Winterday balance patch

[Galmac.4680]

Oh oh, they will nerf condis again, less stacks that last longer. But necros must burst condis to survive... I guess, the necro class will be dead after this patch, nerfed again to below-ground.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Galmac.4680" said:

> Oh oh, they will nerf condis again, less stacks that last longer. But necros must burst condis to survive... I guess, the necro class will be dead after this patch, nerfed again to below-ground.

 

The problem is, Necro is Burst, Burst, Burst, Burst. Just like all other condition builds. There are VERY little amounts of down time before you riddle people with even more conditions than they were able to get rid of with their limited condi removal. On the plus side. Its Anet, Condi builds will actually end up stronger than before the "nerf" so you dont need to worry your mindless condi spamming wont be under threat.

[Dadnir.5038]

There is not much to nerf on the condi ramp up on necromancer so I wouldn't be this pessimistic but _epidemic_ might take a hit. Now I understand that losing _epidemic_ might be quite painfull.

 

If I had to make wild guesses:

- total rework of _epidemic_

- _Path of corruption_ will now corrupt boons into vulnerability.

- Probably make _desert shroud_ interruptible when taking a hard CC (which would be logical)

 

Honnestly, they can't tune down much more the necromancer's condi burst since the necromancer already have quite a long ramp up. In PvE, except for _epidemic_ this wouldn't hurt the necromancer and in PvP/WvW this might as well make things a bit more balanced.

[Vitali.5039]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> - _Path of corruption_ will now corrupt boons into vulnerability.

 

This could decrease _Target the Weak_'s, Necromancer's and Reaper's synergy for PvP/WvW builds (even if putting _Decimate Defenses_ in a better PvP/WvW spot).

At this point they could just add the boon corrupt to Dark Path and Death's Charge, and reworking the trait.

 

[Napo.1230]

I'm sorry but I hope this nerf does kill you.

However, i know it's Christmas but I don't think Anet will give me this Christmas miracle.

 

Buff power reaper delete scourge.

That's my Christmas list.

 

I'm getting lactose intolerant to all this cheese in wvw/pvp

[Jukens.1693]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> There is not much to nerf on the condi ramp up on necromancer so I wouldn't be this pessimistic but _epidemic_ might take a hit. Now I understand that losing _epidemic_ might be quite painfull.

>

> If I had to make wild guesses:

> - total rework of _epidemic_

> - _Path of corruption_ will now corrupt boons into vulnerability.

> - Probably make _desert shroud_ interruptible when taking a hard CC (which would be logical)

>

> Honnestly, they can't tune down much more the necromancer's condi burst since the necromancer already have quite a long ramp up. In PvE, except for _epidemic_ this wouldn't hurt the necromancer and in PvP/WvW this might as well make things a bit more balanced.

 

Might as well just remove the profession. Nobody uses epidemic on WvW, PvP after the previous nerf.

[The Geil.8605]

All I want is for them to fix the obstructed issue. Whether it's intended or not, it completely removed predictive gameplay from WvW. I can no longer place a shade on a wall, get out of harms way, and then do my bomb. Why "manifest" yourself somewhere else if you can't even use that for bombing later on? To me it seemed like a core part of the Scourge gameplay, but with the obstruced bug, that's completely gone.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jukens.1693" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > There is not much to nerf on the condi ramp up on necromancer so I wouldn't be this pessimistic but _epidemic_ might take a hit. Now I understand that losing _epidemic_ might be quite painfull.

> >

> > If I had to make wild guesses:

> > - total rework of _epidemic_

> > - _Path of corruption_ will now corrupt boons into vulnerability.

> > - Probably make _desert shroud_ interruptible when taking a hard CC (which would be logical)

> >

> > Honnestly, they can't tune down much more the necromancer's condi burst since the necromancer already have quite a long ramp up. In PvE, except for _epidemic_ this wouldn't hurt the necromancer and in PvP/WvW this might as well make things a bit more balanced.

>

> Might as well just remove the profession. Nobody uses epidemic on WvW, PvP after the previous nerf.

 

Well, if "nobody" use it then this is not an issue if it's reworked, ain't it? Just imagine that it's reworked in such a way that player use the new thing in all game modes but it's no longer a huge burst of conditions. Why would you remove the profession then? Instead it become a change "good" for the game and the necromancer as a whole.

