Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > > The energy cost is too d*mn high to be counter by just a random CC that cancel the duration (of 6 or 10 sec - depends on the skill) and they won't cast again after the CC ... it's bad design in PVP and in PVE too . We all now that there's a lot of CC in pvp and ofc in raids and fractals too. So being targetable is way too bad as a "support" spec. > > > > > > > > > > No saying that most of the skills are not usefull at all for its energy cost... but we are used to that with legend skills (Jalis taunt , reflect on ventari, almost every skills except elite on mallyx ,...) > > > > > > > > Blame it on Guardian or on Darkrazor. > > > > > > > > In WvW you can stack Darkrazors, or line them up, over siege, choke points etc. The diameter is larger than two dodges. And with dismantle fortifications each summon potentially removes 60 stacks of stab. > > > > > > > > The issue is that > > > > > > > > * 3 Renegades could remove 180 stacks of stability from the zerg. 6 per target each second and Firebrand can't handle that. > > > > * 1 renegade could use Darkrazor as free siege disabler. > > > > * the majority of players are not Jalis/Herald and with be unable to deal with this > > > > > > > > Everything had to suffer because of that one skill and the one Guardian per party meta. > > > > > > > > Maybe Darkrazor needs to go. > > > > > > > > * Right now one flame ram will cancel Darkrazor for three seconds and then (if the summon isn't feared too far) it will do 3 more daze pulses. Two flame rams cancel it entirely. That seems balanced. > > > > > > > > * But now Icerazor has its dps split by flame rams, and by target limit they gave for the combo with soulcleave. While other classes have persistent aoes a ram couldn't counter and that already doo more damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Darkrazor needs to change. Remove the pulsing daze, which is stupid. Instead it should convert 1 condi to a boon per pulse, 3 pulses. > > > > > > I think Icerazor should change as well to something that is more useful. Maybe an initial 0.25 secdaze, then 3 pulses of AOE chill, effecting 5 targets. > > > > > > This way they can be made indestructible without issues. > > > > I disagree . They are just disabled too easily. > > > > It's better to preserve the daze by having pulses every other second than lose it entirely. And the Icerazor steal heals 9k with the elite > > > > Yet neither is of any use in sPvP and the heal is not of high relevance in PvE. So we will remain stuck in where we are, which is the worst position we can be in. That's ridiculous. They are capture point sized persistent aoes that body block projectiles. If you haven't found a use for them sPvP that has nothing to do with their design and more your imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milan.9035 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > > > The energy cost is too d*mn high to be counter by just a random CC that cancel the duration (of 6 or 10 sec - depends on the skill) and they won't cast again after the CC ... it's bad design in PVP and in PVE too . We all now that there's a lot of CC in pvp and ofc in raids and fractals too. So being targetable is way too bad as a "support" spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > No saying that most of the skills are not usefull at all for its energy cost... but we are used to that with legend skills (Jalis taunt , reflect on ventari, almost every skills except elite on mallyx ,...) > > > > > > > > > > Blame it on Guardian or on Darkrazor. > > > > > > > > > > In WvW you can stack Darkrazors, or line them up, over siege, choke points etc. The diameter is larger than two dodges. And with dismantle fortifications each summon potentially removes 60 stacks of stab. > > > > > > > > > > The issue is that > > > > > > > > > > * 3 Renegades could remove 180 stacks of stability from the zerg. 6 per target each second and Firebrand can't handle that. > > > > > * 1 renegade could use Darkrazor as free siege disabler. > > > > > * the majority of players are not Jalis/Herald and with be unable to deal with this > > > > > > > > > > Everything had to suffer because of that one skill and the one Guardian per party meta. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe Darkrazor needs to go. > > > > > > > > > > * Right now one flame ram will cancel Darkrazor for three seconds and then (if the summon isn't feared too far) it will do 3 more daze pulses. Two flame rams cancel it entirely. That seems balanced. > > > > > > > > > > * But now Icerazor has its dps split by flame rams, and by target limit they gave for the combo with soulcleave. While other classes have persistent aoes a ram couldn't counter and that already doo more damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Darkrazor needs to change. Remove the pulsing daze, which is stupid. Instead it should convert 1 condi to a boon per pulse, 3 pulses. > > > > > > > > I think Icerazor should change as well to something that is more useful. Maybe an initial 0.25 secdaze, then 3 pulses of AOE chill, effecting 5 targets. > > > > > > > > This way they can be made indestructible without issues. > > > > > > I disagree . They are just disabled too easily. > > > > > > It's better to preserve the daze by having pulses every other second than lose it entirely. And the Icerazor steal heals 9k with the elite > > > > > > > Yet neither is of any use in sPvP