How to fix underwater combat

[Ayakaru.6583]

Underwater combat is one of the greatest things when pulled off well, but simultaneously a hell when not.These my suggestions that might help restore underwater combat and adventuring.§Firstly, remove all utility skills underwater, and create a set of underwater utility skills that truly reflect how each class would behave underwater.Mesmers use refraction of light, elementalists boil water, freeze it. Necromancers create clouds of tiki-piranhas, and undead sharks, as well as releasing toxic clouds that pollute the waters.§Secondly, as an addon to the first, give the revenant a legend (in core, not elite) thats meant for underwater. Shiro en Stoneking just feel hamfisted into underwater content with zero synergy. Im personally thinking of:

The Naga Ssuns, Blessed of Dwayna,

but you can create a character as well.§Thirdly, in traits. Remove the UW weapon traits from the existing traitlines, and create 2-3 traitlines for underwater content in a fourth traitline slot (below the specialization slot). One that focusess on each of the one weapons, spears, spearguns and tridents. You can only choose one at a time, and the base three traitlines also still works. For balancing issues I’d recommend a deviate version of the base traits. Example: “bleeding applied lasts 15% longer” on land, and “bleeding applied last 8% longer” underwater.§With the top three inserts it should be possible to propely balance UW combat content without interference of land content.Now we can get to actual content. In my opinion removing underwater content from starting zones was a mistake. All storylines have some UW content in one form or another, meaning without a proper introduction the players are (literally) thrown into the deep when they choose to help quaggans or hyleks, which miht only add to the frustration and confusion of new players who probably havent geared anything until that point. More weirdly so, the asura starting story for VOEP still has an underwaterfight as well.In my opinion, starting zones are designed to learn the basics of all events. Escorts are slow, boss events are lenient, and bosses with mechanics give plenty of space to practice dodging. So why should the starting zone not have lenient content to learn underwater fighting? The shark event in Soren Dra was actually one my favourites. Breaking structures while fending off inquest, followed by a shark fight.§For secondary content we can even have underwater masteries.One line of core tyria abilities. One line that requires HoT and one line that requires PoF (and consumes content related mastery points)Core tyria ; quaggan friends > oceanic explorationHoT ; can’t think of any at the moment, sadly, but I’ll update this line later.PoF ; shark mount > attack skill > dash through strong currents to reach locked/hidden areas.§And lastly but not least.. and this might be the weirdest idea on my list..Sunken LeviathanA small underwater instance south of Orr which functions as a home instance. No real NPCs just a few luxon ghosts of a small group that fled cantha but ran into Orr.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

The way to fix underwater combat is simple. Make it like combat on land but with water physics. We're already doing "illogical" things like phantom axes that pulls enemies in as Firebrand, infinite bullet pistols/rifles, Boomerang floating axes as Necro, giant phantom hammer out of no where on Revenant.

 

Just allow land combat to be part of underwater combat.

Add Harpoon/Trident/Spear as land weapons and give them new skills and add them to the classes that can use them.

Tridents will be an "aquatic based" Staff for all that can use it.

Harpoons are more straight/piercing bleeding crossbow/rifle type weapons for the classes that already can use it.

Spears will be pretty much... spears/polearms/pikes on land for the classes that can already equip them.

 

Then allow all the land weapons to work underwater from daggers, pistols, axes, staves, sceptres, whatever. The only difference underwater should have is pretty much the physics of it all and the slower movement than on land.

[Ayakaru.6583]

Well, that would be one method.. but I think a fix of that quality would label the game a triple F quality game.

In that case its probably better not to do anything at all, and let UW content die. Its not something you can halfquaggan. Or you fix it or you don’t. That’s why a proper fix would probably have to come with a huge patch

[Mewcifer.5198]

About underwater: I personally feel a lot of people don't bother to explore their underwater skills and find out what they do. You can't play underwater the same way you would play on land. I think most the frustration is that people don't take the time to learn and get frustrated because their land build isn't working underwater.

 

With that said, Anet really needs to rebalance the skills to make sure they are doing appropriate amounts of damage and revisit which skills are available underwater to allow more flexibility. Many classes get their abilities cut nearly in half because the lack of things they can use.

