New to Mes, should Hybrid mes use GS or Staff?

[KEN.3709]

searching for Hybrid mes wvw roaming build, confused by what to use , GS or Staff?

When i tried, why i am feeling GS more dmg than Staff?

[MikeL.8260]

Staff is not a direct dmg weapon (power, precision, ferocity), it's condi based (condition dmg and expertise) and frankly it's real use comes from two things the skills 2 and 5 for mobility and utility respectively while GS is all about dmg.

[MikeL.8260]

> @"MikeL.8260" said:

> Staff is not a direct dmg weapon (power, precision, ferocity), it's condi based (condition dmg and expertise) and frankly it's real use comes from two things the skills 2 and 5 for mobility and utility respectively while GS is all about dmg.

 

Condi based weapos: Staff, Axe, Torch and Scepter

Power Based weapons: GS, Sword(main and off hand), Shield, Focus and Pistol (pistol can be a condi weapon too if you trait it)

 

Match and mix between the two categories for the best way to play for you personally.

 

Edit:

Can't merge my posts.

[Curunen.8729]

You can pretty much get away with anything on hybrid in wvw, that's part of the benefit of hybrid - flexibility. I've interchanged between weapon sets while roaming both on Chrono in the past and now on Mirage.

 

Having said that, there are some things that are more effective in certain situations.

 

GS will not burst one shot anything that's more than a glass ele - depending on your build and how much grieving you use. Because of this and your lack of mobility with GS it can leave you vulnerable unlike when used in pure power shatter where you can make a kill very quickly - offence is best defence with GS particularly. Also GS has no native Condi application so you must take Illusions/MtD to apply Condi on shatter, otherwise it is bad.

 

With staff you can be a lot more flexible - phase retreat is excellent at kiting when dealing with groups, staff auto, ambush and clones are all great and chaos storm is useful for securing a stomp/preventing res or defensively. The native Condi application is useful either on its own or for covering shatter condis if you take Illusions (I don't but that's a separate discussion).

 

Having used both extensively I feel much more comfortable on staff in hybrid because I am able to sustain during the longer time to kill, and also because on mirage I don't use Illusions. On Chrono I used to use Illusions so GS was more effective - BUT in the past I came across a number of encounters with pure power mesmers where their burst > my burst and their sustain was a similar level (RI) which led to some failures - however similar encounters on staff were successful.

 

However if you are full glass hybrid with full grieving and Illusions, then GS should be fine to burst people.

 

The other reason I don't use GS is because Axe 3 is the best hybrid burst skill in my opinion - traited on an 8s cooldown, I've had it crit for over 4k, not counting confusion stacks or follow up F1, and I'm only half grieving half cele. With full grieving I'm sure it can crit even higher. So on that note I prefer the defence and sustain of staff to complement axe.

[KEN.3709]

> @"MikeL.8260" said:

> > @"MikeL.8260" said:

> > Staff is not a direct dmg weapon (power, precision, ferocity), it's condi based (condition dmg and expertise) and frankly it's real use comes from two things the skills 2 and 5 for mobility and utility respectively while GS is all about dmg.

>

> Condi based weapos: Staff, Axe, Torch and Scepter

> Power Based weapons: GS, Sword(main and off hand), Shield, Focus and Pistol (pistol can be a condi weapon too if you trait it)

>

> Match and mix between the two categories for the best way to play for you personally.

>

> Edit:

> Can't merge my posts.

 

i guess the hard part is how to mix it.

[KEN.3709]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> You can pretty much get away with anything on hybrid in wvw, that's part of the benefit of hybrid - flexibility. I've interchanged between weapon sets while roaming both on Chrono in the past and now on Mirage.

>

> Having said that, there are some things that are more effective in certain situations.

>

> GS will not burst one shot anything that's more than a glass ele - depending on your build and how much grieving you use. Because of this and your lack of mobility with GS it can leave you vulnerable unlike when used in pure power shatter where you can make a kill very quickly - offence is best defence with GS particularly. Also GS has no native Condi application so you must take Illusions/MtD to apply Condi on shatter, otherwise it is bad.

>

> With staff you can be a lot more flexible - phase retreat is excellent at kiting when dealing with groups, staff auto, ambush and clones are all great and chaos storm is useful for securing a stomp/preventing res or defensively. The native Condi application is useful either on its own or for covering shatter condis if you take Illusions (I don't but that's a separate discussion).

>

> Having used both extensively I feel much more comfortable on staff in hybrid because I am able to sustain during the longer time to kill, and also because on mirage I don't use Illusions. On Chrono I used to use Illusions so GS was more effective - BUT in the past I came across a number of encounters with pure power mesmers where their burst > my burst and their sustain was a similar level (RI) which led to some failures - however similar encounters on staff were successful.

>

> However if you are full glass hybrid with full grieving and Illusions, then GS should be fine to burst people.

