Protection and Regeneration boons rework

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > After reading all the comments above let me go through the steps again with some of the feedback in mind:

> > >

> > > **2.** Let me elaborate a bit more on this. At the very moment, Chrono is undisputed meta in high-end PvE and has been for a while now. And it's not _just_ because of 1 or 2 niche areas that they're good at, it's because they're _the absolute best_ in multiple areas and _very good_ in even more areas. Enchant removal is one of them. In my opinion, it wouldn't hurt (PvE) balance, if for the mesmer this could be a bit toned down ... they still have many areas left at which they still would rule the playing field! Also, without buffing the Necro this would make them (and the Spellbreaker) more important in at least that area.

> > > Nerfing Mind Spike would only be a start! I actually believe even more disenchant skills from the mesmer need a nerf (sorry mesmers, I know, I really have it coming for you ... this while atm I play most on my mesmer (mainly to avoid kicks in Fractals and Raids) :) )!

> > > BUT ... I wouldn't mind if they receive buffs as well, but in a complete different area and obviously in moderation (we don't want to give them _another_ top pick area). E.g.: Mind Spike gets a couple of stacks of (the new) Vulnerability on top of it. Or maybe a _very_ short Immobilize. All up for discussion of course!

> >

> > Cyninja already commented on everything else, but I need to come back to this. Do you even know why chrono is near mandatory in raids and T4 fractals? Because its not the boon strip on Sword auto. That's literally just icing on the cake. Its SoI and Inspiring Distortion. Without SoI chrono would lose a TON of group utility. Without Inspiring distortion, it would lose the ability to distort the group through mechanics. Nerfing mind spike will do absolutely nothing to touch this.

> >

> > But even if it did, why are you so hellbent on destroying mesmer in the first place? You just admitted you want to remove nearly all of our boon strip, for no reason other than you don't want mesmer to be good at it.

>

> Normally I wouldn't respond to posts like these that only has an intention to be negative. These kind of posts are not there to state an opinion or give constructive feedback, they just want to pick a fight. But in this/your case ... you ask me a question, so let me just answer that:

> Maybe .... if you really read my posts you could've told already that I'm NOT "hellbent on destroying the mesmer". Don't you think it's kinda contradictory, that I only take the "icing on the cake" as you so eloquently put it, and want to destroy the mesmer with that??? That doesn't make any sense!!! Oh wait, you've already explained that! So actually you answered your own question already!

> Anywho, just to repeat myself (and give this thread a bump: thanks for that): I do not want to destroy the mesmer (hack, I play it myself the most right now), I want to tone it down just a little bit (as mentioned before, even in my OP ...).

 

Toning it down by removing a non essential feature which has more to do with the classes basic idea (control of the opponents actions). But that's beside the point. The reason people disagree (myself included) is your argumentation.

 

You focus on mesmer and ask for removal of something which is essentially bread into the classes basic idea while being fine with necromancer being far superior in this same regard.

 

Your offered solution does nothing to improve raid composition or group finding. On the contrary, it makes a non-issue a new issue. It forces a stricter meta while at the same time completely ignoring 2 game modes (spvp and wvw).

 

You literally spent 2 minutes looking at what necromancer is strong at, then looked at how that could be implemented via a forceful nature into the raiding game, then decided to gut other classes which would hinder your desire to force people to take necromancer along. That's not balance, that's favor-ism and people are calling you out on it.

[Lalainnia.3598]

Much as I would personally love to take a spellbreaker for something any amount of boon application can easily be handled by a scourge at a consistent rate with a trait swap, utility change, or even a different weapon swap offhand. Even if you were to take off boon rip on mesmer AA they would find other ways to do it either with dis chanter or null field. Heck even condi revs have boon removal that can be spammed at the cost of energy if needed.

[Sublimatio.6981]

so OP suggests condi renegade should be meta for boonstrip or that chronos need to take disenchanters. great design.

