The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > **But** what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

> > Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

> >

> >

>

> The OP might not be diplomatic, but that doesn't mean the question isn't legitimate.

 

But exactly the same might be said about the people OP's complaining about! Perhaps those threads aren't all diplomatic, well thought and constructive, but that doesn't mean the complains they bring aren't legitimate.

 

Remember, OP is also just complaining without suggesting any constructive solution.

 

(no, the "why they don't group together" suggestion is not constructive, which OP would already know if he bothered to actually read the threads he complains against)

 

Though yes, OP does seem to show D-K effect in action, as he seems to assume that if only 10 of complaining people would got together, they'd be both able to raid easily, and probably like it. Like he did.

 

 

[Myhr.9108]

The problem with the raiding and fractal community is an ideologic one. That's why it's so polarizing. Constructive feedback have been given on both sides. Like it or not, raids have an identity, they're challenging medium-sized group content with lore assets. Been like that in pretty much every MMO out there, with just the sliders in slightly different positions. The consequence is that this mode has its own set of distinctive features all blend together. And the problem is that : the blending. It's what makes raids so great, but also so frustrating when you're not willing to embrace them and are only interested in one of the features, and not to the point of putting up with the rest.

 

Really, mostly, non-raiders want to have the choice, and imho, it's a little depressing that Arena-net wasn't daring enough to go past the old formula, when they did it so brilliantly with the Fractals. I'm also concerned that the Fractals are slowly reverting to some old-school dungeons, and I don't mean the old GW2 dungeons, no, I mean the dungeons in every over MMO out there.

 

You might want to ridicule those that ask for alternatives all you want, tell them to 'suck it and git gud", while explaining in the same sentence that it's not that hard, so we must really really suck and be really really lazy to not achieve what you're doing. Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals). So yeah, we may be playing the same game...but we aren't, really, and that's a bit sad.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Myhr.9108 said:

> The problem with the raiding and fractal community is an ideologic one. That's why it's so polarizing. Constructive feedback have been given on both sides. Like it or not, raids have an identity, they're challenging medium-sized group content with lore assets. Been like that in pretty much every MMO out there, with just the sliders in slightly different positions. The consequence is that this mode has its own set of distinctive features all blend together. And the problem is that : the blending. It's what makes raids so great, but also so frustrating when you're not willing to embrace them and are only interested in one of the features, and not to the point of putting up with the rest.

>

 

The one feature being legendary armor right?

 

I'm sorry but I just don't buy into the bs argument that raid story is a huge factor. It's something people who have no idea how small the raid story is go on about. The effort to make this small amount (and I mean it is tiny) available to everyone in game (it's not like the story isn't described and explained in multiple posts and youtube videos) is just not worth it.

 

> @Myhr.9108 said:

> Really, mostly, non-raiders want to have the choice, and imho, it's a little depressing that Arena-net wasn't daring enough to go past the old formula, when they did it so brilliantly with the Fractals. I'm also concerned that the Fractals are slowly reverting to some old-school dungeons, and I don't mean the old GW2 dungeons, no, I mean the dungeons in every over MMO out there.

 

You have a choice. In fact there is multiple choices into how to get into raiding and experienced raiders have repeatedly said over and over again, the most fun and best way is to join a training guild and make new social contacts. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

> @Myhr.9108 said:

>

> You might want to ridicule those that ask for alternatives all you want, tell them to 'suck it and git gud", while explaining in the same sentence that it's not that hard, so we must really really suck and be really really lazy to not achieve what you're doing. Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals). So yeah, we may be playing the same game...but we aren't, really, and that's a bit sad.

 

So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

 

remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

 

[sigur.9453]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

>

> remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

>

 

remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @sigur.9453 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

> >

> > remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

> >

>

> remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

>

 

don't call fractal players "loot greed" then :)

[Feanor.2358]

> @Myhr.9108 said:

> The problem with the raiding and fractal community is an ideologic one. That's why it's so polarizing. Constructive feedback have been given on both sides. Like it or not, raids have an identity, they're challenging medium-sized group content with lore assets. Been like that in pretty much every MMO out there, with just the sliders in slightly different positions. The consequence is that this mode has its own set of distinctive features all blend together. And the problem is that : the blending. It's what makes raids so great, but also so frustrating when you're not willing to embrace them and are only interested in one of the features, and not to the point of putting up with the rest.