>

> The other reason I don't use GS is because Axe 3 is the best hybrid burst skill in my opinion - traited on an 8s cooldown, I've had it crit for over 4k, not counting confusion stacks or follow up F1, and I'm only half grieving half cele. With full grieving I'm sure it can crit even higher. So on that note I prefer the defence and sustain of staff to complement axe.

 

Thanks, it is very detail.

so, are you start the fight with Staff, and then switch to Axe?

[Curunen.8729]

> @"KEN.3709" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > You can pretty much get away with anything on hybrid in wvw, that's part of the benefit of hybrid - flexibility. I've interchanged between weapon sets while roaming both on Chrono in the past and now on Mirage.

> >

> > Having said that, there are some things that are more effective in certain situations.

> >

> > GS will not burst one shot anything that's more than a glass ele - depending on your build and how much grieving you use. Because of this and your lack of mobility with GS it can leave you vulnerable unlike when used in pure power shatter where you can make a kill very quickly - offence is best defence with GS particularly. Also GS has no native Condi application so you must take Illusions/MtD to apply Condi on shatter, otherwise it is bad.

> >

> > With staff you can be a lot more flexible - phase retreat is excellent at kiting when dealing with groups, staff auto, ambush and clones are all great and chaos storm is useful for securing a stomp/preventing res or defensively. The native Condi application is useful either on its own or for covering shatter condis if you take Illusions (I don't but that's a separate discussion).

> >

> > Having used both extensively I feel much more comfortable on staff in hybrid because I am able to sustain during the longer time to kill, and also because on mirage I don't use Illusions. On Chrono I used to use Illusions so GS was more effective - BUT in the past I came across a number of encounters with pure power mesmers where their burst > my burst and their sustain was a similar level (RI) which led to some failures - however similar encounters on staff were successful.

> >

> > However if you are full glass hybrid with full grieving and Illusions, then GS should be fine to burst people.

> >

> > The other reason I don't use GS is because Axe 3 is the best hybrid burst skill in my opinion - traited on an 8s cooldown, I've had it crit for over 4k, not counting confusion stacks or follow up F1, and I'm only half grieving half cele. With full grieving I'm sure it can crit even higher. So on that note I prefer the defence and sustain of staff to complement axe.

>

> Thanks, it is very detail.

> so, are you start the fight with Staff, and then switch to Axe?

 

Depends on the situation - I do generally keep staff equipped for easy phase retreat or chaos armour (I have it traited for protection).

 

I've got the habit from Chrono of opening with staff 2 and 3 (because there it would lead up into a nice F5 blink+mirror images shatter spam) - nice to gain a bit of distance and get a couple of illusions out. If the changes to staff 3 are anything to go by it could be spawning 2 phantasms becoming 2 clones - we'll just have to wait and see on tuesday - because that would mean staff 2 + 3 -> both phantasms cast and die, then as soon as two clones are up you can Illusionary Ambush. Anyway that's all speculation.

 

Yes I switch to axe when I want to burst - usually it is a case of axe 2 + dodge (DE clone) -> axe 2 -> axe 3 + F1 burst. Of course if you already have an axe clone out then it's simply axe2+dodge -> axe 3 + F1.

 

---

EDIT: ah I totally forgot to mention ambush in this. You want to cast an ambush before axe 3 and time it so that axe 3 hits at exactly the same time as your phantasmal axes - this increases the burst, both in direct damage and confusion application.

 

As such the burst combo is more accurately axe2+dodge -> ambush -> axe3 for a 2 clone shatter, or add another axe 2 or dodge in there for a 3 clone shatter.

 

You can also do more complex things using Illusionary Ambush (though this is best saved for chasing/sticking on opponents or detarget to buy yourself time vs groups). For example you can cast IA first as soon as getting 3 axe clones out with whatever axe2/dodge combos you prefer, follow up straight into axe 3 and all the phantasmal axes should hit your target simultaneously with your axe 3 clones - hit F1 for big burst. IA can be used after Axe3 between shatter but it's a bit less efficient as the clones are not directly on your target for instant shatter.

[KEN.3709]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"KEN.3709" said:

> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > You can pretty much get away with anything on hybrid in wvw, that's part of the benefit of hybrid - flexibility. I've interchanged between weapon sets while roaming both on Chrono in the past and now on Mirage.

> > >

> > > Having said that, there are some things that are more effective in certain situations.

> > >

> > > GS will not burst one shot anything that's more than a glass ele - depending on your build and how much grieving you use. Because of this and your lack of mobility with GS it can leave you vulnerable unlike when used in pure power shatter where you can make a kill very quickly - offence is best defence with GS particularly. Also GS has no native Condi application so you must take Illusions/MtD to apply Condi on shatter, otherwise it is bad.

> > >

> > > With staff you can be a lot more flexible - phase retreat is excellent at kiting when dealing with groups, staff auto, ambush and clones are all great and chaos storm is useful for securing a stomp/preventing res or defensively. The native Condi application is useful either on its own or for covering shatter condis if you take Illusions (I don't but that's a separate discussion).

