players that specifically _didn't_ enjoy that rest of PvE.

>

 

Already posted this, so I re-post:

> No it's not the same. WVW and PVP are separate modes that you can get all their rewards without ever leaving those modes of play. On the other hand to get the Envoy Armor you must do more open world PVE than actual raiding.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>No it's not the same. WVW and PVP are separate modes that you can get all their rewards without ever leaving those modes of play. On the other hand to get the Envoy Armor you must do more open world PVE than actual raiding.

 

An imbalance in one system does not justify an imbalance in another. I would be perfectly happy with the existing Envoy tracks being shifted to allow them to be completed without ever leaving a raid, if it mean that you could *also* complete the currently raid-only portions in the open world.

 

>Easier is subjective. And the grind was real, I recall many threads from the so called "casuals" complaining about Legendary Weapon grind. Which leads to my question what they were doing in the game all that time.

 

But again, the "grind" of it was basically in doing normal things that they would already be doing. It was only a "grind" if you were intend on getting it *right away* and concentrating your time on those activities. The problem with Legendary Armor, at the moment, is that I could continue playing from now for another five years, several hours a day, every single day, and be no closer to earning Envoy armor than I am right now, because nothing I have any interest in doing would progress that goal.

 

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> I still stand by what I said.. The direction that Anet is going in will alienate the Casual player bases, I wager a good chunk already accept that they are just "goofing off here" and don't see any long term staying power with this game for them. So Anet may as well try their best to keep you and yours.

 

I'm calling BS on this, I've been here since before release, I did a little WvW in the beginning, somewhere along the way I did some PvP(don't even remember it, don't like it). You'd call me a casual-hardcore because I use up almost all of my leisure hours to play this game...well I'm telling you that I'm not anywhere close to be a hardcore-casual. I'm a casual player, I play to de-stress, kill fake enemies, the story and to relax; I don't have a single Legendary, I don't care about Legendary's...it took me until just this year to max all my crafting disciplines and to start making Ascended items. I have stepped foot inside a Raid by myself, just to see what the inside looked like...I took almost a full year away from this game during LS1 because I didn't like it(and I saw it before most others did). IF I wanted Legendary armor, specifically the Envoy one you seem to want then I would do the Raids, only I wouldn't do them with the normal Raid crowd because I know I don't fit in, I don't meet their criteria...and that doesn't bother me one bit, I play the way I want to play...in all modes, that's how this game was designed and that's how it works. HoT, I still haven't finished the last story instance against Mordremoth, and I doubt if I ever will, do I care...not in the least, but I've managed to kill Balthazar twice already(though that's probably the most I'll do with that one). I have 8 of those gifts from getting World Completion, I now have the 4/5 from the HoT maps(1 of each) that I'm keeping as keepsakes, because I have no intention of making a Legendary Weapon nor do I care about Legendary Armor, if I did care about the LA then I'd do what is required to get it in PvE, and if that included Raids...so be it.

[Seera.5916]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> I still stand by what I said.. The direction that Anet is going in will alienate the Casual player bases, I wager a good chunk already accept that they are just "goofing off here" and don't see any long term staying power with this game for them. So Anet may as well try their best to keep you and yours.

 

You're assuming the casuals care about getting legendary armor.

 

Their direction isn't alienating me and I'm a casual. I know not everything that is put into this game will be for casual players. There are hard core players that play the game, too and they deserve some content aimed at them.

 

Oh and casuals can think of making a legendary a lot sooner than 2 years. I knew I was going for a legendary from day 1. It took me a few months to decide on which one. And due to several breaks because I jump from game to game (my main go to games are Sims games - so I'm fully into Fashion Wars), I finished my first legendary weapon - Meteorlogicus earlier this year and I'm already got my eye on making another one - Incinerator. Given my current progress, it will be a few years before I finish that one. And that's just fine. It's my long term goal.

 

I'm also still working on my first set of Ascended armor...