 

there are better ways to make necro meta in pve without touching PvP, these ideas have been posted on this and on the old forum and ignored for years. why? well my guess is because they dont care and dont play necro on any more than casual open-world level. there are no tryhard necros at arenanet, or at least the designers arent. in my opinion, all the text me and many others have put out about improving necro has been seen by the devs and deemed "too op"/"asking too much" but the thing is we are talking about the worst class you have in your game, of course you need to fix it by something huge and impactful. NECRO IS MEME FOR A REASON and buffing axe by 5% wont cut it. there are core problems, lack of blasts, evades, mobility, panic button, substantial buff for a party (at least make vampiric aura crit), lets not even get me started about staff or lich form.

 

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> You literally spent 2 minutes looking at what necromancer is strong at, then looked at how that could be implemented via a forceful nature into the raiding game, then decided to gut other classes which would hinder your desire to force people to take necromancer along. That's not balance, that's favor-ism and people are calling you out on it.

 

As I (also) said before, you're right, I **am** favoring the Necro (and Spellbreaker as well by the 'coincidence' of it), I'm not making a secret out of that at all. And I mostly do this for 2 reasons: 1. because it's my main (egocentric, I know ... but aren't we all, the only difference might be that I actually admit it!), 2. because I've got a thing for under performing classes in raids and t4 fractals.

Hell, for the fun of it, let me just 'tweak' my 'toning down' viewpoint and get into 'full destruction' mode: If we consider **time** into the balancing equation, it wouldnt be even that unfair (knowing that perfect balance = a myth), to completely nerf the mesmer: making them nearly impossible to share alacrity, delete SoI from the game, and while we at it remove sharing distortion as well. The funny thing is, this would still leave the mesmer in the so-called infamous 'viable' state, just not optimal (oh, how many times I've heard _this_ before as a Necro main :) ); Then: delete all spirits and spotter from the ranger and cut their healing in half; remove banners from the Warrior; and cut the Ele's raw DPS (in total) with 25% at least ... all leaving them still in this lovely 'viable' state, _just not optimal_ ... It will probably (completely out of context of course, but hey, like I said, destructive mode, right now) completely shift the Raids and t4 fractals meta to Thief, Engineer, Revenant, Necro and Guardian with the occasional Ranger/Soulbeast, Spellbreaker and maybe even a Condi Mirage ... well, because they're still viable of course ... you see what I did there!!!

Anyway, * destructive mode --> off * again, cause I think (or hope) that no-one (including me) really wants to have ANet to go completely overboard like _that_, although the funny thing is, it wouldn't even be _that_ unfair, if you took the factor of **time (history)** into consideration when trying to balance the classes (in raids and fractals).

 

But back to what I really want: is mostly positively changing a few things that **might** (might is really the word here!) change the meta just a tiny bit, or at least make under-performing classes like the Necro a little bit more interesting ...

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> completely ignoring 2 game modes (spvp and wvw).

I'm a _huge_ supporter of balancing game modes _completely_ separately, and ANet already proved that they **can** as well! So, for all I care, you can see them as complete different games even, at least balancing-wise! If I want changes in sPvP and WvW (which I both played a lot before, just not that much at the very moment), I post these in the different forums, and don't even be surprised if I would ask for nerfs on the Necro (actually: Scourge) there!

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > You literally spent 2 minutes looking at what necromancer is strong at, then looked at how that could be implemented via a forceful nature into the raiding game, then decided to gut other classes which would hinder your desire to force people to take necromancer along. That's not balance, that's favor-ism and people are calling you out on it.

>

> As I (also) said before, you're right, I **am** favoring the Necro (and Spellbreaker as well by the 'coincidence' of it), I'm not making a secret out of that at all. And I mostly do this for 2 reasons: 1. because it's my main (egocentric, I know ... but aren't we all, the only difference might be that I actually admit it!), 2. because I've got a thing for under performing classes in raids and t4 fractals.

