Exitus.3297

I mean I like the idea of interrupts being rewarding in some additional way, but I do think you are underestimating 3 initiative. Where would this be? A passive on Headshot or Tactical Strike or a trait in one of the other trees? Personally, when it comes to initiative, I Would like to see some initiative-return mechanics implemented into the other trees like they used to. Back in Vanilla I didn't even run Trickery because I didn't need to; Shadow Arts had a trait that refunded 2 initiative upon entering stealth (not camping it) and Critical Strikes had a passive where critting every now and again would give 1 initiative. These traits no longer exist so Trickery is basically mandatory...

> @"hanabal lecter.2495" said: > Stay quiet unless you want the mirage treament, you want 1 evade? Honestly I would rather they stop with shortsighted nerfs and actually address the roots of the problem. I personally would ask they revert/lessen the IA nerf and take a look at the Perma-stealth traits of Shadow Arts, namely Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace, that have become such a crutch. P.S. I also personally disagreed with the Mirage treatment; I was however less vocal about it because I'm not as experienced with Mesmers as I am Thieves.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Mauzi.5892" said: > > > @"appelflap.8310" said: > > > So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past. > > > > It is when a rev can port 600 range and do 6k dmg by the side, which can go through walls. > > And it's also a difference how a skill is used. Deathstrike is often used aggressively and applies pressure. Whereas Infiltrator Strike is our means to get away. Which means we decided that the fight is lost for us and we use up all our initiative to do so. > > > > Why did it get nerfed? Because pepegas cry that "the thief got away" and they didn't "feel good". > > > > Then pls nerf all other mobility skills as well. Most of the classes outrun or outstealth thievs. > > > > I agree that the higher cost might be okay for sPvP, because if one team has a thief (that doesn't suck) and the other team doesn't, they can outrotate them and have easier and faster decaps, which makes it "unfair". But even that is a stretch... but I might give it to you... > > For WvW the change is just dumb. > > > > And as other said. Thieves will find another way to replace that or play some other builds or weapon sets. I'm already curious when the crying for another skill will start. > > Maybe Sword 2? Shadowstep OP? Dash? Too much dmg? > > > > > > My suggestion to all thief hater. Make one yourself and play. I bet you 1000g your view will change from "nerf OP thief plxxx" to "thief need a buff". > > Balance is not about how good or bad you feel for winning or losing an encounter. > > > > hey hey hey, who can " Most of the classes outrun or outstealth thievs. " ? > please im really curious. > > goes back to lurking In longer, drawn out "races" I can't think of many classes who can keep up with the Thief. In shorter bursts, there are some classes that keep up with the Thief at least for a little while. Even if a class can't keep up with the Thief in terms of mobility 100% and instead just barely trail behind, that doesn't mean the Thief is safe. Rangers immediately come to mind due to their mobility with the Sword or Greatsword combined with the range on their Longbow. Guardians have a number of blinks that are good for chasing, and if they went DH they also can use Longbow or their Spear class skill to pull the Thief back. Warriors can be deceptively mobile with the Greatsword and Dagger, and they can keep the Thief in a bad spot if they run Magebane Tether. I can list a few more examples, but the point is that in short bursts other classes can keep up with the Thief for a time, at least long enough for it to matter. This is important in sPvP as well because it means these classes can rotate almost as well as the Thief in terms of going from node to node. Keep in mind I'm not saying any of these classes outrun the Thief or even match them as a general rule; I'm saying they can keep up for long enough in some circumstances for it to matter. It is also important to note that these classes, while not being able to keep up in terms of raw mobility, will still have cooldowns to expend after using them because they don't have to manage resources the same way a Thief does.