>

> Really, mostly, non-raiders want to have the choice, and imho, it's a little depressing that Arena-net wasn't daring enough to go past the old formula, when they did it so brilliantly with the Fractals. I'm also concerned that the Fractals are slowly reverting to some old-school dungeons, and I don't mean the old GW2 dungeons, no, I mean the dungeons in every over MMO out there.

>

> You might want to ridicule those that ask for alternatives all you want, tell them to 'suck it and git gud", while explaining in the same sentence that it's not that hard, so we must really really suck and be really really lazy to not achieve what you're doing. Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals). So yeah, we may be playing the same game...but we aren't, really, and that's a bit sad.

 

Really, most non-raiders have a choice. Namely, the rest of the game. You are right, it's an ideological problem, but one that still leaves me in dismay. **Why** people seem to expect *everything* in a game so big to fit their tastes? The blend of features means that you only care about 1-2 of them, you're very likely to find them in another place. Why so intent to get *these* particular ones, ruining the fun of everyone enjoying the content in the process? This mindset is the only problem. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any constructive debate possible. I don't fool myself I can persuade people to think differently. So I resort to just pointing out how and why they're wrong.

 

You're also right that we aren't really playing the same game. In a sense, nobody is. Again, the game is big, and targets many different tastes with many different features. So you could say everyone is playing a slightly different subset of the game. Is this sad? Not really. It's just the natural result of individualism.

[sigur.9453]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

> > >

> > > remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

> > >

> >

> > remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

> >

>

> don't call fractal players "loot greed" then :)

 

did i? no! :)

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

> > >

> > > remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

> > >

> >

> > remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

> >

>

> don't call fractal players "loot greed" then :)

 

Great strawman, but's that not what I said.

 

I said, in response to the sudden claim that fractals and their scaling difficulty was the answer, that fractals have their own problems and players are unwilling to adapt to challenging content or take a cut in their rewards if they are unable to overcome said content.

 

In short: instead of playing content which is enjoyable even if less rewarding, players would rather complain about difficult content while expecting the maximum reward possible. That is what I called loot greed. You merely decided to cut the entire context and reduce my statement to 2 words.

 

I could expand upon how I feel about this in context to raids, but we both know where I stand on this issue and where you stand Kheldorn, so I'll save us both the time.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Myhr.9108 said:

> Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals).

>

 

The complaints about the new fractals prove once and for all that multiple difficulty tiers don't help.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @sigur.9453 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > > So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

> > > >

> > > > remove rewards from raids and let's see what happens with your "community" :)

> > > >

> > >

> > > remove rewards from all gamemode then. let´s see what will be repeatably played then :)

> > >

> >

> > don't call fractal players "loot greed" then :)

>

> did i? no! :)

 

But you joined and commented ignoring a context of my response :)

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @Daniel.5428 said:

> Let me explain you how things are going on. I am a raider since the beginning and I never had a static group, I was raiding only with LFG. I got my legendary armor with a lot of hard work, I spent hours learning rotations, farmed a lot for stats change, made new classes etc. And at the end, it was rewarding. I was better in raids, more classes = more possibilities etc. In my point of you, Wing 5 is not event hard. I mean I killed Desmina and did the 2 events during the first week, with LFG. Never killed some raid bosses so fast in the other Wings. It's barely a week since the wing was released and people are complaining instead of trying to do it. I've seen new raiders starting raiding. They asked me questions, I gave them answers and advices, they tried they rotations and I was very surprised when a fresh player from my training guild who had 3 LI did everything perfect during W4, first 3 bosses. Everything, from gear to damage, to positioning. Because he tried. And then I've seen people with 50 LI complaining about raids being bad when they don't even know their rotations, they just spamm random skills. So, for every new players who look at this, raids are not bad, the community is complaining too much. If you wanna raid, first make sure you have checked these 3 requirements: Build, boss strategy, rotation. Then, in time, you will develop your own playstile for a boss.

 

To add something to this good post, everyone should realize that they CAN actually spam skills and only worry about build and mechanics as long as they don't play Tempest/Condi Mirage or builds with elaborate rotations. Just play Power DH (kitten, even hammer DH still does its job) or something that can dish out 30k+ with no effort then worry about doing mechanics correctly while you press 2 and 6 from time to time.

