Addressing Infinite Horizon

[Myxam.2790]

Based on the Mirage Specialization's fantasy to, "Hide in play sight, obfuscate the real mesmer hiding amongst their clones." I feel this needs to be stated:

 

Infinite Horizon should be a Minor Trait, not a Major one.

 

But how do you get it from its Major Slot to one of the two Minor's available. To me is simple. Nomad's Endurance should be moved to the Major GM Line, and be buffed with the following:

 

Your clones are resummoned after the first time they are shattered. (Clones are briefly dazed after being resummoned).

 

_That's Chronophantasma though Myxam._

 

It's also needed to make Shattering viable when playing a Mirage. Right now, unless you play with Phantasms, Infinite Horizon is a must take Trait, because without it, your clones have no DPS, no survivability, and you are instantly distinguishable from them by the Mirage Cloak. Which is why clones receiving Mirage Cloak is a necessity for the class fantasy.

 

If you agree, thumbs up this post so we can get it on the Dev's Table.

[Bottles.2095]

> @Myxam.2790 said:

>Right now, unless you play with Phantasms, Infinite Horizon is a must take Trait, because without it, your clones have no DPS, no survivability, and you are instantly distinguishable from them by the Mirage Cloak. Which is why clones receiving Mirage Cloak is a necessity for the class fantasy.

 

It's worth noting that Infinite Horizons is currently a DPS loss over Dune Cloak (on golem at least), even while running a clone build right now. Ambush numbers are in a strange place at the moment.

 

 

[Myxam.2790]



600 DPS loss over Infinite Horizon. Sure it is. ;)

[Bottles.2095]

Interesting as I'm consistently finding the opposite: https://imgur.com/a/kDQJe

 

Your build doesn't appear to be optimized (I'm not sure how much you're getting out of ineptitude in PvE) so maybe that's to do with it? Though I'm avoiding fencer's ferocity just for aesthetics so maybe I shouldn't be talking about optimization.

 

Edit: Mine were also on large golems, maybe that has some sort of effect? More runs to do I suppose.

 

Edit 2: Even on smaller hitboxes I'm still having the same result https://imgur.com/a/qKyb4 /shrug

[TehNoizee.8564]

Yeah, but from what I see you're using> @Bottles.2095 said:

> Interesting as I'm consistently finding the opposite: https://imgur.com/a/kDQJe

>

> Your build doesn't appear to be optimized (I'm not sure how much you're getting out of ineptitude in PvE) so maybe that's to do with it? Though I'm avoiding fencer's ferocity just for aesthetics so maybe I shouldn't be talking about optimization.

>

> Edit: Mine were also on large golems, maybe that has some sort of effect? More runs to do I suppose.

>

> Edit 2: Even on smaller hitboxes I'm still having the same result https://imgur.com/a/qKyb4 /shrug

 

From what I see you're using Pistol phantasm build, am I not right? That makes Dune cloak better for it and IH is better for Clone build...

[Bottles.2095]

> @TehNoizee.8564 said:

> Yeah, but from what I see you're using> @Bottles.2095 said:

 

> From what I see you're using Pistol phantasm build, am I not right? That makes Dune cloak better for it and IH is better for Clone build...

 

Nope, as I mentioned earlier I'm using pistol instead of sword primarily out of visual preference. I'm not summoning any phantasms. All pictures posted were ran with a pure clone build.

[Myxam.2790]

I get more use out of Ineptitude because I tend to shatter F2-F4 when I need them (which isn't optimal but reality does not conform to the builds on QTFY). I usually use F2 when Descent into Madness is coming off CD since I'm going to be spamming Axe 2 as much as I can in that field for Confusion. F3 for Break Bar. F4 for Distorts. The Prestige also inflicts Blinds so its just more Condi which is what the majority of stats are in.

 

While we're digressing, I think Mirage could see Grieving use after the Wintersday patch; Axe's base damage is obscene even on Viper Gear.

 

But this is sidetracking from the point of this thread: Infinite Horizon should be a Minor Trait for several reasons, which isn't affected by how it stacks up Dune Cloak (which is a more interesting trait but I'm digressing again). Thematically, it should just be this way and its not.

 

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @Myxam.2790 said:

> I get more use out of Ineptitude because I tend to shatter F2-F4 when I need them (which isn't optimal but reality does not conform to the builds on QTFY). I usually use F2 when Descent into Madness is coming off CD since I'm going to be spamming Axe 2 as much as I can in that field for Confusion. F3 for Break Bar. F4 for Distorts. The Prestige also inflicts Blinds so its just more Condi which is what the majority of stats are in.

>

> While we're digressing, I think Mirage could see Grieving use after the Wintersday patch; Axe's base damage is obscene even on Viper Gear.

>

> But this is sidetracking from the point of this thread: Infinite Horizon should be a Minor Trait for several reasons, which isn't affected by how it stacks up Dune Cloak (which is a more interesting trait but I'm digressing again). Thematically, it should just be this way and its not.

>

>

 

I'm already preparing whole change from Viper/Cele to Grieving/Cele for my open work and wvw hybrid build.

