Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 That's you though. Some posters would feel less than inclined to post ever again because of it. It also, whether direct or indirect, can create something of a toxic environment. And I believe ANet wants the forums to be used more . . . not less. Again, just something to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamy Lu.3865 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I am not posted since long time in this forum, but from what I have seen up to now, I believe that mainly, there is the same recurring - typical and almost standard - "error" than in every talks in real life: Many posters take their personal opinion - valid based on their own personal criteria only - and make it a global statement as if it would be a proven fact valid for all. It is important to differentiate between "personal opinion" and "fact", and also important to always explain why we think the way we think, so that others can follow/understand and answer. Another thing is that most posters come here because they have something to complain about, want to criticize or suggest improvements. It is good to share on this platform, however, it tends to give an overall negative appearance about the game. It combines with a general tendency to make global statements about "a majority of players thinks that.....", what is maybe true, or maybe not. We can't tell. We are a tiny sample here, with a majority of criticizers. I don't think that we can be representative of a real majority. Generally, what I miss the most is to see once in a while valid concrete figures that would confirm - or correct - statements made in the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said: > Still, I don't agree with the system that only allows for points, thumbs, stars, whatever in agreement. Really who gives a kitten anyway? It isn't like getting a thumb down or up means anything. It doesn't affect the post, ability to post, or anything else related to forum membership. But a thumb down does quickly say, "I disagree". And a lack of thumbs down makes the person disagreeing actually put up a little bit of an effort in order to say _why_ they disagree. > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said: >As for "anonymous flaming" through Thumbs Down, I don't see that happening on GW2's Reddit forum. Then you aren't paying attention. GW2 reddit is actually well known for being the place where posts with unpopular thoughts (or made by unpopular redditors) get downvoted into oblivion, and was often used as an _example_ of why downvotes should be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi Spender.1082 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said: > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > > Also, would love to see options like mmorpg.com has which has "awesome, lol, insightful, kitten"... Dropping the kitten one would be good, though. > > > > What are you suggesting, Opopanax? "Drop the kitten?" We will **never** drop the kitten in this forum! :D > > > > I did think about more reactions, but in reviewing the mobile formatting, it seemed best to limit to the number we now have, particularly since the same system is used for reports and quotes. > > > > > @"Mourningcry.9428" said: > > > It's not a contest. > > > > > > Would rather see honest feedback rather than echo chamber fodder for thumb candy... > > > > No, it's not a contest, by any means. Nor is posting up a storm, which is precisely why we don't display a Post Count on member profiles. (Quantity does not always equate to quality, after all.) > > > > I don't see where indicating your agreement with a post is meaningless. I believe that flagging a post as "Helpful" is actually of value to other members, as it calls attention to a post that may be of value to them, as well. Feel free to not use the reaction system, but I agree with EremiteAngel that doing so can contribute to a better atmosphere and sense of community. YMMV. > > Bring back the thumbs down. Thumbs up is pointless without it as it only allows for one point of quick agreement. It doesn't allow for those that disagree to respond without posting. The problem mostly is people like to thumbs down or tell others to thumbs down something just out of protest and go "hahahaha look at all those thumbs down you got" and not actually because of them just not liking what the person said. The way it's set up now you either like what someone said enough to give it a thumbs up or you just pass over saying "Eh" or "No... that person is crazy" or "If it was just a bit worse what you said... I would report you..." and just move on. I've even seen it on Youtube. "Oh, this thing didn't entertain me. Thumbs down." or "Took too long to give me info. Thumbs down." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malisivo.5264 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I'd like to say that offering constructive criticism without expecting anything in return shows that you care. And constructive criticism SHOULD promote positivity, even though it doesn't at times... I agree, OP, that clicking the "thumbs up" is one way to promote positivity, but the BEST way? Being honest and accepting honesty from others. (Silly, I know, but I'm an elementary teacher IRL. XD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi Spender.1082 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"malisivo.5264" said: > I'd like to say that offering constructive criticism without expecting anything in return shows that you care. And constructive criticism SHOULD promote positivity, even though it doesn't at times... I agree, OP, that clicking the "thumbs up" is one way to promote positivity, but the BEST way? Being honest and accepting honesty from others. (Silly, I know, but I'm an elementary teacher IRL. XD) In Elementary School, many times when I was honest I got in trouble so I had to learn how to lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malisivo.5264 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" > In Elementary School, many times when I was honest I got in trouble so I had to learn how to lie. Same here. But, because of that, I've become a teacher that can catch when kids are lying and ensure that they tell the truth, regardless of the consequences. And they are less likely to get in trouble later on. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashabhi.1365 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 The whole "thumbs" system is an ego-stroking mechanism, no more, no less. It is completely plausible that the reason someone has (insert number) of "thumbs ups" is because they told their guild (friends, whatever) come to the forum and click so it looks like it's a popular post. It's not an accurate indicator of whether a post is truly liked or just artificially elevated. I'll be honest, I think the "thumbs up" button ought to go the way of the "thumbs down" button. Regardless of the topic, it truly doesn't matter how many people on a forum agree with you (or not.) If you feel strongly about a post, say so. Take the time to quote the person and then comment positively... or negatively as the case may be. I can judge the validity of a post by the responses a lot more accurately than how many "thumbs up" someone has gotten. (Disclaimer: This is solely my opinion. It is no more or less valid than anyone else's opinion. If you agree with me, please don't use the "thumbs" button.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwilightSoul.9048 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Umbramare.9156" said: > This forum is moderated so heavily that anything that might not be all lovey dovey is getting killed off anyway. > > Any more and you could open this as a "my little pony" subforum. I have experienced that too, to some extend but I've also experienced that, as long as you watch your language, criticism will be well received here as well. However lot's of people like to jump on more "unpopular" opinions which often derails a thread - so if you're posting a "unpopular" or a more critical opinion you should try to avoid very short or rude posts and not engage in derailing discussions afterwards. Overall I was never one to just accept everything, I like to question things and have had a good number of my posts be removed for beeing derailing or offtopic but after contacting the forum support I have a better understanding of the reasoning behind those actions and know that my point has also been understood. For people who like to discuss it's always hard to decide not to answer a post but I've learned to like/ignore more and post less. And when I do post I try to include more different perspectives and so far it works out great - I haven't had another post of mine removed and I am still questioning whatever I want :) > @"Ashabhi.1365" said: > The whole "thumbs" system is an ego-stroking mechanism, no more, no less. It is completely plausible that the reason someone has (insert number) of "thumbs ups" is because they told their guild (friends, whatever) come to the forum and click so it looks like it's a popular post. It's not an accurate indicator of whether a post is truly liked or just artificially elevated. That might be true for some cases but I don't think that is generally true, I'll use myself as an example, none of my friends/Guildmembers (who are the same as my friends) use the Forum so I know for a fact that I have no Thumbs-Up from my friends. So I pretty much know that whenever I receive a Thumbs Up I know that somewhere someone agrees with me or likes what I've added into the discussion (or maybe someone just sympathizes with me) and all of that is a good thing to me. I'm happy to know my effort is beeing appreciated, I often spent a lot of time thinking about a topic before posting and receiving likes encourages me to keep spending time doing so. > I work to better myself and the rest of the community. Slightly modified quote from James T. Kirk - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home >! Original: "We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Umbramare.9156" said: > This forum is moderated so heavily that anything that might not be all lovey dovey is getting killed off anyway. > > Any more and you could open this as a "my little pony" subforum. It's pretty easy to avoid forum moderation strikes. All you need to do is stay 100% passive agressive. About what Gaile said, it was already debunked by other poster and thank you for this. To make this place somewhat constructive either give back thumbs down button to give us full overview of player reaction ar remove reactions altogether. Current system is uncostructive and creates an illusion of customers being happy with everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said: > >As for "anonymous flaming" through Thumbs Down, I don't see that happening on GW2's Reddit forum. > Then you aren't paying attention. GW2 reddit is actually well known for being the place where posts with unpopular thoughts (or made by unpopular redditors) get downvoted into oblivion, and was often used as an _example_ of why downvotes should be removed. > > The difference is of how reddit filters posts. Here, you just need to keep discussion alive to make your thread on first page. On reddit you must appeal to their ruling community to coming up on front page. I prefer forums being controlled by mods instead of playerbase. Reddit is best example why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > It's not always flaming, sorry if you misunderstood. It can be used to flame, as it was in early days. When someone seeks out posts and downvotes every single post by a specific member, when that same someone has been noted to have exhibited antipathy towards that same member in earlier instances, you have to consider "Gee, that might be a little personal, a little flame-ish." :D > The thing is, disagreeing, even with tact, can be considered by some as flaming. In fact, that is what drives the culture war in the US now-a-days, is this incessant need to police people's opinions and present personal experiences as group experiences. This is why I mentioned "resilience and appreciation" because you can't really appreciate a person disagreeing with you politely if you know they are only doing so because they are so rigidly confined in how they can express themselves that they don't have a choice. > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > Yep, that's how dramatic the situation was, and how clearly it needed to be changed. Our European Team weighed in on the matter from their perspective. In fact, they brought it up first and expressly stronger opinions than I harbored (or feel even now). Given their feelings and the outcome of our collective research -- which involved data and discussions with a number of team members, inside and outside the Forums Team -- we acted. Swiftly, yes. I don't know what timeframe you would feel is appropriate, but the team was unanimous about the decision. I grant you disagree. I will not apologize for making a good decision. > > And GDchiaScrub is right -- this topic has veered quite a bit off topic. That's a shame, because I believe it started with such a good and positive intention. A good decision? It's debatable. Perhaps a necessary decision due to the amount of complaints. And I feel it's actually only a slight tangent, not really "quite a bit off topic" because the nature of upvotes, how and why they are given is intrinsically tied to people's opinions, just like the thumbs down button was. In fact, I'd say I'm *LESS* likely to upvote for the sole reason that a thumbs down doesn't exist. Not because I'm stingy (as the OP suggests) but because they are no longer used to counter a thumbs down. That is, one of the previous uses I had for thumbs up was to counter a thumbs down that I felt was unnecessary. Oh, and I do recall mentioning that people would start looking to farm thumbs up at some point, which is an abuse of the system. Is that going to be ignored because it also is trivial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said: > > Still, I don't agree with the system that only allows for points, thumbs, stars, whatever in agreement. Really who gives a kitten anyway? It isn't like getting a thumb down or up means anything. It doesn't affect the post, ability to post, or anything else related to forum membership. But a thumb down does quickly say, "I disagree". > And a lack of thumbs down makes the person disagreeing actually put up a little bit of an effort in order to say _why_ they disagree. Or it can just result in silence. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDchiaScrub.3241 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said: > > > Still, I don't agree with the system that only allows for points, thumbs, stars, whatever in agreement. Really who gives a kitten anyway? It isn't like getting a thumb down or up means anything. It doesn't affect the post, ability to post, or anything else related to forum membership. But a thumb down does quickly say, "I disagree". > > And a lack of thumbs down makes the person disagreeing actually put up a little bit of an effort in order to say _why_ they disagree. > > Or it can just result in silence. > > > > > > ... > > > > You can argue they didn't disagree "hard enough" then. If you deal with customers, and when they have a complaint, they make themselves known more than just by a thumbs down. _P.S. I wouldn't shed a tear if "Thumbs Up" was removed. Neither provide a reason for that limited interaction. A "Thumbs Up "on a troll post is the same in a quantitative sense to a "Thumbs Up" in a fan fiction. Even if both contexts are different. At least "Helpful" is a loose reason for that limited interaction since "Helpful" is a functional reason. The only justifiable reason (that I can see) to keep "Thumbs Up" is for proximity to "Helpful." This keeps the "Helpful" from being used or spammed as a "Thumbs Up" If "Helpful" was the only limited interaction available. You can, of course, provide a few more options besides "Helpful" (not more than 3 imo)_ WeeeeeEEeeee! (E is my stability key, W is my forward key) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kako.1930 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I've always been horrible at this, even on other sites like YouTube. You're right though. It's good to give credit where it's due! Thumbs up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said: > > > > Still, I don't agree with the system that only allows for points, thumbs, stars, whatever in agreement. Really who gives a kitten anyway? It isn't like getting a thumb down or up means anything. It doesn't affect the post, ability to post, or anything else related to forum membership. But a thumb down does quickly say, "I disagree". > > > And a lack of thumbs down makes the person disagreeing actually put up a little bit of an effort in order to say _why_ they disagree. > > > > Or it can just result in silence. > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > You can argue they didn't disagree "hard enough" then. > > If you deal with customers, and when they have a complaint, they make themselves known more than just by a thumbs down. Well, if you're a person pitching a new product or invention and no one even looks at it, you probably wouldn't even try to change our improve it, you'd likely just drop it as a dud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpheal.8263 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 promotign more positivity in this forums .. I guess we will see here automaticalyl some more positivity in this forum, once ANet begins with their bi-weekly Forum Chat ... The absense of "reactions" is also a strong indicator for an increase of toxity in forums, because if you get no reactions at all to your input, then this automatically feeds over time only frustration - and once there is at some point frustration in the forums, it can easily turn over into anger and anger creates quickly toxity/negativity among forum users, especially among peole that have never learned how to handle their emotions and search in the forums just a ventile to let their steam off somehow ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"JustTrogdor.7892" said: > > > Still, I don't agree with the system that only allows for points, thumbs, stars, whatever in agreement. Really who gives a kitten anyway? It isn't like getting a thumb down or up means anything. It doesn't affect the post, ability to post, or anything else related to forum membership. But a thumb down does quickly say, "I disagree". > > And a lack of thumbs down makes the person disagreeing actually put up a little bit of an effort in order to say _why_ they disagree. > > Or it can just result in silence. > Well, it would simply mean that you didn't really care enough about the subject. And in that case, no need for thumbs down anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Orpheal.8263" said: > The absense of "reactions" is also a strong indicator for an increase of toxity in forums, because if you get no reactions at all to your input, then this automatically feeds over time only frustration - and once there is at some point frustration in the forums, it can easily turn over into anger and anger creates quickly toxity/negativity among forum users, especially among peole that have never learned how to handle their emotions and search in the forums just a ventile to let their steam off somehow ... And there you go. Keep in mind, and I'll include myself in this equation, a lot of us stopped using the old forum for this reason alone. Certain posters, and their eagerness to report anything they didn't like, was way out of hand. The five days of the 'thumbs down' situation proved this out. Point of fact, ANet can see that specific posters thumbs down everything and anything another specific poster(s) would say. That's not constructive. That's just vindictive and petty. And to bring this back to the topic? That also doesn't bring anything positive to the community nor the forum. And you take it from me when I tell you ONE person can destroy an entire forum with his behavior. VN Boards didn't disappear just because of Official Forums. It disappeared because certain posters poisoned the community so much that no one wanted to post anything there. It became a haven for trolls and their rampant, and vindictive, pay-attention-to-me, stupidity. You do NOT want that kind of situation here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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