 

Much of the problem with newbie raiders is that they benchmark themselves against qT or some other toxicelitist guild, when in reality they can get by and get the boss down much easier with less-than-optimal builds, because optimal = higher DPS for these folks.

 

Everyone should also realize that the pros do struggle a lot with mechanics. One of the biggest offenders are the drafts in Gorseval where I played with 200+LI people that would die from falling lest we had no updrafts, and also VG greens that people were unable to move to and relied exclusively on the Chrono to distort them. Skipping as many mechanics as possible is the game here, NOT being skilled at playing them, to the point that your casual guild Sabetha group probably has seen more bombs than most speed clearers ever will. So don't fret about speed clearing, just take a build where **you** can deal damage personally (or, if you're supporting, tailor your own build to reach as much boon uptime as **you** personally can) and go for it, you'll surely get kills in no time (as long as you can find 10 people which is a real problem).

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @maxwelgm.4315 said:

> > @Daniel.5428 said:

> > Let me explain you how things are going on. I am a raider since the beginning and I never had a static group, I was raiding only with LFG. I got my legendary armor with a lot of hard work, I spent hours learning rotations, farmed a lot for stats change, made new classes etc. And at the end, it was rewarding. I was better in raids, more classes = more possibilities etc. In my point of you, Wing 5 is not event hard. I mean I killed Desmina and did the 2 events during the first week, with LFG. Never killed some raid bosses so fast in the other Wings. It's barely a week since the wing was released and people are complaining instead of trying to do it. I've seen new raiders starting raiding. They asked me questions, I gave them answers and advices, they tried they rotations and I was very surprised when a fresh player from my training guild who had 3 LI did everything perfect during W4, first 3 bosses. Everything, from gear to damage, to positioning. Because he tried. And then I've seen people with 50 LI complaining about raids being bad when they don't even know their rotations, they just spamm random skills. So, for every new players who look at this, raids are not bad, the community is complaining too much. If you wanna raid, first make sure you have checked these 3 requirements: Build, boss strategy, rotation. Then, in time, you will develop your own playstile for a boss.

>

> To add something to this good post, everyone should realize that they CAN actually spam skills and only worry about build and mechanics as long as they don't play Tempest/Condi Mirage or builds with elaborate rotations. Just play Power DH (kitten, even hammer DH still does its job) or something that can dish out 30k+ with no effort then worry about doing mechanics correctly while you press 2 and 6 from time to time.

>

> Much of the problem with newbie raiders is that they benchmark themselves against qT or some other toxicelitist guild, when in reality they can get by and get the boss down much easier with less-than-optimal builds, because optimal = higher DPS for these folks.

>

> Everyone should also realize that the pros do struggle a lot with mechanics. One of the biggest offenders are the drafts in Gorseval where I played with 200+LI people that would die from falling lest we had no updrafts, and also VG greens that people were unable to move to and relied exclusively on the Chrono to distort them. Skipping as many mechanics as possible is the game here, NOT being skilled at playing them, to the point that your casual guild Sabetha group probably has seen more bombs than most speed clearers ever will. So don't fret about speed clearing, just take a build where **you** can deal damage personally (or, if you're supporting, tailor your own build to reach as much boon uptime as **you** personally can) and go for it, you'll surely get kills in no time (as long as you can find 10 people which is a real problem).

>

 

Let me just weigh in here a little.

 

Speed clear tactics aren't a bad thing, *per se*. They are actually safer, assuming your group can pull them off. It's probably the main reason why most experienced groups prefer to use them - it minimizes the chances for something to mess up.

 

But when you're starting, by all means, take your time. Learn the mechanics and play them. Don't rush into skips, because without the familiarity which only comes from playing that fight dozens upon dozens of times, you'll really be trying to run before learning how to walk.

[Shirlias.8104]

Well, if you check within the discussion session you will also find players which complain about

 

* Personal story bosses too difficult

* PoF HP too hard

 

and so on.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > > **But** what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

> > > Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The OP might not be diplomatic, but that doesn't mean the question isn't legitimate.

>

> But exactly the same might be said about the people OP's complaining about! Perhaps those threads aren't all diplomatic, well thought and constructive, but that doesn't mean the complains they bring aren't legitimate.

