Season 10 Matchmaker

[Emtiarbi.3281]

Well, 1 scourge is not a problem, the problem is when there are 2 or more imo.

[Cal Cohen.3527]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > Zoop and I also had a match where we were placed against 4x Scourges. These people did not swap classes, it just loaded in 4x Scourges against our team that had no Scourges or Firebrands. Needless to say, we lost that match. What felt bad though, is that we were mulching these Scourges all match. Our team seriously outplayed the 4x Scourge team. But because it was a team of 4x Scourges, to be able to kill them, we couldn't stand on the nodes. The 4x Scourge team won the match by repeatedly dying, respawning and walking onto nodes to keep us off nodes, despite the fact that they were being farmed for kills.

> > >

> > > I think that match may have been the biggest demonstration of an imbalanced meta and now imbalanced game mode in general, that I have personally witnessed in all the years of Guild Wars 2.

> > >

> > > **Do not allow class stacking like that if you don't plan on balancing the intra-class dynamics.**

> > >

> >

> > This should literally never happen if no one swapped. I'll track down the match tomorrow and see what's up

>

> If they did swap, it happened before I was able to load in and push the B screen to look at team composition, which means it was pre-contemplated to do so, which reveals a huge exploit within the system to bypass the anti class stacking function. Is there no way to implement a function that plainly prevents a player from logging out and back onto a class that there is already 2 of in the player's current team?

>

> Our team consisted of: Druid/Holo/Holo and two other DPS specs which were not Scourges. The enemy team was 4x Scourges and 1x Holo. Aside from what the coy & sarcastic responses say in this thread, the large majority of player base would agree that a team's success rate goes up higher and higher the more Scourges & Firebrands that are on that team. This is true in spvp and wvw.

 

I found the match and two of the players on that team swapped to necro after the queue popped. The solution would be to lock character on queue instead of match start but this comes with its own problems. We held a poll some time ago and players voted against locking character on queue.

[Wichidi.9281]

this is the WORST season we EVER had. class stacking in EVERY single placement game. legit EVERY game i did had 2 scourges on enym side while we get 2-3 warriors. i thought the game could not get any worse since we have this terrible balance. but u managed to make it even worse w the new matchmaking. This is what every game looks like:

 

https://imgur.com/a/KWSIC

 

nobody swapped classes after loading in. this is how we loaded in.

[Cal Cohen.3527]

> @"Wolfric.9380" said:

> It simply should never happen that the same class has more then one more then the other team. So 0:1, 1:1, 1:2, 2:2, 2:3 and 3:3 should be the valid options and no other choice. Having 3 of the same on one side is already a bad sign but if really needed ...

 

In cases with an odd number of a profession, the matcher will always do an off by 1 split because 0:3 and 1:4 exceed the 2 limit. In cases with an even number of a profession, forcing the even split starts running into problems when the highest and lowest rated players in the match are the same profession, and this is further exacerbated when you add 2-man rosters into the mix. It's forced to make a worse match because it must put those players on opposite teams even if that doesn't make the most sense from a rating perspective.

[Cal Cohen.3527]

> @"Forsty.7968" said:

> > @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > yes­­­­­­­­

>

> Hey,

>

> Im curious about volatility when it comes to rating if youre interested in answering. How come do you allow the rating gain/loss to be so volatile at the start of seasons? I understand that MMR or hidden rating whatever it is is not like this but for example at the start of this season you see last seasons 50% winrate gold players jumping all the way to plat 2/3 due to winstreaks * . Doesnt it still effect the matchmaking in some ways like if their winstreak continues, their hidden rating will rise higher and theyll be matched in games where they, at least according to last season, should not belong? I agree that a degree of volatility is good to have but a jump that goes almost 1 division higher after being "hardstuck" in last season. Sorry if this derails from the thread too much.

>

> * im not speaking of all gold players or large amounts, just some that ive noticed myself throughout the leaderboard.

 

Volatility is higher at the start of a season to give players a chance to get to their true rating faster. If we started everyone at the minimum value it would take dozens of games to climb up, which means more matches of true legendary players playing against silver and gold players. While it's true that some players can luck into a high rating at the start of the season, if they don't belong there they'll drop back down as they continue to play. Essentially it's a net positive over the course of the season, although it does add some variance to the start.

