Thief need a REWORK like memser

[MUDse.7623]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?

> > thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

>

> i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.

 

this now sounds alot better and not as much asking for nerfs as previous ones. but still for giving up the mobility thief will need other kind of defense, depending on how that will be tied into weapon abilities or not, it again can become unfun to play against.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

[MUDse.7623]

instead of increasing the ini for it, i would prefer to revert an old change and make it switch to LS allways not just on hit. this way we would enable pre casting FS again for more offensive start, but you cant spamm it anymore for evades and would open up a counter play by baiting FS.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

Sure sound like a good solution. I think the problem with thief is the spamming like the headshot build from 3 headshot and you are almost done for build. the daze/stun is to much. (also on warrior and so but this is a theif post)

[Slugonaut.9841]

Just make 15 Initiative baseline and call it a day :)

[will de grijze jager.6594]

.....................

[BrokenGlass.9356]

My idea would be to make each weapon skill work with ammo.

 

Each initiative skill will start at 2 ammo.

 

Skills at 0 ammo are still usable at reduced effectiveness and initiative cost. Each skill always costs initiative.

 

Skills at 3 ammo and above have increased effectiveness. Each additional stack takes progressively longer to build up. Ammo maxes at 5 recharges.

 

When combat starts, cooldown on weapons are reset.

 

Example for Cloak and Dagger:

 

Ammo = 0

- stealth duration reduced 50%

- damage reduced 50%

- -2 initiative cost

 

Ammo = 1(5 sec recharge) + 2 (8 sec recharge)

- Normal skill, as is now.

 

Ammo = 3 (15 sec recharge)

- stealth duration increased 10%

- damage increased 5%

 

Ammo = 4 (20 sec recharge)

- stealth duration increased 30%

- damage increased 10%

- removes revealed (icd 3 sec)

 

Ammo = 5 (40 sec recharge)

- stealth duration increased 50%

- damage increased 15%

- blind 1s range 180

- removes revealed (icd 3 sec)

 

 

 

I imagine every skill on every weapon having "stronger" and "weaker" versions. So that waiting for initiative to build up is rewarding. This will open the risk reward relationship with thief weapons. And also encourage weapon swaps.

 

If I want to save up to hit you with a ammo 4 heartseeker.... Then I could be shooting you with rifle while that ammo builds up.

 

Let's me load my glass cannon.

 

So, while thief is amazingly mobile, this makes us more and more dangerous the more we fight a target.

 

Ya know, like a trained assassin, watching for openings and weaknesses....

[MUDse.7623]

so starting at 2 ammo i need 75 seconds to reach 5 ammo version. you must be playing a different game then i do, cause rarely a fight will take this long.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

intersting idea, But the skills will be still spamable. At the moment that is the problem with thief there daze/stuns are spamable there evade and so on(side note mesmer has also the spamable daze/stun problem) Next to the mobility. I think that my whole problem would be gone if 1 of the 2 would be gone.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> so starting at 2 ammo i need 75 seconds to reach 5 ammo version. you must be playing a different game then i do, cause rarely a fight will take this long.

 

Clearly, I don't have the devs tools at hand to test the changes, so the cooldown recharge is simply inflated numbers to show what I *mean* clearly the numbers would be different in actual applications.

 

Take a skill like 'death blossom'.

 

If death blossom *only* did evade when down to 0 ammo... Then you could still twitch that skill and use it for extra dodges. But, spamming.... Much less attractive.

 

Ammo 0- 6sec recharge

- 0 damage

- 0 conditions

- cost 2 inititave.

 

Ammo 2+3 (4+8 sec recharge)

- no changes

 

Ammo 4 (10 sec recharge)

- increase direct damage of this skill by 25%

- increase condi duration of this skill by 50%

 

Ammo 5 (15 sec recharge)

- increase direct damage of this skill 50%

- increase condi duration of this skill 100%

 

The idea here is simple: punish spamming, without removing the ability to spam. Reward saving skills, without making them scale so much that a heartseeker becomes a m7 DJ crit.