> @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"appelflap.8310" said: > > So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past. > > It's one use, then waiting for initiative, then using it a second time. Your pool is 15, so you need to wait a second for the initiative and then you can cast it a second time. You might also use a combo with IA + SA/Signet but that might not be 100% reliable. > > You misunderstand with the idea that this is an 8 second cool down. That is a shared resource pool with all other weapon skills. So when you reduce that pool by 8 points you can more accurately say you add a cooldown equal to every skills individual point value equal to or below its point value. Of course, that's an oversimplification too because initiative is not a traditional cooldown. > > But, let's get into the weeds as it were. A player has 15 initiative traited. Every time you use a skill you should think about this calculation: > > (15 - Initiative Currently Expended + Available Raw Initiative) - Cost of Weapon Skill > > If the above number is negative you need to wait for initiative. This means, effectively, your weapon skill is on cooldown. Now, because all your skills have different costs some skills will be on cooldown, while others won't. The disadvantage is that, while you can use other less optimal weapon skills, using those skills will serve to increase the cooldown of more optimal skills also. > > The larger the "Cost of Weapon Skill" is the more likely you will be to find subsequent uses of higher cost skills locked out. Thief doesn't have cool downs so much as thief sometimes has cool downs when initiative is lower than skills require. > > So when you add 2 initiative to a 6 point skill it isn't the same as adding 2 to a 4 point skill. That's because the higher the cost the greater chance of it locking out a greater number of skills. Not all use cases involve full initiative with lots of available initiative regeneration. If you have 10 initiative and use an 8 initiative skill you are now limited to a 2 initiative skill (meaning practically all skills are on cooldown). > > Which brings me to the "Effective Universal Cooldown" balancing test. That is: > > (Cost of Desired Skill - (Available Initiative + Initiative Boosts) < or > (Opportunity Cost of Waiting) > > In plain language, the time to regenerate initiative to use the skill that is optimal for the situation NOW is weighed against the choice between waiting and spending initiative on another skill. However, that choice is difficult because it means the skill you can't cast NOW also won't be available for both the original time period AND the time period of whatever substitute skill. So the choice is really the question of "how badly do I need to use this skill in the immediate future?" > > The more you need to use a skill (which for a teleport may be critical because you need to decap or +1 ASAP) the more you effectively can't use other skills because you can't afford to cut into your pool. So "wait for initiative" unlike waiting for cool downs on other professions means auto attacking while you wait. > > Which is all to say that you can't speak of this as an 8 second cool down unless you ignore the unique initiative system on a fundamental level. This is probably the best way I have ever seen someone explain Initiative in detail.

