Link.1049 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Simple.... no more than 2 of the same class in a match... 5 necro, 5 thief...etc... is just a plague. Ruins the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarshallLaw.9260 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 The community voted for the ability to change characters before starting matches. Even if the MM system prevented 2 of the same class being matched into 1 team when queuing, players will always have the option to switch to another class to bypass this. In addition, the waiting times might increase as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Waiting time could incrase at first, but since now we are going toward soloq, the queue won't be a problem at all. And btw 2x is wrong as more, because 2x in a 5v5 scenario is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong. So the modifies would be * 1x class per team. * Change character before the match removed ( instead, there should be different builds avaible in order to change strategy ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfric.9380 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I don´t think double class is a problem unless a class overperforms significant without much counter ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarshallLaw.9260 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > * Change character before the match removed This has been addressed multiple times; general consensus was that the playerbase wanted to keep options of character picking. As a result this is **very** unlikely to change in the foreseeable future as it will go against majority vote. Please consider that before beating this dead horse of a subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I don't think 2 of the same profession is always a problem. The problem is, in my opinion, when both are playing the same kind of build. Ex: I don't find anything wrong with having a support firebrand and a dps dragonhunter, but I do when the 2 guards are dps or, even worse, support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > * Change character before the match removed > > This has been addressed multiple times; general consensus was that the playerbase wanted to keep options of character picking. As a result this is **very** unlikely to change in the foreseeable future as it will go against majority vote. > Please consider that before beating this dead horse of a subject. > This was before the ranked changes ( i ask you not to forget this, because it's the point of everything ). Now if they will pursue this way > In Season 9, players ranked Platinum 2 (1,600) and above can no longer duo-queue in Ranked matches while seasons are active. They have to give it the last adjustement, which will be > ranked only for solo whatever the rank. This because players can definitely exploit by playing duoq then decide to lose rank while near platinum in order to stomp ( and it happens, and has to be stopped ). Fixed that part, they should face the problems related to class stacking. And since the only conquest queue will be the soloq, there won't be any difference in queue times ( maybe just at the beginning, because some pretends to play unbalanced high reward low risk braindead classes ), and there will instead be more diversity and balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > And btw 2x is wrong as more, because 2x in a 5v5 scenario is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong. This logic though. Care to elaborate? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > And btw 2x is wrong as more, because 2x in a 5v5 scenario is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong. > This logic though. > > Care to elaborate? :D > * 5 classes per team * 20% covered by each player * 2 classes = 40% * 40% is almost a 50% ( as 3x, which is 60%, is almost 50% ). There's no way to get a full 50%, but from 40% and 60% there's a 10% difference, so be my guest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Godlike.6098 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > Waiting time could incrase at first, but since now we are going toward soloq, the queue won't be a problem at all. > And btw 2x is wrong as more, because 2x in a 5v5 scenario is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong. > > So the modifies would be > > * 1x class per team. > * Change character before the match removed ( instead, there should be different builds avaible in order to change strategy ). Sorry just no - even if class stacking was banned some team comps will just instantly be stomped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Mr Godlike.6098" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > Waiting time could incrase at first, but since now we are going toward soloq, the queue won't be a problem at all. > > And btw 2x is wrong as more, because 2x in a 5v5 scenario is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong. > > > > So the modifies would be > > > > * 1x class per team. > > * Change character before the match removed ( instead, there should be different builds avaible in order to change strategy ). > > Sorry just no - even if class stacking was banned some team comps will just instantly be stomped Then it would be a problem balance related, and every team would be able to do the same setup if that so performant. The scenario would be * 1x class * A more performant setup than another ( like any other game, but let's procede ). So, players will queue with classes related to that setup probably ( 5 classes out of 9 ). Players from both teams. The only difference is that we will have 2 problems less * No more class stack * No more class change, which will result into a class stack The fact that there would be a better setup doesn't deny the improvement in terms of balance that the game could have. And it is something which we happened to see with the beginning of HoT, as for PoF. As for now ( necros and firebrand mostly, and also mirages ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > And btw 2x is wrong as more, because 2x in a 5v5 scenario is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong. > > This logic though. > > > > Care to elaborate? :D > > > > * 5 classes per team > * 20% covered by each player > * 2 classes = 40% > * 40% is almost a 50% ( as 3x, which is 60%, is almost 50% ). > > There's no way to get a full 50%, but from 40% and 60% there's a 10% difference, so be my guest. I meant you said 'is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong' Why is it wrong? There is no factual right or wrong in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > And btw 2x is wrong as more, because 2x in a 5v5 scenario is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong. > > > This logic though. > > > > > > Care to elaborate? :D > > > > > > > * 5 classes per team > > * 20% covered by each player > > * 2 classes = 40% > > * 40% is almost a 50% ( as 3x, which is 60%, is almost 