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Seera.5916" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > I still stand by what I said.. The direction that Anet is going in will alienate the Casual player bases, I wager a good chunk already accept that they are just "goofing off here" and don't see any long term staying power with this game for them. So Anet may as well try their best to keep you and yours.

>

> You're assuming the casuals care about getting legendary armor.

>

> Their direction isn't alienating me and I'm a casual. I know not everything that is put into this game will be for casual players. There are hard core players that play the game, too and they deserve some content aimed at them.

>

> Oh and casuals can think of making a legendary a lot sooner than 2 years. I knew I was going for a legendary from day 1. It took me a few months to decide on which one. And due to several breaks because I jump from game to game (my main go to games are Sims games - so I'm fully into Fashion Wars), I finished my first legendary weapon - Meteorlogicus earlier this year and I'm already got my eye on making another one - Incinerator. Given my current progress, it will be a few years before I finish that one. And that's just fine. It's my long term goal.

>

> I'm also still working on my first set of Ascended armor...

 

The fact that you were into getting a legendary weapon from the start, and claim to be a casual, is self evident that casuals will and do look into getting Legendary Items, Just because you are still looking at the weapons, does not mean others are not more fixated with the armor.

 

So yes.. you are living proof that Casuals can, do, and will be looking into Legendary Items to progress their game and give themselves long term goals.

 

I also stand by what I said about putting the goal behind the Raid will discourage them, and without those long term goals, they will simply mull about for a while till finally moving on.

 

But.. you know. What I think really does not matter. If I am right, what does it matter, if I am wrong.. again, what does it matter. But think of this way, if Anet caters to the hard core players as I suggested, you are fine with it, so.. wherein is the problem for you?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

More 'doom and gloom...the game will die' if flavor-of-the-post demand isn't met.

 

So far, none of these dire predictions have seemed to come true.

[Seera.5916]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Seera.5916" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > I still stand by what I said.. The direction that Anet is going in will alienate the Casual player bases, I wager a good chunk already accept that they are just "goofing off here" and don't see any long term staying power with this game for them. So Anet may as well try their best to keep you and yours.

> >

> > You're assuming the casuals care about getting legendary armor.

> >

> > Their direction isn't alienating me and I'm a casual. I know not everything that is put into this game will be for casual players. There are hard core players that play the game, too and they deserve some content aimed at them.

> >

> > Oh and casuals can think of making a legendary a lot sooner than 2 years. I knew I was going for a legendary from day 1. It took me a few months to decide on which one. And due to several breaks because I jump from game to game (my main go to games are Sims games - so I'm fully into Fashion Wars), I finished my first legendary weapon - Meteorlogicus earlier this year and I'm already got my eye on making another one - Incinerator. Given my current progress, it will be a few years before I finish that one. And that's just fine. It's my long term goal.

> >

> > I'm also still working on my first set of Ascended armor...

>

> The fact that you were into getting a legendary weapon from the start, and claim to be a casual, is self evident that casuals will and do look into getting Legendary Items, Just because you are still looking at the weapons, does not mean others are not more fixated with the armor.

>

> So yes.. you are living proof that Casuals can, do, and will be looking into Legendary Items to progress their game and give themselves long term goals.

>

> I also stand by what I said about putting the goal behind the Raid will discourage them, and without those long term goals, they will simply mull about for a while till finally moving on.

>

> But.. you know. What I think really does not matter. If I am right, what does it matter, if I am wrong.. again, what does it matter. But think of this way, if Anet caters to the hard core players as I suggested, you are fine with it, so.. wherein is the problem for you?

 

There you go assuming that casuals' have a long term goal of legendary envoy armor again.

 

Considering most posts I've seen are saying the armor is ugly for most weights and most people agreeing, I'd assume that most players going for legendary armor are probably not going for envoy armor if they aren't interested in raiding given that at least WvW is a little more easier to progress than raids, if not PvP as well (I've never played PvP nor desire to do so, so can't say how easy or hard it is to progress towards the armor there).