and the heal is not of high relevance in PvE. So we will remain stuck in where we are, which is the worst position we can be in. > > That's ridiculous. They are capture point sized persistent aoes that body block projectiles. If you haven't found a use for them sPvP that has nothing to do with their design and more your imagination. Lol. I dont think you ever played spvp. Its rare they live longer than thier cast time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > > > The energy cost is too d*mn high to be counter by just a random CC that cancel the duration (of 6 or 10 sec - depends on the skill) and they won't cast again after the CC ... it's bad design in PVP and in PVE too . We all now that there's a lot of CC in pvp and ofc in raids and fractals too. So being targetable is way too bad as a "support" spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > No saying that most of the skills are not usefull at all for its energy cost... but we are used to that with legend skills (Jalis taunt , reflect on ventari, almost every skills except elite on mallyx ,...) > > > > > > > > > > Blame it on Guardian or on Darkrazor. > > > > > > > > > > In WvW you can stack Darkrazors, or line them up, over siege, choke points etc. The diameter is larger than two dodges. And with dismantle fortifications each summon potentially removes 60 stacks of stab. > > > > > > > > > > The issue is that > > > > > > > > > > * 3 Renegades could remove 180 stacks of stability from the zerg. 6 per target each second and Firebrand can't handle that. > > > > > * 1 renegade could use Darkrazor as free siege disabler. > > > > > * the majority of players are not Jalis/Herald and with be unable to deal with this > > > > > > > > > > Everything had to suffer because of that one skill and the one Guardian per party meta. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe Darkrazor needs to go. > > > > > > > > > > * Right now one flame ram will cancel Darkrazor for three seconds and then (if the summon isn't feared too far) it will do 3 more daze pulses. Two flame rams cancel it entirely. That seems balanced. > > > > > > > > > > * But now Icerazor has its dps split by flame rams, and by target limit they gave for the combo with soulcleave. While other classes have persistent aoes a ram couldn't counter and that already doo more damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Darkrazor needs to change. Remove the pulsing daze, which is stupid. Instead it should convert 1 condi to a boon per pulse, 3 pulses. > > > > > > > > I think Icerazor should change as well to something that is more useful. Maybe an initial 0.25 secdaze, then 3 pulses of AOE chill, effecting 5 targets. > > > > > > > > This way they can be made indestructible without issues. > > > > > > I disagree . They are just disabled too easily. > > > > > > It's better to preserve the daze by having pulses every other second than lose it entirely. And the Icerazor steal heals 9k with the elite > > > > > > > Yet neither is of any use in sPvP and the heal is not of high relevance in PvE. So we will remain stuck in where we are, which is the worst position we can be in. > > That's ridiculous. They are capture point sized persistent aoes that body block projectiles. If you haven't found a use for them sPvP that has nothing to do with their design and more your imagination. lol. I am almost certain you have not played renegade in sPvP at all. And there is a reason no one does (at least after they tried and failed miserably). And this thread/poll which you started started has a 78% that the summons should not be targeted. Keep living in lala land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"ArthurDent.9538" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > The energy cost is too d*mn high to be counter by just a random CC that cancel the duration (of 6 or 10 sec - depends on the skill) and they won't cast again after the CC ... it's bad design in PVP and in PVE too . We all now that there's a lot of CC in pvp and ofc in raids and fractals too. So being targetable is way too bad as a "support" spec. > > > > > > No saying that most of the skills are not usefull at all for its energy cost... but we are used to that with legend skills (Jalis taunt , reflect on ventari, almost every skills except elite on mallyx ,...) > > > > Blame it on Guardian or on Darkrazor. > > > > In WvW you can stack Darkrazors, or line them up, over siege, choke points etc. The diameter is larger than two dodges. And with dismantle fortifications each summon potentially removes 60 stacks of stab. > > > > The issue is that > > > > * 3 Renegades could remove 180 stacks of stability from the zerg. 6 per target each second and Firebrand can't handle that. > > * 1 renegade could use Darkrazor as free siege disabler. > > * the majority of players are not Jalis/Herald and with be unable to deal with this > > > > Everything had to suffer because of that one skill and the one Guardian per party meta. > > > > Maybe Darkrazor needs to go. > > > > * Right now one flame ram will cancel Darkrazor for three seconds and then (if the summon isn't feared too far) it will do 3 more daze pulses. Two flame rams cancel it entirely. That seems balanced. > > > > * But now Icerazor has its dps split by flame rams, and by target limit they gave for the combo with soulcleave. While other classes have persistent aoes a ram couldn't counter and that already doo more damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing stacks of stab 1 at a time or 2 at a time with the grand-master trait is really not very strong considering that curses scourge and winds of disenchantment will simply remove all stab in one go and either corrupt it straight to fear or prevent reapplication for the duration of the bubble. And that is before considering how fast darkrazor will die to random cleave. Actually, that's exactly why it's very strong. You just compared a utility skill to a 90 cd elite combined with a corruption burst. * Firebrand has access to 34 aoe stacks of stability. 