> @"appelflap.8310" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"appelflap.8310" said: > > > So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past. > > > > It's one use, then waiting for initiative, then using it a second time. Your pool is 15, so you need to wait a second for the initiative and then you can cast it a second time. You might also use a combo with IA + SA/Signet but that might not be 100% reliable. > > > > You misunderstand with the idea that this is an 8 second cool down. That is a shared resource pool with all other weapon skills. So when you reduce that pool by 8 points you can more accurately say you add a cooldown equal to every skills individual point value equal to or below its point value. Of course, that's an oversimplification too because initiative is not a traditional cooldown. > > > > But, let's get into the weeds as it were. A player has 15 initiative traited. Every time you use a skill you should think about this calculation: > > > > (15 - Initiative Currently Expended + Available Raw Initiative) - Cost of Weapon Skill > > > > If the above number is negative you need to wait for initiative. This means, effectively, your weapon skill is on cooldown. Now, because all your skills have different costs some skills will be on cooldown, while others won't. The disadvantage is that, while you can use other less optimal weapon skills, using those skills will serve to increase the cooldown of more optimal skills also. > > > > The larger the "Cost of Weapon Skill" is the more likely you will be to find subsequent uses of higher cost skills locked out. Thief doesn't have cool downs so much as thief sometimes has cool downs when initiative is lower than skills require. > > > > So when you add 2 initiative to a 6 point skill it isn't the same as adding 2 to a 4 point skill. That's because the higher the cost the greater chance of it locking out a greater number of skills. Not all use cases involve full initiative with lots of available initiative regeneration. If you have 10 initiative and use an 8 initiative skill you are now limited to a 2 initiative skill (meaning practically all skills are on cooldown). > > > > Which brings me to the "Effective Universal Cooldown" balancing test. That is: > > > > (Cost of Desired Skill - (Available Initiative + Initiative Boosts) < or > (Opportunity Cost of Waiting) > > > > In plain language, the time to regenerate initiative to use the skill that is optimal for the situation NOW is weighed against the choice between waiting and spending initiative on another skill. However, that choice is difficult because it means the skill you can't cast NOW also won't be available for both the original time period AND the time period of whatever substitute skill. So the choice is really the question of "how badly do I need to use this skill in the immediate future?" > > > > The more you need to use a skill (which for a teleport may be critical because you need to decap or +1 ASAP) the more you effectively can't use other skills because you can't afford to cut into your pool. So "wait for initiative" unlike waiting for cool downs on other professions means auto attacking while you wait. > > > > Which is all to say that you can't speak of this as an 8 second cool down unless you ignore the unique initiative system on a fundamental level. > > My point still is that IA was overperforming and the nerf on it was deserved. Thieves can still stealth on the fly(to disengage, engage or regen initiave safely), they still have the best mobility, they still have the most evades of any class so yeah they shouldn't spam IA 3 times in 4 secs like before patch traveling 2700 range without any utilities, only weapon. After the patch thieves still have sb and shadowstep to travel around the map, the only difference now is that you have to use utilities too like other classes instead of weapon only to travel that fast and that's how it should be. As long as people can't understand how broken this was, they will never be satisfied when something gets nerfed. IA was never overperforming. I would like you to find me some evidence of anyone anywhere arguing this seriously. I even did some legwork for you and found literally a single forum post from a year ago where the OP was arguing for a significant nerf to IA: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88551/its-time-to-address-infiltrators-arrow The OP got ratio'd by nearly everyone in the responses because his arguments were faulty, including that Thieves have the best Mobility and therefor must be nerfed. With all due respect, you seem to be falling into the same trap. It isn't a question of whether or not the Thief has the best mobility; it's a question of whether they have _too much_ mobility, and how it should be solved if they do. Just like it isn't a question of whether a class has the most damage, most team utility or most survivability. It's just a question of it being _too much_. Things are allowed to be strong as long as they aren't _too strong_, or at least brought in line by some kind of weakness. Yes, IA was strong, but so far no one has brought forth any decent arguments as to why it was too strong. Reiterating what others before me have said, using IA costs resources in a pool other weapon skills share, and none of it is returned just by swapping weapons. Any resources they spend on going from Point A to Point B or C is going to be resources they have to wait for before doing damage. Other classes that can keep up with the Thief to a decent degree do not have to make such compromises, but at the same time their kits don't allow them to. That's what makes the Thief unique. Even if anyone did bring forth valid arguments, I don't see how upping the initiative cost to 3 quarters of the Thief's base initiative bar is a valid solution. Now that problem of initiative management when using shortbow is going to be a lot more of a problem, pigeon-holing them into Trickery even harder. You are right about one thing: Thieves are still going to be the most mobile class in the game. Like I said in my OP, Thieves are going to find ways around the nerfs. Whether they swap to perma-stealthing with Shadow's Rejuvenation to balance out the Initiative cost or mashing Heartseeker across the landscape (450 range Leap for 3 initiative), they are going to figure it out, _and nobody, not even the Thief players themselves, are going to like it._ EDIT: Grammar.

In my personal opinion, they need to revert the nerfs (at least to Infiltrator's Arrow, but maybe also Signet) and actually address the problems that Thieves create. One big example I hear, including from other Thieves, is camping stealth (not spamming, camping). This likely means addressing the traits in Shadow Arts that cater to stealth camping (with Shadow's Rejuvenation being the big one).