 

Look at a skill like 'unload'.

 

Ammo 0- 4sec recharge

- time between attacks increased 100% number of attacks decreased by 50% (aim is to reduce it below auto attack dps)

- cost 2 initiative.

 

Ammo 1+2- 5+8 sec recharge

- as per skill now

 

Ammo 3- 15 sec recharge

- reduce time between shots 20%

- add an extra final shot that does more damage. (like 100 blades)

 

Ammo 4- 20 sec recharge

- reduce time between shots 30%

- add final strike

- gain a stacking buff, for each shot that connects, gain +10 precision and ferocity for 5sec. Effect stacks.

 

Ammo 5- 25 sec recharge

- reduce time between shots 40%

- final strike x2

- stacking buff

- regain 2 initiative

 

 

 

Again the CD's for recharge time would need to be balanced.

 

I don't see this as a playstyle where you'd wait for 5 charges on everything and burst a fool. I see this more as a change to the incentives. We'd fight the same ways we do now... But be rewarded for fighting with intelligence.

 

That headshot you've been waiting to hit all fight to knock out that heal gets to 5 charges, because your opponent tried to kite you? Well

... Now it's a knockdown and 10 stacks of confuse.

 

That heartseeker that's gone unused during the fight, stacked up to 5, now has evade frames, and gains bonus damage based on spend inititave, and leaps further.

 

There's tons of potential here.

 

Also, imagine traits reducing recharge cd. Or changing the way skills scale with ammo. This would open whole new vista's for thief players.

 

[will de grijze jager.6594]

Thief need a rework, because of the spam shit that they can do. Make them maybe like 2 ammo skills with a normal cd then they have a bit more then normal classes but, cant spam like they can do now.

[HyperLooser.2698]

Thief overall is pretty much 1 button pony and the utility skills are just simple utility, which you very rarely even use in pve and as others pointed out, those utility skills also have fairly high cds.

 

I keep trying and wanting to play a thief, but its just so bland compared to other classes, both visually as well mechanically.

 

Overall thief is a pvp char and just going Unload quick farming char in pve.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> sorry you are right, but the mobility is still to much on thief. i know that there are other classes with insane mobility but thief is the king of having insane mobility. The classes that you mentioned are killable even if they are good, but a really good thief is **almost** uncatchable. In my option you should be or high damage or mobile not both at the same time. If you have both then you should be mid damage and mid mobility. That would be good design.

 

Let's separate WvW and PvP.

 

In PvP Conquest, how is the Thief's mobility such an advantage?

How is the Thief's ability to escape and run such an advantage?

 

The Thief uses mobility for three reasons...

1. To run away from a fight in order to survive

2. To run to an empty point

3. To run to help teammates who are not outnumbered

 

For the first reason, a Thief that is running away from a fight is worse than choosing any other profession. A Thief cannot sustain a fight, so it is forced to run away. That doesn't help its team gain or defend points.

 

For the second reason, the Thief is literally running to a place where there will be no fighting. In this case, a Thief may as well have no attacks or defenses at all. This is assuming that there is even an empty point to run to.

 

For the third reason, a Thief is using his mobility to give an advantage to his team's fights. It's to add an advantage to a fight, not to make the fight even. This can be done by any profession, and the offensive boost will be bigger... the only advantage the Thief adds is speed. This is assuming that there is even a fight where the Thief's team has an equal or greater number.

 

Now, in WvW, the ability to run away and reset fights may be more advantageous. But in PvP, it's not much more than a nuisance.

 

Yes, the Thief is slippery. I understand that. They're also pathetic fighters on point. If the goal is to hold a point, the Thief is at an automatic disadvantage no matter how mobile they are. And no matter how hard they hit, they don't hit hard enough to take a point alone.

 

The Thief is a disruptor. It's not a destroyer. It may not be easy to kill, but it doesn't have to be. As long as a Thief cannot take a point, its mobility and escapability are naturally balanced out. It's like playing Tic-Tac-Toe, if there are two competent players, there should never be a victory. Unfortunately, in Conquest, a draw is a loss for the Thief.

