Is Chrono the ONLY good tank?

[narcx.3570]

> @"Rain.9213" said:

> So I'm trying to diversify my raiding roles to better fill whatever my group needs for the run. I can already run either Condi or Power Weaver and blow everything up but unfortunately, Eles are awful tanks. With that in mind, I am trying to find a tank build to play but I really do not enjoy Mesmer. Are there any other good tank builds for literally any other class besides Mesmer or would it be too dentrimental to run anything else?

 

Any class--yes even Minstrel Ele's--make fine tanks... The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank and you generally need to bring two of them anyways, so it just makes sense. Using your second healer (if you are using two healers) to tank works in the same philosophy, but you don't see it as often since most healer's don't have a toughness set due to how entrenched chronotank is in the LFG meta...

 

I feel like a minstrel Renegade with a quickness spam Firebrand could replace both the chronotank and healer in one sub quite effectively and probably even be a higher overall group dps combo, but it's not something you'd really want to invest gear into setting up since everybody still just uses chronos and in order to make it work, you'd always have to find someone geared to be the other half of your Quickness/Alacrity/Tank/Healer duo, and that's not very likely outside of a static. Which is why chrono's reign supreme for tanking--it's so much easier to find one person to cover the three roles than a bunch of hodgepodge people to get the job done--even if they would do it better.

[Knox.8962]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank

This part is the only part I strongly disagree with. Condi classes lose almost no damage going to full tank mode (typically in the neighborhood of 10% or less DPS loss to go from full viper to full trailblazer)

 

If you were planning to run a full Minstrel chrono for a fight, the better DPS option is almost always to keep the chrono in zerk gear and have FB go trailblazer instead of viper.

 

Zerk Chrono -> Minstrel Chrono

~10k -> ~2k

 

Viper Quickbrand -> TB Quickbrand

~27k -> ~24k

 

[Rising Dusk.2408]

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> I'm just saying that for maximizing damage output, any fight where you feel compelled to use a minstrel chrono can be handled by a trailblazer geared condi class at far lower group DPS loss.

For any encounter where your team is seriously considering a Minstrel's Chronomancer, you actually are benefiting from the surprisingly large ancillary heals of the Chronomancer as much or more than the fact that the Minstrel's Chronomancer is _tanky_. Well of Eternity has a whopping 1.2 Healing Power coefficient, and most raid Regeneration ticks are coming from your Chronomancers anyway. The only exception to that is if you're also running 2 Harrier Druids, in which case you should seriously drop the Minstrel's Chronomancer to begin with (or swap one of the Druids for a better healer if your group needs that much padding).

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> I'm sorry that very clear and obviously knowable math doesn't meet your standards for proof. I even showed my work and everything.

>

> None of these mechanics or interactions are mysteries.

>

> If you'd like to make a video proving that the difference between the two builds posted is greater than 9%, I'll accept that as proof that my math is wrong.

>

> Make sure you use a large enough sample size to filter out the noise. 20 or 30 frame perfect parses on the 50 million HP golem for each build should be sufficient.

 

Try 4 mil x 50 golem kill testing, you know, like real benchmarkers? The benchmark is to prove your math correct. Stop being lazy.

 

You'd think that due to the multiplicative nature of boons/buffs, and the past history of math being used to prove a build, that people would stop relying on math alone in this game.

 

Especially because of how bugged conditions are where you actually lose condition ticks (which they still havent properly fixed). I never stated the mechanics or interactions are mysteries, i simply asked for a benchmark to show your math in action. If that offends you, too bad.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> > @"narcx.3570" said:

> > The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank

> This part is the only part I strongly disagree with. Condi classes lose almost no damage going to full tank mode (typically in the neighborhood of 10% or less DPS loss to go from full viper to full trailblazer)

>

> If you were planning to run a full Minstrel chrono for a fight, the better DPS option is almost always to keep the chrono in zerk gear and have FB go trailblazer instead of viper.

>

> Zerk Chrono -> Minstrel Chrono

> ~10k -> ~2k

>

> Viper Quickbrand -> TB Quickbrand

> ~27k -> ~24k

>

 

There is no such thing as condi classes, only condi builds, and some condition builds have higher power coeffecients than others. Unless you can prove this and benchmark it, like i said before, it comes off as dishonest or just plain lazy.