 

Here's my assumption: most casuals don't care enough about what rewards are locked behind raids for it to discourage them. They've got enough long term goals currently available and more will be added. Therefore, ANet's current decision to focus a little more on hard core players will not have any major impact on the casual player base. And I believe that what isn't broke shouldn't be fixed.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Seera.5916" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Seera.5916" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > I still stand by what I said.. The direction that Anet is going in will alienate the Casual player bases, I wager a good chunk already accept that they are just "goofing off here" and don't see any long term staying power with this game for them. So Anet may as well try their best to keep you and yours.

> > >

> > > You're assuming the casuals care about getting legendary armor.

> > >

> > > Their direction isn't alienating me and I'm a casual. I know not everything that is put into this game will be for casual players. There are hard core players that play the game, too and they deserve some content aimed at them.

> > >

> > > Oh and casuals can think of making a legendary a lot sooner than 2 years. I knew I was going for a legendary from day 1. It took me a few months to decide on which one. And due to several breaks because I jump from game to game (my main go to games are Sims games - so I'm fully into Fashion Wars), I finished my first legendary weapon - Meteorlogicus earlier this year and I'm already got my eye on making another one - Incinerator. Given my current progress, it will be a few years before I finish that one. And that's just fine. It's my long term goal.

> > >

> > > I'm also still working on my first set of Ascended armor...

> >

> > The fact that you were into getting a legendary weapon from the start, and claim to be a casual, is self evident that casuals will and do look into getting Legendary Items, Just because you are still looking at the weapons, does not mean others are not more fixated with the armor.

> >

> > So yes.. you are living proof that Casuals can, do, and will be looking into Legendary Items to progress their game and give themselves long term goals.

> >

> > I also stand by what I said about putting the goal behind the Raid will discourage them, and without those long term goals, they will simply mull about for a while till finally moving on.

> >

> > But.. you know. What I think really does not matter. If I am right, what does it matter, if I am wrong.. again, what does it matter. But think of this way, if Anet caters to the hard core players as I suggested, you are fine with it, so.. wherein is the problem for you?

>

> There you go assuming that casuals' have a long term goal of legendary envoy armor again.

> > Considering most posts I've seen are saying the armor is ugly for most weights and most people agreeing, I'd assume that most players going for legendary armor are probably not going for envoy armor if they aren't interested in raiding given that at least WvW is a little more easier to progress than raids, if not PvP as well (I've never played PvP nor desire to do so, so can't say how easy or hard it is to progress towards the armor there).

>

> Here's my assumption: most casuals don't care enough about what rewards are locked behind raids for it to discourage them. They've got enough long term goals currently available and more will be added. Therefore, ANet's current decision to focus a little more on hard core players will not have any major impact on the casual player base. And I believe that what isn't broke shouldn't be fixed.

 

I agree here. I’m a casual that likes her long term goals and having the Envoy armour in raids doesn’t bother me because;

The skins are fugly.

If I wanted to work on a legendary set, I’d do it in PvP, purely because of the first reason.

 

It’s really that simple, Anet added content to cater to the hardcore crowd, and gave unique rewards for it. WvW has unique rewards and so does PvP. There is no problem.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Seera.5916" said:

>You're assuming the casuals care about getting legendary armor.

 

It's a safe assumption. There's no reason why casuals *wouldn't* care about getting legendary armor. The only difference between a casual and a hardcore player in that regard is that a casual is less likely to care *enough* that it would be *worth* the effort to them if that effort is exceptional. So long as it's something they can work towards slowly and steadily, in a casual manner, I'm sure many would do so.

 

>Considering most posts I've seen are saying the armor is ugly for most weights and most people agreeing, I'd assume that most players going for legendary armor are probably not going for envoy armor

 

*I* think that most of the weights are ugly. That's beside the point. The ones that aren't ugly are still nice enough. I mean, personally, if you handed me three full sets of Legendary armor tomorrow, then the only one I would wear a mostly-full set of would be heavy, and then I might wear a few bits and pieces of the other two on various characters. It's the same thing I did with Lumi armor. But I still want the bits I want.