 

An underwater balance patch and some more skills converted to underwater is really all that needs done.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> About underwater: I personally feel a lot of people don't bother to explore their underwater skills and find out what they do. You can't play underwater the same way you would play on land. I think most the frustration is that people don't take the time to learn and get frustrated because their land build isn't working underwater.

>

> With that said, Anet really needs to rebalance the skills to make sure they are doing appropriate amounts of damage and revisit which skills are available underwater to allow more flexibility. Many classes get their abilities cut nearly in half because the lack of things they can use.

>

> An underwater balance patch and some more skills converted to underwater is really all that needs done.

 

Oh, I know what my skills do underwater.

 

The problem is that it seems that unless I'm Ranger or Necro, it sucks.

Every spirit on Revenant should work underwater. All of them.

[Mewcifer.5198]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > About underwater: I personally feel a lot of people don't bother to explore their underwater skills and find out what they do. You can't play underwater the same way you would play on land. I think most the frustration is that people don't take the time to learn and get frustrated because their land build isn't working underwater.

> >

> > With that said, Anet really needs to rebalance the skills to make sure they are doing appropriate amounts of damage and revisit which skills are available underwater to allow more flexibility. Many classes get their abilities cut nearly in half because the lack of things they can use.

> >

> > An underwater balance patch and some more skills converted to underwater is really all that needs done.

>

> Oh, I know what my skills do underwater.

>

> The problem is that it seems that unless I'm Ranger or Necro, it sucks.

> Every spirit on Revenant should work underwater. All of them.

 

Yeah, there are classes that get the short end of the stick. And there are many things that don't work underwater without any reason why they shouldn't. To add to your list of classes that aren't in dire need of the changes would be engi. I actually do fairly well with my engi when underwater. Warrior isn't too horrible either but the skills need rebalanced to do appropriate damage, currently it feels like poking things with a toothpick, the skills themselves are okay but the damage they do needs kicked up. Ranger is also not too horrible, with a similar problem to the warrior where skills don't feel like they do the right amounts of damage but it tilts more to the side of "not enough skills for underwater"

 

Rev probably needs the most work from what I have heard, but I haven't gotten around to playing one yet personally.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > > About underwater: I personally feel a lot of people don't bother to explore their underwater skills and find out what they do. You can't play underwater the same way you would play on land. I think most the frustration is that people don't take the time to learn and get frustrated because their land build isn't working underwater.

> > >

> > > With that said, Anet really needs to rebalance the skills to make sure they are doing appropriate amounts of damage and revisit which skills are available underwater to allow more flexibility. Many classes get their abilities cut nearly in half because the lack of things they can use.

> > >

> > > An underwater balance patch and some more skills converted to underwater is really all that needs done.

> >

> > Oh, I know what my skills do underwater.

> >

> > The problem is that it seems that unless I'm Ranger or Necro, it sucks.

> > Every spirit on Revenant should work underwater. All of them.

>

> Yeah, there are classes that get the short end of the stick. And there are many things that don't work underwater without any reason why they shouldn't. To add to your list of classes that aren't in dire need of the changes would be engi. I actually do fairly well with my engi when underwater. Warrior isn't too horrible either but the skills need rebalanced to do appropriate damage, currently it feels like poking things with a toothpick, the skills themselves are okay but the damage they do needs kicked up. Ranger is also not too horrible, with a similar problem to the warrior where skills don't feel like they do the right amounts of damage but it tilts more to the side of "not enough skills for underwater"

>

> Rev probably needs the most work from what I have heard, but I haven't gotten around to playing one yet personally.

 

Forgot about Engineer as I don't have one of my own, but I've played one underwater. Yeah Engineer seems to work really great underwater.

Warrior... yeah... needs some work... (heh "some").

 

Want to know how to play Rev underwater?

If you need range you press 1. If you need to do anything else? Mash 2. Just Mash 2.

You will get the sound of kokkokkokkokkokkokkok.... kokkokkokkokkokkokkok.... kokkokkokkokkokkokkok.... kokkokkokkokkokkokkok of the impact found of it.

The issue is the other spear attacks can be decent but either have really bad setups to them (like how Revenant Sword was until they fixed that thing a few weeks ago) or have really lame cooldowns that even if you use them you're back to mashing 2 with the kokkokkokkokkokkokkok.