> Hell, for the fun of it, let me just 'tweak' my 'toning down' viewpoint and get into 'full destruction' mode: If we consider **time** into the balancing equation, it wouldnt be even that unfair (knowing that perfect balance = a myth), to completely nerf the mesmer: making them nearly impossible to share alacrity, delete SoI from the game, and while we at it remove sharing distortion as well. The funny thing is, this would still leave the mesmer in the so-called infamous 'viable' state, just not optimal (oh, how many times I've heard _this_ before as a Necro main :) ); Then: delete all spirits and spotter from the ranger and cut their healing in half; remove banners from the Warrior; and cut the Ele's raw DPS (in total) with 25% at least ... all leaving them still in this lovely 'viable' state, _just not optimal_ ... It will probably (completely out of context of course, but hey, like I said, destructive mode, right now) completely shift the Raids and t4 fractals meta to Thief, Engineer, Revenant, Necro and Guardian with the occasional Ranger/Soulbeast, Spellbreaker and maybe even a Condi Mirage ... well, because they're still viable of course ... you see what I did there!!!

> Anyway, * destructive mode --> off * again, cause I think (or hope) that no-one (including me) really wants to have ANet to go completely overboard like _that_, although the funny thing is, it wouldn't even be _that_ unfair, if you took the factor of **time (history)** into consideration when trying to balance the classes (in raids and fractals).

>

> But back to what I really want: is mostly positively changing a few things that **might** (might is really the word here!) change the meta just a tiny bit, or at least make under-performing classes like the Necro a little bit more interesting ...

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > completely ignoring 2 game modes (spvp and wvw).

> I'm a _huge_ supporter of balancing game modes _completely_ separately, and ANet already proved that they **can** as well! So, for all I care, you can see them as complete different games even, at least balancing-wise! If I want changes in sPvP and WvW (which I both played a lot before, just not that much at the very moment), I post these in the different forums, and don't even be surprised if I would ask for nerfs on the Necro (actually: Scourge) there!

 

I'm not sure what your over the top nonsense is supposed to prove. Not only are some of your suggestions (like druid healing) idiotic (druids are some of the weakest healers in game at the moment and their healing power is certainly not the reason they get taken along) but I fail to see how you going over the top disproves my point.

 

Yes, we could tear down the entire system. Remake the entire game. Re-balance all the classes. That's not a realistic approach and would solve nothing. It would merely change the current meta to a new setup. Let's assume necromancer is not part of the new meta, do we start from scratch again until it is? I'm really not getting your point here besides sidetracking.

 

The point was: you are taking 0 consideration about class composition and effects of changes to the meta besides getting necromancer in which is again evident by how you approach the issue (take apart all classes that are not necro and blow up the current meta).

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> there are better ways to make necro meta in PvE without touching PvP, these ideas have been posted on this and on the old forum and ignored for years.

That's exactly why I now try this seemingly small change request under a wrapper of making underused boons more interesting and toning down the mesmer a bit.

I've also suggested changes starting from big DPS buffs, i.e. making the Necro the absolute king of condi (in most games the elemental and dark classes are the two main DPS classes .... in GW2 it's only the first one ...) up to a complete overhaul of the Necro in its core design. I also agree on changes like crit on Vampiric Aura, etc. (that's why I still gave you a thumbs up :) ), but it's just _that_ ... that we're completely ignored so far by the devs ... that I've tried it via this route (the encounter route). Maybe they will actually read it this way, cause they sure as hell don't do it when it's under the Necro forums!

 

And yes, if I can agree to some hard criticism by either you or other people here, it would be indeed about the fact it's a small change maybe not even changing anything (meta-wise) unless it would be far more elaborate scheme altogether.

But even _that_ was on purpose: cause would you read a 100+ lines OP? Though elaborate, no-one would even start to read it ... I know for a fact that some of these posters didn't even read _this_ OP in it's entirety .... (examples enough, right above me :) ).

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > there are better ways to make necro meta in PvE without touching PvP, these ideas have been posted on this and on the old forum and ignored for years.

> That's exactly why I now try this seemingly small change request under a wrapper of making underused boons more interesting and toning down the mesmer a bit.

