Interested in Fights? Prove it Pt1

[Whiteout.1975]

Hello Everyone,

So what is this topic about? It's about the interest you have as a WvW player in regards to fights in WvW. This topic will also discuss some surroundings that can effect those interest, positively or negatively, for you the player. Some things we **Will Not Talk About** is **Class Balance** and **Lag**. Why? Simply because I feel there has already been enough post on those topics and to bring them here would easily derail the main discussion. Though you can mention them if helps you finish a sentence. Our focus just lies elsewhere.

 

Now to start, I'll give you a few questions to answer. Which will include examples of how I would answer each one. Also some words are **Bold** in examples to help highlight main points.

 

- **Question1:** **What do you like to do in WvW and Why?**

- Example: I like **roaming** because of two reasons mainly. Firstly, I personally find there to be **less lag**. Secondly, **I enjoy** working in a smaller group to take on bigger sized groups in general. I find when **defeating a bigger groups**. I feel a **greater sense of success**, furthering my enjoyment.

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Pretty easy so far. Now lets go a bit Further...

 

- **Question 2:** **Why do you Fight in WvW?**

Do you fight because you like to fight other players? Do you fight for the sake of PPT? Do you like to fight around in a blob? Find towers cozy/safe and wanna keep feeling that way? etc.

What is/are your **core** reason(s) for fighting? Here are my reasons...

- Example: **I like to fight for the sake of fighting**. **I** also like/**enjoy to beat** certain **players at their own game**, if you will, by also using what may be considered "cheese". **Towers**, etc. **I get very little enjoyment out of** unless a fight peaks my interest involving such a place. **I'll** also **feel** the **need to sometimes** attempt to **take** a **tower if** I feel it can be used as **valuable** checkpoint in a way.

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Let's talk a bit about **NPC's** shall we?... Still in regards to fighting of course.

 

- **Question 3:** **What do and/or don't you like about NPC's in WvW?** (This can include any form of Npc, not just guards)

- Example 1: I like **NPC's** for **Life Force** on **Necro** if not near a tower wall/gate. **Helps** me **sometimes** prepare for a fight ahead. Though I often **prefer ambient creatures** instead though for this. They are quicker kills obviously.

- Example 2: I don't like **NPC's** because they **often help** when **not needed** and don't really when they are. Let me explain. In a fight at which your server is already **outnumbered** or at least has the buff on for it. Your chance's of winning that **fight** with **NPC's against you** **lowers** the **odds further**. Therefore, I feel it **would be better If** the **outmanned buff** **improved** the **abilities** (knockdowns, stuns etc.) **OR stats** for **certain NPC's**. **OR have** some of those **abilities granted to** them **(Guards, Vet's, etc.)** vs the bigger size server at the time. I could go further with this, but I feel this is good enough.

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Next up is the **Frequency of Fighting**... In other words, what things do you notice cause a fight to take place? Or prolong a fight from taking place? This is of course **not referring to** the **player** themselves. Being that of their own **personal desires** on whether or not to engage in a fight.

 

- **Question4:** **So what is your take on the rates at which fights happen?** **What factors do you feel effect that rate?**

- Example 1: As a roamer mostly in **small group roaming**. I feel that **fighting** is **rarely done** enough **unless** there is an **objective as the cause.** This leads me to believe that **objectives** currently **outweigh** the **want to fight** in WvW. This also makes me wonder if perhaps there is **too much incentive** to go for these **objectives** (Camps, Towers, etc.) vs Fighting actual players. Aside from that, **this** more so **forces me** and often others, **to attempt to take** said x,y or z **objective**. Simply because I know I'm **more likely** to get **a response/fight** that way.

 

- **Question 5:** **What would you do to fix said problem?** (If unsure or can't answer just skip)

- Example 1: To fix this, an idea would be to **increase rewards or the rate of rewards** (maybe reward track) gained from simply **engaging players outside** the area of an **objective** such as camps and towers. By doing this I feel there would be **more reason to fight** each other vs just over an objective. PPT is a strong enough reason for most on its own it would seem.

