Promoting positivity in the forums

[sephiroth.4217]

I upvote most people

[Lord Kreegan.8123]

Consider this:

If everything was positive and the White Knights and forum-mafia ruled, and no dissension was allowed, what would conversations be like?

[sarcasm]

White Knight #1: "Oh, everything is wonderful!"

White Knight #2: "Oh, I agree!"

White Knight #3: "Simply marvelous!"

White Knight #4: "This game is perfect!"

White Knight #5: "No bugs; no lag; no graphical hitching whatsoever; no bad level design; no bad mechanics; no balance issues... everything is great!"

White Knight #1: "Oh, yes, yes, yes!"

White Knight #2: "What should ANet work on next?"

White Knight #3: "Nothing! Or more of the same! Everything is wonderful!"

White Knight #4: "Oh, I agree!"

White Knight #5: "Me, too!"

White Knight #1: "I'll stroke your ego if you'll stroke my ego. We're all so wonderful! Just like ANet!"

White Knight #2: "Do you think they'll hire us because we're so wonderful?"

White Knight #3: "Oh, yes! That would be wonderful!"

White Knight #4: "Wonderful! Wonderful! Wonderful!"

White Knight #5: "It's so nice to be wonderful!"

White Knight #1: "Um... what were we talking about again?"

White Knight #2: "Same thing we were in the last thread..."

[/sarcasm]

[costepj.5120]

If you have ever completed a Belbin team roles exercise, you'll know there is a perfectly valid role labelled Blocker. The Blocker picks holes in the ideas put forward by the Plant. Constructive criticism is more valuable than being positive for the sake of it.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Anet should bring back downvotes to promote fair overview of player reactions, instead of current fake positivity.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> 5 YEARS later and im still waiting for the sucessor of guildwars 1, all that Anet showed so far is lame a very nooby game.

>

> Still waiting...but a salty wait.

 

Give up? It's been 5 years they won't change the game to be whatever you want it to be now.

[costepj.5120]

Not every game will appeal to every player. I love GW2. If you don't, your best plan is to find a game you do enjoy. There's nothing to be gained by waiting around in vain expectation for it to suddenly morph into a completely different game.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm going to be very stingy with my upvotes. Otherwise they won't matter. I only upvote for the following reasons:

 

(1) If somebody has said something that I came into the thread to say

(2) If somebody says something particularly funny

(3) If somebody makes a political statement that aligns with my views

(4) Very rarely if somebody brings an idea to my attention that I both like and have not considered.

[JustTrogdor.7892]

> @"Lord Kreegan.8123" said:

> Consider this:

> If everything was positive and the White Knights and forum-mafia ruled, and no dissension was allowed, what would conversations be like?

> [sarcasm]

> White Knight #1: "Oh, everything is wonderful!"

> White Knight #2: "Oh, I agree!"

> White Knight #3: "Simply marvelous!"

> White Knight #4: "This game is perfect!"

> White Knight #5: "No bugs; no lag; no graphical hitching whatsoever; no bad level design; no bad mechanics; no balance issues... everything is great!"

> White Knight #1: "Oh, yes, yes, yes!"

> White Knight #2: "What should ANet work on next?"

> White Knight #3: "Nothing! Or more of the same! Everything is wonderful!"

> White Knight #4: "Oh, I agree!"

> White Knight #5: "Me, too!"

> White Knight #1: "I'll stroke your ego if you'll stroke my ego. We're all so wonderful! Just like ANet!"

> White Knight #2: "Do you think they'll hire us because we're so wonderful?"

> White Knight #3: "Oh, yes! That would be wonderful!"

> White Knight #4: "Wonderful! Wonderful! Wonderful!"

> White Knight #5: "It's so nice to be wonderful!"

> White Knight #1: "Um... what were we talking about again?"

> White Knight #2: "Same thing we were in the last thread..."

> [/sarcasm]

 

In other words, GW2 Reddit.

 

[Gaile Gray.6029]

> Just a shout-out to not be stingy with the up-votes and thumbs-ups if you see a decent post.

> Promotes more positive contributions in the forums.

>

> I've seen posters change from non-constructive immature criticism to progressively helpful and positive comments.

> It is just one extra click to up-vote or thumbs-up a post.

>

> Don't hold back on promoting positivity!

