Mirage Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

> > >

> > > I haven't heard those complaints and I've been on this forum near religiously since it came up this month.

> >

> > Dont even know what u want to tell me with this....

> >

> > Ill give u an example

> > "Jaunt with 400 Range is really bad , doenst even gets u out of meele range" + "Loosing dode roll is really bad , we needed the 300 units to get out of meele range".

> > Those things come from one Side.

>

> Ok, but which of those complaints are:

> * ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters

> * teleports are useless

 

The complains were ; Pve is the only content that matters. Teleports are useless cause they dont add damage in PvE.

I wont roll down to every thread i visited, and for sure i can't proof private talking with friends or players i met, but those examples are things which i hear in the last days.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Mikkel.8427 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> >It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone.

> >

>

> Deceptive Evasion only produces a clone if you're already in combat.... You're combo will not work as an 'Opening Burst'.

>

>

 

100% right , sometimes i forget about it. Well it can still be pulled out during a fight, which is a good thing in my opinion

 

[Ghin.1653]

With regards to Distortion above, "whenever you grant yourself Distortion" so not when your distorted period, just on the initial gain same as mirage cloak.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> Speed of Sand should increase condition damage on targets with bleeding by 10%.

>

> Nomad's Endurance should trigger from mirage cloak.

>

> Riddle of Sand no longer has the shatter requirement. The confusion applies on every ambush.

>

> There, Mirage is now significantly less terrible in PvE.

>

> Reduce Signet of Humility's cooldown to 60 seconds in PvE only. Jaunt now also applies 6 stacks of torment and confusion for 8 seconds, in PvE only.

>

> The deception utilities are unsalvageable in PvE, a pity since the only good mesmer utilities in PvE are signet of inspiration and chronomancer wells.

>

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> > > >

> > > > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

> > >

> > > As if people play 3/3 of a game format. By that brilliant logic it would be fine if PvE didn't exist at all, since you can play two formats you have zero interest in.

> >

> > Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

>

>

> That's easy to say when the new toy that changes how you've been playing for the last 3 years fits perfectly with your preferred pvp format.

>

> In fact, pvp players benefited just as much from chrono as pve players have. Why can't pve players now benefit from mirage just as much as PvP players can?

>

> Why is it OK for a spec to be PvP only yet when a spec is garbage in PvE and only good in PvE, you people would be up in arms.

>

> Mesmer has a single viable PvE spec, chronomancer boonbot. That's it. PvP players have condi mesmer, power shatter mesmer, interrupt mesmer. Build variety is a thing in PvP, yet PvE players get left out in the cold.

 

Power Mesmer , condi mesmer , boonbot chrono. I wouldn't be upset if mirrage is PvE focused only, cause i understand that specialization doesn't mean ; be able to be good at everything, but rather ; be able to be really good in certain situations. And i'm still pretty sure mirrage will replace condi mesmer in terms of raw dmg output more then most of u ppl think. It's sad when ppl don't do any kind of Maths.

 

Since im low on budget right now, i won't have the joy to pull mirrage out tomorrow, so im just waiting for the first benchmark videos. For now, i will go sleep. Gn8 everyone.

[Esplen.3940]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> Power Mesmer , condi mesmer , boonbot chrono. I wouldn't be upset if mirrage is PvE focused only, cause i understand that specialization doesn't mean ; be able to be good at everything, but rather ; be able to be really good in certain situations. **And i'm still pretty sure mirrage will replace condi mesmer in terms of raw dmg output more then most of u ppl think. It's sad when ppl don't do any kind of Maths.**

>

> Since im low on budget right now, i won't have the joy to pull mirrage out tomorrow, so im just waiting for the first benchmark videos. For now, i will go sleep. Gn8 everyone.

 

Says the person who doesn't use math when posting that things are good. :/

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > Power Mesmer , condi mesmer , boonbot chrono. I wouldn't be upset if mirrage is PvE focused only, cause i understand that specialization doesn't mean ; be able to be good at everything, but rather ; be able to be really good in certain situations. **And i'm still pretty sure mirrage will replace condi mesmer in terms of raw dmg output more then most of u ppl think. It's sad when ppl don't do any kind of Maths.**

> >

> > Since im low on budget right now, i won't have the joy to pull mirrage out tomorrow, so im just waiting for the first benchmark videos. For now, i will go sleep. Gn8 everyone.