 

_Epidemic_ is a condi burst with huge damage potential and no ramp up. This is the skill that is the most likely to be hit by a patch that aim to lengthen the condi ramp up of all the professions.

 

Assuming that you talk for PvE raid when you say that they "might as well just remove the profession", let's be honest, a profession that only count on a single utility skill among all it's tools to be viable in the gamemode need help. And if the "OP" skill that make him everything he is in the gamemode is in the way of other improvement then you have to get rid of this skill. No profession should rely on a single gimmick.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Napo.1230" said:

> I'm sorry but I hope this nerf does kill you.

> However, i know it's Christmas but I don't think Anet will give me this Christmas miracle.

>

> Buff power reaper delete scourge.

> That's my Christmas list.

>

> I'm getting lactose intolerant to all this cheese in wvw/pvp

 

This is Anet, i am expecting that Condi builds actually get a BUFF from this "nerf" because, well when has Anet ever taken the logical direction. They will SLIGHTLY decrease stacks on skills that arent even used. Buff up duration across the board and likely reduce Condi removal across all classes.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"The Geil.8605" said:

> All I want is for them to fix the obstructed issue. Whether it's intended or not, it completely removed predictive gameplay from WvW. I can no longer place a shade on a wall, get out of harms way, and then do my bomb. Why "manifest" yourself somewhere else if you can't even use that for bombing later on? To me it seemed like a core part of the Scourge gameplay, but with the obstruced bug, that's completely gone.

 

My wvw guild has pretty much dropped scourge from our comp, in favour of revs, because of this

[Aetatis.5418]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Napo.1230" said:

> > I'm sorry but I hope this nerf does kill you.

> > However, i know it's Christmas but I don't think Anet will give me this Christmas miracle.

> >

> > Buff power reaper delete scourge.

> > That's my Christmas list.

> >

> > I'm getting lactose intolerant to all this cheese in wvw/pvp

>

> This is Anet, i am expecting that Condi builds actually get a BUFF from this "nerf" because, well when has Anet ever taken the logical direction. They will SLIGHTLY decrease stacks on skills that arent even used. Buff up duration across the board and likely reduce Condi removal across all classes.

 

i fear... you might be right

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

If this kills Scourge, I would have to be forced back to Core Necro. I don't like Core Necro no more.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> If this kills Scourge, I would have to be forced back to Core Necro. I don't like Core Necro no more.

 

I actually like core necro more for WvW Zerg fights. It is way less efficient than a Scourge but definitely feels less spammy.

[Alpha.1308]

DoTs should be backloaded, not frontloaded... unless they have long cooldowns

this game favors short cooldowns, and ontop of that, no resources to spend to cast them (life force excluded)

 

their first mistake was making them frontloaded

 

then, we have condition damage, with no other stat that improves its total damage, where as power must utilize power, precision, and ferocity

 

then we finally got expertise into the game, which was a step in the right direction again

 

but, they still gave no way to reduce condition damage, but instead a complete removal of them or prevention of them

 

this is unfun to play against, and to play with

 

this game is whacked in terms of its balance, but if they continue down this road of making legitimate fixes that make sense, we could see something good here

 

this change is a nice little step in the right direction, i understand peoples frustration that it kills your "l33t burst", but it's honestly required for the health of this game

....... IF and only IF they actually decide to expand on this

 

we're going down the road of condi requiring another stat (expertise) along with backloading instead of frontloading the DoTs

this is for the better, even if it messes things up now

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Alpha.1308" said:

> DoTs should be backloaded, not frontloaded... unless they have long cooldowns

> this game favors short cooldowns, and ontop of that, no resources to spend to cast them (life force excluded)

>

> their first mistake was making them frontloaded

>

> then, we have condition damage, with no other stat that improves its total damage, where as power must utilize power, precision, and ferocity

>

> then we finally got expertise into the game, which was a step in the right direction again

>

> but, they still gave no way to reduce condition damage, but instead a complete removal of them or prevention of them

>

> this is unfun to play against, and to play with

>

> this game is whacked in terms of its balance, but if they continue down this road of making legitimate fixes that make sense, we could see something good here

>

> this change is a nice little step in the right direction, i understand peoples frustration that it kills your "l33t burst", but it's honestly required for the health of this game

> ....... IF and only IF they actually decide to expand on this

>

> we're going down the road of condi requiring another stat (expertise) along with backloading instead of frontloading the DoTs

> this is for the better, even if it messes things up now

 

This is not enterily true.