 

If you do the proper work, there would be no questions, but some builds dont have 10% power damage, even for conditions. For some condition builds its as high as 30-40% simply due to the weapon set having a higher power scaling, like axe on firebrand. Which allowed for a greiver build to exist.

[Knox.8962]

> @"Rising Dusk.2408" said:

> > @"Knox.8962" said:

> > I'm just saying that for maximizing damage output, any fight where you feel compelled to use a minstrel chrono can be handled by a trailblazer geared condi class at far lower group DPS loss.

> For any encounter where your team is seriously considering a Minstrel's Chronomancer, you actually are benefiting from the surprisingly large ancillary heals of the Chronomancer as much or more than the fact that the Minstrel's Chronomancer is _tanky_. Well of Eternity has a whopping 1.2 Healing Power coefficient, and most raid Regeneration ticks are coming from your Chronomancers anyway. The only exception to that is if you're also running 2 Harrier Druids, in which case you should seriously drop the Minstrel's Chronomancer to begin with (or swap one of the Druids for a better healer if your group needs that much padding).

 

Most of the fights where people like to use tankier tanks (VG, Xera, Deimos, SH) are because the TANK is at increased risk of dying due to incoming boss damage (or being left alone to tank without a healer) not because the rest of the raid is taking inordinate amounts of damage. So while the heals from a minstrel chrono are non-zero, the regen is typically competing with druid regen (which is typically better) so you're mostly looking at the heals that splash the group from your Heal skill and associated traits.

 

That said, the vast majority of raid kills on gw2raidar still get flagged as having 2 support druids.

 

Wing 4 bosses are flagged support druids as follows:

Cairn - 1.83

MO - 1.62

Sam - 1.69

Deimos - 1.75

 

That doesn't even include instances of support Ren, Herald, Tempest or FB builds. Nor does it include condi Ventari Renegades, or condi druids.

[Knox.8962]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"Knox.8962" said:

> > I'm sorry that very clear and obviously knowable math doesn't meet your standards for proof. I even showed my work and everything.

> >

> > None of these mechanics or interactions are mysteries.

> >

> > If you'd like to make a video proving that the difference between the two builds posted is greater than 9%, I'll accept that as proof that my math is wrong.

> >

> > Make sure you use a large enough sample size to filter out the noise. 20 or 30 frame perfect parses on the 50 million HP golem for each build should be sufficient.

>

> Try 4 mil x 50 golem kill testing, you know, like real benchmarkers? The benchmark is to prove your math correct. Stop being lazy.

>

> You'd think that due to the multiplicative nature of boons/buffs, and the past history of math being used to prove a build, that people would stop relying on math alone in this game.

>

> Especially because of how bugged conditions are where you actually lose condition ticks (which they still havent properly fixed). I never stated the mechanics or interactions are mysteries, i simply asked for a benchmark to show your math in action. If that offends you, too bad.

 

I have plenty of data and wiki info to back up my position. I've [shown it](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/350718/#Comment_350718) multiple times. If you're asserting that the wiki formulas are wrong or my damage calculations are wrong, I'd be happy to review specific portions of the work that you take exception with. If you don't accept math as proof, you're welcome to not take me seriously

 

Your to continued shouting that I need to show a video of me beating some other players benchmark number is the equivalent of asking the engineers at Nike to beat Usain Bolt in a race before they try to advertise or sell a new and improved shoe that they've designed.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> > @"narcx.3570" said:

> > The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank

> This part is the only part I strongly disagree with. Condi classes lose almost no damage going to full tank mode (typically in the neighborhood of 10% or less DPS loss to go from full viper to full trailblazer)

>

> If you were planning to run a full Minstrel chrono for a fight, the better DPS option is almost always to keep the chrono in zerk gear and have FB go trailblazer instead of viper.

>

> Zerk Chrono -> Minstrel Chrono

> ~10k -> ~2k

>

> Viper Quickbrand -> TB Quickbrand

> ~27k -> ~24k

>

 

Automatically assuming the tank is full minstrel is also a leap... While it may be standard in the PUG community to go full minstrel, that's because people are bad/untrusted/likely to eat mechanics and your Chrono is essentially acting as another healer--not just somebody to tank the boss. If you don't need overhealing, it's not uncommon for Chronotanks to just use a few pieces of commander's for agro and rely on rotating their i-frames to negate the bulk of the damage. Plus, you're using a golem benchmark for that Zerker chrono's DPS, which fails to account for the fact that it's your chronomancer's that end up doing the bulk of the mechanics in a fight, delay rotations for breakbars, rez the bads, drop their DPS in favor of boon uptime, etc... And you'll expect them to do those things whether they're the tank or not.