> I've also suggested changes starting from big DPS buffs, i.e. making the Necro the absolute king of condi (in most games the elemental and dark classes are the two main DPS classes .... in GW2 it's only the first one ...) up to a complete overhaul of the Necro in its core design. I also agree on changes like crit on Vampiric Aura, etc. (that's why I still gave you a thumbs up :) ), but it's just _that_ ... that we're completely ignored so far by the devs ... that I've tried it via this route (the encounter route). Maybe they will actually read it this way, cause they sure as hell don't do it when it's under the Necro forums!

>

> And yes, if I can agree to some hard criticism by either you or other people here, it would be indeed about the fact it's a small change maybe not even changing anything (meta-wise) unless it would be far more elaborate scheme altogether.

> But even _that_ was on purpose: cause would you read a 100+ lines OP? Though elaborate, no-one would even start to read it ... I know for a fact that some of these posters didn't even read _this_ OP in it's entirety .... (examples enough, right above me :) ).

 

....

 

okay I'll explain where you are going wrong and why multiple people in this thread are not agreeing with you. Playing the pouty child because you failed to give specifics to your not well thought out idea works wonders in convincing others that your argument is valid and worth considering by the way.

 

Look at this from a developer point of view. How would a developer approach the topic of making a class more popular in a given game play mode?

 

Step 1: they'd assess the strengths and weaknesses of said class.

Step 2: they'd check what the current design of the target content asks for and how the target idea (getting the class more focused) could be achieved

Step 3: they'd come up with an idea like more encounter design which works in favor of the class

Step 4: how do changes to this content or re-balancing affect this game mode, how does this re-balancing affect the other game modes? Is the resulting change something we want or not? Is the net worth changing the content or class worth it?

 

Your idea does none of that.

 

1.) You focused on 1 strength of necromancer (boon corruptions and removal) without taking the entire class and its strengths and weaknesses into consideration. You then proceeded to focus on this 1 idea for your suggestion.

2.+3) You then proceeded to come up with an idea how to force the strength of the desired class into this content, good. You gave 0 consideration what this change would do to: other classes, meta compositions, group dynamic and complexity, interaction with currently already in place mechanics. In short, you just didn't care about any of the effects.

4.) You gave 0 consideration to how other game modes are affected which you only specified after people pressured this point and basically stated you don't care about other game modes. You didn't even bother to check if this change would even benefit necromancer enough as multiple people already pointed out, boon removal would just be done via other classes or mesmers with Phantasmal Disenchanter.

 

Finally you start complaining about people not embracing your idea and explaining that you couldn't be bothered with writing it out well enough due to length.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Yes, we could tear down the entire system. Remake the entire game. Re-balance all the classes. That's not a realistic approach and would solve nothing. It would merely change the current meta to a new setup. Let's assume necromancer is not part of the new meta, do we start from scratch again until it is? I'm really not getting your point here besides sidetracking.

 

Hmm, maybe that is an idea after all ....

 

Anyway, back to reality:

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> but I fail to see how you going over the top disproves my point.

Why would I even try to disprove _your_ point in the first place? It's pretty much the definition of sidetracking and only serves _your_ (not so) hidden agenda (mesmer much).

But fine, let me turn it around: how would _you_ change the (class) meta??? Or am I asking the wrong question here: would you like to _change_ the (class) meta in the first place? Or are you fine with it the way it is right now (and has been for a while now)? Humor me (I'm really interested if you are a fair balancer or admit to your hidden agenda)!

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Yes, we could tear down the entire system. Remake the entire game. Re-balance all the classes. That's not a realistic approach and would solve nothing. It would merely change the current meta to a new setup. Let's assume necromancer is not part of the new meta, do we start from scratch again until it is? I'm really not getting your point here besides sidetracking.

>

> Hmm, maybe that is an idea after all ....

>

> Anyway, back to reality:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > but I fail to see how you going over the top disproves my point.

> Why would I even try to disprove _your_ point in the first place? It's pretty much the definition of sidetracking and only serves _your_ (not so) hidden agenda (mesmer much).