24 without hallowed grounds. It takes 42.5 seconds for everything to reset. * Darkrazor aoe rips 12 stacks. It takes 9-18 seconds for Darkrazor to reset depending on alacrity and the energy pool. * This means renegades have access to a min, max, average of 28, 56, 42 aoe stability rips for every time a Firebrands uses ALL of the stability their class has access to. * obviously a Firebrand can stagger application, and leave the field, just as they can do with winds, but a Renegade can also stagger placement. * a Spellbreaker isn't going to stack winds in a choke point. And even if they wanted to they couldn't do it from range. Moreover, a Firebrand can go through all of their stability twice before winds come off cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > The energy cost is too d*mn high to be counter by just a random CC that cancel the duration (of 6 or 10 sec - depends on the skill) and they won't cast again after the CC ... it's bad design in PVP and in PVE too . We all now that there's a lot of CC in pvp and ofc in raids and fractals too. So being targetable is way too bad as a "support" spec. > > > > > > > > No saying that most of the skills are not usefull at all for its energy cost... but we are used to that with legend skills (Jalis taunt , reflect on ventari, almost every skills except elite on mallyx ,...) > > > > > > Blame it on Guardian or on Darkrazor. > > > > > > In WvW you can stack Darkrazors, or line them up, over siege, choke points etc. The diameter is larger than two dodges. And with dismantle fortifications each summon potentially removes 60 stacks of stab. > > > > > > The issue is that > > > > > > * 3 Renegades could remove 180 stacks of stability from the zerg. 6 per target each second and Firebrand can't handle that. > > > * 1 renegade could use Darkrazor as free siege disabler. > > > * the majority of players are not Jalis/Herald and with be unable to deal with this > > > > > > Everything had to suffer because of that one skill and the one Guardian per party meta. > > > > > > Maybe Darkrazor needs to go. > > > > > > * Right now one flame ram will cancel Darkrazor for three seconds and then (if the summon isn't feared too far) it will do 3 more daze pulses. Two flame rams cancel it entirely. That seems balanced. > > > > > > * But now Icerazor has its dps split by flame rams, and by target limit they gave for the combo with soulcleave. While other classes have persistent aoes a ram couldn't counter and that already doo more damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing stacks of stab 1 at a time or 2 at a time with the grand-master trait is really not very strong considering that curses scourge and winds of disenchantment will simply remove all stab in one go and either corrupt it straight to fear or prevent reapplication for the duration of the bubble. And that is before considering how fast darkrazor will die to random cleave. > > Actually, that's exactly why it's very strong. You just compared a utility skill to a 90 cd elite combined with a corruption burst. > > * Firebrand has access to 34 aoe stacks of stability. 24 without hallowed grounds. It takes 42.5 seconds for everything to reset. > * Darkrazor aoe rips 12 stacks. It takes 9-18 seconds for Darkrazor to reset depending on alacrity and the energy pool. > * This means renegades have access to a min, max, average of 28, 56, 42 aoe stability rips for every time a Firebrands uses ALL of the stability their class has access to. > * obviously a Firebrand can stagger application, and leave the field, just as they can do with winds, but a Renegade can also stagger placement. > * and a Spellbreaker isn't going to stack winds in a choke point. > > Winds may have a 90 second cooldown vs. 12sec + 30 energy, but the difference is that winds actually works, while darkrazor just dies. Also traited nefarious favor is a 6.4 second cool-down aoe boon corruption from shades which also can't be destroyed which makes it better stab ripper in almost every situation compared to darkrazor. I seriously can't comprehend how you think darkrazor is actually ripping "60 stacks of stab" in a zerg when it dies to 2 or 3 auto attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Milan.9035" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > > > > The energy cost is too d*mn high to be counter by just a random CC that cancel the duration (of 6 or 10 sec - depends on the skill) and they won't cast again after the CC ... it's bad design in PVP and in PVE too . We all now that there's a lot of CC in pvp and ofc in raids and fractals too. So being targetable is way too bad as a "support" spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No saying that most of the skills are not usefull at all for its energy cost... but we are used to that with legend skills (Jalis taunt , reflect on ventari, almost every skills except elite on mallyx ,...) > > > > > > > > > > > > Blame it on Guardian or on Darkrazor. > > > > > > > > > > > > In WvW you can stack Darkrazors, or line them up, over siege, choke points etc. The diameter is larger than two dodges. And with dismantle fortifications each summon potentially removes 60 stacks of stab. > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is that > > > > > > > > > > > > * 3 Renegades could remove 180 stacks of stability from the zerg. 6 per target each second and Firebrand can't handle that. > > > > > > * 1 renegade could use Darkrazor as free siege disabler. > > > > > > * the majority of players are not Jalis/Herald and with be unable to deal with this > > > > > > > > > > > > Everything had to suffer because of that one skill and the one Guardian per party meta. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe Darkrazor needs to go. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Right now one flame ram will cancel Darkrazor for three seconds and then (if the summon isn't feared too far) it will do 3 more daze pulses. Two flame rams cancel it entirely. That seems balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > * But now Icerazor has its dps split by flame rams, and by target limit they gave for the combo with soulcleave. While other classes have persistent aoes a ram couldn't counter and that already doo more damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Darkrazor needs to change. Remove the pulsing daze, which is stupid. Instead it should convert 1 condi to a boon per pulse, 3 pulses. > > > > > > > > > > I think Icerazor should change as well to something that is more useful. Maybe an initial 0.25 secdaze, then 3 pulses of AOE chill, effecting 5 targets. > > > > > > > > > > This way they can be made indestructible without issues. > > > > > > > > I disagree . They are just disabled too easily. > > > > > > > > It's better to preserve the daze by having pulses every other second than lose it entirely. And the Icerazor steal heals 9k with the elite > > > > > > > > > > Yet neither is of any use in sPvP and the heal is not of high relevance in PvE. So we will remain stuck in where we are, which is the worst position we can be in. > > > > That's ridiculous. They are capture point sized persistent aoes that body block projectiles. If you haven't found a use for them sPvP that has nothing to do with their design and more your imagination. > > Lol. I dont think you ever played spvp. Its rare they live longer than thier cast time. I rarely call out a learn to play moment, but this takes exception. This thread was about untargetability as a buff to WvW because the disables and damage were negating the spec. I agree with disables being a problem in sPvP, but it is not unplayable. I have played ventari/renegade and shiro/renegade with great success . It is not meta. And as much I wish it were I am not going to lie and say summons are insta dying in sPvP. They just aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"ArthurDent.9538" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > > The energy cost is too d*mn high to be counter by just a random CC that cancel the duration (of 6 or 10 sec - depends on the skill) and they won't cast again after the CC ... it's bad design in PVP and in PVE too . We all now that there's a lot of CC in pvp and ofc in raids and fractals too. So being targetable is way too bad as a "support" spec. > > > > > > > > > > No saying that most of the skills are not usefull at all for its energy cost... but we are used to that with legend skills (Jalis taunt , reflect on ventari, almost every skills except elite on mallyx ,...) > > > > > > > > Blame it on Guardian or on Darkrazor. > > > > > > > > In WvW you can stack Darkrazors, or line them up, over siege, choke points etc. The diameter is larger than two dodges. And with dismantle fortifications each summon potentially removes 60 stacks of stab. > > > > > > > > The issue is that > > > > > > > > * 3 Renegades could remove 180 stacks of stability from the zerg. 6 per target each second and Firebrand can't handle that. > > > > * 1 renegade could use Darkrazor as free siege disabler. > > > > * the majority of players are not Jalis/Herald and with be unable to deal with this > > > > > > > > Everything had to suffer because of that one skill and the one Guardian per party meta. > > > > > > > > Maybe Darkrazor needs to go. > > > > > > > > * Right now one flame ram will cancel Darkrazor for three seconds and then (if the summon isn't feared too far) it will do 3 more daze pulses. Two flame rams cancel it entirely. That seems balanced. > > > > > > > > * But now Icerazor has its dps split by flame rams, and by target limit they gave for the combo with soulcleave. While other classes have persistent aoes a ram couldn't counter and that already doo more damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing stacks of stab 1 at a time or 2 at a time with the grand-master trait is really not very strong considering that curses scourge and winds of disenchantment will simply remove all stab in one go and either corrupt it straight to fear or prevent reapplication for the duration of the bubble. And that is before considering how fast darkrazor will die to random cleave. > > > > Actually, that's exactly why it's very strong. You just compared a utility skill to a 90 cd elite combined with a corruption burst. > > > > * Firebrand has access to 34 aoe stacks of stability. 