Is ANet forgetting how kittened conditions were in open world PvE?

[Conncept.7638]

Probably not about what you are thinking this thread is about from the title, from a balance perspective I am A-OK with ANet making conditions less bursty.

 

BUT, anybody who has been around for a while knows that once upon a time tagging mobs in PvE for a condition build was a virtual impossibility, you HAD to use power or lose out on a lot of mob tags or even lose out completely on event credit, especially in sub-80 areas where things die when you breath on them.

 

This issue was solved before condition stacking was removed in a series of changes that made conditions more frontloaded, raising their initial damage at the cost of damage over time. Back then these changes really didn't cause any issues because conditions didn't even function well enough to be a balance issue.

 

And now that they do function, for balance reasons, those changes are going to be reversed and then some, and I see nothing addressing this issue.

 

Please ANet, tell me this was not a poorly thought out snap decision, where you didn't consider the consequences, and that there is some kind of new system that is going to keep condi builds from being screwed in open world PvE like they were previously.

[Genesis.5169]

Nope no one remembers.

No even remember that were in a power meta, and that the best dps specs are power.

And in SPvP most specs are power and there condition equiv is inferior most the time.

People forget that we have been in a power meta for 3+ years and its never left.

People forget that Condition are only really used on necros and mesmers and everyone else is split down the middle.

People forget that in WvW against condition bomb you can just blast on leap light fields to reduce or remove condition damage.

 

Yeah i mad.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Whatever ANet has planned for Tuesday is already baked into the build; it's not going to change on Monday because one of us wrote a great post pointing out some flaw that they didn't consider.

 

So let's wait to see what actually changes **and** give it a month or two, so we can figure how to adapt to the changes. Then, we can complain like crazy if it turns out that conditions become useless in short fights. (Clearly, there's almost no way that they'll be anything but substantial in longer fights, even if they turn out to be 5% below power.)

[TexZero.7910]

Yeah i remember.....

 

And they were bad for none of the reason your wrote about.

People overwriting existing conditions with their less damaging conditions was a thing, every encounter being capped at 25 was a thing. Those things aren't going away come 12/12 so you can quite reasonably expect conditions to still be viable.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Yeah i remember.....

>

> And they were bad for none of the reason your wrote about.

> People overwriting existing conditions with their less damaging conditions was a thing, every encounter being capped at 25 was a thing. Those things aren't going away come 12/12 so you can quite reasonably expect conditions to still be viable.

 

I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad", I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > Yeah i remember.....

> >

> > And they were bad for none of the reason your wrote about.

> > People overwriting existing conditions with their less damaging conditions was a thing, every encounter being capped at 25 was a thing. Those things aren't going away come 12/12 so you can quite reasonably expect conditions to still be viable.

>

> I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad", I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again.

Not really.

 

They'll be stronger over time. Which is what they are designed to be.

This isn't changing and what you're proposing is going to happen is literally because of a fear of change.

 

[Arzurag.7506]

Conditions should be pure DoT´s like in any other game, overall lacking damage but providing consistency in damage

[Conncept.7638]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > Yeah i remember.....

> > >

> > > And they were bad for none of the reason your wrote about.

> > > People overwriting existing conditions with their less damaging conditions was a thing, every encounter being capped at 25 was a thing. Those things aren't going away come 12/12 so you can quite reasonably expect conditions to still be viable.

> >

> > I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad", I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again.

> Not really.

>

> They'll be stronger over time. Which is what they are designed to be.

> This isn't changing and what you're proposing is going to happen is literally because of a fear of change.

>

 

What on earth are you talking about? And what nonsense are you accusing me of? Did you even read or understand my post? Like, seriously, what, I don't even...?

 

I know damage over time is stronger over time, hence being called "damage over time", I never said otherwise, in fact my post doesn't even address the state of balance of condition damage vs power or virtually anything else you are going on about.

 

My post addresses that when conditions deal less damage immediately, that applying them to mobs other people are attacking in an open world PvE setting, will result in the mobs dying to those other people, before your conditions have dealt sufficient damage for you to get credit for killing the mob, resulting in you receiving no XP or loot drops from the mob and possibly not even event credit. And with ANet making conditions deal less damage immediately come Tuesday, this may become more of an issue than it has been since conditions became PvE viable.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I'm in wait-and-see mode.

 

The one example given was, iirc, changing a skill that added 3 stacks at 5 seconds each to adding 2 stacks at 8 seconds each. On the face of it, that looks like a 33% nerf to front-loaded condition damage, while condition damage across the entire duration of the stacks will be about the same. Assuming that's the bulk of the adjustment, I can live with it.

