Agrippa Oculus.3726

> @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less. > > > > > > > > > > If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it? > > > > > > > > How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These class didn't start with nor will end with GW2. All of these are traditional archetypes throughout the fantasy lore. Warrior/Fighters or Paladins always had Heavy Plate or Chainmail, Thieves or Rangers / Rouges wore medium/ Leather Armor, and Scholars/Mages wore robes/ Light Armor. One doesn't just and change a whole 100 years of story telling and mythical lore for nothing without expecting a major shift in continuity. Even in games that allow changes, its explained and put in a slightly different box. > > > > You both are absolutely right that it's a very old concept, indeed _thematically_ tied to the classic archetypes you described. > > But gameplaywise there's imo some real big flaws on how ANet has implemented an arbitrary system tied to both AR _and_ HP! Sure, you'd obviously expect more Armor Rating / Defence on a full plated body armor worn by a frontline archetype (like a warrior) than a mesmer in the backline wearing nothing more than a nightgown. But Health, well, I don't see any thematical or even logical reasoning behind the system that is in place now (i.e. it's not like something far more logical like: if you wear Heavy Amor, you move slower: I'm happy that's not in the game, btw. It would hurt the game a lot!). > > I mean take the Guardian, by new people often seen as a Paladin archetype. Yes you would expect them to have sturdy armor, but no, I would never expect them to have the lowest base health pool out there ... Or a Necromancer ... it's in the name even: death should be it's specialty, and it is the furthest away from it with the largest health pool out there! > > > > There's only gameplay reasons why they have **set** differences in Health Pools, which leads to lesser choice once you've chosen your class, and the stigmas that come with it in the community. So, _I'm_ a real advocate of removing those base health pool differences. (Again, combined with an extensive balance pass!). > > Armor Rating is a different story. Yea, you could set those to one and the same AR for all classes, I don't think it would actually hurt the game that much (probably even improve it), but like mentioned above, this one is thematically **far** more tied to these classic archetypes. It's somewhat comparable to the whole idea of wielding a shield, but not getting extra defence from it. It just feels a bit weird. > > Think of it as training and efficiency. If you're a mage in heavy armor, not only are you not trained to Fight in that armor, you don't have the prowess need to cast your sophisticated spells. Warriors don't fight in non heavy armor because it makes no sense not to. Yea, but what has that to do with Health? I agree it has a lot to do with Armor, but the base health system in GW2 is just arbitrary and only serves gameplay elements (not thematic and/or lore, etc.).

> @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less. > > > > > > If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it? > > > > How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly. > > > > > > These class didn't start with nor will end with GW2. All of these are traditional archetypes throughout the fantasy lore. Warrior/Fighters or Paladins always had Heavy Plate or Chainmail, Thieves or Rangers / Rouges wore medium/ Leather Armor, and Scholars/Mages wore robes/ Light Armor. One doesn't just and change a whole 100 years of story telling and mythical lore for nothing without expecting a major shift in continuity. Even in games that allow changes, its explained and put in a slightly different box. You both are absolutely right that it's a very old concept, indeed _thematically_ tied to the classic archetypes you described. But gameplaywise there's imo some real big flaws on how ANet has implemented an arbitrary system tied to both AR _and_ HP! Sure, you'd obviously expect more Armor Rating / Defence on a full plated body armor worn by a frontline archetype (like a warrior) than a mesmer in the backline wearing nothing more than a nightgown. But Health, well, I don't see any thematical or even logical reasoning behind the system that is in place now (i.e. it's not like something far more logical like: if you wear Heavy Amor, you move slower: I'm happy that's not in the game, btw. It would hurt the game a lot!). I mean take the Guardian, by new people often seen as a Paladin archetype. Yes you would expect them to have sturdy armor, but no, I would never expect them to have the lowest base health pool out there ... Or a Necromancer ... it's in the name even: death should be it's specialty, and it is the furthest away from it with the largest health pool out there! There's only gameplay reasons why they have **set** differences in Health Pools, which leads to lesser choice once you've chosen your class, and the stigmas that come with it in the community. So, _I'm_ a real advocate of removing those base health pool differences. (Again, combined with an extensive balance pass!). Armor Rating is a different story. Yea, you could set those to one and the same AR for all classes, I don't think it would actually hurt the game that much (probably even improve it), but like mentioned above, this one is thematically **far** more tied to these classic archetypes. It's somewhat comparable to the whole idea of wielding a shield, but not getting extra defence from it. It just feels a bit weird.