 

Utilities sometimes but of course for fighting it's just 2... 2 all the way... Yaaaay 2....

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > > @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > > > About underwater: I personally feel a lot of people don't bother to explore their underwater skills and find out what they do. You can't play underwater the same way you would play on land. I think most the frustration is that people don't take the time to learn and get frustrated because their land build isn't working underwater.

> > > >

> > > > With that said, Anet really needs to rebalance the skills to make sure they are doing appropriate amounts of damage and revisit which skills are available underwater to allow more flexibility. Many classes get their abilities cut nearly in half because the lack of things they can use.

> > > >

> > > > An underwater balance patch and some more skills converted to underwater is really all that needs done.

> > >

> > > Oh, I know what my skills do underwater.

> > >

> > > The problem is that it seems that unless I'm Ranger or Necro, it sucks.

> > > Every spirit on Revenant should work underwater. All of them.

> >

> > Yeah, there are classes that get the short end of the stick. And there are many things that don't work underwater without any reason why they shouldn't. To add to your list of classes that aren't in dire need of the changes would be engi. I actually do fairly well with my engi when underwater. Warrior isn't too horrible either but the skills need rebalanced to do appropriate damage, currently it feels like poking things with a toothpick, the skills themselves are okay but the damage they do needs kicked up. Ranger is also not too horrible, with a similar problem to the warrior where skills don't feel like they do the right amounts of damage but it tilts more to the side of "not enough skills for underwater"

> >

> > Rev probably needs the most work from what I have heard, but I haven't gotten around to playing one yet personally.

>

> Forgot about Engineer as I don't have one of my own, but I've played one underwater. Yeah Engineer seems to work really great underwater.

> Warrior... yeah... needs some work... (heh "some").

>

> Want to know how to play Rev underwater?

> If you need range you press 1. If you need to do anything else? Mash 2. Just Mash 2.

> You will get the sound of kokkokkokkokkokkokkok.... kokkokkokkokkokkokkok.... kokkokkokkokkokkokkok.... kokkokkokkokkokkokkok of the impact found of it.

> The issue is the other spear attacks can be decent but either have really bad setups to them (like how Revenant Sword was until they fixed that thing a few weeks ago) or have really lame cooldowns that even if you use them you're back to mashing 2 with the kokkokkokkokkokkokkok.

>

> Utilities sometimes but of course for fighting it's just 2... 2 all the way... Yaaaay 2....

 

the warrior's not even got the shortest stick, literally. We get a spear with a leapskill, and we can use shouts underwater (how is beyond me)

[Wandering Mist.2973]

The problem with underwater combat isn't the abilities or the weapons but the actual combat itself. On land you can only move in 4 directions (left, right, forwards and backwards). But underwater you have 2 more directions: up and down. This changes everything it completely changes a person's perception of where an enemy is compared to you. The camera and combat system in gw2 isn't designed to account for the added dimensions which is why the underwater combat feels so clunky.

 

Just for example have you ever thought you were at the same level as a mob but attacked only to discover you were actually beneath or anove them? It's very disorientating which is partly why most people don't like it. If they wanted to improve underwater comvat they would have to completely redesign the core aspects of the game like the camera and movement, something I doubt they will do.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> The problem with underwater combat isn't the abilities or the weapons but the actual combat itself. On land you can only move in 4 directions (left, right, forwards and backwards). But underwater you have 2 more directions: up and down. This changes everything it completely changes a person's perception of where an enemy is compared to you. The camera and combat system in gw2 isn't designed to account for the added dimensions which is why the underwater combat feels so clunky.

>

> Just for example have you ever thought you were at the same level as a mob but attacked only to discover you were actually beneath or anove them? It's very disorientating which is partly why most people don't like it. If they wanted to improve underwater comvat they would have to completely redesign the core aspects of the game like the camera and movement, something I doubt they will do.

 

I myself never have had this issue, but I've been playing with a gamepad.

I'm used to games where you fight underwater like this or games where you're fighting in the air which would have the XYZ axis kind of combat to them.