- Example 2: Another Idea is to **assume** that **PPT** for certain objectives is **too high**. Since the reasons to **PPT** seems much **more valued than** other reasons for **fights** in general. **Tower's and Keep's etc.** hold more weight than just PPT as most of us know. They are **also taken for** their **strategic value**. **They provide** a **safe point** and **supply** for starters; **loot** when taken, **merchants**, **upgrades** (Waypoints etc.). Most of which get better the longer you hold it. So there are still **plenty of incentives** to want to take one of these structures **besides PPT.** Check how PPT is earned under the War Score section of this link [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World"). As you can see. **Points are increased** to such a point for lets say a Keep, that after tier 1, it continues to go up by +4 PPT and **every tier after.** When the **objective** already **holds enough strategic value as is**. In order for the rate at which fights happen to have a better chance at increasing. Then points for objectives should not take as much priority. In other words, **fighting should carry nearly as much incentives as objectives**.

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To end things here. The purpose of these questions is to highlight some of the Interest of WvW players as a whole. This will hopefully draw together some common or comparable fighting Interest of WvW players. Also to bring to light some things in WvW that can conflict with a players Interest. The **Interest** of players as a whole **is very important** or at least it should be. Please take note that these questions relate to your experience as a WvW player. There is no real right or wrong answer to these so long as it relates of course . Though if you are to agree with someone; I encourage you to credit them where and how you see fit. Thanks in advance to those who choose to participate.

 

~ _Gammapulse_

[Sovereign.1093]

only issue for me.

 

uneven numbers. my team can fight 2x our numbers but 3x? hehe. lets hide behind 4 superior acs and 3 rotating shield gens.

 

they have block burn guards, shout necros, meteor eles. run to the hills @.@

 

solution

 

pvp que system to ensure equal numbers. done everytime after the skirmish is done. suggest 2 to 4 hour skirmish. mega server. atleast 25 players to 70. auto adjust to ensure 3 sides can fit in a map.

 

if ppl log off, the map stays for the remainder of.the q and go in out of it.

 

oOo

 

I like fights, i like ppt, i like sieges. I just find uneveness the problem.

 

 

[Whiteout.1975]

Appreciate the feedback **Sovereign**.

 

Interesting, so you don't like uneven fights. That's a fair point. I can't say I'm quite one way or the other when it comes to that. I like the challenge overall, but yea I agree with the whole 3x or 4x numbers. That can get a bit crazy. Also with NPC's against you at times being mainly their CC's. I find that doesn't make it any better.

 

The skirmish idea sounds like a decent possibility. So I take it you would basically have a bunch of mini skirmishes within the main weekly skirmish.

I wonder if they were to do that, how likely would it be for objectives to reach T3 in lets say the 2-4hrs of a skirmish? If so, I wonder how much use they would see as a T3 objective within that time? I'm not sure, but I figure that would be important to look at as well.

[ThomasC.1056]

Hello,

 

Thanks for the well thought thread. Here're my two cents.

 

> @"Whiteout.1975" said:

> - **Question1:** **What do you like to do in WvW and Why?**

> - Example: I like **roaming** because of two reasons mainly. Firstly, I personally find there to be **less lag**. Secondly, **I enjoy** working in a smaller group to take on bigger sized groups in general. I find when **defeating a bigger groups**. I feel a **greater sense of success**, furthering my enjoyment.

I like the **small scale** and **strategic** part of WvW. What's called roaming, scouting and PPT. Things like taking an objective, scouting it, managing supply camps, sentries, warning about enemy movements etc. I like too feel involved in what I do, and this is what provides me with the better feeling of fulfillement. K-training doesn't appeal to me because I feel like it's too laggy, too messy, and overall, it doesn't feel appealing to me to just follow the blob and smash everything without caring too much about the aftercome of all the fights.

 

> @"Whiteout.1975" said:

> - **Question 2:** **Why do you Fight in WvW?**

Mostly because I need to ! I often had good fights, but I won't be especially running the country to find a brawl.

