Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 From QTFY on reddit "Nothing actually changed for Power Reaper, it's still useless for speed clears. Whereas condi reaper still relies on getting whirl finishers in chill fields and with the recent condi nerfs it falls far behind the other condi dps options. We still hope necromancer skills and traits get more synergy and reworks in the future, but are scared by anet’s perception of scourge since they called it a “heavy support” which we strongly disagree with." WHAT IS OUR SUPPORT? 0 Team damage buffs a 2k Heal on transfusion ermm what 40 heal on hit (yes we are stretching that far) ermmmmmmmm What we dont have... Actual damage support Actual Healing Not even good combo fields Am I missing this heavy support angle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toll Booth Willie.6723 Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Think TF2 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 Because we can secretly get out a gun and shoot people in Team Fortress 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 The the main problem we have isn't necessarily the amount of support we have per se, it's more how "universally" applicable that "heavy support" is for Scourge. Assuming you build a support stat like Harrier's or something similar, the following is support that works for us in all situations (In a PvE scenario): * Barrier Application: Small application for 10 players, large for 5 * Basic Heals: Transfusion, and Life from Death * Minor Might Stacking: Blood is Power The problem is, we have more support options than this, but it isn't anywhere near as universally applicable as options on other professions: * Might stacking: Oppressive Collapse can be used in tandem with Blood is Power to stack 25 might for 5 players, but only if they are stacked on top of an enemy target that has about 10+ unique conditions on them at any given time. * Powerful Player Revival: Transfusion, Last Rites and Ritual of Life are very powerful for this, but are only useful if you have allies that are going down. This is less likely to occur enough for these to be worth it as the skill level of your group increases. * Powerful Boon Corruption: Only applicable on bosses where large amounts of boons are present, and typically can be dealt with faster and with less intentionally by a Chrono * Powerful Condition Cleansing: Only applicable on fights where you're constantly being affected by conditions instead of flat damage. * Minor Lifesteal for allies: only works when allies are hitting something, not good for when flat healing is needed You can compare this to a support class like Druid, where most of their tools to support allies are in most cases always applicable: They can always heal, always grant might (to 10 players) , and player revival isn't a major strength of the build so their other tools are able to be more powerful; overall far more universally applicable to a given situation. What Scourge really needed was to not be overloaded with supportive tools that aren't applicable to the game mode it's supportive options weren't useful for pre-PoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted January 7, 2018 Author Share Posted January 7, 2018 Okay scourge has some support, not enough to call it a heavy support but it has some. I would take a chrono or druid over it anyday. But what about Base Necro and Reaper....They support is so limited, the group utility is so limited. What is this heavy support we have been labled with? I cant see anything that would justify Heavy Support as such whatever Anet cosiders to be our heavy support could be removed and replaced. If its Last Rites, If its Vampiric Aura, whatever it is I think could happily be given up in exchange for decent damage or some level of actual group utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 The base class and Reaper suffer from the same problem, but with all of the support options also being on a smaller scale. One could potentially argue that using Epidemic is kind of an offensive support tool a la using it to clear ads or mechanics like Jade units at MO or shards at Xera, but for the most part the tools Necro has aside from that are either too weak to be worth bringing, or aren't universally applicable enough to justify using it as a support build. I also initially only talked about Scourge because that was the perceived point of the post, asking where the "Heavy Support" for Scourge is when it's still not really perceived as such (at least by the PvE community). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted January 7, 2018 Author Share Posted January 7, 2018 I personally Hate Epidemic, just because its potential Upside is so high it makes the rest of class suffer so much. It is potentially the most powerful skill there is, but I would happily give it up or see it changed to be a generally better and more well rounded class. Also it was Necro not scourge branded as a Heavy Support (Scoruge I coul understand being called a support, I wouldnt say heavy but okay it can support) Core Necro and Reaper....Yeah no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 It was Scourge branded as "Heavy support" and not necro as a whole, as per this Dev Comment from this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10778/anet-what-is-your-actual-intention-with-manifest-sand-shade > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > What I'm saying is: > > **If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.** > > If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go *up* from where it's currently at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted January 7, 2018 Author Share Posted January 7, 2018 Ah okay, thanks for the clarification, any idea why Reaper and Necro Numbers are so bad then, if scourge is 'Low' as it has support, why is Core Necro and Reaper well below? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 It could be any number of reasons, and as I'm not a member of the dev team I can only really postulate as to why. For Core I suspect it's just an issue of some of the traits being a bit too outdated and in need of reworking (as we've already been seeing with their changes to the Spite traitline). For Reaper, it could be anything from not wanting Reaper to have similar damage with it's new player friendly survivability (even when on a glass cannon build it can be very sutainable) to there not being many PvP/PvE skill splits up until recently (which is particularly important for Necro due to it being part of the main meta for WvW but being largely undesirable by many (not including me haha) in the PvE community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avigrus.2871 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 Really wish they would revert the Reaper changes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aslakh.3072 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 @Barnabus I'm pretty sure its because shroud acts similar to a second health pool. Many people who play other proffesions complain that if base necro or reaper were as good as them in anything it would be overpowered since they don't have a second health pool. Core and Reaper's Shroud from how they balance seems to be equivalent to scourges heavy support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 I agree its a second health pool in effect, and so I dont mind the charges to make it more offensive. But yeah you have a second Health pool on guardian. On Mesmer you get distort and on guardian easy access to aegis. So the 10k+ hit thats coming in both of those classes just ingore it, Necro you ignore it through tanking it with your second Hp bar... If you think of the value immunes/blocks could be then Some classes may as well have the equivilent of 3 Shrouds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I saw another thread complaining that the raid job imbalance (effectively a trinity) is caused by Arenanet designing certain elite professions with over-powered support capability and thought it an apt analysis. If Druid and Chrono support was more in line with Blood Magic' Vampiric Presence, I suspect all slots would become dps with incidental support. Then dps could be normalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Just freaking delete epidemic and give us necros way more dmg. Oh wait then every other class will yet again complain bout necro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltreez.6435 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > Just freaking delete epidemic and give us necros way more dmg. > > Oh wait then every other class will yet again complain bout necro Give my Reaper More mobility and an Entire Shroud rework... and im happy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aslakh.3072 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Deleting epidemic is not going to give power reaper more damage, and even if we got more condi damage for it we would lose it when pvp and wvw players complain we do too much damage, as necro is already used as one of the teamfight primary damage dealers. Deleting epidemic would merely achieve removing one of necros best and only utility skills that is also the only real justification for bringing one in high level pvm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 I know. But u see: Thats the way anet does things with necros. Players: We want more dmg for necro Anet: but necro has op defense shroud Players: its our only defense. And its definetly not op, since necro is lacking so much mobility Anet: we "buffed" your dmg Players: but you nerved our only defense to death and the dmg still doesnt compete with other classes Anet: ok lets even nerv the only fighting spec of necros and pretend that this aimes for every condition build And thats where we are right now. It took them 2 years to give power reaper some dmg. Dont want to know, when we will be able to properly play this whole class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbramare.9156 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > I know. But u see: > > Thats the way anet does things with necros. > > Players: We want more dmg for necro > Anet: but necro has op defense shroud > Players: its our only defense. And its definetly not op, since necro is lacking so much mobility > Anet: we "buffed" your dmg > Players: but you nerved our only defense to death and the dmg still doesnt compete with other classes > Anet: ok lets even nerv the only fighting spec of necros and pretend that this aimes for every condition build > > > And thats where we are right now. It took them 2 years to give power reaper some dmg. Dont want to know, when we will be able to properly play this whole class But some openworld player told me that necro is fine, so he must be right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > From QTFY on reddit > > "Nothing actually changed for Power Reaper, it's still useless for speed clears. Whereas condi reaper still relies on getting whirl finishers in chill fields and with the recent condi nerfs it falls far behind the other condi dps options. We still hope necromancer skills and traits get more synergy and reworks in the future, but are scared by anet’s perception of scourge since they called it a “heavy support” which we strongly disagree with." It is obvious from this statement that [qT] doesn't have a clue and shouldn't be afforded any credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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