24 without hallowed grounds. It takes 42.5 seconds for everything to reset. > > * Darkrazor aoe rips 12 stacks. It takes 9-18 seconds for Darkrazor to reset depending on alacrity and the energy pool. > > * This means renegades have access to a min, max, average of 28, 56, 42 aoe stability rips for every time a Firebrands uses ALL of the stability their class has access to. > > * obviously a Firebrand can stagger application, and leave the field, just as they can do with winds, but a Renegade can also stagger placement. > > * and a Spellbreaker isn't going to stack winds in a choke point. > > > > > > Winds may have a 90 second cooldown vs. 12sec + 30 energy, but the difference is that winds actually works, while darkrazor just dies. Also traited nefarious favor is a 6.4 second cool-down aoe boon corruption from shades which also can't be destroyed which makes it better stab ripper in almost every situation compared to darkrazor. I seriously can't comprehend how you think darkrazor is actually ripping "60 stacks of stab" in a zerg when it dies to 2 or 3 auto attacks. Did you start commenting in this thread without reading the OP? The topic is making summons untargetable. Obviously, the current darkrazor isn't capable of much in WvW. The question is if they kept the current design and made them untargetable (so it couldn't be attacked at all), how strong would they be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ertrak.9506 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > And, since WvW uses PvE ruling, it means that summons would be able to actually do something before getting killed. > > WvW does not use PvE damage reduction for summons. News to me. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > > And, since WvW uses PvE ruling, it means that summons would be able to actually do something before getting killed. > > > > WvW does not use PvE damage reduction for summons. > > News to me. Thanks for the info. It's because of siege. It has a 50 target cap which would be rendered useless by just a few minion mancers. Not to mention the stress it would put on the servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianTheAngelic.7054 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 "Darkrazor" has existed since May 2017 and hasn't greatly influenced the WvW meta in any way. The concerns over Darkrazor are unfounded. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Choking_Gas "This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmageddonAsh.6430 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > "Darkrazor" has existed since May 2017 and hasn't greatly influenced the WvW meta in any way. The concerns over Darkrazor are unfounded. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Choking_Gas > > "This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse." I think that is for several reasons, the high poison requirement in a HEAVY condi removal meta makes it useless and it being on a Shortbow Thief, not exactly a great weapon or class for zergging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Don't make summon untargetable, give them a breakbar and they disappear if you destroy the breakbar. Those are skills, if one want to stop a skill one should have to be ready to use a cc, not cheap damages. Breakbars have been introduced in this game since HoT and anet have still to make use of them outside of Environment content, seriously, that's a waste of potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > "Darkrazor" has existed since May 2017 and hasn't greatly influenced the WvW meta in any way. The concerns over Darkrazor are unfounded. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Choking_Gas > > "This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse." > Are you serious? Did you even read the trait? Because of the threshold the only way to get 12 aoe rips is to spam it four times. And 16 initiative ≠ 12 cd + 30 energy. Adding in venoms is more resources, and you can't auto attack a zerg with dagger. And even then they nerfed the daze interval in PvP. So those four casts do a total of 2 aoe rips at most instead of 12. You just added more evidence why Darkrazor should never be untargetable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Because of the threshold the only way to get 12 aoe rips is to spam it four times. And 16 initiative ≠ 12 cd + 30 energy. Adding in venoms is more resources, and you can't auto attack a zerg with dagger. > > And even then they nerfed the daze interval in PvP. So those four casts do a total of 2 aoe rips at most instead of 12. Because yes, Thieves are **the** only source of poison, and it absolutely never happens that Choking Gas immediately goes into daze mode. No no. Never. Absolutely. See, this makes sense though, I get it: If there are **other** summons around, make Darkrazor untargetable. That's sort-of the equivalent of that, weak and counter-able on its own, strong when applied with friends around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianTheAngelic.7054 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > "Darkrazor" has existed since May 2017 and hasn't greatly influenced the WvW meta in any way. The concerns over Darkrazor are unfounded. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Choking_Gas > > > > "This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse." > > > > Are you serious? Did you even read the trait? > > Because of the threshold the only way to get 12 aoe rips is to spam it four times. And 16 initiative ≠ 12 cd + 30 energy. Adding in venoms is more resources, and you can't auto attack a zerg with dagger. > > And even then they nerfed the daze interval in PvP. So those four casts do a total of 2 aoe rips at most instead of 12. > > You just added more evidence why Darkrazor should never be untargetable. Sure, it was nerfed in pvp, but it wasn't nerfed in wvw because it's not an issue there. To get Darkrazor you have to take Kalla and pretty much all of Kalla's skills are useless in pvp/wvw, even if untargetable, with the exception of Darkrazor. They're all highly situational and to be anywhere near effective require you or your enemy to stand in them the entire time. Breakrazor is okay, but only with healing power. Razorclaw is pretty much useless outside of group pve. Icerazor is horribly meh and Mallyx's Unyielding Anguish is pretty much the same thing and 10x more effective at what it does. Soulcleave is meh. I don't see Kalla being brought in WvW zerging even with untargetable summons when the rest of its kit is relatively unexceptional, especially when Mallyx, Jalis, Ventari (and even Glint) all exist. If it's a problem in pvp they can give it some sort of nerf. It's worth noting though that Darkrazor ONLY dazes and brings middling damage. It also has a 3/4th second cast time and you have to be pretty damn close to your opponents (600) to hit them with it. Choking gas however has 900 range, is 1/2 cast time, is a poison field, pulses power damage, pulses poison (which on condi thief is potent), and then pulses dazes, and you can stack these fields. So it's understandable why it got nerfed in pvp. regardless, even if they don't make the summons untargetable, they BARE MINIMUM need 2-4 stacks of stability on them on cast and they all need double or triple health. They all also need cast time reductions down to 1/2, heal and elite need cost reductions down to 5 energy, razorclaw needs some sort of small additional effect, like giving fury to the renegade or something or maybe an additional breakstun, and icerazor likely needs to have small aoe 3 target explosions on his bolts similar to the shortbow autos. I would make all of these changes and then reevaluate it after that. I'm still not sure honestly if even all of these changes would be enough to make Kalla useful in pvp/wvw settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Skywalker.5674 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Well I was thinking to have Icerazor make the crits of allied players apply chill and Razorclaw to taunt and maybe apply vuln - so you can make a nice combo with Darkrazor and staff 5/axe 5+ sword auto. Edit:in all seriousness why does Kala and shortbow have to apply bleeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flauvious.6195 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff. > > > > > > If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate. > > > > > > But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate. > > > > > > An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds. > > > > renegade spirits have kitten effects though. > > > > In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead. > > > > They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period. > > > > > > > > > > I think saying that Renegade is not designed for PvP gives it too much credit. I would say that renegade as a whole was slammed randomly together at the last minute. There was no "design." Compare it with FB, Weaver, mirage or any other elite really, and you can see the level of attention these elite received is light years ahead of renegade. > > Just FB as an example. Fairly detailed back ground that ties into Elona. Tomes that synergies with support role in sPvP. Interesting condi design between tomes and weapons, that allows flexibility between condi or hybrid. It has meta build (over performing actually) in sPvP and a condi build that works well in PvE without 10 years ramp-up. It works good in every PvE mode, from open world PvE to raids. > > Renegade? The entire elite is nothing more than condi damage modifier in PvE to the existing condi build pre-PoF. Set of none synergistic utilities and F-skills, that are only valuable in raid scenarios. In my opinion, it is without a doubt the worst of all 18 elites (Dead eye gives it some completion though). > > For real, you get 5 skills that place a flimsy charr who does a thing in a circle, a very basic thing like here's small bleed or here's one that does a little damage and applies vulnerability. Since this is obviously nothing, here's some completely random f skills that have nothing to do with each other or the rest of your kit, including one that just slaps on alacrity in a lazy attempt to allow you to be a chrono substitute. Top it off with a unique buff that just grants you whatever stats for any damage for Insta viability. Comparing this to something as intricate as weaver or holosmith is just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Because of the threshold the only way to get 12 aoe rips is to spam it four times. And 16 initiative ≠ 12 cd + 30 energy. Adding in venoms is more resources, and you can't auto attack a zerg with dagger. > > > > And even then they nerfed the daze interval in PvP. So those four casts do a total of 2 aoe rips at most instead of 12. > > Because yes, Thieves are **the** only source of poison, and it absolutely never happens that Choking