[Kageseigi.2150]

I'm all for a Thief rework, but the best place to begin is to find out what the purpose of a Thief is and why it was designed the way it was.

 

Initiative System:

Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy.

 

You can say the initiative system gives the Thief an advantage. In part, that's correct. But that's not the Thief's fault. Personally, it's the main reason I play Thief. It is definitely the most realistic of any system. It mirrors fighting games (Street Fighter, Tekken, etc.). It allows the player to choose what to do instead of being pigeon-holed into arbitrary combinations like the traditional MMO. Personally, I say give EVERY profession the initiative system. Then you can balance around around a single system instead of trying to balance one around another. If GW2 combat was a hairstyle, the initiative system really would be a "cowlick" that really does go against the grain.

 

However, the Thief is in desperate need of the adaptability of the initiative system. The Thief is too weak defensively to be limited to skill cooldowns and lockouts. The Thief's power is already lacking because of the "spammability" of the initiative system. Are some skills out of balance with others? Of course! But that's from poor skill design, not the spammable nature of the initiative system.

 

Skill Balance:

What is really needed in terms of the initiative system is better balance of skills. Better variety and diversity. For example, why does Shadow Show contain high damage, an unblockable teleport, and a blind with no cast time when Dancing Dagger contains less than half the damage and only applies Cripple and Torment... or Body Shot only gives Immobilize and Vulnerability, and both the latter skills have cast times? Even comparing Shadow Shot to Backstab, one is is a ranged attack with no direct cooldown while the other is limited to Stealth access as well as having both a miss-cooldown and a hit-cooldown (through Revealed)... and Backstab hits for less than Shadow Shot from the front. And beyond even single-skill balance is the entire weapon-set balance. Heartseeker and Black Powder are extremely limited unless they are both present, which comes only on one weapon set.

 

Only one weapon set has on-demand Stealth. Only one weapon set has boon-theft. Only one weapon has mobility. For core-Thief, only one weapon set has ranged damage.

 

Why is Heartseeker+Black Powder be the most efficient method of Stealth? The Thief was designed around Stealth and Evasion. Why isn't Stealth more available from a weapon-set aspect? Cloak and Dagger may be cheaper to enter Stealth, it is much more difficult and risky to actually achieve Stealth, it also holds less potential. CnD is not on-demand. It requires successfully attacking with a melee strike, which takes away a lot of Stealth's advantages (the enemy knows you're right on top of them). CnD also has no Stealth-stacking ability which would allow Shadow Arts traits to be used to their potential.

 

Suggestions:

The expansions have made everything more complex, making balance more difficult to achieve. But for the Thief, I would argue for going back to the core design decisions for the Thief. Make it a stealthy, evasive, hit-and-run profession. Glass cannon is definitely the proper term. I would argue for expanding the initiative system instead of limiting it. How to do so? Well, that's a personal preference.

 

I would be open to a universal initiative system for the Thief. That is, make everything initiative-based. Utilities included. However, that would be a pain to balance, and it would mean an entire overhaul for utilities.

 

If the goal is to limit spamming of skills, then perhaps give an incentive to use a variety of skills. Perhaps give a bonus for using all of your skills before you repeat one. Or perhaps lowering the the initiative cost of a skill by one if you used a different skill last.

 

For Stealth, why not make it more accessible? Perhaps remove the damage portion on Cloak and Dagger so you can stack Stealth. Have a successful hit give you a damage bonus to your next attack instead.

 

Another Stealth possibility, have an "F3" button (either time-based cooldown or initiative-draining) that stacks Stealth for every second that you remain motionless and untouched. Basically, a self-Shadow Refuge. It won't be much help when actually in combat, but it would allow more tactical use of Stealth for pre-combat... which is how the Thief is supposed to operate.

 

As for combat ability, perhaps scale a Thief's fighting ability to how many enemies or allies are nearby. It actually seems like a good option for a trait choice. Three traits to choose from. One grants you a bonus when outnumbered, one grants a bonus when in the majority, and one grants a bonus when fighting 1v1.