 

Technically, conditions damage benefit as much as power damage from precision since this stat allow you to proc the on crit conditions. Which mean that to maximize condition damage, since HoT, a combination of condition damage, expertise and precision is required. The same way that power damage need power, precision and ferocity.

 

DPS benchmarks show clearly this with viper stats being at the very front of the condition damage stat sets. DPS benchmarks also show that at the moment condition damages are not the builds that potentially do the most damage nor are they the builds that are top dps in PvE where they have more than enough time to ramp up.

 

There is a need to slow the ramp up of condition for the sake of PvP/WvW but objectively condition damages are not broken as a mean of dps, they are at a level close to power damage and need as many stats than power stats to reach their optimal potential damage.

 

On the topic of counter play condition damage can be:

- Blocked

- Evaded

- Prevented (blind)

- Cleansed

- Their duration can be reduced, leading to less condition damages (runes)

- Their damage can also be reduced directly (a few traits across professions)

- There is a way to completely resist their effects. (resistance)

 

While power damage can be:

- Blocked

- Evaded

- Resisted

- Prevented (blind)

- Reduced (protection/traits/ toughness/weakness)

 

There is as many counterplay to condition damage than there is to power damage, it's just that in PvP, players usually don't like lasting negative effects because they have to deal with them not just when they are applied but when they are built up to a point where it could become dangerous. It need you to track the conditions on you to keep them at a manageable point instead of just deal with an instant threat leaving you dead or alive.

[psizone.8437]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

>There is as many counterplay to condition damage than there is to power damage, it's just that in PvP, players usually don't like lasting negative effects because they have to deal with them not just when they are applied but when they are built up to a point where it could become dangerous. It need you to track the conditions on you to keep them at a manageable point instead of just deal with an instant threat leaving you dead or alive.

 

The problem is that some classes don't have access to enough cleanses or resistance to counter the amount of condition applied.

 

What needs to be done is:

* Certain classes need to have their condition spam application lowered, reapplying multiple stacks of multiple different conditions every few seconds is not great. (Big burst is fine, but not if it's on a low cooldown.)

* All classes need decent access to condition cleanses, even if it means giving up a skill slot or a good trait to get that condition removal. (Can't go full dps and expect to have a counter defense to everything.)

* Resistance needs lowered on certain classes or changed to work like Protection (33% condition damage reduction) and spread to more classes. (Spellbreakers high resistance uptime being able to turn off condition damage on any class that doesn't have good access to boon removal is not great.)

 

 

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"psizone.8437" said:

> What needs to be done is:

> * Certain classes need to have their condition spam application lowered, reapplying multiple stacks of multiple different conditions every few seconds is not great. (Big burst is fine, but not if it's on a low cooldown.)

 

That seem to be what they want to address is the wintersday patch indeed.

 

> * All classes need decent access to condition cleanses, even if it means giving up a skill slot or a good trait to get that condition removal. (Can't go full dps and expect to have a counter defense to everything.)

 

Most professions have already this in the fashion you present it, the issue is that most of the complains come from player that don't want to make the sacrifices. Which usually lead to the condi hate (and I understand them, it's frustrating to have to make sacrifice to counter something)

 

> * Resistance needs lowered on certain classes or changed to work like Protection (33% condition damage reduction) and spread to more classes. (Spellbreakers high resistance uptime being able to turn off condition damage on any class that doesn't have good access to boon removal is not great.

 

Resistance... I think it's a fine mechanism as it is, some condition immunity is ok, if not, we would have to questionned power damage immunity. No I think that instead they could introduce a stat that reduce incoming condition damage (let's call it "constitution"). It would do the same job than toughness but affect condition damage instead.

 

Thought I'm pretty sure that while it would do exactly what you're aiming for, Players would disregard the stat saying that they are worthless with this stat and still crying that conditions are op.

[Galmac.4680]

Necros don't have immunity to whatever at all.

[psizone.8437]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

 

> Resistance... I think it's a fine mechanism as it is, some condition immunity is ok, if not, we would have to questionned power damage immunity.