 

> @"Whiteout.1975" said:

> - **Question 3:** **What do and/or don't you like about NPC's in WvW?** (This can include any form of Npc, not just guards)

First of all : I understand they're a necessary thing because population (in general) doesn't allow for a 24/7 coverage of each and every objective. Now, for some specifics :

* **Mechanics-wise :** they're mostly poor. DBL NPC's are a good step forward, with overall more variety and more challenge. It's only a shame that "challenge" = massive CC-stunfest for some of them.

* **Utility-wise :** it depends. ABL ones are solo-able whatever happens, while DBL tower and keep lords are more troublesome. In any case, a blob can steamroll any of them.

* **My regret :** there may be not enough NPCs management. If we take for granted that NPC's are here to guard things while players are away, then there could be more ways than currently to upgrade them, tweak the numbers, hire more of them etc. In the same fashion, I remember a conversation about DBL towers suggesting that they could act as NPC's barracks, each tower its kind, that could be sent as patrols, or reinforcements in keeps or camps. That may be too much for the defending side, but it's a thing that could enrich the game mode. Even if it's a bit far from the *fight* topic.

 

> @"Whiteout.1975" said:

> - **Question4:** **So what is your take on the rates at which fights happen?** **What factors do you feel effect that rate?**

I think players mostly fight around objectives : either to attack/defend it, or to reach it (or their crew). In a sharper factor, the vicinity of enemy spawn raises the probability to get involved in a fight. I don't think players fighting for "just fights" are that numerous, and I personnaly think it's fine that way. I also don't think that the whole RvR concept is appropriate for "just fights", though I also acknowledge that GW2 should support freefights in better way.

 

> @"Whiteout.1975" said:

> - **Question 5:** **What would you do to fix said problem?** (If unsure or can't answer just skip)

I don't think there's really much of an issue in all this...

[DeceiverX.8361]

I originally picked WvW because:

 

- In the years surrounding launch, WvW had more diversity and better balance than sPvP did. Pretty much anything worked somewhere, which was great to see.

- I mained a thief up until HoT. It was useless or at best a +1 bot for like three years in sPvP, while it WvW it had the stats to actually kill people.

- Fighting outnumbered was a fun challenge, especially given the diversity of one's options and ones' enemies' options. You never knew what you were going to fight, and a lot of what made combat interesting was needing to adapt.

- The siege idea is better than just cap-and-hold without obstacles. It gave some response time to defenders (especially with old WP's) which made things quite intense.

- The meta in sPvP was too stale because it just became a matter of mobility and tanking.

 

I like small and large-scale battles, but WvW is too blobby at the moment. That whole "fighting outnumbered" thing is pretty much a myth right now unless your opponents are just downright bad. Most people are carried by their builds or whatever FoTM is out and abused. The disparities have only gotten bigger, and the diversity minimized. The whole notion is now just a lot less fun, because fighting outnumbered, even when you're really skilled and organized, usually just means death, and since most of the fighting-heavy crews have left the game, there's not exactly a big demand, either. Fights aren't happening because of increased punishment on a failed siege (PPK), slower objective taking/auto-upgrades (which on its own is fine), removal of WP's during keep contesting (an issue), the huge gold costs for guild buffs (an issue), the lag that comes from the procs/boons/conditions (an issue), and most notably, the simple fact that the meta is not very engaging nor fun.

 

What I'd fix? If I had the power? Rebalance and re-design professions trumps everything. Every single criticism of why I don't log in anymore pretty much comes down to profession design and balance. Otherwise, remove PPK from a side which holds a given objective. This enables attackers to make all-in pushes without being scared of dying, and punishes excessive turtling without ever leaving a keep, since the other servers could attack each other and possibly generate equal or more points.

 

It honestly all comes back to profession balance, though. People, just like now, won't want to fight if the fights aren't worth it.

 

[Whiteout.1975]

Great Feedback **ThomasC** :)

Glad to hear that we share a bit of common interest as at least roamers.