>

> Says the person who doesn't use math when posting that things are good. :/

 

U remember the guy who said mirrage would do roughly 30-32k dps?

I took my time and went through the full rotation, with raid buffs, vulnerabilty etc. Guess which number i achived in the end ?

And believe me ; if im 180° wrong with this, it's no problem for me to say i did a mistake.

[Zenith.7301]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > > >

> > > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> > >

> > > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

> >

> > As if people play 3/3 of a game format. By that brilliant logic it would be fine if PvE didn't exist at all, since you can play two formats you have zero interest in.

>

> Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

 

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > Speed of Sand should increase condition damage on targets with bleeding by 10%.

> >

> > Nomad's Endurance should trigger from mirage cloak.

> >

> > Riddle of Sand no longer has the shatter requirement. The confusion applies on every ambush.

> >

> > There, Mirage is now significantly less terrible in PvE.

> >

> > Reduce Signet of Humility's cooldown to 60 seconds in PvE only. Jaunt now also applies 6 stacks of torment and confusion for 8 seconds, in PvE only.

> >

> > The deception utilities are unsalvageable in PvE, a pity since the only good mesmer utilities in PvE are signet of inspiration and chronomancer wells.

> >

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

> > > >

> > > > As if people play 3/3 of a game format. By that brilliant logic it would be fine if PvE didn't exist at all, since you can play two formats you have zero interest in.

> > >

> > > Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

> >

> >

> > That's easy to say when the new toy that changes how you've been playing for the last 3 years fits perfectly with your preferred pvp format.

> >

> > In fact, pvp players benefited just as much from chrono as pve players have. Why can't pve players now benefit from mirage just as much as PvP players can?

> >

> > Why is it OK for a spec to be PvP only yet when a spec is garbage in PvE and only good in PvE, you people would be up in arms.

> >

> > Mesmer has a single viable PvE spec, chronomancer boonbot. That's it. PvP players have condi mesmer, power shatter mesmer, interrupt mesmer. Build variety is a thing in PvP, yet PvE players get left out in the cold.

>

> Power Mesmer , condi mesmer , boonbot chrono. I wouldn't be upset if mirrage is PvE focused only, cause i understand that specialization doesn't mean ; be able to be good at everything, but rather ; be able to be really good in certain situations. And i'm still pretty sure mirrage will replace condi mesmer in terms of raw dmg output more then most of u ppl think. It's sad when ppl don't do any kind of Maths.

>

> Since im low on budget right now, i won't have the joy to pull mirrage out tomorrow, so im just waiting for the first benchmark videos. For now, i will go sleep. Gn8 everyone.

 

Condi mesmer is utterly mediocre and not used anywhere outside Matthias and maybe Cairn. Power mesmer is also a meme spec right in the middle of qT's benchmark, and it's niche because it has zero cleave, so it's a useless spec on fractals or anything that is not a single boss fight with no breaks.

 

You raid and do fractals as chronomancer boonbot, period.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> > > >

> > > > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

> > >

> > > As if people play 3/3 of a game format. By that brilliant logic it would be fine if PvE didn't exist at all, since you can play two formats you have zero interest in.

> >

> > Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

>

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > Speed of Sand should increase condition damage on targets with bleeding by 10%.

> > >

> > > Nomad's Endurance should trigger from mirage cloak.

> > >

> > > Riddle of Sand no longer has the shatter requirement. The confusion applies on every ambush.

> > >

> > > There, Mirage is now significantly less terrible in PvE.

> > >

> > > Reduce Signet of Humility's cooldown to 60 seconds in PvE only. Jaunt now also applies 6 stacks of torment and confusion for 8 seconds, in PvE only.

> > >

> > > The deception utilities are unsalvageable in PvE, a pity since the only good mesmer utilities in PvE are signet of inspiration and chronomancer wells.

> > >

> > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > > > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

> > > > >

> > > > > As if people play 3/3 of a game format. By that brilliant logic it would be fine if PvE didn't exist at all, since you can play two formats you have zero interest in.

> > > >

> > > > Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

> > >

> > >

> > > That's easy to say when the new toy that changes how you've been playing for the last 3 years fits perfectly with your preferred pvp format.

> > >

> > > In fact, pvp players benefited just as much from chrono as pve players have. Why can't pve players now benefit from mirage just as much as PvP players can?

> > >

> > > Why is it OK for a spec to be PvP only yet when a spec is garbage in PvE and only good in PvE, you people would be up in arms.