50% ). > > > > There's no way to get a full 50%, but from 40% and 60% there's a 10% difference, so be my guest. > I meant you said 'is almost a 50% of the same class, and it's definitely wrong' > > Why is it wrong? There is no factual right or wrong in this case. I don't get you. 60% is almost a 50% as 40% is almost a 50%. And just because you can't have 2 1/2 classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > I don't get you. > > 60% is almost a 50% as 40% is almost a 50%. > And just because you can't have 2 1/2 classes. My question is simple: why is it wrong to have 2 of the same classes in one team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > I don't get you. > > > > 60% is almost a 50% as 40% is almost a 50%. > > And just because you can't have 2 1/2 classes. > My question is simple: why is it wrong to have 2 of the same classes in one team? Was this your question? Whatever, many are the reasons * It kills diversity ( mostly due to the absence of balance, but this since the core game with elementalists and engineers ) in terms of played classes and strategies. * It does not allow other classes to be played, becuase of better setups ( why another class when bringing 2x of this one is way better? different is the situation if you are forbidden to bring 2 or more of the same class ). * As somebody said, before this was impossible due to the queue features. But now they changed it ( and hopefully they are going to put an end to duoq in ranked ) having 1x class will not mean long queues. There are only positive things about given these premises * SPvP WvW and PvE not separated in terms of skills * We have to wait too much for a balancing patch, which most of the time does not bring balance ( due to the previous point. I still think it's not SPvP team's fault ) but simply a change of meta ( which will result in a new broken class which will appear 2x or 3x ). * SPvP team has low resources. As for WvW. This is related to the second point, and it results into some **MEH** changes ( like conditions ). If you want to play you class you will still be able to do this. If you want to play with more of the same classes into your team, you are definitely exploiting with classes balance ( by pretending this ). edit: or better here's a questions Knowing the fact that allowing 2x or more classes brings more disadvantages and balance than 1x class, why, if you like competitive SPvP, would you desire this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Shock.9386 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Just rework pvp from the character screen up. - every account gets a new character slot that can only be used in pvp - pvp characters have access to all classes in the form of one or two loadouts for each class, these can be chosen before a match starts - the class loadouts come pre filled with some standard build and can be edited outside of a match - armour weapons and trinkets are not required to be slotted, they come prefilled into loadouts and the only thing that they're used for is decoration - only one of a class is allowed in ranked pvp, unranked can have either two or no cap - rewards are not collected by the pvp character, they can be collected by any other character via bouncy chests This change would hopefully have the following effects - force team diversity and a little bit of communication to determine players roles - simplify pvp class creation (no need for an extra character slot for each pvp character) - simplify class access before the start of a match (don't need to log out and back in) thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > * It kills diversity ( mostly due to the absence of balance, but this since the core game with elementalists and engineers ) in terms of played classes and strategies. It doesn't kill diversity at all because it does not force anyone playing into a role that he does not want to play. Also, the number of possible team setups is way higher with class stacking -> more diversity. You might want to say 2 classes of the same kind counts as one, but this is not really true. Example: you are going to use an entirely different strategy against a team of 3 scourges than a team against 1 scourge (def. not going to push mid, more likely doing splits etc.). Also, which is probably the strongest point here, you seem to forget there are multiple builds of each class. Removing class stacking would get rid of this, which is obviously very bad. Why would a soulbeast take a spot of a druid? Or a core guardian / FB? Just imagine all the incredible toxicity if you roll anything but a meta build (even worse than now), basically TAKING UP the space of, for example, a Firebrand. > * It does not allow other classes to be played, becuase of better setups ( why another class when bringing 2x of this one is way better? different is the situation if you are forbidden to bring 2 or more of the same class ). This is a balance issue and have nothing to do with matchmaking. > * As somebody said, before this was impossible due to the queue features. But now they changed it ( and hopefully they are going to put an end to duoq in ranked ) having 1x class will not mean long queues. Even if they remove duoq, it would lengthen queue times a LOT. This has been tested and proved before by Arenanet. They actually LOOSENED the class stacking rules in unranked and now also in Season 10 because the tight rules brought longer queue times during testing. Look up the thread, was called new matchmaking in unranked or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 You are definitely wrong. In a hypothetical scenario with balanced classes it would be the way you say. But it's not this way since the release of the game, class stacking is definitely an issue ( or exploit if you prefer. Because players tend to play a specific class not to build different setups, but to stop because the class given ). And It's not me. You could simply check the most HR/LR for every single season, but you probably remember this if you played at least some of them. About the queue tries you talk, they were done in a different scenario which saw solo + duoq and 5v5. In a soloq scenario, the 1x class limit will not bring any sensible extra queue. And remember that with the current queue they have to deal matchmaking also with 2players premade, so if you remove that part too you will get even a faster queue because the only thing which will count will be the class and the rating. Also I hope that you understand that being ok with class stacking you are putting a choice before balance. I really do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfric.9380 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Matchmaker already avoids stacking and distributes between sides. It is way better then befor that poll to lock or not class swap. There is no need to limit it to only one. Double of the same class will happen if a class is played more often, which is usually due to being OP .... But even with this happening