Main Hand Dagger Rework Suggeston

[BrokenGlass.9356]

We all know dagger is outclassed by other weapons for every purpose.

 

- Power damage with the AA chain? Take an Axe instead.

- Utility from the imobalize? Take a staff. Fear and chill is better for necro anyways.

- lifesteal? Just trait blood magic and use axe.

- a bruiser weapon with focus offhand? Just spec reaper and use GS.

 

This leaves dagger in an odd spot. With little synergy between MH and OH daggers... And little to no synergy with blood magic.

 

- It's damage is to low to be a damage weapon.

- it's support is too low to be support.

- it's healing is self only, so useless for party support.

- it applies bleeding... But not enough condis to consider it as a weapon for any condi build.

 

 

So u propose we give it an identity. One that synergizes with blood, and OH dagger.

 

Auto attack chain:

- apply a buff to allies (sanguine link) it cleaves through on the first and second autos. Lasts 15 sec, stacks up to 10 times. This buff allows them to be healed from Life Siphon for 2% of the healing per stack.

- should apply a 6 sec bleed or regeneration on third auto depending on whether the cleave hits friend or foe.

 

Life siphon:

- will heal 2% per stack of 'sanguine link' on allies inside range 300 around the necromancer. Otherwise the skill remains unchanged.

 

Dark Pact:

This becomes a 'flip skill'

- casting Dark Pact applies 1 stack of 10 sec bleeding to yourself every second you leave the skill active.

- once this skill has been active for 5 sec, all weapon and utility skills stop generating life force. (using Signed in Blood cancels this effect.) max duration is 10 sec.

- take 50% reduced bleed damage while this skill is active.

Signed in Blood:

The new flip skill for Dark Pact

- leap forward 200 range gaining 1 stack of stability per bleed on you at the time of casting, and strike your foe for small direct damage. Apply conditions based on the number of self bleeds on cast. Apply cripple for 1-3 stacks. Immobilize for 3-5 stacks. Daze for 5-7 stacks. Fear, and chill for 7-10 stacks.

 

 

 

This creates synergy across blood magic. Allows for dagger to be considered as a condi weapon (even if not terribly strong). Keeps its identity as a bruiser weapon in pvp, and become viable as a healing tool... All while preventing it from becoming must take on every build.

[Obtena.7952]

Let's start by already acknowledging it has an identity and go from there; MH dagger is clearly a sustain weapon and it goes well with Blood Magic for two reasons:

 

1. Blood magic has a healing/life siphoning theme that matches the dagger theme

2. Blood magic has the weapon trait exclusive to dagger

 

There are lots of theories why dagger isn't good but being outclassed isn't one of them because weapons are based on a theme, not designed to target specific performance levels relative to other weapons. So the problem with dagger is that the theme of sustain through life siphoning/healing isn't very effective in this game. Two things can happen:

 

1. Anet depart from the theme; as long as dagger is coupled with sustain, it can't do much else; there isn't much bandwidth to do many things in 3 skills

2. Anet improve the theme; this is more likely, because it's clearly their intent to provide themes on weapons that people want to use.

 

I think your sanguine link idea has potential ... AS A TRAIT.

I think any idea that dagger could function in any form as a condition weapon is wishful thinking; it simply doesn't bring it. Almost nothing could be done with the small quantities of bleed application we are talking about.

I think the most potential is with Dark Pact though I think your proposal is a little complicated. Frankly I think it needs to be simpler and more aligned with the health regain like:

 

1. do something bad to someone (whatever that is)

2. apply a bleed stack to yourself every second

3. after 5 seconds, the stacks go away, you regain the damage you took from the self bleed AND regain extra % of health on top by siphoning an equal amount of health from your target.

 

Details aren't relevant really; it's the concept of self-depravity/corruption leading to a heal. It stays true to the theme. I think it's also important to note that we stay away from healing ... it seems to me that it's more clearly health transfer and life siphoning ... that's important to be immune to the effects of poison.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

The dagger does have a theme, I'll grant you. I'm aiming to broaden the theme. Because it's bad at its current theme.

 

Daggers as a set have been the weapons of the corruption skills. 3 applies self bleed, and when coupled with blood is power and plaguelands, the 4 skill can stick quite a few condi's on. (albeit in burst applications and not in sustain.)

 

The concept in adding more conditions, and doing it via self conditions, is in keeping with the theme of daggers as a set.

 

Also, the point here is not to make a 'new condi weapon'. The point is to build thematically. Realistically the idea is to make a weapon whose goal is both:

 

- sustain and lifesteal (here I expanded this to include team healing.)

- bleeding, and burst application

- quick life-force regeneration.

 

 

 

So, I agree that 'sanguine link' ought to be a trait and probably in blood magic. If it's a trait however, it should be stronger than I described and rolled into the dagger trait.

 

As for 'Dark Pact' my thinking behind the flip skill, is to create a hard risk/reward for using it. 'the longer I bleed myself, the stronger the burst but the more at risk I am.' hence the scaled rewards on cc. So, if I wait to transfer the max stack, I had to endure 10 bleeds on myself, (or more through corruption)

The reduction from bleed damage can be used offensively, or defensively, and opens up sustain and burst options in pvp.

The scaling cc allows players who want to double tap the key a short leap that dagger desperately need, with a poor, short duration cc. However for players who time it well, and hang back casting the utilities the set synergizes with so well, while setting up the leap at the perfect moment, are rewarded with much stronger cc. Yet each cc is used for the same purpose after a short leap with a melee weapon in Gw2...

 

I had thought is streamlined, but if there's a better way to capture the theme I'm all ears.

 

I just want to make dagger great again.