> @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less. > > > > If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it? > > How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly. > > Changing Armor, would definitely change the theme of a class imo. It also stems back to GW1, where it played a significant role in gameplay (and thematically as well). But again, those base health pool differences in GW2 has been a really strange and arbitrary decision from ANet and imo, I can't see any real thematic and/or lore reasons why there are differences between classes like that. (Except for maybe one class: the Daredevil). It only somewhat affects the gameplay, and imo is far less of a factor now, than it it used to be back in 2012. A good time to level those health pools to one and the same base pool! Obviously, combined with a well extensive balance patch which most of us have been waiting for, for a long time now.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > >and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point > > > > > > No it doesn't, because you have NO idea how those things are correlated to game balance. I mean, people have been leaving for various reasons for a long time ... so don't pretend like you got the data to claim it's because PVE isn't balanced the way you want it. > > > > I was saying that it proves my point they're going in a (general) wrong direction at the moment! > > Or it's natural given the age of the game We're talking about a game here, nothing natural about a game! It _could_ "live" forever if we (or the people responsible for it) want it to! I've got a feeling you might be a bit toooo attached to this game if you see it as a living entity! Look I (used to) love this game myself as well, but I also see very clear signs it's not going well with it, atm! > You don't even know what the player numbers or sales are ... you just say they go down because it suits your view of what's happening. There's enough proof (some even official from NCSoft) that tells you that. Don't bury your head in the sand!

If you really want to change your build/gear and still diss out a lot of damage, you're probably better off choosing a different class. Any DPS Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye build with [invigorating Precision](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision) in combination with Marauder gear for instance! Necro is capped at the lowest max. DPS of all classes. You're pretty much expected (if you still want to do a lot of damage) to go with full Berserker/Viper gear.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > >and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point > > No it doesn't, because you have NO idea how those things are correlated to game balance. I mean, people have been leaving for various reasons for a long time ... so don't pretend like you got the data to claim it's because PVE isn't balanced the way you want it. I was saying that it proves my point they're going in a (general) wrong direction at the moment! And if it has to do with balance I don't know, and I can't prove that. But as for everything, a wrong direction **can** be changed into a good one! How? Again, can't give any certainties there, but I would start _changing_ something that you lack at in your direction. And as of late the frequency of balance updates is definitely very low at the moment. So, the correlation is not _that_ far fetched!