> > >

> > > Mesmer has a single viable PvE spec, chronomancer boonbot. That's it. PvP players have condi mesmer, power shatter mesmer, interrupt mesmer. Build variety is a thing in PvP, yet PvE players get left out in the cold.

> >

> > Power Mesmer , condi mesmer , boonbot chrono. I wouldn't be upset if mirrage is PvE focused only, cause i understand that specialization doesn't mean ; be able to be good at everything, but rather ; be able to be really good in certain situations. And i'm still pretty sure mirrage will replace condi mesmer in terms of raw dmg output more then most of u ppl think. It's sad when ppl don't do any kind of Maths.

> >

> > Since im low on budget right now, i won't have the joy to pull mirrage out tomorrow, so im just waiting for the first benchmark videos. For now, i will go sleep. Gn8 everyone.

>

> Condi mesmer is utterly mediocre and not used anywhere outside Matthias and maybe Cairn. Power mesmer is also a meme spec right in the middle of qT's benchmark, and it's niche because it has zero cleave, so it's a useless spec on fractals or anything that is not a single boss fight with no breaks.

>

> You raid and do fractals as chronomancer boonbot, period.

 

Well i see, ur one of those guys who need perfect setup or the class/build is useless... Dont need to talk then anymore. Gn8

[Esplen.3940]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > Says the person who doesn't use math when posting that things are good. :/

>

> U remember the guy who said mirrage would do roughly 30-32k dps?

> I took my time and went through the full rotation, with raid buffs, vulnerabilty etc. Guess which number i achived in the end ?

> And believe me ; if im 180° wrong with this, it's no problem for me to say i did a mistake.

 

Good for you, now share your work.

[Knox.8962]

> @mortrialus.3062 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > 100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone. Bunkering Points with F4 into 3 possible mirrors all near the points -> u wanna stay on point anyways in most cases, therefore less worries about positioning. Illusionary ambush 10 sec cd reduced to 20 seconds is huge too...

> >

> > And yeah for Pve i expect something like 30k dps. Not perfect for raiding, cause no group support, but still totally solid to play.

>

> There's nooooo way based on current numbers Mirage is getting close to 30k dps. Condition mesmer is 26k dps and Mirage is a slight upgrade over that at best.

 

You care to wager on that? Mirage is a huge upgrade for pve condi dps.

[Dondagora.9645]

@"FaboBabo.3581"

 

Look, this is the same thing with your original post in the old forums.

 

Give us a build or be quiet. Hell, give us a video if you can, or pics, or something. If you can't give us something along those lines to look at and say "huh, I can see that", then it's unreasonable to assume you can convince us. And if you're unwilling to convince us wholeheartedly (AKA you're just half-arsing it), then I don't understand why you're even attempting to argue when you're forgoing every possible avenue of being persuasive and valid.

[Abelisk.4527]

It'll be interesting to see a working shatter build!

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

>Power mesmer is also a meme spec right in the middle of qT's benchmark, and it's niche because it has zero cleave, so it's a useless spec on fractals or anything that is not a single boss fight with no breaks

 

I'm not a PvE guy by any means, but isn't "right in the middle" of the benchmarks exactly where you want a balanced build's damage to be? I don't see the problem from what you've described of the mesmer PvE situation currently. It's got a great build, a good build, and an acceptable build.

 

 

[Zenith.7301]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> >Power mesmer is also a meme spec right in the middle of qT's benchmark, and it's niche because it has zero cleave, so it's a useless spec on fractals or anything that is not a single boss fight with no breaks

>

> I'm not a PvE guy by any means, but isn't "right in the middle" of the benchmarks exactly where you want a balanced build's damage to be? I don't see the problem from what you've described of the mesmer PvE situation currently. It's got a great build, a good build, and an acceptable build.

>

>

 

Being comparatively in the middle doesn't help you when the delta is 6k DPS from the top.

[Mitzruti.5719]

otoh, power mesmer is piss easy and much more reliably delivers closer to that peak. while those ele builds? yeah. those numbers will basically never happen.

 

qtfy even go out of their way to say that the benchmark numbers aren't going to line up with real raid conditions.

[Zenith.7301]

> @Mitzruti.5719 said:

> otoh, power mesmer is kitten easy and much more reliably delivers closer to that peak. while those ele builds? yeah. those numbers will basically never happen.

>

> qtfy even go out of their way to say that the benchmark numbers aren't going to line up with real raid conditions.