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > @"Exitus.3297" said: > > When my friend told me about the nerfs, I seriously thought he was trolling. > > > > Then I looked at them and not only did they nerf Infiltrator's Arrow, gutting its mobility, they did it in the most uncreative way possible. On top of that, instead of giving Thieves something to work with in terms of defense to compensate for said nerf in mobility, they nerfed their defense. These nerfs were completely out of the blue. If I had to guess where they were gunna nerf the Thief next, I would said it would have been Shadow Arts due to how much some of the traits that contribute to perma-stealthing are used as a crutch. > > > > It isn't even just about these nerfs (or how out of the blue they are). Remember back on the February Patch when they basically annihilated the Acrobatics traitline, giving the only decent traits 300 seconds? Remember back when everyone was saying that they are just going to be "placeholders" until they can find something better to do with them? They're still there, untouched, virtually unusable in any PvP scenario. Meanwhile, in the land of Deadeye, their PvP rotation literally consists of spamming Skirmisher's Shot over and over until they hit 7 Malice with Maleficent 7, get off a stealth attack, and rinse and repeat ad nauseam. It has been this way since February and it has yet to be touched. The sad part is that the only reason Deadeyes do this is because it is the only realistic way they can do significant damage. I could go on > > > > Then the OP mentioned that there are no Devs that play Thief. I have no idea how true this is, but at this point I don't doubt it. No Dev in their right mind who even plays Thief would even let this slide. > > > > I thought for awhile about what other alternatives I could take, and to be quite honest. I'm a Thief main, and I primarily play this game for the PvP. I want the game to work. I want Thieves to be in a good spot, but not overpowered. I was willing to give this balance team a chance, but I think I'm just done with this game now. It's obvious based on the balance team's trend that ongoing balance issues are going to get ignored, while pumping out changes that don't make any sense. > > > > (P.S, to the OP, Most of the people I know who swapped out of Thief went to Power Rev or Holosmith, mostly the former) > > > > > > For what it's worth; I've never seen an Anet dev play thief. N-E-V-E-R. I knew about the upcoming Consume Plasma nerf, but I had no idea they'd also be nerfing Sap Essence (one of the few remaining actually hard-hitting thief skills). I'm confused as to why, if Signet of Agility was _such an issue_ , they couldn't just up the cooldown by 5-10 seconds? Then again, considering how limited its use is with its current cooldown as things stand... And people are actually out there talking about it as this 'superb condi cleanse', when it literally only does that while granting an added (now half a ) dodge. It's not like it's a stun break. > > I really am not much of a fan of deadeye's gameplay pattern. But that's the road Anet's pigeonholing me onto. Pretty much. The most frustrating to me personally isn't even the nerfs in and of themselves. That's dumbfounding, but what's frustrating to me personally are the non-thief players that just seem to think this change is warranted on sole basis that Thieves needed a nerf. They don't realize what the consequence of this change is going to be. Either Thieves are going to keep using Shortbow and find a way around the cost, or they won't use Shortbow and find another means of Mobility. I know some Deadeyes that got really good with Death's Retreat that are probably going to be fine. As for the Thieves that will keep using Shortbow, I can almost guarantee they are all going to do the same thing. It now takes 8 seconds instead of 6 seconds to regen the initiative to cast Shortbow (assuming there are no other sources of Ini regen). Guess which trait happens to restore 1 Initiative every 3 seconds? **Shadow's Rejuvenation.** When before it was an optional trait that was just really strong (and imho was a crutch, but that's just me) will now be borderline mandatory to make up the difference. That means Thieves are going to spending a lot more time in stealth to get that bonus. What's super ironic is that the same players that are saying the nerf is justified are the same ones that are complaining about the stealth uptime, not realizing what they've just done.

When my friend told me about the nerfs, I seriously thought he was trolling. Then I looked at them and not only did they nerf Infiltrator's Arrow, gutting its mobility, they did it in the most uncreative way possible. On top of that, instead of giving Thieves something to work with in terms of defense to compensate for said nerf in mobility, they nerfed their defense. These nerfs were completely out of the blue. If I had to guess where they were gunna nerf the Thief next, I would said it would have been Shadow Arts due to how much some of the traits that contribute to perma-stealthing are used as a crutch. It isn't even just about these nerfs (or how out of the blue they are). Remember back on the February Patch when they basically annihilated the Acrobatics traitline, giving the only decent traits 300 seconds? Remember back when everyone was saying that they are just going to be "placeholders" until they can find something better to do with them? They're still there, untouched, virtually unusable in any PvP scenario. Meanwhile, in the land of Deadeye, their PvP rotation literally consists of spamming Skirmisher's Shot over and over until they hit 7 Malice with Maleficent 7, get off a stealth attack, and rinse and repeat ad nauseam. It has been this way since February and it has yet to be touched. The sad part is that the only reason Deadeyes do this is because it is the only realistic way they can do significant damage. I could go on Then the OP mentioned that there are no Devs that play Thief. I have no idea how true this is, but at this point I don't doubt it. No Dev in their right mind who even plays Thief would even let this slide. I thought for awhile about what other alternatives I could take, and to be quite honest. I'm a Thief main, and I primarily play this game for the PvP. I want the game to work. I want Thieves to be in a good spot, but not overpowered. I was willing to give this balance team a chance, but I think I'm just done with this game now. It's obvious based on the balance team's trend that ongoing balance issues are going to get ignored, while pumping out changes that don't make any sense. (P.S, to the OP, Most of the people I know who swapped out of Thief went to Power Rev or Holosmith, mostly the former)

Thanks for the responses everyone! And yeah, it is for WvW.