 

While I can understand and agree with most of what you said. I would like to highlight 2 points that really stand out to me. That is for **NPC's.**

> * **Mechanics-wise :** they're mostly poor. DBL NPC's are a good step forward, with overall more variety and more challenge. It's only a shame that "challenge" = massive CC-stunfest for some of them.

 

> * **My regret :** there may be not enough NPCs management. If we take for granted that NPC's are here to guard things while players are away, then there could be more ways than currently to upgrade them, tweak the numbers, hire more of them etc.

 

I feel these two comments are especially ones that I can strongly agree with.

 

[Ubi.4136]

Keep guards in GW2, slowly patrol around the keep (I think it takes them 30 minutes to do a lap) and really don't hit hard, even at T3.

I miss the keep guards from DAoC. They literally sprinted around the structure, and there were 20+ of them. All of them could easily wipe a handful of players they hit so hard. AI could have been better (just like in GW2 - you know, drop a build site and they cease to recognize attackers), but it was something.

[Whiteout.1975]

I can definitely relate **DecieverX** and feel there is a lot of truth behind pretty much everything you said. I've expreienced and seen most of that myself as well.

 

Though since everything comes down to balance for you and reasonably so... Here is some food for thought for everyone...

 

If I were to play say some DPS Thief and I out DPS say a Tank Gaurdian of some sort. To the point of defeat. I wonder how many Guardians in that scenario would call me or think of me as OP vs understand that the fight was never in their favor because of what they chose to play. Just something I would ask myself fighting various professions from time to time. Especially when I would get the lovely hate mail or whispers haha. Good Times.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The thing that a lot of people fail to realize is you can play a guardian extremely tanky and still pack a massive punch. I believe my guildmembers are running builds right now playing core guard/fb with 4k armor and 20k hp hitting for 15k ZD's. People forget that sustained damage means nothing in PvP environments; it's all about timing burst at the right time when it comes to playing offensive builds.

 

Most of WvW's premier small-scale builds have always favored defensive stats; in most cases, the more durable you go, the more mathematically advantaged you are to win a given fight. Playing DPS is usually just more fun in the eyes of most people, and it being more combo-based shuts down players who don't know how to react to the incoming bomb.

 

This also marks a big distinction between pre-and-post-expansion balance. Before HoT, burst had cooldowns and substantial downtime. Understand that the thief for example saw its AA get outright buffed by 30-60% since then, just because of poor PvE performance. What were once larger windows of weakness under big cooldowns are now... nonexistent. Gameplay pretty much comes down to just rushing your opponent down with the outcomes influenced massively by builds from strength from boons and buffs. A tank guardian prior would stand a much better chance reacting to the big important hits and making trades into its advantaged stats, whereas now, the matter is much more questionable.

 

 

[jacksmith.6028]

Q1 - Love the big RvRvR fights. Everyone on the team moving and fighting together; strategy and position are at a premium...it's not just twitchy fights like PvP

Q2 - fighting other groups is variety, unlike PvE

Q3 - this is WvW not PvE. I want all NPC's removed...they're just a pain and add nothing (nor should they). The focus should be on players, not NPCs.

Q4 - fights now are too few and far between. Players now tend to turtle behind seige or won't fight unless they outnumber you

Q5 - correct it by (1) removing NPCs and making it easier to take structures; you then would have to come out and fight. Structures, camps, etc. should serve as fight catalysts; not impenetrable fortresses where you can hide; (2) re-balance...too much pirate ship. I'd rather face power frontliners because you can maneuver around it. Bring back hammer stun!

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The thing that a lot of people fail to realize is you can play a guardian extremely tanky and still pack a massive punch. I believe my guildmembers are running builds right now playing core guard/fb with 4k armor and 20k hp hitting for 15k ZD's. People forget that sustained damage means nothing in PvP environments; it's all about timing burst at the right time when it comes to playing offensive builds.

