Kageseigi.2150

> @"Highlie.7641" said: > Your underestimating the amount of rupts my meme build had > > Steal, Swd stealth 1, S.Wire x 2. bandits defense, Sb 4, s/p 3, headshot. > > 24 init regen and a kitten ton of might, what could go wrong. Don't let your memes be dreams! Let's bring it back! And let's make it better! =)

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > The change that would encourage ""passive"" (from the point of view of the opponent) playstyle A predator doesn't concern itself with the opinion of its prey... especially when the prey is throwing bricks in their own glass houses. > where you stack everything out of combat -after this change First, what can a Thief even stack out of combat through 12 initiative and 100 endurance? 1. **12 ini:** Black Powder + Heartseeker/Cluster Bomb allows 6 seconds of Stealth for D/P or x/P + SB 2. **6 ini + 100 end:** Bounding Dodger + Black Powder allows 6 seconds of Stealth for Daredevils 3. **10 ini:** Sniper's Cover + Death's Retreat allows 3 seconds of Stealth for Deadeyes 4. **100 end:** Silent Scope allows 2 seconds of Stealth for Deadeyes (4 seconds with Shadow Arts) 5. **8 ini:** Infiltrator's Strike/Return allows for 6 seconds of Swiftness for S/x 6. **100 end:** Expeditious Dodger allows for 12 seconds of Swiftness with Acrobatics 7. **100 end:** Unhindered Combatant allows for 20 seconds of Swiftness with Acrobatics That's basically what a Thief can stack without hitting a target. A lot of Stealth and Swiftness. Stealth stacking only allows for the Thief to have more opportunity to choose the best moment to engage. It doesn't matter if the Thief has 3 seconds of Stealth or 20 seconds, as soon as he strikes the target, all benefits of Stealth stacking disappear. Being able to get the first strike in is very important for a Thief, and should not be discouraged. Swiftness stacking for combat just allows for kiting and pursuing targets, exactly what a Thief should be able to do. While Swiftness can help to disengage, dashing Daredevils are already loaded with Swiftness in excess to do just that. Yes, there are other benefits that can be gained be resetting initiative (mainly first-strike on-hit bonuses or having an initial 4-seconds of a Daredevil's dodge benefits... they don't stack), but those are very niche. > pretty much for free- Possibly free, but at a risk. If the Thief does NOT make the first strike, then the Thief does not get the initiative and endurance back. > and then still receive an initiative refill allowing you to front-load even more dmg Exactly. That is the way of the Thief. To hit hard and to hit fast. If you can hit hard enough fast enough, you may be able to panic your target into making mistakes. That has been the philosophy ever since I started playing this game... the longer the fight goes on, the more of a disadvantage for the Thief. > (or make escaping easier, *dealer's choice*). A Thief can always escape, but a Thief cannot always kill. By resetting the Thief's initiative, you're giving the Thief more ability to actually fight, and by resetting the Thief's endurance, you're allowing the Thief to extend the fight before having to decide whether to press the attack or to withdraw. > Doesn't sound like a reasonable change at all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Many Thief players (including myself) believe that many unreasonable changes have been made against the Thief. For example... 1. It was unreasonable to increase Infiltrator's Arrow's initiative cost by 33% 2. It was unreasonable to add a daze to Choking Gas and increase its initiative cost by 75% 3. It was unreasonable to destroy Feline Grace in order to give Daredevil a third dodge (and make people pay for it) 4. It was unreasonable to remove the ability to shorten Heartseeker's leap 5. It was unreasonable to remove the ability to jump-cast Infiltrator's Strike 6. It was unreasonable to double the interval time of Black Powder blinding 7. It was unreasonable to make Swipe unblockable and halve the range compared to Steal 8. It was unreasonable to remove Lead Attacks' ability to stack Out of Combat Many seemingly unreasonable things have happened against the Thief. It's about time for something good, whether reasonable or seemingly unreasonable, to happen in the Thief's favor.

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > So you suggest wasting all the AoEs and cleaves available on potshots, because the enemy team's Thief might be around you capping a point? If you're sitting on a point, and a Thief isn't visibly also on the point, what does it matter? If a Thief is sitting in Stealth while you're capping a point, and you are on a profession that is normally not glass, then a decent Thief is likely going to wait for you to leave so he can decap quickly. If you are just sitting on point for defense, then a good Thief isnt going to attack you because he has better things to do. Now, if you actually have reason to suspect a Thief is present (or he's already shown himself) then using some skills (traps, etc.) Is not wasting cooldowns. Auto-attacking costs absolutely nothing, and is effective if the Thief gets close. Then again, if you do nothing to defend against a Stealth Attack, so what? It's not going to kill you. You've still got all of your skills off cooldown. And now, the Thief is visible for counter-attack. Thieves are not designed to be fighters in this game. They are designed to annoy and frustrate. If you knock them down to 20% health, and they disappear, so what? Just sit on point long enough to secure it, then continue to rotate. The purpose of Conquest is to secure points, not to kill. Thieves cannot secure points or kill independently. They can only steal points that are unsecure. The purpose of the Thief is to stop the bleeding, that is all. The old sports saying "take what the defense gives you" is literally the philosophy of the Thief. Most professions can impose their will on the battlefield. Not the Thief. The Thief must manipulate the will of others. It is the digital manifestation of the principles of Ju and Aiki. If a Thief can get you to chase him off point, he has won. If he makes you frustrated because you can't see him or kill him, he has achieved his goal. It's a pathetic goal, but it's all a Thief has... which is what I want to change.