[Forsty.7968]

> @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > @"Forsty.7968" said:

> > > @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > > yes­­­­­­­­

> >

> > Hey,

> >

> > Im curious about volatility when it comes to rating if youre interested in answering. How come do you allow the rating gain/loss to be so volatile at the start of seasons? I understand that MMR or hidden rating whatever it is is not like this but for example at the start of this season you see last seasons 50% winrate gold players jumping all the way to plat 2/3 due to winstreaks * . Doesnt it still effect the matchmaking in some ways like if their winstreak continues, their hidden rating will rise higher and theyll be matched in games where they, at least according to last season, should not belong? I agree that a degree of volatility is good to have but a jump that goes almost 1 division higher after being "hardstuck" in last season. Sorry if this derails from the thread too much.

> >

> > * im not speaking of all gold players or large amounts, just some that ive noticed myself throughout the leaderboard.

>

> Volatility is higher at the start of a season to give players a chance to get to their true rating faster. If we started everyone at the minimum value it would take dozens of games to climb up, which means more matches of true legendary players playing against silver and gold players. While it's true that some players can luck into a high rating at the start of the season, if they don't belong there they'll drop back down as they continue to play. Essentially it's a net positive over the course of the season, although it does add some variance to the start.

 

Thanks for the answer although now im just thinking like is there any reason for high rated players to want to play during the first few weeks of the season opposed to waiting for most people to calibrate into their true ratings to get less randomness in their games. Though i understand why it is how it is i suppose.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Wichidi.9281" said:

> this is the WORST season we EVER had. class stacking in EVERY single placement game. legit EVERY game i did had 2 scourges on enym side while we get 2-3 warriors. i thought the game could not get any worse since we have this terrible balance. but u managed to make it even worse w the new matchmaking. This is what every game looks like:

>

> https://imgur.com/a/KWSIC

>

> nobody swapped classes after loading in. this is how we loaded in.

 

Obviously you didn't play in season 1.> @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > @"Forsty.7968" said:

> > > @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > > yes­­­­­­­­

> >

> > Hey,

> >

> > Im curious about volatility when it comes to rating if youre interested in answering. How come do you allow the rating gain/loss to be so volatile at the start of seasons? I understand that MMR or hidden rating whatever it is is not like this but for example at the start of this season you see last seasons 50% winrate gold players jumping all the way to plat 2/3 due to winstreaks * . Doesnt it still effect the matchmaking in some ways like if their winstreak continues, their hidden rating will rise higher and theyll be matched in games where they, at least according to last season, should not belong? I agree that a degree of volatility is good to have but a jump that goes almost 1 division higher after being "hardstuck" in last season. Sorry if this derails from the thread too much.

> >

> > * im not speaking of all gold players or large amounts, just some that ive noticed myself throughout the leaderboard.

>

> Volatility is higher at the start of a season to give players a chance to get to their true rating faster. If we started everyone at the minimum value it would take dozens of games to climb up, which means more matches of true legendary players playing against silver and gold players. While it's true that some players can luck into a high rating at the start of the season, if they don't belong there they'll drop back down as they continue to play. Essentially it's a net positive over the course of the season, although it does add some variance to the start.

 

Just increase the length of seasons, decrease volatility, and get rid with the reset, take old MMR into account. Problem solved.

It makes no sense that what should probably be a Silver Bronze player (hasn't played in years) gets matched against top players for placements. It will artificially worsen his standing (or improve it if he gets matched on their team).

 

As for the class stacking post queue.

It's easy.

Change the way queuing and matchmaking works.

Keep the "Accept Match" queue.

Add a screen between accepting match and picking the map where players draft pick their classes through a drop down list of their characters.

Lock classes here.

Add the map picking screen.

 

Alternatively. Add the class lock on the "warm up stage" after they click "ready", and allow players to change characters through a menu during the warmup.

 

[Xarimath.4518]

> @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

>We held a poll some time ago and players voted against locking character on queue.

 

Although this was way before you released PoF and gave birth to Abominations like Scourge.

[zoopop.5630]

> @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > Zoop and I also had a match where we were placed against 4x Scourges. These people did not swap classes, it just loaded in 4x Scourges against our team that had no Scourges or Firebrands. Needless to say, we lost that match. What felt bad though, is that we were mulching these Scourges all match. Our team seriously outplayed the 4x Scourge team. But because it was a team of 4x Scourges, to be able to kill them, we couldn't stand on the nodes. The 4x Scourge team won the match by repeatedly dying, respawning and walking onto nodes to keep us off nodes, despite the fact that they were being farmed for kills.

> > > >

> > > > I think that match may have been the biggest demonstration of an imbalanced meta and now imbalanced game mode in general, that I have personally witnessed in all the years of Guild Wars 2.