>

> Remember, OP is also just complaining without suggesting any constructive solution.

>

> (no, the "why they don't group together" suggestion is not constructive, which OP would already know if he bothered to actually read the threads he complains against)

>

> Though yes, OP does seem to show D-K effect in action, as he seems to assume that if only 10 of complaining people would got together, they'd be both able to raid easily, and probably like it. Like he did.

>

>

 

This statement is entirely fallacious. For D-K effect to be applicable here i would need to have stated:

 

A. Raids are easy

B. Raids are easy to me

C. They must be easy for everyone due to this fact

 

I did nothing of the such and i would appreciate if you didn't claim I did, when i go to great lengths to avoid this fallacy on these forums. My statements were on the mentality of such players, and why they may or may not be able to find groups. In addition to how spending time here complaining about personal issues, is a fruitless endeavor.

 

The constructive solution is to suck it up and raid with people of similar liking. And sense all these people have similar views, it's only logical that they would at minimum attempt to group up. But no such attempt has been made, because their complaints are not in line with what they actually want.

 

They say they wanna stay away from 'elitism', but never bother to raid with people who think the same way as them. And it's ironic, because most of the people who make this complaint, are even more toxic than they claim others are. It's blatant projection and hypocrisy.

 

The people who complain raids are 'too hard' probably don't understand the mechanics. As when one does understand them, they naturally become easier.

 

I have a PS warrior in my static who plays on 2k ping, does near perfect dps, and rarely if ever dies. On top of having a potato PC that is at like 10 frames a second on low graphics. The difference between him and most? He understand the raid mechanics and his class/rotation on a deep level. It makes up for any mechanical or computer shortcoming.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> The people who complain raids are 'too hard' probably don't understand the mechanics. As when one does understand them, they naturally become easier.

 

Imho is there that you are wrong Frost.

The fact that players don't know the mechanics it's a consequence of a deeper and easier problem.

 

Players here on gw2 are used not to think.

If we look at the history of the previous years we can see this simple pattern.

 

> World bosses or Meta events with easy mechanics which were hard to complete because players weren't able to di simple little tasks. After a while, some nerfs and those events were possible to be achieved. But not because of the players which managed to understand and play better... just because of nerfs.

 

Players which are unable to achieve raids mostly don't want to learn indeed, but because they were used since the beginning to play randomly. go afk during encounters, play with not efficient builds, go tanky builds because it was easier to take the hit than learn the mob pattern or make a good use of the dodge.

Now that we do have raids they still refuse to accept that they must play and learn.

 

The thing i am sorry about is that among every pug raid ( or 5 men fractal ) at least 1 or 2 players are let's say worth to be there.

And they could have achieved the goal if it weren't for the other members ( fantasy builds, no skill, no mechanical knowledge, and so on ).

 

Now, since many complains that the blame has to be put on pugs, the better solution should be to let all those players play together.

Then, if they are all skilled as they claim, there wouldn't be any problem in order to complete a single raid.

 

So, with the help of a dedicated thread maybe, the best solution should be to find somebody who wants to play a good pug raid and try to share it with others like him.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Shirlias.8104 said:

> Players which are unable to achieve raids mostly don't want to learn indeed, but because they were used since the beginning to play randomly. go afk during encounters, play with not efficient builds, go tanky builds because it was easier to take the hit than learn the mob pattern or make a good use of the dodge.

 

This wasn't like the game on release and for one and a half year afterwards. The "let's go do content while watching Netflix on the second monitor" is the mentality created after Scarlet's death and until Heart of Thorns release. Things started falling apart with the first Queen's Jubilee, turning the game into an endless farm in huge blobs, but at least for a while they gave enough repeatable challenging content to satisfy all their players. With the Pavilion, Scarlet's Invasions and onward this game turned more and more into a huge mess with blobs hitting mobs for loot.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > Players which are unable to achieve raids mostly don't want to learn indeed, but because they were used since the beginning to play randomly. go afk during encounters, play with not efficient builds, go tanky builds because it was easier to take the hit than learn the mob pattern or make a good use of the dodge.