 

Perhaps you could scale a Thief's fighting ability based on its health. At 100%, it should be very lethal. At 75%, it should have average power. At 50%, it shouldn't be able to do much other than stun and control. At 25%, it needs to rely on evasion and mobility to escape.

 

Conclusion:

Yes, the traitlines and weapon sets need to have their own unique flavors and purposes. But there needs to be some universal themes to all Thieves. The ability to Steal isn't enough. Stealth, evasion, mobility, lethality, but at the cost of sustainability. If a Thief cannot sustain a fight on point, it should have a decent shot at setting up a successful ambush that can spike a lone target down quickly. In other words, the Thief should have an initial advantage, but should quickly be disadvantaged. Unfortunately, there are far too many passives and "I win" buttons in the game for even a good ambush to be effective.

 

But as for the initiative system, it is the greatest thing about the Thief. It makes the game play much more like a fighting game instead of an MMO. Personally, I wish it would go even further, so the game would feel more like Ninja Gaiden... where it's more about adapting than it is about resource management.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

 

Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

 

Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

 

Also, this. So much this:

 

"Initiative System:

Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

 

 

Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

the only thing wrong with thief is its lack of roles. It doesn't do anything but dps and burst, whether its condi or power. its all the same. But other than that, the thief class is put together well and is cohesive with its traits. I've seen a bunch of threads asking for reworks for a bunch of solid classes and it just seems people are just bored with their class and want something fresh. Rev is the only class that I think needs a legitimate rework, almost from the ground up.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:

> > @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

>

> Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

>

> Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

>

> Also, this. So much this:

>

> "Initiative System:

> Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

>

>

> Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

 

> @"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:

> > @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

>

> Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

>

> Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

>

> Also, this. So much this:

>

> "Initiative System:

> Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

>

>

> Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

 

Both of you guys are saying the same was meant to. How it is now it is far from what was meant and you both are thief main right? Then you know that it is spamming now s/d skills before that it was spamming interupped from d/p. It is true that it was meant to be like what you guys say but now it is really far from that. Rev has kind of the same like thief but a better system. That is how the thief should have been like and not how it's now. You can agree with me that it is far form what it was meant.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> the only thing wrong with thief is its lack of roles. It doesn't do anything but dps and burst, whether its condi or power. its all the same. But other than that, the thief class is put together well and is cohesive with its traits. I've seen a bunch of threads asking for reworks for a bunch of solid classes and it just seems people are just bored with their class and want something fresh. Rev is the only class that I think needs a legitimate rework, almost from the ground up.

 

The only thing what they should chance about rev is the cd give all the skills only a cd of like 4-10 s and the engery system will not allow them to spam the skills what the theif systeem does allow them to do. What you say that the thief class is well cohesive with it's trait, from the first week of gw2 people did ask to chance the thief and mesmer because of how the were made. They were both made around stealth and that is juist a bad mech. Everything has a counter in gw2 except stealth(yes you have some skills that reveal, but there are to few options for that.) You can counter blonks with unblockables, you can counter reflex wiht beam attacks and go on like that.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> Both of you guys are saying the same was meant to. How it is now it is far from what was meant and you both are thief main right? Then you know that it is spamming now s/d skills before that it was spamming interupped from d/p. It is true that it was meant to be like what you guys say but now it is really far from that. Rev has kind of the same like thief but a better system. That is how the thief should have been like and not how it's now. You can agree with me that it is far form what it was meant.

 

Yes, the Thief CAN spam skills. But if a Thief spams skills, that Thief dies quickly. Please name a single skill that the Thief has that can lead to PvP victory by spamming.

 

I can't speak for Daredevil or Deadeye, but core Thief doesn't have an "I win" button. Headshot spam doesn't kill anyone with core Thief. It can only deny attacks/stomps/revives. Flanking Strike+Larcenous Strike may hit hard, but it is slow and drains initiative like crazy. Heartseeker spam is pointless unless the target is low on health. Death Blossom spam is difficult to control and the bleeds are easily cleansed. The worst spam skill that I've seen is Unload.