 

You know what else is easy? Dragonhunter, cPS warrior, and daredevil. Oh, look who's right alongside those eles. Yeah, dragonhunters, cPS, daredevil.

 

cPS warrior does more DPS than power mesmer and provides a total of ~14k extra DPS in raid buffs to boot with phalanx strength and banners+ empower allies. Dragonhunter provides boons, aegis, massive aoe burst. Condi warrior is ahead of pmesmer by 5k, as is dragonhunter.

 

Power mesmer only does boss damage. It has no aoe. It has no add damage since all your damage is phantasms tied to a single target with a ramp up time of 15+ seconds.

 

It is virtually a niche build that few will bother to bring when you can go chrono and bring an actual DPS. Nobody wants power mesmer in fractals since 80% of a fractal is trash mobs (also known as aoe) and most fractal bosses don't leave long enough to justify power mesmer ramp up.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Mitzruti.5719 said:

> > otoh, power mesmer is kitten easy and much more reliably delivers closer to that peak. while those ele builds? yeah. those numbers will basically never happen.

> >

> > qtfy even go out of their way to say that the benchmark numbers aren't going to line up with real raid conditions.

>

> You know what else is easy? Dragonhunter, cPS warrior, and daredevil. Oh, look who's right alongside those eles. Yeah, dragonhunters, cPS, daredevil.

>

> cPS warrior does more DPS than power mesmer and provides a total of ~14k extra DPS in raid buffs to boot. Dragonhunter provides boons, aegis, massive aoe burst. Condi warrior is ahead of pmesmer by 5k, as is dragonhunter.

 

No, CPS Warrior will not exceed the damage output of a Power Mesmer except on Slothasar (where CPS is usually the top DPS due to ignoring slubling mechanic).

 

Condi DPS Warrior, DH, and Eles can go toe to toe with Power Mesmer, and even exceed them in DPS, but it requires brains to use compared to a 2 button rotation. I do not include Daredevil (Power or Condi) because the fights where they are usable are far and few between and they struggle to maintain top DPS, in my experiences.

 

In my power (and condi) mesmer raiding these past few weeks, I've usually only gone toe to toe with DH and some Eles, but the only times where I get significantly outpaced are fights where it's bad to run dps mesmer or against KC where a good Ele can hit 300k+ DPS during burn phases whereas a Power Mesmer peaks at around 250-270k (and that's a somewhat hard limit).

 

The fights where I wouldn't bring a dps Mesmer are: Gorseval, Trio, Escort (McLeod), and Deimos.

 

The fight where I wouldn't bring a power Mesmer: Matthias.

Note: Mirage is not an increased DPS against this boss due to low Vigor uptime (less Condi Damage), mechanics against moving (Axe unusable), and not being able to melee the entire fight (no Sand Shard DPS increase).

 

Mesmer is easily able to top DPS on VG, Sabetha, and Matthias (even considering unfavorable RNG) when compared to other DPS who ignore mechanics (when applicable).

Mesmer is able to go toe to toe on high DPS on fights such as Xera, Cairn, Mursaat Overseer, and Samarog, disregarding unfavorable RNG (looking at you, Xera).

 

Just to note: CPS Warriors usually peak at around 15k DPS, although I've seen some reach 18k. This damage is almost always cleave-heavy damage, and when you look at single target (boss dps) gets dropped down to around 12-16k. Power Mesmer easily hits 13-20k single target, with cleave at around 15-24k. The large variance is due to certain bosses forcing significantly lower damage outputs (see: Slothasar and Matthias).

 

Against Matthias, a CPS will usually hit around 11-13k total and 8-12k single target (gotta cleave those tornadoes, yo).

[Curunen.8729]

Edit -nvm I'm being stupid.

[Zenith.7301]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @Mitzruti.5719 said:

> > > otoh, power mesmer is kitten easy and much more reliably delivers closer to that peak. while those ele builds? yeah. those numbers will basically never happen.

> > >

> > > qtfy even go out of their way to say that the benchmark numbers aren't going to line up with real raid conditions.

> >

> > You know what else is easy? Dragonhunter, cPS warrior, and daredevil. Oh, look who's right alongside those eles. Yeah, dragonhunters, cPS, daredevil.

> >

> > cPS warrior does more DPS than power mesmer and provides a total of ~14k extra DPS in raid buffs to boot. Dragonhunter provides boons, aegis, massive aoe burst. Condi warrior is ahead of pmesmer by 5k, as is dragonhunter.