>

> This wasn't like the game on release and for one and a half year afterwards. The "let's go do content while watching Netflix on the second monitor" is the mentality created after Scarlet's death and until Heart of Thorns release. Things started falling apart with the first Queen's Jubilee, turning the game into an endless farm in huge blobs, but at least for a while they gave enough repeatable challenging content to satisfy all their players. With the Pavilion, Scarlet's Invasions and onward this game turned more and more into a huge mess with blobs hitting mobs for loot.

 

During scarlet invasion most of the players were full magic find equipment and contributed to let the events fail.

They were indeed harder than some events, but remember that due to the ridicouls damage given from mf equipment the events failed.

 

The mentality was the same ( pof 3 was for few players because the others weren't able to do it, just to say one dungeon. and let's not talk about arah ).

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Myhr.9108 said:

> > Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals).

> >

>

> The complaints about the new fractals prove once and for all that multiple difficulty tiers don't help.

 

I wouldn’t agree with that entirely. I do think fractals work when you’re new to them and learning to play them it’s just that with the constant revamps you see a jump in difficulty going from old T4 to revamped T4. Likewise most T4 versions of new fractals are much harder than older T4 fractals where unfortunately people jump in at T4 when they’re released because they’ve been doing T4s for over a year.

 

People not choosing to ease themselves in is part of the problem as is the revamping.

[Myhr.9108]

@"Cyninja.2954" lots of incorrect assumptions in your answer, let me elaborate a little.

 

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> The one feature being legendary armor right?

>

> I'm sorry but I just don't buy into the bs argument that raid story is a huge factor. It's something people who have no idea how small the raid story is go on about. The effort to make this small amount (and I mean it is tiny) available to everyone in game (it's not like the story isn't described and explained in multiple posts and youtube videos) is just not worth it.

 

As a matter of fact, wrong. Imho, GW2 has an innate problem with how freely you can switch your abilities and specializations, but their efficiency is tied to your gear. Stat-swapping on gear being tied to the legendary tier sounds to me like a big oversight from Arena-net, but hey, at this point, it is what it is. In fact, given how the raids are designed, it make sense that raiders get access to a gear that allows them to adapt and follow the balance changes that A-net makes. Do I want legendary armor? In a vaccum, yes, but since I don't raid and I don't do McM enough, I have no hope for ever getting it, and franlky, the same can be said for a lot of cosmetic and commodities in the game, it doesn't bother me.

 

As for the story, here, in order for you to understand, I'll talk to you from gamer to gamer. If by story, I was only talking about the cinematic experience, aka the cutscenes, the visuals, and the dialogues, then you would be right. But, and I'm sure, as a fellow gamer, you're aware of that, video games offer more than that. That's why watching a play-through on youtube will never be the same as actually playing a game. Video games offer a whole new level of narration through mechanics, through experimenting what is happening through your character, and I'm not just talking about the staging, but about the whole game design.

Now, there is a point to make that part of that game design would be lost if there was a mode with say, 9 bots and only one real player, but I'd rather loose one part of the experience than all of it. Truth be told, other games have done it, like LOTRO, where story instances were designed for groups of 6 people, then they added a feature that buffed you to be able to solo.

 

So yeah "go watch a video on youtube"...it's a poor substitute that pales in comparison to what is possible. After all, you don't really need to play through the Living World story instance, you can just watch them on Youtube, right?

 

>

> You have a choice. In fact there is multiple choices into how to get into raiding and experienced raiders have repeatedly said over and over again, the most fun and best way is to join a training guild and make new social contacts. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

>

 

You're talking of choice in how to approach a content when I'm talking choice of content. You're repeating that I can raid if I want to, and I repeat that I don't want to raid. Do not make any mistake, I think it's good for you to have raids, I mean, good for you. But I don't want to raid. Not anymore, I'm burned out. Kaput, finished. But keep raiding, all props to you!

As for the proportion of each game mode in the game, it's something I can hear, truly, more hard encounters for the hardcore gamers, and it's true that there is a lot of more relaxed content, and if we're comparing the releases, the amount of relaxed content created is quite bigger than the amount of hardcore content. But, and it's quite important to note, a player can easily adjust to an easier content, but will have a hard time adjusting to harder content. Shocking I know, but what I mean is that while you benefit more from hard content and less from easy content, I benefit from easy content and don't benefit from hard content at all. So you're benefiting from more content than I am. As a matter of fact, I'd rather have several difficulties released for each game mode, with an easy mode and a hard mode for both Living story and raids. That way we would both have our cake and eat it (of course, better or even exclusive rewards for higher difficulties, it's kinda the case already with achievements, but could be developed).