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > The problem with underwater combat isn't the abilities or the weapons but the actual combat itself. On land you can only move in 4 directions (left, right, forwards and backwards). But underwater you have 2 more directions: up and down. This changes everything it completely changes a person's perception of where an enemy is compared to you. The camera and combat system in gw2 isn't designed to account for the added dimensions which is why the underwater combat feels so clunky.

> >

> > Just for example have you ever thought you were at the same level as a mob but attacked only to discover you were actually beneath or anove them? It's very disorientating which is partly why most people don't like it. If they wanted to improve underwater comvat they would have to completely redesign the core aspects of the game like the camera and movement, something I doubt they will do.

>

> I myself never have had this issue, but I've been playing with a gamepad.

> I'm used to games where you fight underwater like this or games where you're fighting in the air which would have the XYZ axis kind of combat to them.

 

Also a gamepad user. Also have no problems tracking my enemy in the water. I honestly think water combat is okay and it makes me cringe how they try to shovel it under the rug.

 

 

[mazut.4296]

The only fix is to add a lot more new underwater areas...

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> In my opinion removing underwater content from starting zones was a mistake. All storylines have some UW content in one form or another, meaning without a proper introduction the players are (literally) thrown into the deep when they choose to help quaggans or hyleks, which miht only add to the frustration and confusion of new players who probably havent geared anything until that point. More weirdly so, the asura starting story for VOEP still has an underwaterfight as well.

> In my opinion, starting zones are designed to learn the basics of all events. Escorts are slow, boss events are lenient, and bosses with mechanics give plenty of space to practice dodging. So why should the starting zone not have lenient content to learn underwater fighting? The shark event in Soren Dra was actually one my favourites. Breaking structures while fending off inquest, followed by a shark fight.

They didn't remove underwater content from the starting zones entirely, only from the lowest-level parts adjacent to the entrance. Stuff in the higher-level parts (like the multiple underwater hearts in Caledon, or the fisherman heart by Beetletun in Queensdale) were left untouched.

[Glider.5792]

I just think that an easy way to add more UW content is with a new mastery. New mastery would allow us to "sink" to the bottom, dissabling UW combat, and just puting us into actual combat and movement, as if we're on land, but move a bit slower.

The new maps (if UW expansion would come) would be made with both UW and "Land" combat in mind. There would be bottom dwellers and "swimmer" monsters. Gliding and Mounts would be dissabled, except for a possible new mount/s which would be for purely underwater (a crab that can traverse the bottom and walls, some fish for fast movement).

I do not think new traitlines are needed, just current ones need maybe bit more balancing when it comes to underwater, but mainly **All utility skills/legends need to be available**. That is imo one of the main issues.

 

Also, if UW expansion would come, the engine would have to be updated in some way imo. So that the water lvl could be different at different parts of the map. This would allow us to have "pure land combat" at some parts of the map, even underwater. "Sink mastery" already solves this in one way, but adjustable water lvl would enable areas where there is no tri-dimensional combat at all.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> Firstly, remove all utility skills underwater, and create a set of underwater utility skills that truly reflect how each class would behave underwater.

> Mesmers use refraction of light, elementalists boil water, freeze it. Necromancers create clouds of tiki-piranhas, and undead sharks, as well as releasing toxic clouds that pollute the waters.

 

As utopian as it'd be, this would be **really** cool. Much like some weapon skills (for example Elementalist staff) this would allow them to design truly fitting underwater combat mechanics and fx. :open_mouth:

[blambidy.3216]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:> Underwater combat is one of the greatest things when pulled off well, but simultaneously a hell when not.> These my suggestions that might help restore underwater combat and adventuring.> > §> > Firstly, remove all utility skills underwater, and create a set of underwater utility skills that truly reflect how each class would behave underwater.> Mesmers use refraction of light, elementalists boil water, freeze it. Necromancers create clouds of tiki-piranhas, and undead sharks, as well as releasing toxic clouds that pollute the waters.> > §> > Secondly, as an addon to the first, give the revenant a legend (in core, not elite) thats meant for underwater. Shiro en Stoneking just feel hamfisted into underwater content with zero synergy. Im personally thinking of:

The Naga Ssuns, Blessed of Dwayna,

but you can create a character as well.> > §> > Thirdly, in traits. Remove the UW weapon traits from the existing traitlines, and create 2-3 traitlines for underwater content in a fourth traitline slot (below the specialization slot). One that focusess on each of the one weapons, spears, spearguns and tridents. You can only choose one at a time, and the base three traitlines also still works. For balancing issues I’d recommend a deviate version of the base traits. Example: “bleeding applied lasts 15% longer” on land, and “bleeding applied last 8% longer” underwater.> > §> > With the top three inserts it should be possible to propely balance UW combat content without interference of land content.> Now we can get to actual content. > In my opinion removing underwater content from starting zones was a mistake. All storylines have some UW content in one form or another, meaning without a proper introduction the players are (literally) thrown into the deep when they choose to help quaggans or hyleks, which miht only add to the frustration and confusion of new players who probably havent geared anything until that point. More weirdly so, the asura starting story for VOEP still has an underwaterfight as well.> In my opinion, starting zones are designed to learn the basics of all events. Escorts are slow, boss events are lenient, and bosses with mechanics give plenty of space to practice dodging. So why should the starting zone not have lenient content to learn underwater fighting? The shark event in Soren Dra was actually one my favourites. Breaking structures while fending off inquest, followed by a shark fight.> > §> > For secondary content we can even have underwater masteries.> One line of core tyria abilities. One line that requires HoT and one line that requires PoF (and consumes content related mastery points)> Core tyria ; quaggan friends > oceanic exploration> HoT ; can’t think of any at the moment, sadly, but I’ll update this line later.> PoF ; shark mount > attack skill > dash through strong currents to reach locked/hidden areas.> > §> > And lastly but not least.. and this might be the weirdest idea on my list..> Sunken Leviathan> A small underwater instance south of Orr which functions as a home instance. No real NPCs just a few luxon ghosts of a small group that fled cantha but ran into Orr.I totally agree with you. I believe it would be the only way for us to like underwater combat. I believe the reason why we don’t have underwater raids, dungeons, more underwater fractals is because, the underwater combat wasn’t fully thought out. Also what would be amazing is you would have the ability to use other weapons besides the harpoon, spear and trident. If classes had another trait line specifically for underwater, their could be also a specific weapon to be used underwater for that class. If arenanet added skills for each class that were usable underwater. It would bring water combat to a new level, and it would also lead to an underwater expansion that people would be satisfied with. Almost all classes have a handful of underwater skills that defeat the purpose of the build we choose. So if arenanet can accommodate the skills and add a traitline, maybe a weapon, it would truly satisfy most people.

[starlinvf.1358]

am I the only one that noticed this thread is a year old?

 

 

 

But while we're on the subject...... UW combat mainly suffers from a lack of Skills in total for players to capitalize on. half the reason for that is the inability to easily define the targets of movement based skills in a 3 dimensional space. Every ground target skills immediately has problem; and has to be switched to something else in order to even function properly.

 

The tricky part here is that UW combat needs to be less position sensitive, but that as an idea breaks down since tab targeting basically breaks combat without position and range being something the player can control and exploit. It needs a new approach to combat that won't just devolve into circle strafing (which is kind of what we do now when its not just a straight up chase). If its gonna be movement focused, we'll need more dodges to make up the lack of position control. If its gonna be skill based, we'll need a new set of weapons to add defensive options, and expand the skill sets by a significant amount. It may even require a set of UW exclusive utility skills to help flesh out things a class would need.

 

The amount of thought that would have to into it would parallel that of designing the class around a new game mode, with its unique rules for movement and terrain. This is not unreasonable.... but its definitely time consuming and requires a lot of iteration to make work right. Because failing that (due to lack of time) is why UW at launch had a good foundation, but doesn't build upward in any significant way. Its definitely not too late..... but it will need a substantial effort to get off the ground.

[Puma.3645]

--removed-

[broFenix.1632]

I think I'm in the minority but I absolutely love underwater combat in Guild Wars 2. That you can swim in 3 dimensions and have combat pretty close to the ground combat, in my opinion, is something I have not experienced in another game before. Since launch, I have loved swimming underwater in Frostgorge Sound to look at the icebergs below the water and fight enemies down there for a little. I think the environment and asthetic of being underwater really makes me love underwater combat.