>

> No, CPS Warrior will not exceed the damage output of a Power Mesmer except on Slothasar (where CPS is usually the top DPS due to ignoring slubling mechanic).

>

> Condi DPS Warrior, DH, and Eles can go toe to toe with Power Mesmer, and even exceed them in DPS, but it requires brains to use compared to a 2 button rotation. I do not include Daredevil (Power or Condi) because the fights where they are usable are far and few between and they struggle to maintain top DPS, in my experiences.

>

> In my power (and condi) mesmer raiding these past few weeks, I've usually only gone toe to toe with DH and some Eles, but the only times where I get significantly outpaced are fights where it's bad to run dps mesmer or against KC where a good Ele can hit 300k+ DPS during burn phases whereas a Power Mesmer peaks at around 250-270k (and that's a somewhat hard limit).

>

> The fights where I wouldn't bring a dps Mesmer are: Gorseval, Trio, Escort (McLeod), and Deimos.

>

> The fight where I wouldn't bring a power Mesmer: Matthias.

> Note: Mirage is not an increased DPS against this boss due to low Vigor uptime (less Condi Damage), mechanics against moving (Axe unusable), and not being able to melee the entire fight (no Sand Shard DPS increase).

>

> Mesmer is easily able to top DPS on VG, Sabetha, and Matthias (even considering unfavorable RNG) when compared to other DPS who ignore mechanics (when applicable).

> Mesmer is able to go toe to toe on high DPS on fights such as Xera, Cairn, Mursaat Overseer, and Samarog, disregarding unfavorable RNG (looking at you, Xera).

>

> Just to note: CPS Warriors usually peak at around 15k DPS, although I've seen some reach 18k. This damage is almost always cleave-heavy damage, and when you look at single target (boss dps) gets dropped down to around 12-16k. Power Mesmer easily hits 13-20k single target, with cleave at around 15-24k. The large variance is due to certain bosses forcing significantly lower damage outputs (see: Slothasar and Matthias).

>

> Against Matthias, a CPS will usually hit around 11-13k total and 8-12k single target (gotta cleave those tornadoes, yo).

 

PS warrior is hardly difficult, and much less the non-PS variant. If we balanced around difficulty, engineer and elementalist would be blowing everything out of the water. They don't.

 

I also don't get why you aim to dismiss numbers as cleave, as if cleave was not integral to clearing a fight. Bring a set of power mesmers without those tempests or dragonhunters to carry you in fights where the cleave is necessary.

 

You do one thing decently (boss damage), and you aren't even the best at it. Condi thief is also hardly undesirable in raiding. Mesmer rotation is simple because there aren't any other buttons worth pressing besides autoattack and blurred frenzy once phantasms are out. Compare chronomancer to PS warrior in a support role, and your assertion that difficulty should dictate balance falls apart considering PS warrior provides a larger DPS raid boost while having a significantly simpler rotation.

 

None of this post even addresses fractals where mesmer is decidedly even worse. Chronomancer is and will continue to be what keeps mesmer presence in the majority of instanced PvE content. It's not a good state of affairs for the class.

[Esplen.3940]

I did not state that difficulty should (linearly) equate to output. Additionally, Power Mesmer does Cleave with ~50-60% of it's output. It has a 3 target cleave as opposed to 5 target, sure, but saying that a Power Mesmer has no cleave is either hyperbole or oblivion.

[Zenith.7301]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> I did not state that difficulty should (linearly) equate to output. Additionally, Power Mesmer does Cleave with ~50-60% of it's output. It has a 3 target cleave as opposed to 5 target, sure, but saying that a Power Mesmer has no cleave is either hyperbole or oblivion.

 

It has 3 target conal cleave. It's no air overload, meteor shower, or DH trap range cleave. It's why it's bad in fractals to begin with.

 

I want to make this clear. Power mesmer is a step in the right direction after many years, but it is not an example people get to point at to say that mesmer has it good in PvE. The vast majority of mesmer players will be forced to go chronomancer for the vast majority of the game content.

[Daishi.6027]

This is better over all. 1 second doge is pretty cool, and kinda (skeptically) hyped to try out distorted dessert, and the possibilities. We needed more on demand doge and trading our already shattered illusions for a lengthy set of mirrors after mirage cloak buff might be good..