Gas immediately goes into daze mode. No no. Never. Absolutely. > > See, this makes sense though, I get it: If there are **other** summons around, make Darkrazor untargetable. That's sort-of the equivalent of that, weak and counter-able on its own, strong when applied with friends around! You are reminding me why I didn't want this post in the Revenant subforum. Go play https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Deadeye_-_Deadbow_Condi then revaluate everything you just said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > > "Darkrazor" has existed since May 2017 and hasn't greatly influenced the WvW meta in any way. The concerns over Darkrazor are unfounded. > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Choking_Gas > > > > > > "This skill now briefly dazes foes with 5 or more stacks of poison every pulse." > > > > > > > Are you serious? Did you even read the trait? > > > > Because of the threshold the only way to get 12 aoe rips is to spam it four times. And 16 initiative ≠ 12 cd + 30 energy. Adding in venoms is more resources, and you can't auto attack a zerg with dagger. > > > > And even then they nerfed the daze interval in PvP. So those four casts do a total of 2 aoe rips at most instead of 12. > > > > You just added more evidence why Darkrazor should never be untargetable. > Sure, it was nerfed in pvp, but it wasn't nerfed in wvw because it's not an issue there. It's not an issue because of the threshold, and group cleanse is not as much of a thing in PvP. > regardless, even if they don't make the summons untargetable, they BARE MINIMUM need 2-4 stacks of stability on them on cast and they all need double or triple health. Can't do that. Then darkrazor can't be stopped by flame rams. You could leave gate for half a second, cast it, then go back in. You can't do that with choking gas and get similar results. Or with the aoes that do damage but don't disable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Can't do that. Then darkrazor can't be stopped by flame rams. You could leave gate for half a second, cast it, then go back in. You can't do that with choking gas and get similar results. Or with the aoes that do damage but don't disable. Well this one disables but factually does no damage, same with the whole spec. You do understand the spec has to have **something** going for it, yes? Anything? Furthermore, why are we debating how Darkrazor works **in WvW**? Ignoring what a fraction of players engages in PvP compared to PvE (and hence balance should primarily be driven by PvE at all times, where any change can do the largest amount of good), why not split the skill if it is such a big problem? Because , much as you can argue that an untargetable Darkrazor would be OP, it'd **still** be better for overall game health than what we have now. With the approach taken to these summons - and I like having to manage pets, I enjoyed my Demolock a lot before pets started to ignore PvE mechanics and AoEs - they are extremely binary, strong if only one target is around and it cannot freely move, but killed *before they even start their animations* when 3+ players or one AE class are around. That's... not health design. Independent of context. I mean sure, if the spec was built as a 1v1 duelling spec, nice way to enforce that design. Only it isn't, evidence being for example the damage output which makes Ventari look threatening an the complete lack of domination potential *other* than forcing the enemy to leave the zone around Darkrazor. So, what would be better design? Well as always, a sensible solution would be that **pets can only be hit while they're being targetted**. Importantly this does leave them open to cleave/AoE skills, but only if the attacker invests the effort of targeting the pet. Given the warband's incredibly low HP which makes Phantasms seem tanky, that's not really a problem, click once, summon immediately gone. But it also means Kalla can, as the spec seems to want to do, "hide" behind the pets, as they make the enemy want to interact with them. At the same time, it solves the PvE problem more elegantly than the current AoE immunity, because the same rule can be applied instead. Less special cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianTheAngelic.7054 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 > Can't do that. Then darkrazor can't be stopped by flame rams. You could leave gate for half a second, cast it, then go back in. You can't do that with choking gas and get similar results. Or with the aoes that do damage but don't disable. You actually can do it with choking gas, it just requires 2+ thieves to make it actually effective. Also choking gas potentially does actual damage as well, unlike darkrazor. Plus you can also cast choking gas from the top of the tower which you can't do with darkrazor since all of Kalla's summons have no valid path bullshit, so no need to even expose yourself to the melee part of the zerg to cast it. Even if they gave it stability and double or triple life with my suggestion it wouldn't be OP. It would still get super cleaved down by any group (even small 3+ groups). It still has a cooldown and a high energy cost. My suggestion would be a good starting point to attempt to make kalla marginally useful outside of pve. On top of all that, there are dozens of other things that make flame rams less useful as well which is why almost every commander I've seen usually opts to use catapults instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > Can't do that. Then darkrazor can't be stopped by flame rams. You could leave gate for half a second, cast it, then go back in. You can't do that with choking gas and get similar results. Or with the aoes that do damage but don't disable. > > You actually can do it with choking gas, it just requires 2+ thieves to make it actually effective. Also choking gas potentially does actual damage as well, unlike darkrazor. Don't bring up multiple sources to pull this off, it just hurts your argument. I like Ventari but I don't expect them to give it reflection just because WvW Firebrands can cycle Chapter 3: Valiant Bulwark and/or Wall of Reflection. > Plus you can also cast choking gas from the top of the tower which you can't do with darkrazor since all of Kalla's summons have no valid path kitten... So thats why they went with targetable summons! This poll was so oblivious. Thank you for mentioning the top of towers. ## The summons are being balanced by their radius. 360 radius is the size of many capture points and the range of Flame Rams. Why **wouldn't** the kalla summons be vulnerable and have pathing issues? The only way to reliably and safely hit a correctly placed Ram is to use siege. * Everyone with 360 pbAoEs has to be in range of the ram/cleave to strike without leaving a tower. * Everyone with ranged 360 aoes has longer cooldowns and/or pathing issues that can obstruct the skill. Shades have max 300 radius so they were given spammy intangible ranged aoe. Then wall bombing became a problem and the Devs gave them the Renegade treatment but instead of pathing they went with LoS. The only way we will get untargetability is a nerf to radius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianTheAngelic.7054 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 >Don't bring up multiple sources to pull this off, it just hurts your argument. I like Ventari but I don't expect them to give it reflection just because WvW Firebrands can >cycle Chapter 3: Valiant Bulwark and/or Wall of Reflection. Multiple sources are absolutely valid to bring up as they should be considered when coming up with strategies. There's a reason you have multiple FBs and stability stackers and such in a zerg; you need multiple sources to achieve full/optimal coverage. As such, consider multiple sources of CC and damage being thrown at Kalla's summons. Note that I'm not suggesting them become untargettable. If you read my suggestions it would be to add a few stacks of stab/more health to the summons as it's the logical place to start with balancing these. Even with multiple stability stacks Darkrazor and all his friends will still get ripped apart by small to large groups of players. > So thats why they went with targetable summons! This poll was so oblivious. Thank you for mentioning the top of towers. > > ## The summons are being balanced by their radius. > > 360 radius is the size of many capture points and the range of Flame Rams. Why **wouldn't** the kalla summons be vulnerable and have pathing issues? > > The only way to reliably and safely hit a correctly placed Ram is to use siege. > * Everyone with 360 pbAoEs has to be in range of the ram/cleave to strike without leaving a tower. > * Everyone with ranged 360 aoes has longer cooldowns and/or pathing issues that can obstruct the skill. > > Shades have max 300 radius so they were given spammy intangible ranged aoe. Then wall bombing became a problem and the Devs gave them the Renegade treatment but instead of pathing they went with LoS. > > The only way we will get untargetability is a nerf to radius. 1) I'll ask again, who uses rams nowadays!? They've always been an inferior choice to just about every other form of siege and the last time I saw someone using them as their main form it was ages ago 2) my suggestions aren't to make them untargetable, but to give them a few stacks of stability (aka a fighting chance to actually be useful) 3) my suggestions wouldn't make darkrazor broken as they still have no valid path/health bar/chance to be CCed/it still does practically 0 damage/has absolutely atrocious casting range (600) meaning you have to be pretty damn close Fact: All of kalla's skills in their current forms will always be useless unless they receive some sort of change that helps make them semi-immune/immune to CC and quick death Fact: giving them a couple stacks of stability would be a good start to making them more usable outside of pve Fact: Darkrazor can be nerfed in wvw/pvp if it ends up being too strong Fact: Actually try using Kalla/Darkrazor in wvw/pvp (I have, extensively!) and you'll see it's super gimmicky at best and completely useless at worst and that even with stability and/or immunity it would still need something else to make it actually useful and/or meta **WvW is an inherently unbalanced game mode** and always will be due to the fact that you have player number imbalances and damage/effects from dozens of different sources all at the same time. **It will never be balanced the way WvWers want it to be balanced because it CAN'T be balanced due to the way the game mode works.** **To not make important changes to an entire elite spec that is completely useless in 2/3rds of the entire game due to concerns over Darkrazor's interaction with flame ram siege is ludicrous** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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