 

I agree. I've seen people change for the better, as well. Sometimes I feel they're redeemed by the positive interaction they experience, even if they're involved in an healthy debate. In the end, I believe that a thumbs up has value and that our shared experience is improved by positive feedback. And I fully acknowledge anyone else's right to feel or act differently.

 

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> Also, would love to see options like mmorpg.com has which has "awesome, lol, insightful, kitten"... Dropping the kitten one would be good, though.

 

What are you suggesting, Opopanax? "Drop the kitten?" We will **never** drop the kitten in this forum! :D

 

I did think about more reactions, but in reviewing the mobile formatting, it seemed best to limit to the number we now have, particularly since the same system is used for reports and quotes.

 

> @"Umut.5471" said:

> Positive or negative, I upvote when I see a constructive comment.

> Just stating the problem won't solve anything, people should give ideas on how to solve it.

> Or if something is good, people should explain what makes it good so the developers can continue that way.

 

I like the way you think.

 

> @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> It's not a contest.

>

> Would rather see honest feedback rather than echo chamber fodder for thumb candy...

 

No, it's not a contest, by any means. Nor is posting up a storm, which is precisely why we don't display a Post Count on member profiles. (Quantity does not always equate to quality, after all.) I don't see where indicating your agreement with a post is meaningless. I believe that flagging a post as "Helpful" is actually of value to other members, as it calls attention to a post that may be of value to them, as well. Feel free to not use the reaction system, but I agree with EremiteAngel that doing so can contribute to a better atmosphere and sense of community. YMMV.

 

Also, in response to another post, no one is suggesting that every post be 100% positive and accepting of all things. I've seen an awfully lot of negative (but constructive) posts given a thumbs up! ;)

 

> @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

 

> Saying "Thank you" is worth so much more than saying "I'm sorry" !!

 

You said a lot right there. Words to live by!

 

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

 

> It's not the prospect of living in happiness or unhappiness, but understanding both and embracing the dichotomy to make you more resilient and appreciative.

 

Love this, especially i f becoming more resilient and appreciative results in expressing that appreciation to others.

 

[JustTrogdor.7892]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > Also, would love to see options like mmorpg.com has which has "awesome, lol, insightful, kitten"... Dropping the kitten one would be good, though.

>

> What are you suggesting, Opopanax? "Drop the kitten?" We will **never** drop the kitten in this forum! :D

>

> I did think about more reactions, but in reviewing the mobile formatting, it seemed best to limit to the number we now have, particularly since the same system is used for reports and quotes.

>

> > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > It's not a contest.

> >

> > Would rather see honest feedback rather than echo chamber fodder for thumb candy...

>

> No, it's not a contest, by any means. Nor is posting up a storm, which is precisely why we don't display a Post Count on member profiles. (Quantity does not always equate to quality, after all.)

>

> I don't see where indicating your agreement with a post is meaningless. I believe that flagging a post as "Helpful" is actually of value to other members, as it calls attention to a post that may be of value to them, as well. Feel free to not use the reaction system, but I agree with EremiteAngel that doing so can contribute to a better atmosphere and sense of community. YMMV.

 

Bring back the thumbs down. Thumbs up is pointless without it as it only allows for one point of quick agreement. It doesn't allow for those that disagree to respond without posting.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"JustTrogdor.7892" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > Also, would love to see options like mmorpg.com has which has "awesome, lol, insightful, kitten"... Dropping the kitten one would be good, though.

> >

> > What are you suggesting, Opopanax? "Drop the kitten?" We will **never** drop the kitten in this forum! :D

> >

> > I did think about more reactions, but in reviewing the mobile formatting, it seemed best to limit to the number we now have, particularly since the same system is used for reports and quotes.

> >

> > > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > > It's not a contest.

> > >

> > > Would rather see honest feedback rather than echo chamber fodder for thumb candy...

> >

> > No, it's not a contest, by any means. Nor is posting up a storm, which is precisely why we don't display a Post Count on member profiles. (Quantity does not always equate to quality, after all.)

> >

> > I don't see where indicating your agreement with a post is meaningless. I believe that flagging a post as "Helpful" is actually of value to other members, as it calls attention to a post that may be of value to them, as well. Feel free to not use the reaction system, but I agree with EremiteAngel that doing so can contribute to a better atmosphere and sense of community. YMMV.

>

> Bring back the thumbs down. Thumbs up is pointless without it as it only allows for one point of quick agreement. It doesn't allow for those that disagree to respond without posting.