That said, don't really think adding 3 seconds to standard mirrors is going to help them not be clunky but okay, we'll see.

 

You guys (anet) seem determined to use the mirror mechanic, I'm sure majority of us would have preferred something else, even though this might be fun open world...?

But maybe in the future show this to us early for scrutiny, because much like shatter I feel long run this isn't going to be as effective for the main game types at any decent level of play, as you guys (anet) think it will.

Which I get this game makes majority of it's money on casuals, but if you're going to balance for anyone, maybe balance for the people where balance actually matters?

 

I still have major qualms regarding these following features, as I particularity care about them and want to be good:

 

* Split Surge - I really doubt clone damage is going to supplement this to any useful level.

Still think it needs a coefficient of at least 2.0

 

* Jaunt - will probably still feel to short and unwieldy.

 

* Sand through glass - still seems underwhelming.

 

* Mirage Advance - target drop + clone on return is appealing but that cast time on something like this is kind of ludacris.

Kind of curious if the LoS requirement was a bug, it's great that it was removed, but if it was intentional I'm genuinely curious how during the internal discussion someone said "Like flanking strike, but with a cast time, respects LoS, and blinds instead of imob!!" and that got green lit.

(and if the answer to that justification is the higher coefficient I think we need to have a talk on how effects and damage is valued.)

 

**Although I am being critical, most of these changes make me happy to see work being done to improve it.** Things of note being

Mirage thrust, Self-Deception, Illusionary Ambush (my fav skill so far), in general Mirage Advance functionality change, False Oasis... maybe?, and the Ether Barrage change doesn't bother me at all even as someone who wants to play power builds.

 

I'm only critical because I think there just needs to be a mindset that intentionally is pushing it to be really good in either sPvP, WvW, or Fractal/Raid. Or at least to play some role that is either viable and fun within those groups. (like every other elite spec.)

For example: If you make something a great 1v1 duelist, it has to still respect sPvP's meta, or at least not be completely out classed by the same in slot (role) picks.

The same principle of that example applies to whatever role is chosen for whatever game type.

Another example: If we're now DPS viable from letting our phants ramp, and we gained survivability it needs to respect that Chrono can do the same job, survive without mobility, and offers buffs. Because unless new raid content is going to require a ton of kiting, Chrono would still be a better choice.

 

Over all good work with the improvements.

[Skuzz.6580]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > >Power mesmer is also a meme spec right in the middle of qT's benchmark, and it's niche because it has zero cleave, so it's a useless spec on fractals or anything that is not a single boss fight with no breaks

> >

> > I'm not a PvE guy by any means, but isn't "right in the middle" of the benchmarks exactly where you want a balanced build's damage to be? I don't see the problem from what you've described of the mesmer PvE situation currently. It's got a great build, a good build, and an acceptable build.

> >

> >

>

> Being comparatively in the middle doesn't help you when the delta is 6k DPS from the top.

 

Just imagine if there were no dps meters and benchmarks, how everyone then could just play whatever they like, wouldn't that be a nice thing?? Ooh wait you still can.

People with there wow mindset are just ruining GW2 honestly, You don't bloody need a perfect group to clear content, you can do with 'average' builds and do just fine. Anet clearly designed it that way but people just want to nitpick because they don't want to put more effort in than is needed (as if a fight lasting 30seconds longer is much more effort..).

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Dondagora.9645 said:

> @"FaboBabo.3581"

>

> Look, this is the same thing with your original post in the old forums.

>

> Give us a build or be quiet. kitten, give us a video if you can, or pics, or something. If you can't give us something along those lines to look at and say "huh, I can see that", then it's unreasonable to assume you can convince us. And if you're unwilling to convince us wholeheartedly (AKA you're just half-arsing it), then I don't understand why you're even attempting to argue when you're forgoing every possible avenue of being persuasive and valid.

 

Well im not the one who u Think i am.

Am currently on my phone and won't do the math here again. Not even Sure if im going to do the math again Overall ( i should get home in the evening when pof is already launched )

 

Second Thing is that im not in the need to proof anything to u since tbh i dont care about u. Wait a few houres and look up for benchmark videos, or go ahead and say everyone is lying i dont care mate.

( i never saved the math cause why should i ... )

[Ryouzanpaku.1273]

@"FaboBabo.3581"

well... You are either:

Trolling

Deliberately lying

Annoyingly flexing

 

Neither of these will get you many friends.. But as you have stated you dont care... So good for you.