if they are not stacked on one side it shall even out in the long run. What is a problem is if MMR is not measured on personal performance. But this is hard to do. At least MMR win/loss should depend on the team averages and thus always be nearly the same, and not on personal MMR compared to oposing team average. And it will be much more accurate if class MMR is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Wolfric.9380" said: > Matchmaker already avoids stacking and distributes between sides. It is way better then befor that poll to lock or not class swap. > There is no need to limit it to only one. Double of the same class will happen if a class is played more often, which is usually due to being OP .... But even with this happening if they are not stacked on one side it shall even out in the long run. > What is a problem is if MMR is not measured on personal performance. But this is hard to do. At least MMR win/loss should depend on the team averages and thus always be nearly the same, and not on personal MMR compared to oposing team average. And it will be much more accurate if class MMR is used. > Except the Mm is being exploited by players to overstack the team with certain classes, players queue on say undesirable classes like Revenant/Ele to have the MM not place another of those classes on their team and then they swap to an overtuned class that is desirable to have multiples of. They need to stop Class swapping and stacking, the sad thing is whoever wrote the Poll for preventing class swapping worded it worse than a 3rd grader and I’m pretty sure based on the average trend of the Gw2 Forum goer half of them probably didn’t understand either option being presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"Wolfric.9380" said: > > Matchmaker already avoids stacking and distributes between sides. It is way better then befor that poll to lock or not class swap. > > There is no need to limit it to only one. Double of the same class will happen if a class is played more often, which is usually due to being OP .... But even with this happening if they are not stacked on one side it shall even out in the long run. > > What is a problem is if MMR is not measured on personal performance. But this is hard to do. At least MMR win/loss should depend on the team averages and thus always be nearly the same, and not on personal MMR compared to oposing team average. And it will be much more accurate if class MMR is used. > > > > Except the Mm is being exploited by players to overstack the team with certain classes, players queue on say undesirable classes like Revenant/Ele to have the MM not place another of those classes on their team and then they swap to an overtuned class that is desirable to have multiples of. > > They need to stop Class swapping and stacking, the sad thing is whoever wrote the Poll for preventing class swapping worded it worse than a 3rd grader and I’m pretty sure based on the average trend of the Gw2 Forum goer half of them probably didn’t understand either option being presented. Oh right, i should have explained how the class stack works just to be sure ( i gave it for granted ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heika.5403 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Taken into account the size of the PvP population in this game, ban stacking will naturally make that players that want to compete with their favorite specialization or the one that they control better try to get it, dispute the right to use it, leave the match if not, etc. How leave the match at that point must be punished being ranked, the final consequency will have the mayority of PvP players avoiding to play rankeds less the hardcore minority. Or in other words, an empty ranked queue with the same few players there matching between them all the time and the unranked queue plenty of players and healthier. But hey, if that is what you want go with it. What you can be sure is that you can't force people to play what they don't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Heika.5403" said: > Taken into account the size of the PvP population in this game, ban stacking will naturally make that players that want to compete with their favorite specialization or the one that they control better try to get it, dispute the right to use it, leave the match if not, etc. How leave the match at that point must be punished being ranked, the final consequency will have the mayority of PvP players avoiding to play rankeds less the hardcore minority. Or in other words, an empty ranked queue with the same few players there matching between them all the time and the unranked queue plenty of players and healthier. > > But hey, if that is what you want go with it. What you can be sure is that you can't force people to play what they don't want. You will be able to play the class you want. Simply you won't be put together with another class like yours. Feel free to explain how this will be forcing you into playing different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heika.5403 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > Taken into account the size of the PvP population in this game, ban stacking will naturally make that players that want to compete with their favorite specialization or the one that they control better try to get it, dispute the right to use it, leave the match if not, etc. How leave the match at that point must be punished being ranked, the final consequency will have the mayority of PvP players avoiding to play rankeds less the hardcore minority. Or in other words, an empty ranked queue with the same few players there matching between them all the time and the unranked queue plenty of players and healthier. > > > > But hey, if that is what you want go with it. What you can be sure is that you can't force people to play what they don't want. > > You will be able to play the class you want. > Simply you won't be put together with another class like yours. > > Feel free to explain how this will be forcing you into playing different. In the way I was thinking in how the MM should work yes. In the way I think you are planning, the time waiting for each match could be unaceptable. If letting choose the profession after the players being selected by their elo/rank takes several minutes. Find enough players with predefined different professions could be imposible at some times because people usually tend to play the same trend specialization and the queue should be governed by how much time you are in the queue to avoid that any player can stay forever waiting with others simply closing and doing something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link.1049 Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Wolfric.9380" said: > I don´t think double class is a problem unless a class overperforms significant without much counter ... So...you mean this meta then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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