 

Looking forward to bigger crits on F1 and axe 3. :)

 

Anyway on topic I also would like to see IH made minor trait.

[OriOri.8724]

Chronophantasma is only borderline ok because phantasms take more resources (longer CD skills, no skill can summon 2 of htem at once, no trait will summon a phantasm) to summon than clones do. A trait that functions exactly the same but for clones would be ridiculously OP. As it is, illusionary reversion had to be nerfed when it only gives us 1 clone back instead of all 3. I'm not sure how you thought that this trait would be remotely balanced in any way.

[SlimChance.6593]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> Chronophantasma is only borderline ok because phantasms take more resources (longer CD skills, no skill can summon 2 of htem at once, no trait will summon a phantasm) to summon than clones do. A trait that functions exactly the same but for clones would be ridiculously OP. As it is, illusionary reversion had to be nerfed when it only gives us 1 clone back instead of all 3. I'm not sure how you thought that this trait would be remotely balanced in any way.

 

I’m of the opinion that IR was not nerfed in a vacuum. It was nerfed in combination with Chronophantasma.

 

Had ANET made IR a GM trait, making the player choose between IR and Chronophantasma, it probably wouldn’t have been touched.

[musu.9205]

anet has to decide what they want mirage does before making IH baseline

especially given current ambush attack are too weak / useless in all game mode except op sword ambush .

and do they ever consider to rework mirror .

i'd prefer a proper redesign for some skills , traits and mirror than bandaids .even it takes longer time

 

problem is anet never communicates with us , so i expect nothing and enjoy other class or chrono for now .

[OriOri.8724]

> @SlimChance.6593 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > Chronophantasma is only borderline ok because phantasms take more resources (longer CD skills, no skill can summon 2 of htem at once, no trait will summon a phantasm) to summon than clones do. A trait that functions exactly the same but for clones would be ridiculously OP. As it is, illusionary reversion had to be nerfed when it only gives us 1 clone back instead of all 3. I'm not sure how you thought that this trait would be remotely balanced in any way.

>

> I’m of the opinion that IR was not nerfed in a vacuum. It was nerfed in combination with Chronophantasma.

>

> Had ANET made IR a GM trait, making the player choose between IR and Chronophantasma, it probably wouldn’t have been touched.

 

You also have to account for core mesmer clone generation traits that could always be used alongside IR, such as deceptive evasion. Mesmer does not have a problem with clone generation. There's another issue here about whether clones are trash or not. And yet another issue as to whether phantasms need a fundamental rework of that mechanic, however none of that changes that IR was too powerful for shatter spam as it was, due in no small part to how much clone generation core mesmer already has. Buffing that even further would be ridiculous

[SlimChance.6593]

Mesmer has always have problems with clone generation. Every decent build needed DE.

 

Chrono has never had a problem with clone generation due to IR and Chronophantaam.

 

Mirage also has traits to retain clones and a weapon to help generation.

[Myxam.2790]

The idea of making that change is to make Shattering a viable tactical decision for Mirage. Ambush with Clones, or Phantasms, do not promote the desire to shatter them for any reason. Almost no situation outside of High-End Group PvE requires you to do so, and even in these situations its a matter of necessity rather than want.

 

Now that we have some discussion going -- how would you dissenters to my proposed change go about making Shatter a viable playstyle for Mirage as it is, and remove this non-choice that we currently have a the GM Major line?

[Kundry.1249]

> @"SlimChance.6593" said:

> Mesmer has always have problems with clone generation. Every decent build needed DE.

>

> Chrono has never had a problem with clone generation due to IR and Chronophantaam.

>

> Mirage also has traits to retain clones and a weapon to help generation.

 

A "mesmer" at this point is either a Chronomancer or a Mirage.

 

 

> @"Myxam.2790" said:

> The idea of making that change is to make Shattering a viable tactical decision for Mirage. Ambush with Clones, or Phantasms, do not promote the desire to shatter them for any reason. Almost no situation outside of High-End Group PvE requires you to do so, and even in these situations its a matter of necessity rather than want.

>

> Now that we have some discussion going -- how would you dissenters to my proposed change go about making Shatter a viable playstyle for Mirage as it is, and remove this non-choice that we currently have a the GM Major line?

 

How about a trait that increases the damage of your next shatter based on how many times your illusions have attacked the target? It won't be overpowered in pvp since this needs build-up and it's easy to avoid attacks from illusions or cleave them down in pvp.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

I hope we can eventually reach a point where the "ideal" damage build for an "active" playstyle for Mirage condi involves using *all* of the Axe skills (or other weapons skills) fairly frequently, and burning down your Endurance with Ambushes that are always a damage increase over your other options.

 

Shatters could easily fit into this rhythm by adding an Endurance-returning mechanic alongside the Vigor they bring.

 

In an ideal world, my version of our Mirage Traits would be:

 

Minor - Mirage Cloak - Gain Mirage Cloak for yourself and **your Clones** instead of dodge rolling. Ambush skills become available for a short time whenever you gain Mirage Cloak. Gain access to Deception skills..