[KrHome.1920]

Fun Fact: Dagger - which should fit into Blood Magic - currently fits better into Curses, because Curses applies bleeds on crits that buff Life Siphon (Dagger2). So you don't need to mess around with Dark Pact -> transfer bleed -> Life Siphon or the Mark of Blood on dodge to get the 20% damage increase. You get it for free.

 

Every other synergy Blood Magic offers for Dagger (like fast attacks (Dagger auto) / frequent hits (Dagger2) -> more Life Siphoning) are irrelevant in PvP/WvW. You die trying. Channels that lock you in an animation (= prevent you from doing skill combos) suck in PvP.

 

And in PvE Dagger is outclassed by GS in every possible scenario: More damage, more sustain, more utility. Reliability (which is a big flaw of GS in PvP) is irrelevant in PvE.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Fun Fact: Dagger - which should fit into Blood Magic - currently fits better into Curses, because Curses applies bleeds on crits that buff Life Siphon (Dagger2). So you don't need to mess around with Dark Pact -> transfer bleed -> Life Siphon or the Mark of Blood on dodge to get the 20% damage increase. You get it for free.

>

> Every other synergy Blood Magic offers for Dagger (like fast attacks (Dagger auto) / frequent hits (Dagger2) -> more Life Siphoning) are irrelevant in PvP/WvW. You die trying. Channels that lock you in an animation (= prevent you from doing skill combos) suck in PvP.

>

> And in PvE Dagger is outclassed by GS in every possible scenario: More damage, more sustain, more utility. Reliability (which is a big flaw of GS in PvP) is irrelevant in PvE.

 

And pvp is the only place we care about sustain weapons.

 

Or open world, if you're bad.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> The dagger does have a theme, I'll grant you. I'm aiming to broaden the theme. Because it's bad at its current theme.

>

> Daggers as a set have been the weapons of the corruption skills. 3 applies self bleed, and when coupled with blood is power and plaguelands, the 4 skill can stick quite a few condi's on. (albeit in burst applications and not in sustain.)

>

> The concept in adding more conditions, and doing it via self conditions, is in keeping with the theme of daggers as a set.

>

> Also, the point here is not to make a 'new condi weapon'. The point is to build thematically. Realistically the idea is to make a weapon whose goal is both:

>

> - sustain and lifesteal (here I expanded this to include team healing.)

> - bleeding, and burst application

> - quick life-force regeneration.

>

>

>

> So, I agree that 'sanguine link' ought to be a trait and probably in blood magic. If it's a trait however, it should be stronger than I described and rolled into the dagger trait.

>

> As for 'Dark Pact' my thinking behind the flip skill, is to create a hard risk/reward for using it. 'the longer I bleed myself, the stronger the burst but the more at risk I am.' hence the scaled rewards on cc. So, if I wait to transfer the max stack, I had to endure 10 bleeds on myself, (or more through corruption)

> The reduction from bleed damage can be used offensively, or defensively, and opens up sustain and burst options in pvp.

> The scaling cc allows players who want to double tap the key a short leap that dagger desperately need, with a poor, short duration cc. However for players who time it well, and hang back casting the utilities the set synergizes with so well, while setting up the leap at the perfect moment, are rewarded with much stronger cc. Yet each cc is used for the same purpose after a short leap with a melee weapon in Gw2...

>

> I had thought is streamlined, but if there's a better way to capture the theme I'm all ears.

>

> I just want to make dagger great again.

 

Understood ... we all want the most weapon options possible, especially on classes that don't have many choices to begin with. Broadening the theme is difficult; the current theme is well defined and there isn't much you can do in 3 skills; perhaps if you want to expand the theme, you need to think about how pairing OH and MH dagger can do that together instead of just what can be done in MH dagger. The current theme on MH dagger itself isn't a bad idea because it would be a unique, fun and useful way to survive fights in this game. The theme is fine, it's just it's implementation that is wanton. Just to demonstrate ... if you add a zero to the self-healing on dagger #2, no one would debate that the theme is bad.

 

I will hold off on discussion of dagger-applied damaging conditions. That has been ground into the dirt and very recently as well. I feel there is little value to having dagger applied damage conditions and little chance we get such a thing.

 

I do like the idea of giving a much higher reward for the risk to corrupt yourself and honestly, I don't think any of the corrupt skills do that good a job rewarding you for what they do, including Dark Pact. I've found that most MMO's where you apply a negative-effect on yourself tend to be niche tools and hard to use at large. Anything attached to a weapon skill would have to be very broadly applicable, otherwise you find yourself rarely using the skill.

 

> @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > Fun Fact: Dagger - which should fit into Blood Magic - currently fits better into Curses, because Curses applies bleeds on crits that buff Life Siphon (Dagger2). So you don't need to mess around with Dark Pact -> transfer bleed -> Life Siphon or the Mark of Blood on dodge to get the 20% damage increase. You get it for free.

> >

> > Every other synergy Blood Magic offers for Dagger (like fast attacks (Dagger auto) / frequent hits (Dagger2) -> more Life Siphoning) are irrelevant in PvP/WvW. You die trying. Channels that lock you in an animation (= prevent you from doing skill combos) suck in PvP.

> >

> > And in PvE Dagger is outclassed by GS in every possible scenario: More damage, more sustain, more utility. Reliability (which is a big flaw of GS in PvP) is irrelevant in PvE.

>

> And pvp is the only place we care about sustain weapons.

>

> Or open world, if you're bad.

 

I think you have to be more open minded there. Sustain weapons give you significant ability to exceed the intrinsic defenses. You can only dodge and heal so often; if you are doing content that demands more, these other strategies start looking VERY attractive. Again, the theme isn't the problem, it's the implementation.