 

>

> So suddenly fractals are the answer. Want me to link some of the multiple compliant threads about the new fractal or about how fractals become progressively more challenging? Most of the people complaining there don't even consider dropping down to tier 3, why? Loot greed.

 

Ah yes, on that subject...no need to provide the links, I'm fully aware of the complaints, and I, surprise surprise, share them...but with a twist! Because, I am in fact playing T2 fractals, not T4. And the newer fractals are pushing everyone one tier lower, it's not something specific to T4. Interesting, right? It's as if the new fractals were inherently, mechanically harder than the rest, without considering the scaling. This is bothering me, because it's hardcore gaming effectively eating some casual gaming space. Does loot greed play a role in that? Mmmmh, I can't deny that, but I can't also help to wonder if the hard mechanical elements of those fractals could not have been kept for the CM mode, you know, the system specifically created for those that search some challenge? I mean, I wouldn't be against CM modes for every single fractal, providing more content for those that find the current T4 too easy.

 

As I said, more content for those who want a challenge? Yeah, why not? Better for them, more power to them. But this is not why I play GW2.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

>

> Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

>

> This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

>

> For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

>

> Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

>

> Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

>

> People need to understand,

>

> -Not every feeling they have is important

> -No one cares about your feelings BUT you

> -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues

> -There are exceptions to just about every rule

> -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,

> +personality

> +play time

> +lack of experience

> + lack of personal skill

> +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others

> +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

>

> There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

 

Just because of *some*, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

[Cyninja.2954]

The point is, T4 fractals provide a very high quality of loot with on average 1 ascended box per week (and gold loot etc.). The power creep with the last 2 expansions has made the content irrelevant or at least not challenging enough to warrant this amount of loot.

 

There is 2 ways to address this issue:

- reduce the quality of loot and keep the difficulty the same (aka making challenge modes a sort of T5 and keeping the loot with them)

- add challenging content as to not make T4 insignificant

 

The only thing unfair is that T4 was for a long period of time to easy. Players have every right to be upset about having something taken away from them. Especially with stuff like 4 necro+1druid easy mode in the game for months. Doesn't mean it's not the right approach overall balance wise.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > > Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

> >

> > Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

> >

> > This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

> >

> > For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

> >

> > Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

> >

> > Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

> >

> > People need to understand,

> >

> > -Not every feeling they have is important

> > -No one cares about your feelings BUT you

> > -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues

> > -There are exceptions to just about every rule

> > -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,

> > +personality

> > +play time

> > +lack of experience

> > + lack of personal skill

> > +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others

> > +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

> >

> > There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

>

> Just because of *some*, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

 

'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

 

You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @Myhr.9108 said:

> > > Makes me smile a little, since it's almost as if you consider as if you're better than us, when there is enough place for both of us into the game (case in point, fractals).

> > >

> >

> > The complaints about the new fractals prove once and for all that multiple difficulty tiers don't help.

>

> I wouldn’t agree with that entirely. I do think fractals work when you’re new to them and learning to play them it’s just that with the constant revamps you see a jump in difficulty going from old T4 to revamped T4. Likewise most T4 versions of new fractals are much harder than older T4 fractals where unfortunately people jump in at T4 when they’re released because they’ve been doing T4s for over a year.

>

> People not choosing to ease themselves in is part of the problem as is the revamping.

 

If those asking for lowering difficulty tiers followed their own advice, they'd be playing the lower tiers of Fractals. But now we see people, some of them asking for difficulty tiers in other threads, complaining that they can't do T4, and instead of using the mechanics given by the game, lower tiers, they expect T4 to be lowered in complexity.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > > > Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

> > >

> > > Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

> > >

> > > This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

> > >

> > > For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

> > >

> > > Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

> > >

> > > Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

> > >

> > > People need to understand,

> > >

> > > -Not every feeling they have is important

> > > -No one cares about your feelings BUT you

> > > -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues

> > > -There are exceptions to just about every rule

> > > -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,

> > > +personality

> > > +play time

> > > +lack of experience

> > > + lack of personal skill

> > > +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others

> > > +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

> > >

> > > There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

> >

> > Just because of *some*, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

>

> 'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

>

> You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

 

Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?