 

And the main reason why Thief skills NEED to be spammable is Infiltrator's Arrow. Without it, the Thief loses PvP viability. Also, Black Powder+Heartseeker+Heartseeker+Heartseeker+Heartseeker.

 

There's a reason why the standard Thief attack combination was D/P 31111113111111. By far, the auto-attack was the most spammed and effective skill the Thief had.

 

 

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> Everything has a counter in gw2 except stealth(yes you have some skills that reveal, but there are to few options for that.)

 

Stealth is definitely poorly developed. The Thief has consistently been losing advantage after advantage from Stealth. Not only do very few Thief builds have decent access to Stealth, Thieves have nothing to counter Stealth unlike many other professions do. Other professions have been given skilled to reveal Stealth enemies. Other professions have been given more access to Stealth.

 

Stealth is annoying to fight against. I get it. But in PvP, Stealth does little more than mask an escape or to make an enemy lose a target lock. As far as using it offensively, a Thief without access to Stealth may very well be the most vulnerable to attacks from Stealth.

 

Honestly, the Thief should be the undisputed king of Stealth. It should have more universal access to Stealth. It should be able to track targets who are Stealthed. It should have more counters to Stealth.

 

But really, a Thief without Stealth is already too weak to fight on point. A Thief with Stealth cannot hold a point. And a Thief who attacks from Stealth is Revealed for 4 seconds, making it weak until it can get back into Stealth.

 

I just don't really see what your idea of a "Thief rework" would be. You seem to be against Stealth, evasion, and skill spam... all of which keeps the Thief too weak to fight in PvP to begin with. Sure, the Thief may excel as a roamer in WvW, but in PvP, it's an extreme underdog in a fight. Which leads us to a dilemma. If you weaken the Thief in WvW, you destroy it completely in PvP. If you strengthen it in PvP, you make even more people cry in WvW.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > @"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:

> > > @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > > A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

> >

> > Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

> >

> > Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

> >

> > Also, this. So much this:

> >

> > "Initiative System:

> > Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

> >

> >

> > Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

>

> > @"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:

> > > @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > > A way of getting the thief to a more normal level would be increase the cost of sword evade skill they cna evade atleast 3 time or more with it. in addicion with the other dodges and blocks they almost can perma evade or block.

> >

> > Um. . . ranger/warrior/engi/guard having the ability to negate damage for pretty serious (5-10s+) chunks of time is no better. . . .our evades are actually probably a bit worse because they do contain punishment frames (however small.)

> >

> > Seems to me that the thief's 3 main build directions are stealth, damage, and evade/mobility. It's not bad design for the class for every thief build to have to balance between those three main abilities. It's what a rogue class is meant to be.

> >

> > Also, this. So much this:

> >

> > "Initiative System:

> > Yes, you can call it "spammy," but that is extremely superficial. Yes, skills can be spammed. But that is not why the initiative system was designed. It was given to the Thief specifically because the Thief was always meant to be an adaptable playstyle. It was meant to be able to do whatever it needed to do at whatever time it needed to do it. It was not designed to be played as though it was on repetitive macros or rhythms. It's "fly by the seat of your pants." As the trait's name implies, it's all about improvisation. It's about reacting and countering your enemy."

> >

> >

> > Our ability to adapt to various situations is the core of what makes this class work. It's why most (not all) of our utilities do little to no damage, why we have a nonCD attack system, why our HP is so low. . . we are meant to be able to make on-the-fly decisions based on whatever situation presents itself, then pay the price if we decide wrong.

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> Both of you guys are saying the same was meant to. How it is now it is far from what was meant and you both are thief main right? Then you know that it is spamming now s/d skills before that it was spamming interupped from d/p. It is true that it was meant to be like what you guys say but now it is really far from that. Rev has kind of the same like thief but a better system. That is how the thief should have been like and not how it's now. You can agree with me that it is far form what it was meant.