 

>Here's my assumption: most casuals don't care enough about what rewards are locked behind raids for it to discourage them.

 

It's more of an existential nihilism, seeing that the only way to obtain "legendary armor skins" is via an activity that most players want no part of. It's basically like a factory town worker seeing the factory jobs moving out of town.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> But again, the "grind" of it was basically in doing normal things that they would already be doing. It was only a "grind" if you were intend on getting it *right away* and concentrating your time on those activities. The problem with Legendary Armor, at the moment, is that I could continue playing from now for another five years, several hours a day, every single day, and be no closer to earning Envoy armor than I am right now, because nothing I have any interest in doing would progress that goal.

>

 

That's irrelevant and you know full well that true "Casual" players gave up on legendary weapons a long time ago.

It's the hardcore/casuals that care, and I'd like to know how many of you exist in the first place.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > But again, the "grind" of it was basically in doing normal things that they would already be doing. It was only a "grind" if you were intend on getting it *right away* and concentrating your time on those activities. The problem with Legendary Armor, at the moment, is that I could continue playing from now for another five years, several hours a day, every single day, and be no closer to earning Envoy armor than I am right now, because nothing I have any interest in doing would progress that goal.

> >

>

> That's irrelevant and you know full well that true "Casual" players gave up on legendary weapons a long time ago.

> It's the hardcore/casuals that care, and I'd like to know how many of you exist in the first place.

 

Are we seriously redefining casual play now? Jesus... I consider a casual who plays less than 14hrs/ week. Goals don’t change that.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > But again, the "grind" of it was basically in doing normal things that they would already be doing. It was only a "grind" if you were intend on getting it *right away* and concentrating your time on those activities. The problem with Legendary Armor, at the moment, is that I could continue playing from now for another five years, several hours a day, every single day, and be no closer to earning Envoy armor than I am right now, because nothing I have any interest in doing would progress that goal.

> > >

> >

> > That's irrelevant and you know full well that true "Casual" players gave up on legendary weapons a long time ago.

> > It's the hardcore/casuals that care, and I'd like to know how many of you exist in the first place.

>

> Are we seriously redefining casual play now? Jesus... I consider a casual who plays less than 14hrs/ week. Goals don’t change that.

 

You got an actual definition of "casual"?

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > But again, the "grind" of it was basically in doing normal things that they would already be doing. It was only a "grind" if you were intend on getting it *right away* and concentrating your time on those activities. The problem with Legendary Armor, at the moment, is that I could continue playing from now for another five years, several hours a day, every single day, and be no closer to earning Envoy armor than I am right now, because nothing I have any interest in doing would progress that goal.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That's irrelevant and you know full well that true "Casual" players gave up on legendary weapons a long time ago.

> > > It's the hardcore/casuals that care, and I'd like to know how many of you exist in the first place.

> >

> > Are we seriously redefining casual play now? Jesus... I consider a casual who plays less than 14hrs/ week. Goals don’t change that.

>

> You got an actual definition of "casual"?

 

You quoted it...

You got an actual definition of hardcore casual?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > But again, the "grind" of it was basically in doing normal things that they would already be doing. It was only a "grind" if you were intend on getting it *right away* and concentrating your time on those activities. The problem with Legendary Armor, at the moment, is that I could continue playing from now for another five years, several hours a day, every single day, and be no closer to earning Envoy armor than I am right now, because nothing I have any interest in doing would progress that goal.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > That's irrelevant and you know full well that true "Casual" players gave up on legendary weapons a long time ago.

> > > > It's the hardcore/casuals that care, and I'd like to know how many of you exist in the first place.

> > >

> > > Are we seriously redefining casual play now? Jesus... I consider a casual who plays less than 14hrs/ week. Goals don’t change that.