 

No, it's not pointless and you basically explained why in your own response...without a thumbs down it makes it so those that disagree with a post have to respond with their own post...hopefully in a civil tone and providing sufficient reasoning behind why they disagree and what they think instead(however, I will say that not all people are capable of providing said response).

[Gaile Gray.6029]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said:

> >

> > Bring back the thumbs down. Thumbs up is pointless without it as it only allows for one point of quick agreement. It doesn't allow for those that disagree to respond without posting.

>

> No, it's not pointless and you basically explained why in your own response...without a thumbs down it makes it so those that disagree with a post have to respond with their own post...hopefully in a civil tone and providing sufficient reasoning behind why they disagree and what they think instead(however, I will say that not all people are capable of providing said response).

 

Thank you. The "anonymous flaming" through Thumbs Down did not contribute to a healthy forum environment and there was a clear pattern of harassment visible in the misuse of the system. I've seen that factor on other forums in which I've been active as an admin or a member and whatever the believed merits of such a choice, the bad outweighs the good. In short, in just a few days, the destructive and non-contributing nature of the Thumbs Down was clearly exposed, and we will not be going that way again.

 

Each member should simply feel free to ignore the reactions if they choose. Nothing weights the value of a post unless a member allows it to do so -- not reactions, nor responses, nor number of views or posts in a thread. They only matter to you if you allow them to matter.

[JustTrogdor.7892]

Still, I don't agree with the system that only allows for points, thumbs, stars, whatever in agreement. Really who gives a damn anyway? It isn't like getting a thumb down or up means anything. It doesn't affect the post, ability to post, or anything else related to forum membership. But a thumb down does quickly say, "I disagree". As for "anonymous flaming" through Thumbs Down, I don't see that happening on GW2's Reddit forum. You know that place where you do AMAs and get flack for posting more often than here.

 

Maybe get rid of both, down and up, and just leave helpful if you want to be more honestly balanced. .

[Mourningcry.9428]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> ...

> > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > It's not a contest.

> >

> > Would rather see honest feedback rather than echo chamber fodder for thumb candy...

>

> No, it's not a contest, by any means. Nor is posting up a storm, which is precisely why we don't display a Post Count on member profiles. (Quantity does not always equate to quality, after all.) I don't see where indicating your agreement with a post is meaningless. I believe that flagging a post as "Helpful" is actually of value to other members, as it calls attention to a post that may be of value to them, as well. Feel free to not use the reaction system, but I agree with EremiteAngel that doing so can contribute to a better atmosphere and sense of community. YMMV.

> ...

 

 

Actually, "Comment" and "Discussion" counts are displayed (rightside, under the avatar ;)

 

And while I never claimed that indication of agreement is meaningless, it is nevertheless inconclusive that such indication is an actual measurement of value or quality. Such indicators are merely a barometer of like mindedness.

 

_edit formatting_

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said:

> > >

> > > Bring back the thumbs down. Thumbs up is pointless without it as it only allows for one point of quick agreement. It doesn't allow for those that disagree to respond without posting.

> >

> > No, it's not pointless and you basically explained why in your own response...without a thumbs down it makes it so those that disagree with a post have to respond with their own post...hopefully in a civil tone and providing sufficient reasoning behind why they disagree and what they think instead(however, I will say that not all people are capable of providing said response).

>

> Thank you. The "anonymous flaming" through Thumbs Down did not contribute to a healthy forum environment and there was a clear pattern of harassment visible in the misuse of the system. I've seen that factor on other forums in which I've been active as an admin or a member and whatever the believed merits of such a choice, the bad outweighs the good. In short, in just a few days, the destructive and non-contributing nature of the Thumbs Down was clearly exposed, and we will not be going that way again.

>

> Each member should simply feel free to ignore the reactions if they choose. Nothing weights the value of a post unless a member allows it to do so -- not reactions, nor responses, nor number of views or posts in a thread. They only matter to you if you allow them to matter.

 

Thumbs down is no more "flaming" than disagreeing or ignoring someone, tho. And I think a thumbs up contributes far less (if anything) to a healthy forum environment than a dissenting post ever would.

 

And the destructive and non-contributing nature that was wrought, I'd say, wasn't because of the thumbs down button but those complaining that their sensibilities were challenged by an informal consensus of those that disagreed.