 

Minor - Nomad's Endurance - Shatter skills give Vigor and +5 Endurance per Shatter (+20 Endurance for a full shatter). Vigor Grants Condition damage.

 

Minor Speed of Sand - No change.

 

Majors:

 

Top Row Traits - "Constant Clone Generation / Mirage Cloak Defensive " Traits, allowing us to have higher up-time on our Mirage Cloak in general by granting access to more clone generation, mirrors, and Distortion. Very good for the "duelist" type clone users and power builds.

 

* **Self Deception** - No Changes.

 

* **Mirrored Perfection** (new trait) - Gain Perfection for 5 seconds after receiving Mirage Cloak. Under Perfection, you gain +10% damage and Clones deal full damage with their auto attacks. Clones create a Mirage Mirror for 4 seconds upon death or if their target dies. (This would finally offer a Power Build option for clones, but would require active use of Endurance and Mirrors to maintain).

 

* **Desert Distortion** - This is a very cool trait, but Distortion itself baseline has an exceptionally long recharge. As mirage doesnt offer nearly as much support as Chronomancer, I feel this is a good area to insert some options. Changes: Moved to Grandmaster: "Illusions shattered by Distortion become Mirage Mirrors. Ambush skills become available for a short time whenever you grant distortion to yourself. Distortion's recharge time is reduced by 50%." (This opens up a huge amount of build options for a signet + inspiration distortion build, and allows more access to Distortion for Distortion Share builds. Replaces old spot of Infinite Horizon)

 

 

Bottom Row Traits - "Optimal" DPS traits for melee axe condition shatter Clone build.

 

* **Riddle of Sand** - When entering combat, you and your Clone's first Ambush attack applies confusion. This ability refreshes when you use a Shatter skill. (since IH is now baseline, this would work very well for a Shatter - Resumon clone style)

 

* **Afterimage Axes** (renamed) - Changed to no longer add a third axe. Reduces axe ability cool downs. Axe clones now persists for up to 5 seconds after their target is slain and may be redirected to a new target with any Axe ability.

 

* **Dune Cloak** - No changes. already promotes melee range use of Mirage Cloak and shattering Mirrors for condition builds.

 

Middle Row Traits - Personal survivability, Stun break, and anti-condi traits.

 

* **Renewing Oasis** - Increase the reduction of duration to 30%. (also have it effect Poison, bug fix)

 

* **Mirage Mantle** - Gain **Resistance** upon gaining Mirage Cloak (1.5s) and **Protection** upon Mirage Cloak ending (1.5s) (This would be a fantastic addition for personal survival builds, as you could "avoid" taking condition damage as you dodge, giving yourself time to cleanse, and then be protected against burst physical damage after a dodge)

 

* **Elusive Mind** - No change, great trait already and would pair well with the above Mirage Mantle trait.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @"Myxam.2790" said:

> The idea of making that change is to make Shattering a viable tactical decision for Mirage. Ambush with Clones, or Phantasms, do not promote the desire to shatter them for any reason. Almost no situation outside of High-End Group PvE requires you to do so, and even in these situations its a matter of necessity rather than want.

>

> Now that we have some discussion going -- how would you dissenters to my proposed change go about making Shatter a viable playstyle for Mirage as it is, and remove this non-choice that we currently have a the GM Major line?

 

Hopefully my examples above provide some meaningful "choice" in how we play.

 

Basically our grandmaster choice would now be "bottom row is maximum damage potential" when comparing Dune Cloak to Elusive Mind (best personal survivability) to my new version of Desert Distortion (which massively enhances our Mirror production and access to Distortion, working well with the Inspiration line).

 

I feel like that would open up a lot of build options for the mirage. The adjustments to Nomad's Endurance to also restore a small chunk of Endurance upon a successful Shatter (refunding 20 Endurance + the Vigor) would make shattering AFTER spamming down your Endurance, a really good idea. The flow would be:

 

 

Generate Clones, use Endurance up with Ambushes and any weapon skills that benefit from clones being out (Axe 3), then Shatter them to regain Endurance and gain Vigor, then use clone generators to resupply Clones, which will now have more Endurance available for more Ambushes. Fill in with Auto Attacks and Mirrors to supply more Ambushes while Endurance is recovering.

 

They would have to re-balance the Shatters and Ambushes to always be "a damage increase" over just autoattacking or using Phantasms, but the above play style sounds infinitely more enjoyable than the phantasm style we have now.

 

Also, with my proposed change to Riddle of the Sand, Shattering would also have the benefit of allowing our newly summoned Clones to each apply that fresh hit of Riddle, along with our own hit, helping make up for any "dps lost" from them not attacking for a bit while being shattered and recreated.

[Myxam.2790]

I like your suggestions Swiftwynd! I don't know if we'd ever see such a wild overhaul of the traits however, especially since its not a necessary one like Reaper was when it was reworked over and over.

 

So in a perfect world where ArenaNet could invest time in perfecting Mirage, I would love to see your post talked about!

 

However, I think Kundry's suggestion would be the most likely to happen.