> >

> > You got an actual definition of "casual"?

>

> You got an actual definition of hardcore casual?

 

Someone who spends a lot of their time playing a video game (posting on the game's forums and engaging in discussions is a plus)

A player that plays 4h/day Minesweeper is a hardcore casual, they play a casual/easy game, but they play too much of it, so they are no longer just casual.

A player that plays Guild Wars 2 a lot of hours per day, but engages in simple farming activities is also no longer just a casual.

 

In order to get a Legendary Weapon you need to engage into farming activities (unless you use a credit card), therefore a player who is not farming, won't get a Legendary Weapon (only in a very long time). Hardcore farming to get the gold/materials needed for a Legendary is not a casual activity, no matter how easy the activity itself is.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > But again, the "grind" of it was basically in doing normal things that they would already be doing. It was only a "grind" if you were intend on getting it *right away* and concentrating your time on those activities. The problem with Legendary Armor, at the moment, is that I could continue playing from now for another five years, several hours a day, every single day, and be no closer to earning Envoy armor than I am right now, because nothing I have any interest in doing would progress that goal.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > That's irrelevant and you know full well that true "Casual" players gave up on legendary weapons a long time ago.

> > > > > It's the hardcore/casuals that care, and I'd like to know how many of you exist in the first place.

> > > >

> > > > Are we seriously redefining casual play now? Jesus... I consider a casual who plays less than 14hrs/ week. Goals don’t change that.

> > >

> > > You got an actual definition of "casual"?

> >

> > You got an actual definition of hardcore casual?

>

> Someone who spends a lot of their time playing a video game (posting on the game's forums and engaging in discussions is a plus)

> A player that plays 4h/day Minesweeper is a hardcore casual, they play a casual/easy game, but they play too much of it, so they are no longer just casual.

> A player that plays Guild Wars 2 a lot of hours per day, but engages in simple farming activities is also no longer just a casual.

>

> In order to get a Legendary Weapon you need to engage into farming activities (unless you use a credit card), therefore a player who is not farming, won't get a Legendary Weapon (only in a very long time). Hardcore farming to get the gold/materials needed for a Legendary is not a casual activity, no matter how easy the activity itself is.

 

So why should all that come easy to Ohoni? XD since owPvE is basically the turf of the casual player. Funny thing is I doubt there would be a problem if the Perfected Envoy skins came on ascended armor. It’s the fact it’s legendary. It’s a unique raid reward. That’s it.

 

You also realise that some casuals do just gather and farm as a means to relax? Some of my guildies do it. They find it therapeutic, they are by no means hardcore at all.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> So why should all that come easy to Ohoni? XD since owPvE is basically the turf of the casual player. Funny thing is I doubt there would be a problem if the Perfected Envoy skins came on ascended armor. It’s the fact it’s legendary. It’s a unique raid reward. That’s it.

>

 

First, just because someone is playing "easy content" doesn't make them a casual. The difference between "just playing" and "actively farming" towards a goal is staggering. Actively farming requires commitment, requires long hours, requires investment in the game to know where to get what you need and/or chasing timers to do so. Those all are not characteristics of an actual casual player. I gave you the example of Minesweeper, it's a very casual game, but someone who plays it for too many hours a day and tries to find efficient strategies and ways to beat it making high score timers, is no longer a casual player.

 

Second, if you've noticed, in order to get that Envoy skin you must play more Open World PVE than actual Raids to get it.

That's the difference between these "pillars" as they call them. The WvW and PvP armors are available exclusively in their respective modes, while the Raid skin requires a LOT of open world PVE to get, that's why there are 3 versions of legendary armor in the first place, the PVE, PVP and WVW version.

Raids ARE PVE, while WVW and PVP are not the same.