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > What is strong about Stealth in a PvP match? > Is this a rhetorical question? Not rhetorical at all. 1. A Thief in Stealth cannot fight 2. A Thief in Stealth cannot contest a point > The fact that you can't just hit someone seemingly out of nowhere because Stealth literally makes players invisible without any way of detection? A Thief gets one strike out of Stealth. That's it. Aegis cancels that out. Unless it's some insane glass build against some insane glass build, one strike barely makes a dent. It's good against an AFKer, but what isn't? Two strikes from the opponent downs the Thief. Besides, there are defenses against Stealth. Constant auto-attacks do work. So does AoE. Marks, Wells, Traps... they all provide an initial defense, and they are extremely effective at countering a possible Stealth ambush. > The fact that people safely can run away, because they literally can't be seen in Stealth? Infiltrator's Arrow and Shadowstep are/were superior skills to escape. Stealth is an escape tool, but it's definitely not "safe." There are legions of dead Thieves who took their final breaths while invisible. Besides, like I said, a Thief can't fight or contest a point in Stealth. If you're using it as an escape tool, you've already lost. The "I can't kill a Thief" is an anti-Thief whine. Is that the point of the game? To kill your opponent? If that's the case, then NOBODY has any room to complain more than Thieves. > And then Thieves have all the Shadow Arts bonuses that can be added to Stealth. Yes, bonuses that require Stealth. Again, every second a Thief is in Stealth is a second surrendered to the enemy. If you're in Stealth, you've either lost or you're in the process of losing. Stealth is great for repositioning or hiding or setting up an initial strike. That's it. I'd much prefer to have more evades or invulnerabilties or natural mitigation. Besides, to take Shadow Arts, you have to give up another traitline that is more combat oriented... that you can actually use 100% of a match, whether in Stealth or not. In other words, you can play to hope to win a fight instead of resigning yourself to already losing it. Shadow Arts is better than it used to be for combat, but it's still not good. If they put Hidden Killer and Revealed Training in it, then it may be a different story. If there was a trait to daze or Immobilze or even increase the cooldown on enemy skills on every Stealth Attack... something that can be used to control the enemy when not actually in Stealth, then it would be more balanced as a combat line. Even a trait that would grant a few initiative or endurance on a successful Stealth Attack... or a trait that would double initiative or endurance regeneration while Revealed. Those would make Stealth a lot more useful for combat. It would promote tactical Stealth use, and would remove the incentive for camping in Stealth (if such a thing even exists in today's game).

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > It doesn't need to get any stronger. What is strong about Stealth in a PvP match?

> @"MatyrGustav.6210" said: > But for the record, I do like "While in stealth traits" . I love Regenerating health while in stealth and reappearing with full health. Shadow arts is the main reason i play Thief I'm not against the concept of those traits, just the practical execution. Stealth was much more effective in WvW before mounts and AI that could Reveal you after a couple of seconds. The problem with such traits in PvP is that in the time it takes me to heal up in Stealth, the enemy has already captured the point even though I was standing on it. I would have done much better to just heal up by running away to the next point (exiting combat to heal) than to stay engaged with the same enemy who has had time for skills to cooldown and now has full control over the point. It's really time for ANet to change the rules. Allow a 3-second grace period for a Thief to contest a point while in Stealth. Even if a Thief can't actually capture a point while in Stealth, they should at least be able to contest/defend it.

> @"MatyrGustav.6210" said: > - While in stealth they can produce an Area aura of healing I don't want anymore "While in Stealth" traits... At least not while you can't stay in Stealth for more than 2 seconds without getting Revealed (WvW) or cannot contest points while in Stealth (PvP). There's a reason I play an evasive non-Stealth Thief with no Shadow Arts. Because half of the time, the entire traitline is rendered useless because of the rules/situations. Choosing Shadow Arts is the equivalent of sending a soldier into battle with a fully stocked first aid kit, but without any grenades or extra ammunition. Nobody else has to deal with such foolishness.