 

I get what you are saying, but straight up spamming ANY skill on thief will get you dead against a decent (not good, but decent) player. D/p headshot is countered by stability and dodging. S/d 3 can be dodged, plus lacks stealth. P/p 3 has a super long, interuptable channel and the set has no no escape potential. DJ on rifle takes a good bit of time to set up for a strong hit. . . .point is, our skills can be countered, and overextending and spending all our init to spam out single skills means that if they don't land, we are dead. That's the risk/reward element that our class is built around. We don't have huge aoe's, we don't have a ton of cleave, what we do have is the ability to pick a target, dump as much damage as possible, then get away (if we are lucky) if kitten goes bad. Again, it's a rogue class. That playstyle is, traditionally, what a rogue is.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

 

> I get what you are saying, but straight up spamming ANY skill on thief will get you dead against a decent (not good, but decent) player. D/p headshot is countered by stability and dodging. S/d 3 can be dodged, plus lacks stealth. P/p 3 has a super long, interuptable channel and the set has no no escape potential. DJ on rifle takes a good bit of time to set up for a strong hit. . . .point is, our skills can be countered, and overextending and spending all our init to spam out single skills means that if they don't land, we are dead. That's the risk/reward element that our class is built around. We don't have huge aoe's, we don't have a ton of cleave, what we do have is the ability to pick a target, dump as much damage as possible, then get away (if we are lucky) if kitten goes bad. Again, it's a rogue class. That playstyle is, traditionally, what a rogue is.

 

Thief spam 2 3 2 and go out and repeat. I'm in plat all the time and see thief only really use 2 and 3 on sd and get out the fight because of the condi they do on the trait they keep the enemy in combit and do thsi again after like less then 5 seconds. If that is not spamming i don't know it anymore. I think i would have a lesser problem if there skill 3 on sd wasn't a evade and unblockable at the same time you can say dodge it, sure but after 4 time skill 2 and 3 is even dd or ranger with full evade build out of dodges.

 

[will de grijze jager.6594]

 

> Honestly, the Thief should be the undisputed king of Stealth. It should have more universal access to Stealth. It should be able to track targets who are Stealthed. It should have more counters to Stealth.

 

stealth was a bad mech form the start so i would say remove stealth and give thief a rework for the removing stealth part. (Mesmer shouldn't have stealth either)

 

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> Thief spam 2 3 2 and go out and repeat. I'm in plat all the time and see thief only really use 2 and 3 on sd and get out the fight because of the condi they do on the trait they keep the enemy in combit and do thsi again after like less then 5 seconds. If that is not spamming i don't know it anymore. I think i would have a lesser problem if there skill 3 on sd wasn't a evade and unblockable at the same time you can say dodge it, sure but after 4 time skill 2 and 3 is even dd or ranger with full evade build out of dodges.

 

I'm just making sure I am getting this correct. You want to fundamentally change the way the Thief works because they jump into a fight, attack once, then jump back out?

 

You do understand why they do this, correct? Because they are so incredibly weak, they can't stay in the fight any longer or they will get swatted like a fly.

 

I'm not sure what conditions you speak of. The only condition is Immobilize. If they have Panic Strike traited, then they can apply poison. That's it.

 

That's literally what they are... a nuisance like a fly. Those are not the Thief players you need to be worried about.

 

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> stealth was a bad mech form the start so i would say remove stealth and give thief a rework for the removing stealth part. (Mesmer shouldn't have stealth either)

 

Again, I can't speak for the elites, but most core Thief builds severely lack access to Stealth for any duration of time... especially out of combat Stealth. D/P is the only build that can achieve it without sacrificing utilities. The only other Stealth access is x/D, and that is 3 seconds of combat Stealth. It's initiative expensive and requires a successful attack. Without Shadow Arts traited, Stealth doesn't do much other than annoy. And honestly, Stealth should be MUCH more annoying. So yes, I agree it's not in good condition. I would completely overhaul the Stealth mechanic.