 

I remember the bad old days before the June 2015 condition revamp. Then, it was possible to play a condi build actively and use one's rotation well throughout a lengthy group event, get very few drops and end up with a bronze medal for the event. Meanwhile, in those same events, it was possible to play bunker power, doing -- if lucky -- half of the damage done by the Berserker-wearer, and still get about the same drops (and the gold medal, not that medals matter to anyone).

 

So, where would it matter? On bosses which are hopefully lasting longer than 20 seconds, there will be little to no impact. On mobs lasting a few seconds, one should still qualify for drops/credit if a bunker/power build does (which, last time I looked, it still does). If the mob(s) are lasting a second or less, 2 stacks or 3 will not matter in the slightest.

 

Now, maybe it will turn out to be deserving of the doom/gloom in the OP. It doesn't sound like it will, but ANet has surprised me before. Until that happens, though, the alarmist attitude is premature.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > Yeah i remember.....

> > > >

> > > > And they were bad for none of the reason your wrote about.

> > > > People overwriting existing conditions with their less damaging conditions was a thing, every encounter being capped at 25 was a thing. Those things aren't going away come 12/12 so you can quite reasonably expect conditions to still be viable.

> > >

> > > I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad", I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again.

> > Not really.

> >

> > They'll be stronger over time. Which is what they are designed to be.

> > This isn't changing and what you're proposing is going to happen is literally because of a fear of change.

> >

>

> What on earth are you talking about? And what nonsense are you accusing me of? Did you even read or understand my post? Like, seriously, what, I don't even...?

>

> I know damage over time is stronger over time, hence being called "damage over time", I never said otherwise, in fact my post doesn't even address the state of balance of condition damage vs power or virtually anything else you are going on about.

>

> My post addresses that when conditions deal less damage immediately, that applying them to mobs other people are attacking in an open world PvE setting, will result in the mobs dying to those other people, before your conditions have dealt sufficient damage for you to get credit for killing the mob, resulting in you receiving no XP or loot drops from the mob and possibly not even event credit. And with ANet making conditions deal less damage immediately come Tuesday, this may become more of an issue than it has been since conditions became PvE viable.

 

You're making a large jump by asking the quesiton

 

Does Anet remember how bad they were, with the even larger jump assuming that come 12/12 conditions are going to be largely useless.

That's not going to happen no matter how much you try and hide it.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > Yeah i remember.....

> > > > >

> > > > > And they were bad for none of the reason your wrote about.

> > > > > People overwriting existing conditions with their less damaging conditions was a thing, every encounter being capped at 25 was a thing. Those things aren't going away come 12/12 so you can quite reasonably expect conditions to still be viable.

> > > >

> > > > I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad", I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again.

> > > Not really.

> > >

> > > They'll be stronger over time. Which is what they are designed to be.

> > > This isn't changing and what you're proposing is going to happen is literally because of a fear of change.

> > >

> >

> > What on earth are you talking about? And what nonsense are you accusing me of? Did you even read or understand my post? Like, seriously, what, I don't even...?

> >

> > I know damage over time is stronger over time, hence being called "damage over time", I never said otherwise, in fact my post doesn't even address the state of balance of condition damage vs power or virtually anything else you are going on about.

> >

> > My post addresses that when conditions deal less damage immediately, that applying them to mobs other people are attacking in an open world PvE setting, will result in the mobs dying to those other people, before your conditions have dealt sufficient damage for you to get credit for killing the mob, resulting in you receiving no XP or loot drops from the mob and possibly not even event credit. And with ANet making conditions deal less damage immediately come Tuesday, this may become more of an issue than it has been since conditions became PvE viable.

>

> You're making a large jump by asking the quesiton

>

> Does Anet remember how bad they were, with the even larger jump assuming that come 12/12 conditions are going to be largely useless.

> That's not going to happen no matter how much you try and hide it.

 

I... did not say anywhere that any condition was going to be useless. I don't know what problem you have with me but since nothing you say makes any sense whatsoever I'm just going to ignore you if that's okay.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > Yeah i remember.....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And they were bad for none of the reason your wrote about.

> > > > > > People overwriting existing conditions with their less damaging conditions was a thing, every encounter being capped at 25 was a thing. Those things aren't going away come 12/12 so you can quite reasonably expect conditions to still be viable.

> > > > >

> > > > > I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad", I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again.

> > > > Not really.