>

> Most of WvW's premier small-scale builds have always favored defensive stats; in most cases, the more durable you go, the more mathematically advantaged you are to win a given fight. Playing DPS is usually just more fun in the eyes of most people, and it being more combo-based shuts down players who don't know how to react to the incoming bomb.

>

> This also marks a big distinction between pre-and-post-expansion balance. Before HoT, burst had cooldowns and substantial downtime. Understand that the thief for example saw its AA get outright buffed by 30-60% since then, just because of poor PvE performance. What were once larger windows of weakness under big cooldowns are now... nonexistent. Gameplay pretty much comes down to just rushing your opponent down with the outcomes influenced massively by builds from strength from boons and buffs. A tank guardian prior would stand a much better chance reacting to the big important hits and making trades into its advantaged stats, whereas now, the matter is much more questionable.

>

>

 

I just want to say that your comments rock. And I think I remember now who helped me learn tricks to fight thieves. It was you!

 

I credited someone whose name started with 'D' and I think he is you. Would you have a look at my post below and let me know if there were any parts that are wrong or could be improved on?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/260240/#Comment_260240

[Whiteout.1975]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The thing that a lot of people fail to realize is you can play a guardian extremely tanky and still pack a massive punch. I believe my guildmembers are running builds right now playing core guard/fb with 4k armor and 20k hp hitting for 15k ZD's. People forget that sustained damage means nothing in PvP environments; it's all about timing burst at the right time when it comes to playing offensive builds.

>

> Most of WvW's premier small-scale builds have always favored defensive stats; in most cases, the more durable you go, the more mathematically advantaged you are to win a given fight. Playing DPS is usually just more fun in the eyes of most people, and it being more combo-based shuts down players who don't know how to react to the incoming bomb.

>

> This also marks a big distinction between pre-and-post-expansion balance. Before HoT, burst had cooldowns and substantial downtime. Understand that the thief for example saw its AA get outright buffed by 30-60% since then, just because of poor PvE performance. What were once larger windows of weakness under big cooldowns are now... nonexistent. Gameplay pretty much comes down to just rushing your opponent down with the outcomes influenced massively by builds from strength from boons and buffs. A tank guardian prior would stand a much better chance reacting to the big important hits and making trades into its advantaged stats, whereas now, the matter is much more questionable.

>

>

 

Been a busy day today with Christmas coming and all that. Just wanted to say **awesome** job explaining that.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I'd also like to mention as well that the reason for so many thieves always playing aggressive power builds has more to do with the fact that for the first few years of the game's release, there simply weren't other good options; if you look at coefficients and boon coverage, they have some of the lowest damaging abilities in the game and lowest innate defenses (especially prior to HoT with the introduction of passives like IR and buffs to PR/etc.); they hit as hard as they do because of stacking % damage modifiers and don't die because of increased stealth and dodges, meaning that building defensively was historically counter-productive, as extending a fight on higher-cooldown blinks and generic resources (increasing the number of opportunities a tankier profession has to beat down on the thief) means the thief loses the scaling game. This also acts as the basis for my argument about the old SA line being conceptually OP; there were basically no sacrifices made for a ton of inbuilt sustain and giving them scaling boons and pressure as it extended, while rocking great offensive stats from gear, all the while giving the thief total control of the terms of the fight.

 

It's also why the huge power disparity between sPvP and WvW. sPvP has objectively lower base stats, meaning boons count for more, which indirectly nerfs thieves for not having much access to them, while also reducing efficacy of % modifiers.

 

In fact, this was the basis for why my healing power sustain thief build was absolutely and completely overpowered in sPvP back when; sPvP got balanced for giving the thief the defenses it didn't have in WvW but *not* the offensive power it did have in WvW. This lead to the making of a build that could out-heal multiple berserker builds beating on it and was slightly innately tankier than bunker ele. Anyone who dueled this thing a few years ago knows the frustration this thing meant. Hilariously fun, but a testament to why split balance isn't necessarily the best idea, and why creating "outplay" opportunities in the design space of professions is absolutely essential.