 

Also, I don't buy that a Trailblazer Firebrand is that close to Grievous, Sinister, or Viper because so much of their rotation involves camping scepter, which is essentially a power weapon--I could be wrong cuz I haven't done the math/testing myself, but yeah, I'm gonna say it's a lot more than 3k--especially on a real, non golem fight. You could maybe make that argument for a Trailblazer Scourge instead of a Viper Scourge, but even in that example you're bringing a Scourge instead of a Weaver/DH/Holo or Ren/Mirage. And I do still think a Chronotank + a Weaver out dps's a Trailblazer Condi Class + a Zerk Chrono.

 

Like I said originally, I'm not saying other classes can't be the tank, or you need a chrono to do it... But if you're in a group going for optimization you probably will. And also, if you're pugging you probably will as well, because when you're not using a chrono you need to find a lot of really specific other classes to fill their void, and GL with that in LFG.

[Rising Dusk.2408]

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> Most of the fights where people like to use tankier tanks (VG, Xera, Deimos, SH) are because the TANK is at increased risk of dying due to incoming boss damage (or being left alone to tank without a healer) not because the rest of the raid is taking inordinate amounts of damage. So while the heals from a minstrel chrono are non-zero, the regen is typically competing with druid regen (which is typically better) so you're mostly looking at the heals that splash the group from your Heal skill and associated traits.

I appreciate your raidar stats, and it sounds like you're correct for pubs. From my perspective as someone who exclusively raids with statics of varying skill level and familiarity, however, we would never have a Minstrel's Chronomancer in the same subgroup as a Harrier's Druid (because that's really dumb), and in some cases (Xera, for instance) the Minstrel's Chronomancer completely substitutes for the second healer allowing us to run another DPS class.

 

That all said and since your argument focused on pubs, let me just say that I don't think pubs are a good place where anyone should consider non-Chronomancer tanks. People want role compression (Alacrity/Tank/Quickness/Heals) because it makes it easier to fill groups when you only have to rely on one person for a huge portion of your roles as opposed to two or three. Your single best bet for trying more spread-out compositions is to find a static that has people interested in experimenting with you.

[Knox.8962]

> @"Rising Dusk.2408" said:

> > @"Knox.8962" said:

> > Most of the fights where people like to use tankier tanks (VG, Xera, Deimos, SH) are because the TANK is at increased risk of dying due to incoming boss damage (or being left alone to tank without a healer) not because the rest of the raid is taking inordinate amounts of damage. So while the heals from a minstrel chrono are non-zero, the regen is typically competing with druid regen (which is typically better) so you're mostly looking at the heals that splash the group from your Heal skill and associated traits.

> I appreciate your raidar stats, and it sounds like you're correct for pubs. From my perspective as someone who exclusively raids with statics of varying skill level and familiarity, however, we would never have a Minstrel's Chronomancer in the same subgroup as a Harrier's Druid (because that's really dumb), and in some cases (Xera, for instance) the Minstrel's Chronomancer completely substitutes for the second healer allowing us to run another DPS class.

>

> That all said and since your argument focused on pubs, let me just say that I don't think pubs are a good place where anyone should consider non-Chronomancer tanks. People want role compression (Alacrity/Tank/Quickness/Heals) because it makes it easier to fill groups when you only have to rely on one person for a huge portion of your roles as opposed to two or three. Your single best bet for trying more spread-out compositions is to find a static that has people interested in experimenting with you.

 

I raid with a static group weekly. I also pug and sub for friends' static groups frequently on nights where my static doesn't run. I think your perspective is seriously skewed if you think that most static groups look more like 2 condi druids and less like 2 magi druids.

 

Just the fact that people take the time to run a meter and upload the logs to GW2Raidar in the first place pushes them really far out of the casual "Shooty McBearbow" crowd and skews that data very heavily towards a more serious group of raiders.

[Rising Dusk.2408]

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> I raid with a static group weekly. I also pug and sub for friends' static groups frequently on nights where my static doesn't run. I think your perspective is seriously skewed if you think that most static groups look more like 2 condi druids and less like 2 magi druids.