And besides, someone who is raiding must do open world PVE for other things too, they need to play open world PVE to unlock their elite specs, they need to play open world PVE to unlock the mastery abilities, mounts/gliding and so on. A PVP/WVW player doesn't need to get out of their "zone" to unlock elite specs, nor a mastery is required to play. As a WVW player you might need to spend a tiny amount of time to unlock your glider and that's it.

The big difference between WVW, PVP and Raids, is that the first two are fully contained experiences, while Raids cannot function alone.

And the other big difference between them is that WVW and PVP as modes are available 24/7 while Raid bosses have value only once per week, Raids are not fully separate content. They ARE a part of PVE and not a completely separate entity.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > So why should all that come easy to Ohoni? XD since owPvE is basically the turf of the casual player. Funny thing is I doubt there would be a problem if the Perfected Envoy skins came on ascended armor. It’s the fact it’s legendary. It’s a unique raid reward. That’s it.

> >

>

> First, just because someone is playing "easy content" doesn't make them a casual. The difference between "just playing" and "actively farming" towards a goal is staggering. Actively farming requires commitment, requires long hours, requires investment in the game to know where to get what you need and/or chasing timers to do so. Those all are not characteristics of an actual casual player. I gave you the example of Minesweeper, it's a very casual game, but someone who plays it for too many hours a day and tries to find efficient strategies and ways to beat it making high score timers, is no longer a casual player.

>

> Second, if you've noticed, in order to get that Envoy skin you must play more Open World PVE than actual Raids to get it.

> That's the difference between these "pillars" as they call them. The WvW and PvP armors are available exclusively in their respective modes, while the Raid skin requires a LOT of open world PVE to get, that's why there are 3 versions of legendary armor in the first place, the PVE, PVP and WVW version.

> Raids ARE PVE, while WVW and PVP are not the same.

> And besides, someone who is raiding must do open world PVE for other things too, they need to play open world PVE to unlock their elite specs, they need to play open world PVE to unlock the mastery abilities, mounts/gliding and so on. A PVP/WVW player doesn't need to get out of their "zone" to unlock elite specs, nor a mastery is required to play. As a WVW player you might need to spend a tiny amount of time to unlock your glider and that's it.

> The big difference between WVW, PVP and Raids, is that the first two are fully contained experiences, while Raids cannot function alone.

> And the other big difference between them is that WVW and PVP as modes are available 24/7 while Raid bosses have value only once per week, Raids are not fully separate content. They ARE a part of PVE and not a completely separate entity.

 

Skirmish tickets have a weekly cap

Ascended Shards of Glory are limited to be earned in seasons. So these are time-gated values as well, which seem inline with the raid boss weekly cap.

 

Raids are a part of PvE, you said it. That’s why other PvE stuff is required for the armor.

 

Which is why nothing needs to change or be added when it comes to legendary armor.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>That's irrelevant and you know full well that true "Casual" players gave up on legendary weapons a long time ago.

 

Evidence? I think a lot of people have at least one Legendary weapon by this point. I got my first well before HoT came out. I'm not asking for anything crazy here, just Legendary armor that's more in line with Legendary weapons.

 

>Someone who spends a lot of their time playing a video game (posting on the game's forums and engaging in discussions is a plus)

>A player that plays 4h/day Minesweeper is a hardcore casual, they play a casual/easy game, but they play too much of it, so they are no longer just casual.

>A player that plays Guild Wars 2 a lot of hours per day, but engages in simple farming activities is also no longer just a casual.

 

The issue is that there are several varieties of "casual," and none of them are more "true" a casual than others. There are time casuals, who only spend an hour or two in the game, maybe less than 7 days a week, but maybe they take on the hardest content available during that time. There are challenge casuals, who spend as much time in the game as anyone, but avoid high-end challenge. I think either is fine, as well as anything in between or more specific than that, and they should all have some paths available to them. The time-casual could trade higher challenge for higher progression speed, while the challenge casual could trade lower challenge for longer completion cycles.