> > > >

> > > > **Do not allow class stacking like that if you don't plan on balancing the intra-class dynamics.**

> > > >

> > >

> > > This should literally never happen if no one swapped. I'll track down the match tomorrow and see what's up

> >

> > If they did swap, it happened before I was able to load in and push the B screen to look at team composition, which means it was pre-contemplated to do so, which reveals a huge exploit within the system to bypass the anti class stacking function. Is there no way to implement a function that plainly prevents a player from logging out and back onto a class that there is already 2 of in the player's current team?

> >

> > Our team consisted of: Druid/Holo/Holo and two other DPS specs which were not Scourges. The enemy team was 4x Scourges and 1x Holo. Aside from what the coy & sarcastic responses say in this thread, the large majority of player base would agree that a team's success rate goes up higher and higher the more Scourges & Firebrands that are on that team. This is true in spvp and wvw.

>

> I found the match and two of the players on that team swapped to necro after the queue popped. The solution would be to lock character on queue instead of match start but this comes with its own problems. We held a poll some time ago and players voted against locking character on queue.

 

and you see noting wrong with this at all do you? Classes NEED to be LOCKED in once you get into a game point blank period, If they want to continue doing "pve" after their game is done thats great but have Players Enter the Mist before joining a Rank match up and have restriction on Class Stacking/Swapping. This is becoming troublesome and very old.

 

Can't expect a Holo Smith Main to carry a game against 4 Scourges in a match and then have me lose 30 points for it because i was unable to carry....that makes 0 sense.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

We made a quick change to the new matchmaker to not allow one team to have more than +1 of a class. Example: You should now never see 2 Scourge vs 0 Scourge. You could see 2 scourge vs 1 scourge. However, as has been previously noted, people can class swap during warmup to get by this restriction.

[whoknocks.4935]

Same exact problem of 2-3 scourges or 2 scourges 2 mirages in the enemy team and my team zero of both at the beginning no swaps.

 

Maybe they put the algorithm to stack classes instead of the opposite tho.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> Same exact problem of 2-3 scourges or 2 scourges 2 mirages in the enemy team and my team zero of both at the beginning no swaps.

>

> Maybe they put the algorithm to stack classes instead of the opposite tho.

 

The +1 class restriction was just put into place as I posted. If your match started before then, that restriction wasn't in place.

[Rufo.3716]

Now if the balance team could just do their job ranked might actually be worth playing. Right now team with the most necro, mes, guard has the best chance to win. Play anything else you just kind of screw your team.

[Undertaker.4368]

Well in one match i played agianist 3 firebrand. Was fun

[Vieux P.1238]

I often swap my main to an other from the same class...just not the same build..depending on the other side composition. Since there's no character build templates.

[Aenaos.8160]

But since this new MM rule can so easily be circumvented,and players can exploit it

and stack classes,doesn't it make it short of mandatory to exploit and class stack,and

doesn't this place everyone who's not willing to use the exploit at a disadvantage?

That's a rhetorical question.

[zoopop.5630]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > Same exact problem of 2-3 scourges or 2 scourges 2 mirages in the enemy team and my team zero of both at the beginning no swaps.

> >

> > Maybe they put the algorithm to stack classes instead of the opposite tho.

>

> The +1 class restriction was just put into place as I posted. If your match started before then, that restriction wasn't in place.

 

ya, you guys dropped the ball on this one yet again match making is disgusting this season compared to last season. I'm sorry but you guys aren't gonna fix anything till you start restricting class swapping and stacking in general.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Thank you for the feedback Cal & Ben. Despite wouldbe snarky responses, players do appreciate interaction from the anet team. I'd like to point out that the match maker works great when it is working as intended. You guys have done a great job on that. The major problems with match making occur when players exploit the match making system and deny it of its purpose, "such as logging off the character they loaded in as, and logging back in with something else, to avoid the anti class stacking feature" or "running alt account match manipulation tactics".

 

I'm sure you are limited in what exactly you can do to solve these issues but if there were any way to discourage such behavior rather than allowing it to be so easy to do, focusing development on those issues would in my opinion be the most effective route towards increasing the quality of match making.

[Legatus.3608]

I don't like this change TBH. It just increases queue time for no net realistic change since ppl can change class at startup anyways. Plus, maybe I want to roll some weird ranger build to directly counter scourge, who knows, just because there isn't an equal number of classes doesn't mean the matchup is bad. Although, I guess +2 of a class could be uncommon enough to maybe not drastically alter the queue time, I just feel like the change itself is pointless. The class selection itself is already represented in MMR as well, in a sense.