> > > >

> > > > They'll be stronger over time. Which is what they are designed to be.

> > > > This isn't changing and what you're proposing is going to happen is literally because of a fear of change.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What on earth are you talking about? And what nonsense are you accusing me of? Did you even read or understand my post? Like, seriously, what, I don't even...?

> > >

> > > I know damage over time is stronger over time, hence being called "damage over time", I never said otherwise, in fact my post doesn't even address the state of balance of condition damage vs power or virtually anything else you are going on about.

> > >

> > > My post addresses that when conditions deal less damage immediately, that applying them to mobs other people are attacking in an open world PvE setting, will result in the mobs dying to those other people, before your conditions have dealt sufficient damage for you to get credit for killing the mob, resulting in you receiving no XP or loot drops from the mob and possibly not even event credit. And with ANet making conditions deal less damage immediately come Tuesday, this may become more of an issue than it has been since conditions became PvE viable.

> >

> > You're making a large jump by asking the quesiton

> >

> > Does Anet remember how bad they were, with the even larger jump assuming that come 12/12 conditions are going to be largely useless.

> > That's not going to happen no matter how much you try and hide it.

>

> I... did not say anywhere that any condition was going to be useless. I don't know what's wrong with you but since nothing you say makes any sense whatsoever I'm just going to ignore you if that's okay.

 

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad",**I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again**.

 

I'm saying you're jumping the shark here.

The reasons why conditions were bad had nothing to do with the claim you're making and wont be the issue again.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

Maybe the solution would be to make conditions count as MORE than just DPS when it comes to mob tagging. Like if Player A hits a mob for 50 power damage, and Player B hits a mob with a DoT that would do 50 damage over 10 seconds, but he dies in three, then it would register the full damage when the hit first lands (for the purposes of kill credit).

[Shiyo.3578]

Conditions have not been bad since HOT.

[Anchoku.8142]

Conditions (in PvE) apply guaranteed dps at the risk of having them cleared, which Arenanet does not let happen. They count upon stack limits.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Conditions have not been bad since HOT.

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Conditions (in PvE) apply guaranteed dps at the risk of having them cleared, which Arenanet does not let happen. They count upon stack limits.

 

Guys read the OP, I am 110% for making conditions less bursty and I understand ANets decision to do so.

 

This is not about conditions damage dealing ability in general or as compared to power.

 

This is about their ability to give you kill credit for "trash mobs" that die to power damage too quickly for your conditions to tick.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

Funny when I tried running condi engi back in the day I had no trouble taging mobs.

Maybe it was because most skill that inflict conditions actually apply direct damage at the same time?

Or maybe I was just that good....

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > Conditions have not been bad since HOT.

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Conditions (in PvE) apply guaranteed dps at the risk of having them cleared, which Arenanet does not let happen. They count upon stack limits.

>

> Guys read the OP, I am 110% for making conditions less bursty and I understand ANets decision to do so.

>

> This is not about conditions damage dealing ability in general or as compared to power.

>

> This is about their ability to give you kill credit for "trash mobs" that die to power damage too quickly for your conditions to tick.

 

Look, we get it.

 

But have you played the game recently ? You can get credit for trashmobs running Nomads gear. Im sure conditions will be no issue.

 

[Anchoku.8142]

Credit and loot are separate. A good burst of power or condi improves odds of bags. Being credited for more damage helps with loot allocation.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Virtually every condi build has power and precision stats. Assuming that OP's fears are in fact valid. It won't matter unless you're wearing dire or rabid.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> Funny when I tried running condi engi back in the day I had no trouble taging mobs.

> Maybe it was because most skill that inflict conditions actually apply direct damage at the same time?

> Or maybe I was just that good....

 

You're close, but not for the reason you think. Condition skills in core have less cleave and AOE associated with them; and of the AOE skills few any kind of significant uptime. This combination of poor cleave options, and long cool downs on AOE skills is what made Condi builds terrible for tagging large groups. Even in the case of outliers, its only by the graces of a generally broken trait that they managed to sometimes get around the problem.

Now compare that to power builds, which have cleave on nearly all AA skills, and many 2h weapons having either a Large cleave, a field, or a multi-hit attack on moderately low cool down.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Whatever Anet does on Tuesday all of you are going to copy-paste builds from your favourite sites without thinking much about it, no matter what "meta" is going to be, so why all the complains? You do this with every patch anyway.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

 

Without build templates anet can make game even more annoying this way.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

>

> Without build templates anet can make game even more annoying this way.

 

Yes it certainly adds more work.