> But fine, let me turn it around: how would _you_ change the (class) meta??? Or am I asking the wrong question here: would you like to _change_ the (class) meta in the first place? Or are you fine with it the way it is right now (and has been for a while now)? Humor me (I'm really interested if you are a fair balancer or admit to your hidden agenda)!

 

I already mentioned 1 change I'd make but I'll repeat it: I'd make mesmer/chrono affect 10 people. Bam, 1 extra raid spot just opened up.

 

The meta shifted just 3 weeks ago... not sure what you are on about. Chance are very high it will shift tonight again. Oh wait, you ment from a necromancer point of view post Scourge nerfs.

 

Oh wait, what is a class which gets taken for most of Wing 5? Scourge.

 

 

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

LOL, proves my whole point, changing the meta by making a team composition _even more_ dependent on the strongest member is not balancing ... In fact it's the exact opposite of it!

I'm happy you're not in the balancing team, that's for sure!

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> LOL, proves my whole point, changing the meta by making a team composition _even more_ dependent on the strongest member is not balancing ... In fact it's the exact opposite of it!

> I'm happy you're not in the balancing team, that's for sure!

 

You asked for my suggestion, I gave you one. Let's go through the actual result of said change:

 

- net effect to spvp: none since you are limited to 5 players per team anyway.

- net change to wvw: this is where it gets problematic, support chrono would become quite strong. Lucky that support chrono does about as much damage as a wet noodle.

- net change to raids: 1 free slot for other classes and no 2 chronos required. Firebrand, Renegade now become serious options for additional alacrity and quickness. Only 1 person needs to be able to distort attacks reducing the requirement to get 2 competent mesmers/chronos. Additional slot can be filled by dps or healer which both makes fights significantly easier

- net effect to open world: none or not worth mentioning

- net effect to dungeons/fractals: none, team size is limited to 5 members

 

Yeah, I can see how my idea is a lot worse than yours... I think by this point most people following this thread can quite clearly paint a picture of how much consideration you put towards your topic and idea.

 

EDIT: actually forgot one benefit. If running a support chrono (instead of tank) the meta could allow for more druid or other class tanks, something a lot of people have been complaining about.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Look at this from a developer point of view. How would a developer approach the topic of making a class more popular in a given game play mode?

>

> Step 1: they'd assess the strengths and weaknesses of said class.

> Step 2: they'd check what the current design of the target content asks for and how the target idea (getting the class more focused) could be achieved

> Step 3: they'd come up with an idea like more encounter design which works in favor of the class

> Step 4: how do changes to this content or re-balancing affect this game mode, how does this re-balancing affect the other game modes? Is the resulting change something we want or not? Is the net worth changing the content or class worth it?

 

well that is just one way to look at it. its not about how to make pve more suitable for necros, but how to make necros better class and not the trash-tier that it currently is.

i don't think you recognize the problem - encounter design is not one, it's the necro being terrible at nearly all aspects of game that class can do.

there are boundaries, every class has a checklist of what they can bring and what they dont bring - across all classes there is a healthy balance, except necromancer.

okay here i am again doing another elaboration that will be 100% ignored by the devs

 

block on a weapon skill? (not even counting the ones on utilities)

- rev staff/shield (rip sword)

- guard focus/mace

- war sword/shield/mace

- ranger gs

- mes sword/shield/scepter

- engi shield/kit/hammer

 

invulnerability? (might miss some)

- ele focus, mist form, earth shield

- ranger stone spirit, beast mode on bear i think

- rev glint heal

- war endure pain, the healing stance

- engi elixir

- mesmer distorts, mirage cloaks and such

- guard renewed focus

 

evasion on weapon skill? (not even counting the ones on utilities)

- rev staff/sword

- war rifle/gs

- engi hammer

- ranger sword/dagger/sb/gs/staff

- thief dagger/sb/staff/sword

- ele staff/daggers/sword

 

 

look already on this list not even once necro. and i didnt even include shadowsteps.