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content. > > > > > > The biggest pillars are knowing the encounter and knowing how to play the build you have because it doesn't matter HOW much DPS you have if you don't have those two things ... but if you have those two things, you only just need to meet the threshold of DPS to complete endgame content. > > > > > > There is much evidence that shows that threshold is far below that of meta builds and team compositions. For instance, the fact that highly capable players are short manning and finishing raids WELL within the timer is evidence. The fact that people don't need to take optimal builds and be successful is also evidence. Why? because the game is NOT designed around big DPS pillars that you claim it should be balanced around; it's balanced around allowing people to play how they want. > > > > > > The only reason you think DPS should be the big balance pillar is because you dislike the DPS range that exists over the classes DESPITE the fact that it doesn't impact players being successful. > > > > > My god, you even give the example yourself in your own post. Short-manning raids is a real thing. It happens all the time for instance when people are selling raids! The person(s) buying the raids can (and probably will) die the very first few seconds a raid starts. And at the end is still **successful**. HOW has this anything to do with balance??? Or how should ANet balance their game around facts like that??? > > How should Anet balance the game around the fact that highly capable people are short man raids? Seems to me they should just keep doing what they are doing ... because shortmanning raids is an example that the threshold for success is low enough to allow people to play how they want. Ok, so at the very moment that means not balancing at all or very rarely. Because that's pretty much what ANet is doing right now. Is that what _you_ think is good for this game? (btw, just asking the question, not judging you, it's fine to have a difference of opinion of course) > > > Everyone can be successful in this game, so why balance at all? > > Oh that's easy ... because the game doesn't work how Anet wants it to work. And how do _you_ think ANet wants it to work, balance-wise? Again, this is a thread about balance updates! For instance, do you think people like us: the players, should have a say into it? But also, could you give me specifics, just like how normal balance updates from ANet look like: traits, skills, etc. how would _you_ change them? And maybe also the general ideas behind those changes (a bit like the introductions they always write for every class). > I mean, what do YOU think is the reason Anet balances to PVE for the last 8 years? Well, not enough, that's for sure, but that's also why I still write on this forum (and in this thread). Mostly because I still care (don't know for how long anymore though), and because there is still a tiny bit of hope left, that they actually listen to the community. You see, unlike you, I actually think they're going in a VERY wrong direction at the moment, and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point. Sure, an expansion is coming, but that doesn't mean they should put the rest of the game on life support, what it almost looks like, right now! I think that would be a very bad choice of ANet. > It' certainly not to give everyone meta builds and high DPS choices for all the options they want to play. Maybe they should?! Well, not how you write it, of course. But maybe ANet should look more into what the META is and how quite a lot of people are looking at it as an example at where they eventually want to get. It means showing an interest in their current player-base and what moves them in getting better in the game they play. You see, change can sometimes be a very good thing. Also for ANet! Admitting you're not doing the right thing right now (again, proven by numbers): in other words, owning your mistakes, is imo actually a very strong thing to do. It's not a weakness!

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content. > > The biggest pillars are knowing the encounter and knowing how to play the build you have because it doesn't matter HOW much DPS you have if you don't have those two things ... but if you have those two things, you only just need to meet the threshold of DPS to complete endgame content. > > There is much evidence that shows that threshold is far below that of meta builds and team compositions. For instance, the fact that highly capable players are short manning and finishing raids WELL within the timer is evidence. The fact that people don't need to take optimal builds and be successful is also evidence. Why? because the game is NOT designed around big DPS pillars that you claim it should be balanced around; it's balanced around allowing people to play how they want. > > The only reason you think DPS should be the big balance pillar is because you dislike the DPS range that exists over the classes DESPITE the fact that it doesn't impact players being successful. > My god, you even give the example yourself in your own post. Short-manning raids is a real thing. It happens all the time for instance when people are selling raids! The person(s) buying the raids can (and probably will) die the very first few seconds a raid starts. And at the end is still **successful**. HOW has this anything to do with balance??? Or how should ANet balance their game around facts like that??? Really, enlighten me! And when you answer that question: bear in mind: this is a thread about balance updates. With your reasoning, ANet might as well stop balancing because they've achieved perfect balance! Everyone can be successful in this game, so why balance at all?