I've never mentioned a condition Druid anywhere in my posts. All I've said is that in a lot of cases, my groups only run one Harrier's Druid.

 

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> Just the fact that people take the time to run a meter and upload the logs to GW2Raidar in the first place pushes them really far out of the casual "Shooty McBearbow" crowd and skews that data very heavily towards a more serious group of raiders.

A lot of those logs get uploaded by single players from groups, and that doesn't come close to representing the majority of the players. You're not wrong that a lot of people are pretty serious business about raids, though, but I do think you seriously overestimate how much those players are willing to sit around waiting for X class / build combination (that's already not very popular) just to try something different that might in some contexts be better than just running a Chronomancer. This is only exacerbated when you consider that a majority of those players who might be good enough to support tangential strategies really just want consistent clears if they're pubbing.

[Knox.8962]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> > @"Knox.8962" said:

> > > @"narcx.3570" said:

> > > The thing is that Chrono's lose the least DPS (since it wasn't that high in the first place) from going tank

> > This part is the only part I strongly disagree with. Condi classes lose almost no damage going to full tank mode (typically in the neighborhood of 10% or less DPS loss to go from full viper to full trailblazer)

> >

> > If you were planning to run a full Minstrel chrono for a fight, the better DPS option is almost always to keep the chrono in zerk gear and have FB go trailblazer instead of viper.

> >

> > Zerk Chrono -> Minstrel Chrono

> > ~10k -> ~2k

> >

> > Viper Quickbrand -> TB Quickbrand

> > ~27k -> ~24k

> >

>

> Automatically assuming the tank is full minstrel is also a leap... While it may be standard in the PUG community to go full minstrel, that's because people are bad/untrusted/likely to eat mechanics and your Chrono is essentially acting as another healer--not just somebody to tank the boss. If you don't need overhealing, it's not uncommon for Chronotanks to just use a few pieces of commander's for agro and rely on rotating their i-frames to negate the bulk of the damage.

 

Any place where you would go Half-Minstrel you could easily go Half-Trailblazer on a FB.

 

> Also, I don't buy that a Trailblazer Firebrand is that close to Grievous, Sinister, or Viper because so much of their rotation involves camping scepter, which is essentially a power weapon--I could be wrong cuz I haven't done the math/testing myself, but yeah, I'm gonna say it's a lot more than 3k--especially on a real, non golem fight.

 

Comparing the [Viper Quickbrand](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsf3fnsADFBjdBDWCBEEhF/BL7BVhyQWBgKQdaviuRHpA-jhhAQBgU5HAeCA2c/RJIEV/Bg6Hs4JBIAQCw4R8IeEPgxT8EPxT8EPaT30NdT30NdTjnNdTlCgnlVA-e) and [TB Quickbrand](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsf3fnsADFBjdBDWCBEEhF/BzKAUBqTZPoKUGaviuRHpA-jBiAQBVTFEPq8DAPBAHq+RMVCaz9H8n+BLeSAiHEAMJBWVpqqqkCgnNbA-e) is pretty simple. Using the following assumptions:

 

25 Might, burning on the target (10% crit chance via Radiant Power), Pinpoint, EA, Banner of Strength, Banner of Discipline

 

[Viper Build:](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsf3fnsADFBjdBDWCBEEhF/BL7BVhyQWBgKQdaviuRHpA-jhhAQBgU5HAeCA2c/RJIEV/Bg6Hs4JBIAQCw4R8IeEPgxT8EPxT8EPaT30NdT30NdTjnNdTlCgnlVA-e)

* Power - 3243 = 2173 + 750 + 150 + 170

* Crit - 91.57% = (1703 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 15% + 10%

* Crit Damage - 161.3% = (0 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500

* Eff. Power - 5064.4 = 3243 x (91.57% x 61.33% + 1)

* Condi Damage - 3009 = 1689 + 150 + 170 + 750 + 250

* Burning 1s Base - 1375.4 = (131 + 0.155 x 3009)*(1+100%) * 1.15 (Amplified Wrath)

* Bleeding 1s Base - 294.1 = (22 + 0.06 x 3009)*(1+45.2%)

 

 

[TB Build:](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsf3fnsADFBjdBDWCBEEhF/BzKAUBqTZPoKUGaviuRHpA-jBiAQBVTFEPq8DAPBAHq+RMVCaz9H8n+BLeSAiHEAMJBWVpqqqkCgnNbA-e)

