Apolo.5942 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Mesmer and Thief are intrinsically toxic due to class design. Scourge might be OP, but nobody complains that it is "unfair". Thief and Mesmer have that "cant touch it" aspect to them, that make them toxic game play wise. Magic the gathering, a much larger and with much longer 25 years of history under its belt went through something similar. They had game mechanics such as counter spell (something that voided the opponents play) and land destruction (something that destroyed the opponents resources thus rendering them unable to play). Over the years they reached the conclusion that having a player straight out deny its opponent opponent play generated a much more toxic game play than having the same player kill what the other players did in with a subsequent play in response to the new situation. Much the same way Hearthstone Works today, there are no reaction plays, but subsequent plays. Mesmer and Thief are on the toxic side of the spectrum leaving players feeling they could do nothing about the engagement they just lost. Through invisibility, cloning, and pseudo perma evasion, they preemptively void their opponents plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > Mesmer and Thief are intrinsically toxic due to class design. > > Scourge might be OP, but nobody complains that it is "unfair". Thief and Mesmer have that "cant touch it" aspect to them, that make them toxic game play wise. > > Magic the gathering, a much larger and with much longer 25 years of history under its belt went through something similar. > > They had game mechanics such as counter spell (something that voided the opponents play) and land destruction (something that destroyed the opponents resources thus rendering them unable to play). > > Over the years they reached the conclusion that having a player straight out deny its opponent opponent play generated a much more toxic game play than having the same player kill what the other players did in with a subsequent play in response to the new situation. Much the same way Hearthstone Works today, there are no reaction plays, but subsequent plays. > > Mesmer and Thief are on the toxic side of the spectrum leaving players feeling they could do nothing about the engagement they just lost. Through invisibility, cloning, and pseudo perma evasion, they preemptively void their opponents plays. Pretty sure these forums are littered with the complaints that scourge is "unfair"................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > Mesmer and Thief are intrinsically toxic due to class design. > > > > Scourge might be OP, but nobody complains that it is "unfair". Thief and Mesmer have that "cant touch it" aspect to them, that make them toxic game play wise. > > > > Magic the gathering, a much larger and with much longer 25 years of history under its belt went through something similar. > > > > They had game mechanics such as counter spell (something that voided the opponents play) and land destruction (something that destroyed the opponents resources thus rendering them unable to play). > > > > Over the years they reached the conclusion that having a player straight out deny its opponent opponent play generated a much more toxic game play than having the same player kill what the other players did in with a subsequent play in response to the new situation. Much the same way Hearthstone Works today, there are no reaction plays, but subsequent plays. > > > > Mesmer and Thief are on the toxic side of the spectrum leaving players feeling they could do nothing about the engagement they just lost. Through invisibility, cloning, and pseudo perma evasion, they preemptively void their opponents plays. > > Pretty sure these forums are littered with the complaints that scourge is "unfair"................ Nope, they specifically state op. The problem with scourge is its damage output, not its mechanics, balancing their damage makes them a none issue, for thief and mesmer to not be toxic you have to change their mechanics and class design, that is what makes them "unfair" and toxic. Its the difference between changing the numbers and changing how they play that is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > Mesmer and Thief are intrinsically toxic due to class design. > > > > > > Scourge might be OP, but nobody complains that it is "unfair". Thief and Mesmer have that "cant touch it" aspect to them, that make them toxic game play wise. > > > > > > Magic the gathering, a much larger and with much longer 25 years of history under its belt went through something similar. > > > > > > They had game mechanics such as counter spell (something that voided the opponents play) and land destruction (something that destroyed the opponents resources thus rendering them unable to play). > > > > > > Over the years they reached the conclusion that having a player straight out deny its opponent opponent play generated a much more toxic game play than having the same player kill what the other players did in with a subsequent play in response to the new situation. Much the same way Hearthstone Works today, there are no reaction plays, but subsequent plays. > > > > > > Mesmer and Thief are on the toxic side of the spectrum leaving players feeling they could do nothing about the engagement they just lost. Through invisibility, cloning, and pseudo perma evasion, they preemptively void their opponents plays. > > > > Pretty sure these forums are littered with the complaints that scourge is "unfair"................ > > Nope, they specifically state op. The problem with scourge is its damage output, not its mechanics, balancing their damage makes them a none issue, for thief and mesmer to not be toxic you have to change their mechanics and class design, that is what makes them "unfair" and toxic. > > Its the difference between changing the numbers and changing how they play that is the problem. Disagree, instant cast shade skills fall under the unfair category. Extremely strong and can't do anything to avoid them but stay out of range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"ArthurDent.9538" said: > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > Mesmer and Thief are intrinsically toxic due to class design. > > > > > > > > Scourge might be OP, but nobody complains that it is "unfair". Thief and Mesmer have that "cant touch it" aspect to them, that make them toxic game play wise. > > > > > > > > Magic the gathering, a much larger and with much longer 25 years of history under its belt went through something similar. > > > > > > > > They had game mechanics such as counter spell (something that voided the opponents play) and land destruction (something that destroyed the opponents resources thus rendering them unable to play). > > > > > > > > Over the years they reached the conclusion that having a player straight out deny its opponent opponent play generated a much more toxic game play than having the same player kill what the other players did in with a subsequent play in response to the new situation. Much the same way Hearthstone Works today, there are no reaction plays, but subsequent plays. > > > > > > > > Mesmer and Thief are on the toxic side of the spectrum leaving players feeling they could do nothing about the engagement they just lost. Through invisibility, cloning, and pseudo perma evasion, they preemptively void their opponents plays. > > > > > > Pretty sure these forums are littered with the complaints that scourge is "unfair"................ > > > > Nope, they specifically state op. The problem with scourge is its damage output, not its mechanics, balancing their damage makes them a none issue, for thief and mesmer to not be toxic you have to change their mechanics and class design, that is what makes them "unfair" and toxic. > > > > Its the difference between changing the numbers and changing how they play that is the problem. > > Disagree, instant cast shade skills fall under the unfair category. Extremely strong and can't do anything to avoid them but stay out of range. No it does not, you could put a say15 second cd on the shades condition application, and you have changed nothing about how the class plays(its mechanics) and made a world of difference balance wise. You can not say the same for thief and mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > Mesmer and Thief are intrinsically toxic due to class design. > > > > > > Scourge might be OP, but nobody complains that it is "unfair". Thief and Mesmer have that "cant touch it" aspect to them, that make them toxic game play wise. > > > > > > Magic the gathering, a much larger and with much longer 25 years of history under its belt went through something similar. > > > > > > They had game mechanics such as counter spell (something that voided the opponents play) and land destruction (something that destroyed the opponents resources thus rendering them unable to play). > > > > > > Over the years they reached the conclusion that having a player straight out deny its opponent opponent play generated a much more toxic game play than having the same player kill what the other players did in with a subsequent play in response to the new situation. Much the same way Hearthstone Works today, there are no reaction plays, but subsequent plays. > > > > > > Mesmer and Thief are on the toxic side of the spectrum leaving players feeling they could do nothing about the engagement they just lost. Through invisibility, cloning, and pseudo perma evasion, they preemptively void their opponents plays. > > > > Pretty sure these forums are littered with the complaints that scourge is "unfair"................ > > Nope, they specifically state op. The problem with scourge is its damage output, not its mechanics, balancing their damage makes them a none issue, for thief and mesmer to not be toxic you have to change their mechanics and class design, that is what makes them "unfair" and toxic. > > Its the difference between changing the numbers and changing how they play that is the problem. Instant casting shades and just walking next to is the definition of not fair play. There is zero elements to a thief that is not fair play and is only a l2p issue. Mirage is broken and currently not fair as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larenc.1269 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 I fought a few marage's and they were inline with the old shatter mesmer build. Honestly the only thing I can say is their annoying they take forever to hunt down and kill. Their dps is modest at best I have never seen them doing over 5k dmg or the such, and with that said only people I can think to have problems against mesmer are tho's that go pure dps [major portion of the community] Even with that mesmers are at a greater loss now days due to runes that give decreased condition duration/ resistance. For example. My necro is a condition "eater" more conditions applied the more it heals coupled with the fact the shorten condition duration/damage. However that isn't the end of the chain reaction. Elite skill Flesh golem and "Rise" Spawn up to 10 minions in total. Death trait gives a 2% condition dmg reduction up to 26%[20% in my case] There is another trait that can have the minions take conditions from you aswell I only ever use it if i plan to be fighting multiple scourges though. I also use a crit tank build with means I have high toughness aprox 2900 with a 105% crit rate, However my offense is only around 1800 so it takes forever to kill them or well anyone. Thus the marage cant do enough dps to kill my necro, but my necro has to time its pulls and drags just right to do enough damage to offset the healing the mesmer will do prior to the kb skill of the flesh golem. You see its all how everything is lined up with the traits and gear available. All and I mean all classes have builds to counter another class seamlessly however the vast majority of the player base is lacking in the department of creativity and functionality. "Meta Is best, the rest are just a waste". They forget though meta's are born from existing builds published by youtube players that aren't that great at what they do. Final words of advice: "Trial and error" “It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.” ― Franklin D. Roosevelt, Looking Forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"Larenc.1269" said: > I fought a few marage's and they were inline with the old shatter mesmer build. Honestly the only thing I can say is their annoying they take forever to hunt down and kill. Their dps is modest at best I have never seen them doing over 5k dmg or the such, and with that said only people I can think to have problems against mesmer are tho's that go pure dps [major portion of the community] > > Even with that mesmers are at a greater loss now days due to runes that give decreased condition duration/ resistance. > > For example. My necro is a condition "eater" more conditions applied the more it heals coupled with the fact the shorten condition duration/damage. However that isn't the end of the chain reaction. Elite skill Flesh golem and "Rise" Spawn up to 10 minions in total. Death trait gives a 2% condition dmg reduction up to 26%[20% in my case] There is another trait that can have the minions take conditions from you aswell I only ever use it if i plan to be fighting multiple scourges though. I also use a crit tank build with means I have high toughness aprox 2900 with a 105% crit rate, However my offense is only around 1800 so it takes forever to kill them or well anyone. Thus the marage cant do enough dps to kill my necro, but my necro has to time its pulls and drags just right to do enough damage to offset the healing the mesmer will do prior to the kb skill of the flesh golem. > > You see its all how everything is lined up with the traits and gear available. All and I mean all classes have builds to counter another class seamlessly however the vast majority of the player base is lacking in the department of creativity and functionality. "Meta Is best, the rest are just a waste". They forget though meta's are born from existing builds published by youtube players that aren't that great at what they do. > > Final words of advice: "Trial and error" > > “It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.” > ― Franklin D. Roosevelt, Looking Forward Dude lmao you play minionmancer and you think it's fine? I'll duel you with my day 1 mirage and destroy you lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larenc.1269 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"Razor.6392" said: > > @"Larenc.1269" said: > > I fought a few marage's and they were inline with the old shatter mesmer build. Honestly the only thing I can say is their annoying they take forever to hunt down and kill. Their dps is modest at best I have never seen them doing over 5k dmg or the such, and with that said only people I can think to have problems against mesmer are tho's that go pure dps [major portion of the community] > > > > Even with that mesmers are at a greater loss now days due to runes that give decreased condition duration/ resistance. > > > > For example. My necro is a condition "eater" more conditions applied the more it heals coupled with the fact the shorten condition duration/damage. However that isn't the end of the chain reaction. Elite skill Flesh golem and "Rise" Spawn up to 10 minions in total. Death trait gives a 2% condition dmg reduction up to 26%[20% in my case] There is another trait that can have the minions take conditions from you aswell I only ever use it if i plan to be fighting multiple scourges though. I also use a crit tank build with means I have high toughness aprox 2900 with a 105% crit rate, However my offense is only around 1800 so it takes forever to kill them or well anyone. Thus the marage cant do enough dps to kill my necro, but my necro has to time its pulls and drags just right to do enough damage to offset the healing the mesmer will do prior to the kb skill of the flesh golem. > > > > You see its all how everything is lined up with the traits and gear available. All and I mean all classes have builds to counter another class seamlessly however the vast majority of the player base is lacking in the department of creativity and functionality. "Meta Is best, the rest are just a waste". They forget though meta's are born from existing builds published by youtube players that aren't that great at what they do. > > > > Final words of advice: "Trial and error" > > > > “It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.” > > ― Franklin D. Roosevelt, Looking Forward > > Dude lmao you play minionmancer and you think it's fine? I'll duel you with my day 1 mirage and destroy you lol. Who said minionmancer? More like spectral reaper. 2 shout skills 2 spectral skills and 1 minion skill doesn't make a minionmancer lol Though " rise" shout does benefit from the trait line of death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Its not OP at all. Everything works as intended. Everything is fine. All good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Back from holidays. Hope the thread had a good New Year. > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > You are thinking of some other game. Strong DoT has been present in the Guild Wars franchise since the beginning. Conditions have and always will be a source of damage, especially given the removal of hexes. > > Conditions have NOT always been a strong source of damage in GW2 given how they had to be powercreeped for 2 YEARS until they were finally made utterly broken with a single patch. Even during those first two years, conditions saw no meta usage within PvE and were only viable on a couple of classes in PvP (mainly only by virtue that condi cleanses were even harder to come by then than they are now). > > As for GW1, health degen was capped at 10 pips. ...[snip] I said strong DoT, not strong degen. "Mild HP pressure and conditional triggers for certain skills" were powerful over time when stacked together. Conditions were "powercreeped" to make up for the damage and utility lost when other mechanics were removed. They are common to every profession for the same lore reasons we all have healing skills. They keep the flavor of https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hexway and https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Trapper while balancing new stats. There has and always will be DoT spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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