 

Personally, I love the idea of a "Shadow Realm" or "Ethereal Plane" where Stealthed players enter. A Stealthed player could see every non-Stealthed player, but could also see/sense other Stealthed players. Striking other Stealthed players would not cause you to be Revealed. This would allow completely invisible battles from the perspective of those not Stealthed.

[eldrjth.7384]

I think skills that offer util as thier primary function such as CC and escapes, shouldnt be on the weapon slot since it eats into dps potential too much. This leads to some skills rarely seeing usage in typical play. Utility powers also cost too much ini compared to what they offer, and that was solely designed to prevent spamming of the power.

 

If some weapon skills were given cooldown on top of still costing initiative it might as allow for **burstier** attacks without fear of dps going out of control. It also allows certain skills with utils baked in like pulls/daze/knockdown/evades to be used without being OP.

 

My suggestion is to relocate skills that are utilities to the profession skill slots (next to steal) and where they would become cool down based ad have zero initiative cost. This would make them operate somewhat like equipping kits for engineer but instead happens with weapons for thief. This would fill up profession bar with up to 3 powers since steal/use of steal skill already takes up 2. This would innately add cooldown to skills that would otherwise are deemed too OP to have zero cooldown and would rarely see any usage if on the weapons slot. Also it opens up the possibility for more **actual ** dmg powers added into each weapon set maybe to give situational adv, for instance aoe, creating/finishing combo fields and low cost powers designed to replace autos.

 

 

 

[ScottBroChill.3254]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> The only thing what they should chance about rev is the cd give all the skills only a cd of like 4-10 s and the engery system will not allow them to spam the skills what the theif systeem does allow them to do. What you say that the thief class is well cohesive with it's trait, from the first week of gw2 people did ask to chance the thief and mesmer because of how the were made. They were both made around stealth and that is juist a bad mech. Everything has a counter in gw2 except stealth(yes you have some skills that reveal, but there are to few options for that.) You can counter blonks with unblockables, you can counter reflex wiht beam attacks and go on like that.

 

Maybe the energy system, if improved upon, would be a more balanced system than the initiative system, but that doesn't change the fact that rev is all over the place in its design that it lacks any focus to get anything done. It lacks adaptability and variety and the only reason it works is because number buffs and gimmicky skills. Taking out numbers and everything for all classes and just looking how the professions function on a mechanical level, rev have the worst implementation of design that you can tell wasn't polished up enough to be delivered how it was. And this is more from the standpoint of its core skills, which can hardly be called functioning efficiently because its only balanced with the addition of elite specs. It lacks so much with its core skills and traits. Also two other points that support it not being implemented well is that at a last minutes notice they switched rev from a one weapon set class to a two weapon set class. Its weapons were designed as standalones that would coincide with spammy utilities, but it sucked so bad and people gave such poor feedback that they gave revs weapon swap which threw off the whole design around spamming utilities because now there were more weapon skills with more functions. So they had to increase cooldowns and energy costs which made the energy system overkill at that point. And then they couldn't even implement more than half of the legends for underwater combat because it was a half baked idea that would have required to many resources to make the legends work underwater. You'll often hear that the revs spear is the best weapon it has design wise because it was created with the original revenant design in which it was the only weapon avaiable, so it has damage and added utility, basically an all around good weapon that makes up for the lack of a second weapon. But even if they made rev a single weapon set class again, they would have to redesign the hammer to have more utility and probably bring back the old off-hand sword skills, as well as adjusting numbers for every single skill and trait available.

 

This is what I mean by the rev having design issues and needing an update the most. They can balance the numbers so its usable and viable in raids, but its playstyle and skills were designed for a whole different style of gameplay that didnt work out and not its just a mess and hodgepodge of creative ideas that were never fleshed out fully. And even then, the legends are extremely dissonant and often work against each other.

 

Thief has none of these extreme design flaws. It has variety flaws in which everything it has is designed around pure dps, but how the class functions is fine. They just need to do something support wise with the next elite spec instead of going a different dps route. But they will probably give them a condi dps spec instead.