* Power - 2104 = 1034 + 750 + 150 + 170

* Crit - 63.05% = (1104 + 170 - 895(base crit))/2100 + 20% + 15% + 10%

* Crit Damage - 161.3% = (0 + 2250(base crit dmg) + 170)/1500

* Eff. Power - 2917.6 = 2104 x (63.05% x 61.33% + 1)

* Condi Damage - 3017 = 1689 + 150 + 170 + 750 + 250 + 8 (Corsair Tuning Crystal x Imbued Haste)

* Burning 1s Base - 1380.3 = (131 + 0.155 x 3017)*(1+100%) * 1.15 (Amplified Wrath)

* Bleeding 1s Base - 295.4 = (22 + 0.06 x 3017)*(1+45.5%)

 

 

Comparing the two, you can see that the TB Quickbrand the following % of Viper QuickBrand:

* Eff. Power - 57.6% = 2917.6/5064.4

* Burning - 100.4% = 1380.3/1375.4

* Bleeding - 100.4% = 295.4/294.1

 

Using [strider's Benchmark Video](

) you get the following damage breakdown:

* Burning - 69.8%

* Bleeding - 3.0%

* Everything Else - 27.2%

* Total - 100%

 

 

Scaling Strider's Numbers by the Scalings calculated above you get the following:

* Burning - 70.05% = 69.8% x 100.4%

* Bleeding - 3.01% = 3.0% x 100.4%

* Everything Else - 15.7% = 27.2% x 57.6%

* Total - 88.73%

 

That's a net loss of 11.27% DPS going from full viper to full tank Quickbrand.

 

Taking his 27,652 starting point and scaling it by those numbers, you'd end up with 24,536 in the full trailblazer setup linked above.

 

>And I do still think a Chronotank + a Weaver out dps's a Trailblazer Condi Class + a Zerk Chrono.

The question is, does TB Firebrand + Ventari Ren outdamage a Minstrel Chrono + Druid. The answer to that is undoubtedly a yes. It is certainly more complicated to find a group doing that instead of just running 2 chronos and 2 druids, but it absolutely does more damage.

 

See [This Reddit Thread](

) for more discussion on the topic.

[narcx.3570]

 

> The question is, does TB Firebrand + Ventari Ren outdamage a Minstrel Chrono + Druid. The answer to that is undoubtedly a yes. It is certainly more complicated to find a group doing that instead of just running 2 chronos and 2 druids, but it absolutely does more damage.

>

> See [This Reddit Thread](

) for more discussion on the topic.

 

Why would you not just use a Minstrel Renegade and a Viper's/Grievous FB if you're going to do that? Put all the tank/heal/alacrity on one while the other is 99% dps with Quickness... Since a Renegade keeping up 100% alacrity can't really use their energy on offensive skills anyways.

 

But even then you still need a Druid for spirits/spotter/might, so you're forcing yourself to run a 2 healer/support setup just for the sake of not wanting to use a chrono. 2 Chrono + 1 Druid + 1 BS + 6 DPS will always win unless you absolutely need the heals, but if you need all the extra heals to carry your group, working on mechanics should take priority over trying to find new class comps to carry.

 

Plus, now you're down a huge chunk of breakbar damage... You could have the Renegade help with breaks, but that will kill their alacrity uptime and scatter the adds if there are any.

 

[Knox.8962]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

>

> > The question is, does TB Firebrand + Ventari Ren outdamage a Minstrel Chrono + Druid. The answer to that is undoubtedly a yes. It is certainly more complicated to find a group doing that instead of just running 2 chronos and 2 druids, but it absolutely does more damage.

> >

> > See [This Reddit Thread](

) for more discussion on the topic.

>

> Why would you not just use a Minstrel Renegade and a Viper's/Grievous FB if you're going to do that? Put all the tank/heal/alacrity on one while the other is 99% dps with Quickness... Since a Renegade keeping up 100% alacrity can't really use their energy on offensive skills anyways.

 

Minstrel Renegade does maybe 2k damage. [Viper Ventari Renegade](

) does 25k-ish.

You can run Viper FB + Minstrel Renegade for 27.5k + 2k or you could run Viper Renegade + Trailblazer FB for 24.5k + 24.5k.