"2nd hp bar" yeah sure but each block can negate up to 99999999(9) dmg so consider every evade/invuln/block as a HP bar when using this argument. shroud wont save from 1shot attack so there's that. (btw not directing this message at quoted user, just in general)

 

and that was just active defense! we could talk about offensive support (spirits, banners, attribute auras, specific buffs like glyph or the arcane thing on ele, etc) but i already wasted enough of my time on being passionate about this dead class.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

I agree with you, but like you said yourself 100% chance the devs are not reading this, and if ppl like Cyninja come up with ideas like theirs (it actually is a copy of ANets own banner change they submitted 3 weeks ago), the ANet devs actually think they listen to the public ... just the wrong part of it .... that's all!!!

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Look at this from a developer point of view. How would a developer approach the topic of making a class more popular in a given game play mode?

> >

> > Step 1: they'd assess the strengths and weaknesses of said class.

> > Step 2: they'd check what the current design of the target content asks for and how the target idea (getting the class more focused) could be achieved

> > Step 3: they'd come up with an idea like more encounter design which works in favor of the class

> > Step 4: how do changes to this content or re-balancing affect this game mode, how does this re-balancing affect the other game modes? Is the resulting change something we want or not? Is the net worth changing the content or class worth it?

>

> well that is just one way to look at it. its not about how to make pve more suitable for necros, but how to make necros better class and not the trash-tier that it currently is.

> i don't think you recognize the problem - encounter design is not one, it's the necro being terrible at nearly all aspects of game that class can do.

> there are boundaries, every class has a checklist of what they can bring and what they dont bring - across all classes there is a healthy balance, except necromancer.

> okay here i am again doing another elaboration that will be 100% ignored by the devs

>

> block on a weapon skill? (not even counting the ones on utilities)

> - rev staff/shield (rip sword)

> - guard focus/mace

> - war sword/shield/mace

> - ranger gs

> - mes sword/shield/scepter

> - engi shield/kit/hammer

>

> invulnerability? (might miss some)

> - ele focus, mist form, earth shield

> - ranger stone spirit, beast mode on bear i think

> - rev glint heal

> - war endure pain, the healing stance

> - engi elixir

> - mesmer distorts, mirage cloaks and such

> - guard renewed focus

>

> evasion on weapon skill? (not even counting the ones on utilities)

> - rev staff/sword

> - war rifle/gs

> - engi hammer

> - ranger sword/dagger/sb/gs/staff

> - thief dagger/sb/staff/sword

> - ele staff/daggers/sword

>

>

> look already on this list not even once necro. and i didnt even include shadowsteps.

> "2nd hp bar" yeah sure but each block can negate up to 99999999(9) dmg so consider every evade/invuln/block as a HP bar when using this argument. shroud wont save from 1shot attack so there's that. (btw not directing this message at quoted user, just in general)

>

> and that was just active defense! we could talk about offensive support (spirits, banners, attribute auras, specific buffs like glyph or the arcane thing on ele, etc) but i already wasted enough of my time on being passionate about this dead class.

 

Where is condi application, where is condi cleave, where is boon corruption, where is healthpoint pool, where is boon removal? I'm not disagreeing that necromancer is lacking in those departments (and interesting enough, when scourge damage was totally overpowered, none of those issues matter for raid viability) but what does any of this have to do with this topic?

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> I agree with you, but like you said yourself 100% chance the devs are not reading this, and if ppl like Cyninja come up with ideas like theirs (it actually is a copy of ANets own banner change they submitted 3 weeks ago), the ANet devs actually think they listen to the public ... just the wrong part of it .... that's all!!!

 

The banner change was beginning of 2017, the might change to warriors and the Grace of the Land change to druids was 4-5 weeks ago.

 

I could go on, but at this point this is just silly.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > I agree with you, but like you said yourself 100% chance the devs are not reading this, and if ppl like Cyninja come up with ideas like theirs (it actually is a copy of ANets own banner change they submitted 3 weeks ago), the ANet devs actually think they listen to the public ... just the wrong part of it .... that's all!!!