 

I didn't touch upon that since we were talking conditions but I think power damage immunities are poor design, too. Instead, they should be damage reductions (Protection), evades or blocks.

 

Doing this would force a little more active gameplay, limit skill hand-holding (Double Defy Pain Warrior being one of the worst offenders.) and add more counterplay other than waiting it out (Boon strip for Protection, evades are very short duration and blocks can be countered with Unblockable skills.)

 

Resistance right now is a patchwork fix to the problem of people not being able to cleanse the conditions that are being applied to them, if the condition application is fixed then it should be reworked or be limited in application.

 

 

[Slyven.8637]

I play a full celestial medic scourge, I don't think I'll feel a great impact on this nurf. Not like the other scourge types.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"psizone.8437" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> >There is as many counterplay to condition damage than there is to power damage, it's just that in PvP, players usually don't like lasting negative effects because they have to deal with them not just when they are applied but when they are built up to a point where it could become dangerous. It need you to track the conditions on you to keep them at a manageable point instead of just deal with an instant threat leaving you dead or alive.

>

> The problem is that some classes don't have access to enough cleanses or resistance to counter the amount of condition applied.

>

> What needs to be done is:

> * Certain classes need to have their condition spam application lowered, reapplying multiple stacks of multiple different conditions every few seconds is not great. (Big burst is fine, but not if it's on a low cooldown.)

> * All classes need decent access to condition cleanses, even if it means giving up a skill slot or a good trait to get that condition removal. (Can't go full dps and expect to have a counter defense to everything.)

> * Resistance needs lowered on certain classes or changed to work like Protection (33% condition damage reduction) and spread to more classes. (Spellbreakers high resistance uptime being able to turn off condition damage on any class that doesn't have good access to boon removal is not great.)

>

>

>

>

 

If you do this. The next step would be to lower power dmg. Cause then power dmg gets op.

 

And if you do this. You will also need to give more dmg mitigation for reapers. Since every other class has better options than reaper.

 

Right now its like: two-shot the enemy or get oneshotted as a reaper

[psizone.8437]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

 

> If you do this. The next step would be to lower power dmg. Cause then power dmg gets op.

>

> And if you do this. You will also need to give more dmg mitigation for reapers. Since every other class has better options than reaper.

>

> Right now its like: two-shot the enemy or get oneshotted as a reaper

 

Lowering condition damage doesn't make power damage more powerful. Although some power skills could use a little toning down, number 2 on Revenant hammer especially. (I'm mostly talking from a WvW perspective, things that are strong there may be awful in PvE)

 

Reaper with full shroud (without any shroud, I agree. We're just sitting ducks) and not running full zerkers isn't lacking in defense, though it could maybe use a block skill. (It has been suggested elsewhere but I'd love for shroud to be full when you spawn so we don't need to waste time killing chickens when we die or risk going into fights without any defense.)

 

What it's definitely lacking is proper access to Regeneration or a similar passive heal, perhaps a trait that converts life force to healing when your shroud is full.

[Rym.1469]

DoTs being actually DoTs is generally the right idea and direction. Stuff will need some ironing out after this update for sure and this may take couple months before the sweet spot between burst and sustain pressure is achieved, especially in competitive game modes, but balance is on the right path here.

 

I wouldn't mind restoring Terror to viability if Necro suddenly went back to 2012-2014 years when our DoTs couldn't stick for long enough. By that I mean moving this godawful master Fear trait from SR back into Adept/Master slot in Curses.

[Avigrus.2871]

If the condi nerf hits hard, the next classes on the PvP forums to be whined about;

1. Shatter Mesmer - one shot build.

2. Deadeye - one shot build - despite the fact that it's terribly designed compared with Daredevil, people hate getting one shot.

3. Hammer Revenant (esp. in WvW) - everyone will roll on the hammer train. 8K CORs incoming.

 

People will always complain about the class at the top of the food chain.

[psizone.8437]

> @"Avigrus.2871" said:

> People will always complain about the class at the top of the food chain.

 

People will always complain about things that are overused at the top of the food chain and things that are underpowered at the bottom. It's not just whining, it's part of how balance works.

 

Eventually the gap between the most powerful and the least powerful will shrink enough that there will be less complaints. Hopefully it'll shrink enough before the next load of elite specs is released and we start this cycle again.