 

>In order to get a Legendary Weapon you need to engage into farming activities (unless you use a credit card), therefore a player who is not farming, won't get a Legendary Weapon (only in a very long time).

 

The farming needed for Legendaries is not exceptional. I spent little time deliberately farming resources and yet had most of what I needed to make my first and a good chunk of what I needed for my second, and gold covered the rest. Either of the casuals above could have managed it, and even a "double casual," a low challenge, low time spent player could still work towards it and get there eventually.

 

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> Funny thing is I doubt there would be a problem if the Perfected Envoy skins came on ascended armor. It’s the fact it’s legendary. It’s a unique raid reward. That’s it.

 

I'm on record as being 100% on board for being able to unlock JUST the skins, no purple-tagged armor attached.

 

Of course, I also think that the game should move away from armor-based stats and just let PvE use PvP-medallion style stat swapping, which would negate the practical advantages of Legendary armor anyway, but that's a separate topic.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>Actively farming requires commitment, requires long hours, requires investment in the game to know where to get what you need and/or chasing timers to do so.

 

It really doesn't. Even if you're talking about the Precursor crafting, when I made Bifrost that way a few months after HoT dropped, the actual crafting process, the acquiring of things I didn't already have that were specific to the quest, only took me a couple days.

 

>I gave you the example of Minesweeper, it's a very casual game, but someone who plays it for too many hours a day and tries to find efficient strategies and ways to beat it making high score timers, is no longer a casual player.

 

You can be a casual player and ALSO be aware of which game you're logged into. Following a simple guide in how to earn an achievement is not some insurmountable task. Casuals aren't those people in Wall-E.

 

>Second, if you've noticed, in order to get that Envoy skin you must play more Open World PVE than actual Raids to get it.

 

But if you do zero raiding then they are infinitely far away. I'm fine with keeping all the existing non-raid requirements, I'm just asking for optional non-raid substitutions for the raid-only components.

 

Now, if you want to argue that raiders should not have to spend at much time outside of raids as they currently do, that there should be raid-based ways of earning that other stuff, then that's a separate topic entirely, but I would fully support you in it.

 

 

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Evidence? I think a lot of people have at least one Legendary weapon by this point. I got my first well before HoT came out. I'm not asking for anything crazy here, just Legendary armor that's more in line with Legendary weapons.

>

 

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendarySkinsWeapon

Remember the players on gw2efficiency are the most hardcore players in existence, yet Legendary Weapon skins start at 41%, this includes the G1 Legendary weapons too, the players had 5 years to craft them. If the hardcore players are at 41% the casual players should be much lower.

 

> The farming needed for Legendaries is not exceptional. I spent little time deliberately farming resources and yet had most of what I needed to make my first and a good chunk of what I needed for my second, and gold covered the rest. Either of the casuals above could have managed it, and even a "double casual," a low challenge, low time spent player could still work towards it and get there eventually.

>

 

If the farming isn't exceptional then why is it that so few (hardcore) people have Legendary weapons, even though they had 5 years to farm for them.

 

> Now, if you want to argue that raiders should not have to spend at much time outside of raids as they currently do, that there should be raid-based ways of earning that other stuff, then that's a separate topic entirely, but I would fully support you in it.

>

 

It's not a separate topic at all, you can't call Raids a separate pillar when you spend more time in the Open World than in Raids, when you need to Raid. And then you go on and say that WVW and PVP are the same when you can play both without ever touching the other, or Open World, or Raids, or Fractals.

 

I think by what you've said so far that you are by no means a casual player. You think you are a casual because you play the more "casual" parts of the game, but that doesn't make you a casual. You don't want legendary armor skins for all casual players, but for players like you, a hybrid between the two. And since you offered the polls of these forums as "evidence" of more people liking Open World, I'd say that those are irrelevant. How many of those players who prefer open world pve HAVE a Legendary Weapon? That's the part of the playerbase you want to give Legendary Armor access to and I wonder how many they actually are to warrant a change by Arenanet.