>

> The banner change was beginning of 2017, the might change to warriors and the Grace of the Land change to druids was 4-5 weeks ago.

>

> I could go on, but at this point this is just silly.

 

I completely stand corrected, my bad! I actually meant the ranger spirits and indeed before that the banner change!

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Where is condi application, where is condi cleave, where is boon corruption, where is healthpoint pool, where is boon removal? I'm not disagreeing that necromancer is lacking in those departments (and interesting enough, when scourge damage was totally overpowered, none of those issues matter for raid viability) but what does any of this have to do with this topic?

 

Well, we are considering raid here and raids are often sumed up into a list of boss encounters.

 

At PoF release, scourges were doing 38k damage (with _grace of the land_) and were closely followed by a few other professions. Was this overpowered? An elementalist would say, if it were them, that they deserve to do that much. Honnestly, it's to much and all professions should have their max dps specializations brought down to 33k dps max which is not the case.

 

Now, the defensive argument from sublimatio wasn't really relevant for PvE raids and this has never been the necromancer's issue in this gamemode. The necromancer's issue is that it's tools and utilities are designed for PvP purpose and that in PvE such tools are underperforming leading the necromancer to be left out of PvE raid more often than anything.

 

The problem of the necromancer is that he is not a strong enough presence in a raid group to be welcome. Trying to force things by giving boons to boss and reducing condi hate from other professions is a terribly bad way to strengthen it's presence. Having the max dps of all professions in a small margin might have given him a spot thanks to it's natural survivability (large health pool), however there is to much difference between the necromancer's dps and the top dps professions for survivability to matter.

 

So, how can we strengthen the presence of a necromancer in a raid party? There is two way:

- either find something buried inside the necromancer's design that wasn't exploited until now.

- or add something new that somehow goes along with the necromancer's design.

 

Granted anet way of doing things they would rather go for the former than the later. At the moment we know that they intend to make some change on vuln traits which might be another (bound to fail) try to strengthen the necromancer's presence in raid. The reason why I say that it's bound to fail is that because ranger will be able to do it at an easier pace and they already have the proper mechanism built in on top of being naturally more useful.

 

Edit: Have read the patch... I'm still laughing...

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > After reading all the comments above let me go through the steps again with some of the feedback in mind:

> > >

> > > **2.** Let me elaborate a bit more on this. At the very moment, Chrono is undisputed meta in high-end PvE and has been for a while now. And it's not _just_ because of 1 or 2 niche areas that they're good at, it's because they're _the absolute best_ in multiple areas and _very good_ in even more areas. Enchant removal is one of them. In my opinion, it wouldn't hurt (PvE) balance, if for the mesmer this could be a bit toned down ... they still have many areas left at which they still would rule the playing field! Also, without buffing the Necro this would make them (and the Spellbreaker) more important in at least that area.

> > > Nerfing Mind Spike would only be a start! I actually believe even more disenchant skills from the mesmer need a nerf (sorry mesmers, I know, I really have it coming for you ... this while atm I play most on my mesmer (mainly to avoid kicks in Fractals and Raids) :) )!

> > > BUT ... I wouldn't mind if they receive buffs as well, but in a complete different area and obviously in moderation (we don't want to give them _another_ top pick area). E.g.: Mind Spike gets a couple of stacks of (the new) Vulnerability on top of it. Or maybe a _very_ short Immobilize. All up for discussion of course!

> >

> > Cyninja already commented on everything else, but I need to come back to this. Do you even know why chrono is near mandatory in raids and T4 fractals? Because its not the boon strip on Sword auto. That's literally just icing on the cake. Its SoI and Inspiring Distortion. Without SoI chrono would lose a TON of group utility. Without Inspiring distortion, it would lose the ability to distort the group through mechanics. Nerfing mind spike will do absolutely nothing to touch this.

> >

> > But even if it did, why are you so hellbent on destroying mesmer in the first place? You just admitted you want to remove nearly all of our boon strip, for no reason other than you don't want mesmer to be good at it.