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. > > > > > > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > Yup and **balance!** > > **No** it doesn't! Let me bring your argumentation to its extreme, and then you hopefully figure out that it **doesn't** have to do anything with balance. What if ANet would design a class tomorrow that literally can't do anything except for standing in a corner. It has a max of 0 DPS, 0 HPS, 0% support, no mobility, etc. It can only stand in a corner, and can die ... really quickly. With your flawless argumentation, you'd say that would still be balanced, cause you can 9-man raids! That you can complete raids anyway you like and with any class you like has nothing to do with balance! It's that simple. > > Wow, nice strawman you've got there. You can keep trying to "bring my argumentation to its extreme" all you want, but it has nothing to do with what I've said. You can literally fill dps spots with necros and still easly complete most/all raids. Your EXTREME! example has nothing to do with what is being said in this thread Exactly, it has nothing to do with this thread, and so is your argumentation that: > You can literally fill dps spots with necros and still easly complete most/all raids. It has nothing to do with this thread! Because it has _nothing_ to do with balance!!! And now that's confirmed, let's talk about balance: > Sure, I want more frequent balance patches too I wholeheartedly agree with you! > but it's irrelevant to suddenly bring it up now in this comment chain and pretend it was EVER part of it. Why? This thread is about balance updates. Why can't I bring it back on-topic (it was actually going really off-topic: with people going on and on about things that has nothing to do with balance) and in this case mention the _frequency_ of balance updates as of late? Which again, is **imo** _the_ most troubling issue of the whole balance system in this game. Definitely as of late! For me, it's the elephant in the room. It's been FAR too long since a _real_ balance update has hit this game. > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > You still don't understand that benchmarks have nothing to do with being a proof for anything that's being said here, because nobody tries disputing the differences in dps and benchmarks are **literally** only proving that singular thing, while it does nothing for the incorrect claims from this thread that I've quoted earlier. You might dislike facts that go against your opinions, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of what people wrote here -including you- is just made up. > > Read my comment of the beginning of this post. DPS **is** a factor in balance, I would even say one of the biggest if you look at the PvE endgame. It kills opponents (being your main objective in Raids), speeds things up so you get your rewards earlier, literally breaks mechanics, even makes things easier if you consider "exhaustion factors" in longer fights (your dodges are getting depleted more often, strong heals/cleanses etc. get in cooldown, etc.), and last but not least, the timers set by ANet for a reason are literal DPS checks! > > So I'd say: YES, DPS is a factor to which you should balance to! > > But hey, let me repeat myself one more time: that you can complete a raid anyway you like (even by lying on the ground for the full duration of the fight) is definitely NOT a factor ANet should take into consideration when balancing the game! > > You seem to not understand what I wrote there. I never said dps isn't a factor in balance. Now again, I completely agree with you, and I'm sorry if I missed some posts back from you in this huge thread, but sometimes it's just really hard to read through all that off-topic stuff and filter stuff like this out of it! But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content. I mentioned it before, but it literally breaks mechanics and does much more things to ease your playthrough. If you don't balance the classes around your biggest pillar in the PvE endgame, well, your fundament will crumble at some stage, as we can already see in many people losing interest in the game. And again, big disclaimer here: there's not 100% correlation between bad balance and decline in player numbers, but _imo_ there definitely is a portion of it that ANet shouldn't underestimate!

> @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Agri > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore _what_ they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the _frequency_ of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not! > > If you really want to know what I find **the** most distressing part of the balance in the PvE endgame, sure the terrible state of the Necro is very high on the list, but the absolute worst is actually about boons! And especially Quickness and Alacrity, obviously. The (class) distribution on them, the importance of having high uptime on them, etc. it's just really unbalanced! > > Did you know GW2 is actually worse about that? in pve in WOW even if sometimes it takes months they tend to rotate classes as fotm even if i dislike that idea and think they shouldn't, they never had a class that was bottom for years non stop since almost the beginning, which is seriously busted. Then again, if it was blizzard knowing the way they are now, they woulda nerfed all casters dumbed down all classes and call it a day add microtransactions or something. > > Also i personally disagree with you on something agrippa: I don't think necros should have lots of access to certain kinds of boons such as alacricity and quickness, thats a mesmer thing. Necromancers were never about giving those and i don't know what kinda buffs they gave in GW1 but personally i think nec should do protection barrier maybe might as boons regen that kinda stuff. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that Quickness and Alacrity and the importance of them in gamemodes like the PvE endgame is too overpowered. How to fix that ... well that's a whole different discussion. I would actually look into more graded versions of the boons. Like a stacking effect (similar to might, but different increments), and I would make them a lot more widely available across all classes. OR leave the distribution as it is, but nerf the boons. Still make them stacking, but generally nerfed! Anyway, the _how_ is not even that important imo, I'm even getting to a point where the _what_ is not even important. The _when_ is for me the most important. When do they come with new balance updates, it's ridiculous how long they take in this game!