I just want an independent Thief that is a truly lethal threat in PvP/WvW. A Thief that can fight, survive, and kill against a single opponent of equal skill/experience (regardless of profession). Maybe not a 50/50 chance in a fair fight, but at least an equal shot if the Thief plays dirty and gets the first strike in. A Thief that is more than just a +1/Decap bot that relies on Shortbow mobility or Stealth. P.S. There used to be a fun "Ninja Nurse" build in WvW, but they gutted it. It was fun to watch an invisible Thief run around in the middle of an enemy zerg, reviving fallen allies... especially when the player had become very proficent at it.

> @"Cynz.9437" said: > They also can't fix it. They may not be able to "fix it" properly, but they can easily improve the consequence. All they need to do is refund the initiative spent if the arrow shoots, but the shadowstep fails. A better solution is to check for an initial valid path before the arrow shoots, and if one is found, then the skill will use a true teleport instead of a shadowstep (which seems to require a second pathfinding operation). Sure, it may allow a Thief a little more flexibility in some situations, but they are rare and limited (shooting an arrow along a cliffside, jumping off the cliff, then transporting back onto the same cliff... again, the arrow would only shoot if there was an initial valid path). > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > He said "8 initiative gone is a death sentence", that assumes a scenario where enemies are around. I can attest that it happens at the most inopportune times, enemies or no. I don't ever remember it happening from a projectile being destroyed, though. It can happen on any given cliff-face/wall/etc. There are no guarantees it will work. However, there are definitely places where it reliably fails including the following... 1. On Legacy of the Foefire, on the "ramp" going from the Blue base toward the Quarry. You can see different colors on the ground (maybe rocks or dirt). If you hit one of those whIle on the move, the skill fails, and you lose initiative. It happens so much, I learned to just not even try IA there. It was better for me to be a bit slower, but have my initiative still intact. 2. On Eternal Coliseum, going from a spawn point to the side node. If you shoot the circular bricks around the columns, you will most likely lose your initiative there. 3. On Forest of Niflhel, on the section between the two bases, you can easily lose initiative if you shoot certain places. I believe it's usually the path or other off-color sections there. It's annoying as can be. I'm sure there are many other places that I've had issues with, but those are the main three that have stuck out so much. And yes, randomly hitting spots like that happens too many times with enemies in pursuit, so I know what he means when he says it's a death sentence.

> @"Exitus.3297" said: > IA was never overperforming. I would like you to find me some evidence of anyone anywhere arguing this seriously. I even did some legwork for you and found literally a single forum post from a year ago where the OP was arguing for a significant nerf to IA: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88551/its-time-to-address-infiltrators-arrow Thank you for posting this. I found the link to my old [unkittening the Thief](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88021/unkittening-the-thief) thread there. It seems as relevant today as it did back then... maybe even more so now.

> How you kill thief? Easy. You show him the Thief section of the latest patch notes, then walk away. Trust me, he dies a little inside each time. Many a Thief are long dead from such a merciless attack.

> @"vardeleanu.8972" said: > thief was, and still is, way more mobile than any other class. Does anyone have any current data on this? Exactly how much mobility/speed advantage does the current Thief have?

> @"appelflap.8310" said: > So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd. > @"saerni.2584" said: > You misunderstand with the idea that this is an 8 second cool down. That is a shared resource pool with all other weapon skills. Exactly this. If Infiltrator's Arrow was ever overperforming (it wasn't), and you absolutely had to put it on an 8-second cooldown, then put it on an actual 8-second cooldown as an F3 function. Remove it from the initiative system like Steal. There, solved. It probably should have been like that in the first place. It would allow a Thief to actually use it to engage/reposition/disengage without completely giving up all of its offensive capabilities. And it would finally allow a Thief to remain viable while wielding two actual combat weapon sets. > @"appelflap.8310" said: > Thief (daredevil) is still a +1/decap after patch, you just need a bit more skill now That's always the excuse and rationale. The Thief player ALWAYS has to "use more skill now"... after EVERY SINGLE PATCH. But why? I chose the Thief when I started playing because it already required the most skill to succeed with... in 2014. I'm tired of it. No... the Thief player shouldn't have to be god-tier just to remain competitive against average players. They just shouldn't have to be. This is a casual game... Thief players who play for years shouldn't be struggling against other players who have played only for months with other professions. Every single time a decent Thief build is found, it gets hammered into the ground. Not just shaved, but hammered. Besides, why should every Thief be forced to play Daredevil just to decap? Daredevil was supposed to be a brawler. Why can't I give up mobility for lethality? Now, there's no choice... lose a significant amount of mobility, yet no more lethality or sustainability. It's a joke. I'm really starting to believe that Consume Plasma was never overpowered. It never turned the Thief into a god. All it did was set the Thief on even footing with other professions, and the actual Thief player's skills were just so much superior, they curb stomped their opposition.