>

> Normally I wouldn't respond to posts like these that only has an intention to be negative. These kind of posts are not there to state an opinion or give constructive feedback, they just want to pick a fight. But in this/your case ... you ask me a question, so let me just answer that:

> Maybe .... if you really read my posts you could've told already that I'm NOT "hellbent on destroying the mesmer". Don't you think it's kinda contradictory, that I only take the "icing on the cake" as you so eloquently put it, and want to destroy the mesmer with that??? That doesn't make any sense!!! Oh wait, you've already explained that! So actually you answered your own question already!

> Anywho, just to repeat myself (and give this thread a bump: thanks for that): I do not want to destroy the mesmer (hack, I play it myself the most right now), I want to tone it down just a little bit (as mentioned before, even in my OP ...).

 

But you are. You are asking to nerf something that isn't even relevant to why mesmer is taken in raid groups. Its a pointless nerf, won't make mesmer any less desired for their role. Its literally nerfing mesmer because you want to nerf mesmer. That's it. It wouldn't open up raid compositions at all. And nerfing a class just because you want to nerf it is pretty much wanting to destroy the class.

[Kuulpb.5412]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> I'm writing this post with the idea to level the class balance in raids and fractals a _little_ bit. And also to make a few (perceived as) underpowered boons more interesting to use.

>

> __1.__ Make [Protection](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protection) and [Regeneration](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Regeneration) stack up to 5 times, but change Protection to reduce 10% incoming damage per stack. Keep Regeneration as is or tone it down just a little bit, but adding the potential to create 5 times stronger Regenerations with 5 stacks!

> __2.__ Remove the boon rip from the Mesmer sword Auto Attack: [Mind Spike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Spike)

> __3.__ Let pretty much all (or 90% of) the Raid bosses and a lot of Fractal bosses start with 5 stacks of the new Protection and Regeneration and let them maintain/re-apply it on regular intervals.

> __4__ Adjust where needed player boon application in a way that for instance applying 5 stacks of Protection/regeneration by yourself is (nearly) impossible.

>

> __These changes would not be a very good idea to implement in WvW !!!__ (to state the obvious) (different discussion altogether: but you could think of a maximum of only 3 or even 2 stacks there)

>

> My initial idea behind this is to make the Necro (and maybe also the Spellbreaker) with all its boon-hate a more viable and even optimal option in __most__ Raids (and Fractals) instead of just 1 or 2 of them. Also it would _maybe_ adjust the for years long Chrono heavy meta a little bit. I won't count on it, but it _might_ emerge some other complex solutions involving Guardians, Revenants, Necros ... (or maybe not ... we'll have to see). Furthermore, it makes Protection and Regeneration (maybe even as condi counter) more sexy (again)!

 

Honestly, I'd much prefer a tone down of all boonstrip/corruptions on everything except spellbreaker, At the moment necromancer scepter auto converts boons, which is more harmful than a Mesmer auto attack at 130 range ( scepter is 900), maybe take all boon strips and corruptions OF auto attacks, and give the warrior mor than one cc on dagger, maybe make skill 5 do a 1/4 second daze on the initial hit, as we have a trait that removes boons when he hit with a cc.

 

Regarding buffing boons, Regeneration is already listed as being able to get to 10 stacks ( I think anyway) on warrior banne,r however it doesn't actually stack, which makes me sad, so I would be 100% in favour of regen stacking.

 

 

Edit: Looking over boonstrips and corruptions, - Reapers get Nothing can save you, a 600 range 2 boons strip that applies vuln and gives you unblockable, while spellbreakers get a 360 range boonstrip, I would like to see the range on break enchantments buffed to 600, - Note: if reaper NCSY is traited with augury of detah, hitting 4 enemies gives it about the same CD as break enchantments, at 600 range applying 5 vuln to each, granting the encore 8s unblockable, which I totally understand for a necromancer, but spellbreakers should remove boons more effectively than everything ( at least in my opinion)

 

[Draconerus.9867]

I agree these should stack.