[Trendy.1694]

 

 

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We made a quick change to the new matchmaker to not allow one team to have more than +1 of a class. Example: You should now never see 2 Scourge vs 0 Scourge. You could see 2 scourge vs 1 scourge. However, as has been previously noted, people can class swap during warmup to get by this restriction.

 

You are saying scourge, but it is actually necro, right? It is not bound to elites?

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Cal Cohen.3527" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Zoop and I also had a match where we were placed against 4x Scourges. These people did not swap classes, it just loaded in 4x Scourges against our team that had no Scourges or Firebrands. Needless to say, we lost that match. What felt bad though, is that we were mulching these Scourges all match. Our team seriously outplayed the 4x Scourge team. But because it was a team of 4x Scourges, to be able to kill them, we couldn't stand on the nodes. The 4x Scourge team won the match by repeatedly dying, respawning and walking onto nodes to keep us off nodes, despite the fact that they were being farmed for kills.

> >

> > I think that match may have been the biggest demonstration of an imbalanced meta and now imbalanced game mode in general, that I have personally witnessed in all the years of Guild Wars 2.

> >

> > **Do not allow class stacking like that if you don't plan on balancing the intra-class dynamics.**

> >

>

> This should literally never happen if no one swapped. I'll track down the match tomorrow and see what's up

 



 

My first 2 ranked games for the season, no swapsies.

 

It's happening quite a bit.

 

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"Trendy.1694" said:

>

>

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > We made a quick change to the new matchmaker to not allow one team to have more than +1 of a class. Example: You should now never see 2 Scourge vs 0 Scourge. You could see 2 scourge vs 1 scourge. However, as has been previously noted, people can class swap during warmup to get by this restriction.

>

> You are saying scourge, but it is actually necro, right? It is not bound to elites?

 

Yes, you're correct. Should have said necro. It's class, not elite.

[Wichidi.9281]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > Same exact problem of 2-3 scourges or 2 scourges 2 mirages in the enemy team and my team zero of both at the beginning no swaps.

> >

> > Maybe they put the algorithm to stack classes instead of the opposite tho.

>

> The +1 class restriction was just put into place as I posted. If your match started before then, that restriction wasn't in place.

 

dear ben,

 

if u really want ur matchmaking to work, u have to consider BUILDS. i see many games with 1 guardian on each team whereas one is a core guard or dh and one is a firebrand. lets pretend both guards are at the same skill level, the team with the firebrand will ALWAYS have a huge advantage and mostly win. especially in the current meta with scourges all over the place.

 

ur matchmaking works in theory, but not in the actual pvp because of this. matchmaking doesnt consider the balance.

 

im afraid to inform u that u either need to balance the game out better as in having a core guard and firebrand has the same value ( which is very difficult )

or

adjust ur matchmaking to the current meta. like: a 1450 rank firebrand is equal to a 1600 rank core guard. same goes for core necro/reaper and scourge. scrapper or holo. etc.

 

Also, if theres a scourge and a firebrand in the game and due to skill ranking they are on the same team, make sure they are split up over the teams. because firebrand and scourge are just insane together. id rather have a fireband and scourge on my team and a lower average skill ranking despite my team THAN higher skill rating on my team but be the one facing the scourge and firebrand.

 

If u would consider those aspects in ur matchmaking, im sure it would drastically increase the health of pvp.

 

in case u happen to read this id be glad if u could leave a reply.

 

cheers

 

[xiProdigyx.9138]

Thank you ANET for that change you made. The matches are playable again. Haven't had 3 of the same class in my matches since the change! :)

[martin.1653]

I think this whole mess with stacked classes is approached totally wrong.

What needs to be done is make matchmaker that propagates class diversity before it even starts the matchmaking process - a way to do that would be to 'penalise' often used classes by pushing them further back in que and making their wait times longer. This way, people would be given a choice: play scourge like 30% of the population and have longer que, or play something else that is not represented as much and have shorter que. That would automatically mean less stacked classes, because matchmaker would favourise lesser used classes in order to make more diverse teams.

First obvious problem here is that people can still swap when they enter match, but it would be less likely that team would stack up on certain class this way. Additionally have people unable to swap unless there's an open position for certain class according to pre-match matchmaker (if 2 scourge enter on A side and 1 scourge enters on B side, then A side is locked out of scourges unless B side swaps into 2nd scourge).

Second problem would people crying it's unfair and discriminating to their main class. Well, tough luck, life is also unfair. If you wanna play it cheesy then you gotta deal with longer que. Simple.