 

I personally feel the option is too far gone now but at least present the scenario in an non-bias light. The unfiltered truth is, people whined loud enough so you did something about it. End of story.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

>

> Thank you. The "anonymous flaming" through Thumbs Down did not contribute to a healthy forum environment and there was a clear pattern of harassment visible in the misuse of the system. I've seen that factor on other forums in which I've been active as an admin or a member and whatever the believed merits of such a choice, the bad outweighs the good. In short, in just a few days, the destructive and non-contributing nature of the Thumbs Down was clearly exposed, and we will not be going that way again.

>

> Each member should simply feel free to ignore the reactions if they choose. Nothing weights the value of a post unless a member allows it to do so -- not reactions, nor responses, nor number of views or posts in a thread. They only matter to you if you allow them to matter.

 

Completely agree and well said.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

>

> I personally feel the option is too far gone now but at least present the scenario in an non-bias light. The unfiltered truth is, people whined loud enough so you did something about it. End of story.

 

No bias. Fact. I find it both personally and professionally inappropriate to put people into categories and dismiss them, or their opinions, because they fall within a specific group. Nor do I believe it's of value to try to categorize people into "us versus them" subsets, nor classify them as whiners when they express their opinions... even if I strongly disagree with them. The decision was not a result of complaints, although we certainly noted them, as we noted (and note today) those who feel the Down Vote was of value. Ultimately, the decision to eliminate that factor was made as a result of careful observation, statistical analyses, research, and listening to *all* opinions, pro and con.

 

> @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

 

> Actually, "Comment" and "Discussion" counts are displayed (rightside, under the avatar ;)

 

You're right. I should have been clearer: The number of posts does not gain anyone forum rewards, such as badges or titles. A member with 4,000 posts is no more significant than one with 4. Every member is of great worth.

 

And yet, frankly, I seem to remember listing on my outline for the structure that post counts *not* be visible.... :)

[JustTrogdor.7892]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> >

> > I personally feel the option is too far gone now but at least present the scenario in an non-bias light. The unfiltered truth is, people whined loud enough so you did something about it. End of story.

>

> No bias. Fact. I find it both personally and professionally inappropriate to put people into categories and dismiss them, or their opinions, because they fall within a specific group. Nor do I believe it's of value to try to categorize people into "us versus them" subsets, nor classify them as whiners when they express their opinions... even if I strongly disagree with them. The decision was not a result of complaints, although we certainly noted them, as we noted (and note today) those who feel the Down Vote was of value. Ultimately, **the decision to eliminate that factor was made as a result of careful observation, statistical analyses, research , and listening to *all* opinions, pro and con.**

 

You made that decision after just a few days of the new forum being live.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/131515#Comment_131515

>We have removed the "Thumbs Down" option in our Reaction System

 

That was done Sep 19th. The new forum launched Sep 12. That wasn't really a lot of time (5 business days) for careful observation, statistical analyses, and research. I'm sorry but given the newness of the forum at the time, people playing with features, and margin of error there is no way you got anything statistically relevant over that short time period. Just saying. But whatever it is all pointless anyway, pun intended.

 

 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I have to wonder.... Why is a Thumbs down vote flaming, if a Thumbs up vote isn't brown-nosing? Or...if Thumbs up is a sincere vote of appreciation or agreement, then why isn't Thumbs down a sincere vote of disagreement or disapproval? Kind of sounds like a double-standard.

 

Oh, well, I suppose it matters little. /shrug

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> No bias. Fact. I find it both personally and professionally inappropriate to put people into categories and dismiss them, or their opinions, because they fall within a specific group.

 

Then you'd have to jump to the conclusion that people would be divided by categories and dismissed because they are not agreed with. And opinions do not have rights and assuming that all opinions should be cherished or equally considered is where I cannot agree with you. But even if the mentioned opinions are not treated equally, they are not dismissed nor is the person who holds such opinions so long as they can express those opinions, which the thumbs down button did not infringe.

 

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

>Nor do I believe it's of value to try to categorize people into "us versus them" subsets, nor classify them as whiners when they express their opinions... even if I strongly disagree with them. The decision was not a result of complaints, although we certainly noted them, as we noted (and note today) those who feel the Down Vote was of value. Ultimately, the decision to eliminate that factor was made as a result of careful observation, statistical analyses, research, and listening to *all* opinions, pro and con.

>

 

The reason I'd categorize them as whiners is because the cux of their complaint was that being thumbs downed caused them some sort of anguish. That is a minor gripe, akin to complaining about being cold on a bus ride or something. If enough people complain the bus is cold, someone will turn the heater on, but I'd hardly conflate a minor chill to mental anguish that must be corrected...but that's what people mostly complained about.