 

> But even then you still need a Druid for spirits/spotter/might, so you're forcing yourself to run a 2 healer/support setup just for the sake of not wanting to use a chrono. 2 Chrono + 1 Druid + 1 BS + 6 DPS will always win unless you absolutely need the heals, but if you need all the extra heals to carry your group, working on mechanics should take priority over trying to find new class comps to carry.

 

You need heals and quickness/alacrity for 10 people. You can get that essentially 3 ways:

* 2 Chronos, 1 harrier druid, 1 extra DPS - 10k, 10k, 5k, 35k - 60k total

* 2 Chronos, 2 Condi Druids - 10k, 10k, 20k, 20k - 60k total

* **1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Condi Druid, 1 Condi Ren - 10k, 27.5k, 20k, 24.5k - 82k total**

 

Obviously you can replace a condi druid with a harrier druid in the 2nd and 3rd setups as per your group's healing needs

 

* 2 Chronos, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Condi Druid - 10k, 10k, 5k, 20k - 45k total

* **1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Condi Ren - 10k, 27.5k, 5k, 24.5k - 67k total**

 

If you are going to use a "TANK" your numbers look like this:

 

* 2 Chronos, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 extra DPS - 10k, 5k, 5k, 35k - 55k total

* 2 Chronos, 2 Condi Druids - 10k, 5k, 20k, 20k - 55k total

* **1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Condi Druid, 1 Condi Ren - 10k, 24.5k, 20k, 24.5k - 79k total**

 

If you are a planning to use 2 Full healers

* 2 Chronos, 2 Harrier druid - 10k, 10k, 5k, 5k - 30k total

* **1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Harrier Ren - 10k, 27k, 5k, 5k - 47k total**

 

If you want a "Tank" and 2 Full healers

* 2 Chronos, 2 Harrier druid - 10k, 5k, 5k, 5k - 25k total

* **1 Chrono, 1 FB, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Harrier Ren - 10k, 24k, 5k, 5k - 44k total**

* 1 Chrono, 1 Minstrel FB, 1 Harrier Druid, 1 Condi Ren - 10k, 2k, 5k, 25k - 42k total

 

[Yasi.9065]

Chrono isnt the only good tank. It is, however, the most efficient one.

[reikken.4961]

> @"Rain.9213" said:

> but unfortunately, Eles are awful tanks.

 

Actually, ele is a good tank. Especially if your group would run two healers regardless. Your healer is your tank for group 1. It works pretty well; I've done it quite a bit. You can even go condi tank and run apothecary's gear and do some decent dps while healing and tanking.

 

but yeah plenty of classes make great tanks. The ONLY source of lack of party diversity at this point is established habit.

 

 

[Knox.8962]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> If you do the proper work, there would be no questions, but some builds dont have 10% power damage, even for conditions. For some condition builds its as high as 30-40% simply due to the weapon set having a higher power scaling, like axe on firebrand. Which allowed for a greiver build to exist.

 

See Below:

 

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> Also, I don't buy that a Trailblazer Firebrand is that close to Grievous, Sinister, or Viper because so much of their rotation involves camping scepter, which is essentially a power weapon--I could be wrong cuz I haven't done the math/testing myself, but yeah, I'm gonna say it's a lot more than 3k--especially on a real, non golem fight.

 

This [~23k DPS Log](https://dps.report/QZ0Y-20180115-171911_golem) wasn't anywhere close to a perfect rotation for me. I did a single pull with a mesmer for clones after testing a few times solo. I'm also missing a few infusions which would increase my damage a bit as well, but this should prove that these numbers are at least plausible.

 

You can see the equipped stats in [this screenshot](https://imgur.com/a/nr5kb)

 

[My Build as tested](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQJAnfnsADFBjdBDWCBEEhF/BL7BVhyQWBgKQdaviuRHpA-jxhAQB2c/BPq8DAnAAL+AA8neAHq+TMVCGPABIBAADQACQACQA0qX9qDQACQACwqDgUA8sTD-e)

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

If minstrell chrono is 6k dps less then zerk it doesnt nean that necro + zerk chrono is better. It might be better then minstrell + dps necro but not when you change necro to for example ele

[shippage.1983]

Druid, Tempest, Firebrand are all good tanks as well.

 

IMO Druid is the most useful for it's healing while still doing good damage. A druid can singlehandedly save the entire party from a wipe.

Chrono is only preferred because it's a DPS boost to the entire party, and most meta comps are decided by max DPS output.

In realistic PUG groups, you want to focus sustain over max DPS.