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. > > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > Yup and **balance!** **No** it doesn't! Let me bring your argumentation to its extreme, and then you hopefully figure out that it **doesn't** have to do anything with balance. What if ANet would design a class tomorrow that literally can't do anything except for standing in a corner. It has a max of 0 DPS, 0 HPS, 0% support, no mobility, etc. It can only stand in a corner, and can die ... really quickly. With your flawless argumentation, you'd say that would still be balanced, cause you can 9-man raids! That you can complete raids anyway you like and with any class you like has nothing to do with balance! It's that simple. > If you *don't care what I''m talking about*, then I'm not sure why you pretend you're answering to anything I wrote while all you do is try to disregard anything factual that goes against your idea of "anet needs to buff my class!". If you read my posts correctly, I'm far more worried about the frequency of balance updates as opposed to _what_ they will balance. Here you are, and I quote (from just a few posts back): > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore _what_ they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the _frequency_ of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not! If you really want to know what I find **the** most distressing part of the balance in the PvE endgame, sure the terrible state of the Necro is very high on the list, but the absolute worst is actually about boons! And especially Quickness and Alacrity, obviously. The (class) distribution on them, the importance of having high uptime on them, etc. it's just really unbalanced! > @"Sobx.1758" said: > You still don't understand that benchmarks have nothing to do with being a proof for anything that's being said here, because nobody tries disputing the differences in dps and benchmarks are **literally** only proving that singular thing, while it does nothing for the incorrect claims from this thread that I've quoted earlier. You might dislike facts that go against your opinions, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of what people wrote here -including you- is just made up. Read my comment of the beginning of this post. DPS **is** a factor in balance, I would even say one of the biggest if you look at the PvE endgame. It kills opponents (being your main objective in Raids), speeds things up so you get your rewards earlier, literally breaks mechanics, even makes things easier if you consider "exhaustion factors" in longer fights (your dodges are getting depleted more often, strong heals/cleanses etc. get in cooldown, etc.), and last but not least, the timers set by ANet for a reason are literal DPS checks! So I'd say: YES, DPS is a factor to which you should balance to! But hey, let me repeat myself one more time: that you can complete a raid anyway you like (even by lying on the ground for the full duration of the fight) is definitely NOT a factor ANet should take into consideration when balancing the game!

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > > > > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > > > > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > > > > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. > > > > Depends if the choices are meaningful. > > Yes, and this game the highest number of meaningful choices of any game I've every played. I'm really happy for _you_! But like I said before: numbers show a different tendens. From declining sales (see NCSoft) to (near) empty LFG's . From mass lay-offs to veteran players leaving this game. Again, I'm happy for _you_, that _you_ feel really great and peachy about the current state of this game, but now I really would like to see all those other people that don't like the direction ANet (and NCSoft) is going to be (more) happy. For that group of people is growing every single day. I'm not saying there's a 100% correlation between the beforementioned decline and the abnormally low frequency of balance updates as of late, but I do think it is _somewhat_ of a factor. Like I mentioned before. The only MMORPG's that don't receive regular balance updates are the ones on life support!

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not!

> @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. But you don't mind, do you, cause you can win (read: kill) any discussion with paramount truths like the sun rises in the east, 1+1=2 and gamedesign 101 is that you can complete any raid with any class. Real contribution, that is! > > Well to be fair some sites are very outdated and unreliable for raids. Need to be careful with data from outdated sites when it comes to RDPS. > > I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm sure there is someone who's done some raid dps testing and posted it somewhere or if not you could try yourself and see what results you get. But that's just it, the last real balance update is also VERY outdated! (Edit: definitely if it comes to PvE)

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. But you don't mind, do you, cause you can win (read: kill) any discussion with paramount truths like the sun rises in the east, 1+1=2 and gamedesign 101 is that you can complete any raid with any class. Real contribution, that is! And because I'm not contributing anything to this thread either: > @"DKRathalos.9625" said: > OK then let's bring it back to Balance Patch. When do you think anet will do another big balance patch? Will they delay all the way to EoD or they will do some big balance patch first, because let's be honest what they change at February 2020 there are a lot of "placeholders" and it's been a year so they should give this placeholder some change? These are the real questions! It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore _what_ they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the _frequency_ of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not!