 

It doesn't take careful observation, statistical analyses or research to know that thumbing down someone's posts has no *actual* effect.

 

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

It is interesting how some-what off topic this got. I am of the opinion that thumbs up/down/helpful aren't necessarily useful (although helpful option is interesting since I haven't seen it before elsewhere). These interactions seem more for the reader to feel like that they did something or contributed to the conversation. Except that contribution to any discussion in this manner is obviously limited, which is where their value stops. It's more of a pat on the pack for those that give out these things to feel like that they added to discussion when they haven't really...something something something...Slacktivism.

 

Right, let's keep positive and assume that ANET has done their research in forums and they draw from their previous experience in deciding on leaving out thumbs down (Gaile did mention she worked on other Forums).

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Here is something I learned long ago on this forum and others: if you don't engage, there are no feelings to be hurt.

 

Sometimes, walking away from an opposing opinion or argument is the best option for all involved. It can also be the hardest thing when you feel your position is correct whether morally or intellectually. But if it feeds negative outcomes, then not engaging with those posters and their comments is also — and absolutely — the correct course.

 

As far as thumbs down? We've all seen its effects on Reddit, and its abuse to no end. Let's not have that nonsense here.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> I have to wonder.... Why is a Thumbs down vote flaming, if a Thumbs up vote isn't brown-nosing? Or...if Thumbs up is a sincere vote of appreciation or agreement, then why isn't Thumbs down a sincere vote of disagreement or disapproval? Kind of sounds like a double-standard.

>

> Oh, well, I suppose it matters little. /shrug

 

It's not always flaming, sorry if you misunderstood. It can be used to flame, as it was in early days. When someone seeks out posts and downvotes every single post by a specific member, when that same someone has been noted to have exhibited antipathy towards that same member in earlier instances, you have to consider "Gee, that might be a little personal, a little flame-ish." :D

 

> @"JustTrogdor.7892" said:

 

> That was done Sep 19th. The new forum launched Sep 12. That wasn't really a lot of time (5 business days) for careful observation, statistical analyses, and research. I'm sorry but given the newness of the forum at the time, people playing with features, and margin of error there is no way you got anything statistically relevant over that short time period. Just saying. But whatever it is all pointless anyway, pun intended.

>

Yep, that's how dramatic the situation was, and how clearly it needed to be changed. Our European Team weighed in on the matter from their perspective. In fact, they brought it up first and expressly stronger opinions than I harbored (or feel even now). Given their feelings and the outcome of our collective research -- which involved data and discussions with a number of team members, inside and outside the Forums Team -- we acted. Swiftly, yes. I don't know what timeframe you would feel is appropriate, but the team was unanimous about the decision. I grant you disagree. I will not apologize for making a good decision.

 

And GDchiaScrub is right -- this topic has veered quite a bit off topic. That's a shame, because I believe it started with such a good and positive intention.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

>

> It's not always flaming, sorry if you misunderstood. It can be used to flame, as it was in early days. When someone seeks out posts and downvotes every single post by a specific member, when that same someone has been noted to have exhibited antipathy towards that same member in earlier instances, you have to consider "Gee, that might be a little personal, a little flame-ish." :dizzy:

 

Bingo. And let's not kid ourselves. That's exactly what happened.

[JustTrogdor.7892]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > I have to wonder.... Why is a Thumbs down vote flaming, if a Thumbs up vote isn't brown-nosing? Or...if Thumbs up is a sincere vote of appreciation or agreement, then why isn't Thumbs down a sincere vote of disagreement or disapproval? Kind of sounds like a double-standard.

> >

> > Oh, well, I suppose it matters little. /shrug

>

> It's not always flaming, sorry if you misunderstood. It can be used to flame, as it was in early days. When someone seeks out posts and downvotes every single post by a specific member, when that same someone has been noted to have exhibited antipathy towards that same member in earlier instances, you have to consider "Gee, that might be a little personal, a little flame-ish." :D

 

And down voting posts do what in this forum? Does it affect the ability of the person to post? Does it affect anything else or is it just some number? I posted a message the other day on a website. It got over 30 down votes. Guess what, I survived it and I can still post more messages. :)

 

Not everyone deserves a participation trophy and sometimes participation comes with discomfort like someone saying you are full of $*&t or a down vote.