> > >

> > > Having used both extensively I feel much more comfortable on staff in hybrid because I am able to sustain during the longer time to kill, and also because on mirage I don't use Illusions. On Chrono I used to use Illusions so GS was more effective - BUT in the past I came across a number of encounters with pure power mesmers where their burst > my burst and their sustain was a similar level (RI) which led to some failures - however similar encounters on staff were successful.

> > >

> > > However if you are full glass hybrid with full grieving and Illusions, then GS should be fine to burst people.

> > >

> > > The other reason I don't use GS is because Axe 3 is the best hybrid burst skill in my opinion - traited on an 8s cooldown, I've had it crit for over 4k, not counting confusion stacks or follow up F1, and I'm only half grieving half cele. With full grieving I'm sure it can crit even higher. So on that note I prefer the defence and sustain of staff to complement axe.

> >

> > Thanks, it is very detail.

> > so, are you start the fight with Staff, and then switch to Axe?

>

> Depends on the situation - I do generally keep staff equipped for easy phase retreat or chaos armour (I have it traited for protection).

>

> I've got the habit from Chrono of opening with staff 2 and 3 (because there it would lead up into a nice F5 blink+mirror images shatter spam) - nice to gain a bit of distance and get a couple of illusions out. If the changes to staff 3 are anything to go by it could be spawning 2 phantasms becoming 2 clones - we'll just have to wait and see on tuesday - because that would mean staff 2 + 3 -> both phantasms cast and die, then as soon as two clones are up you can Illusionary Ambush. Anyway that's all speculation.

>

> Yes I switch to axe when I want to burst - usually it is a case of axe 2 + dodge (DE clone) -> axe 2 -> axe 3 + F1 burst. Of course if you already have an axe clone out then it's simply axe2+dodge -> axe 3 + F1.

>

> ---

> EDIT: ah I totally forgot to mention ambush in this. You want to cast an ambush before axe 3 and time it so that axe 3 hits at exactly the same time as your phantasmal axes - this increases the burst, both in direct damage and confusion application.

>

> As such the burst combo is more accurately axe2+dodge -> ambush -> axe3 for a 2 clone shatter, or add another axe 2 or dodge in there for a 3 clone shatter.

>

> You can also do more complex things using Illusionary Ambush (though this is best saved for chasing/sticking on opponents or detarget to buy yourself time vs groups). For example you can cast IA first as soon as getting 3 axe clones out with whatever axe2/dodge combos you prefer, follow up straight into axe 3 and all the phantasmal axes should hit your target simultaneously with your axe 3 clones - hit F1 for big burst. IA can be used after Axe3 between shatter but it's a bit less efficient as the clones are not directly on your target for instant shatter.

 

Thanks for the nice guide..

Two more questions,

which healing skill i should take then? False Oasis?

feels a little lack of condi clean, dodge only clean one, Jaunt clean 3. are those only way we can clean condi?

[Curunen.8729]

> @"KEN.3709" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"KEN.3709" said:

> > > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > > You can pretty much get away with anything on hybrid in wvw, that's part of the benefit of hybrid - flexibility. I've interchanged between weapon sets while roaming both on Chrono in the past and now on Mirage.

> > > >

> > > > Having said that, there are some things that are more effective in certain situations.

> > > >

> > > > GS will not burst one shot anything that's more than a glass ele - depending on your build and how much grieving you use. Because of this and your lack of mobility with GS it can leave you vulnerable unlike when used in pure power shatter where you can make a kill very quickly - offence is best defence with GS particularly. Also GS has no native Condi application so you must take Illusions/MtD to apply Condi on shatter, otherwise it is bad.

> > > >

> > > > With staff you can be a lot more flexible - phase retreat is excellent at kiting when dealing with groups, staff auto, ambush and clones are all great and chaos storm is useful for securing a stomp/preventing res or defensively. The native Condi application is useful either on its own or for covering shatter condis if you take Illusions (I don't but that's a separate discussion).

> > > >

> > > > Having used both extensively I feel much more comfortable on staff in hybrid because I am able to sustain during the longer time to kill, and also because on mirage I don't use Illusions. On Chrono I used to use Illusions so GS was more effective - BUT in the past I came across a number of encounters with pure power mesmers where their burst > my burst and their sustain was a similar level (RI) which led to some failures - however similar encounters on staff were successful.

> > > >

> > > > However if you are full glass hybrid with full grieving and Illusions, then GS should be fine to burst people.

> > > >

> > > > The other reason I don't use GS is because Axe 3 is the best hybrid burst skill in my opinion - traited on an 8s cooldown, I've had it crit for over 4k, not counting confusion stacks or follow up F1, and I'm only half grieving half cele. With full grieving I'm sure it can crit even higher. So on that note I prefer the defence and sustain of staff to complement axe.

> > >

> > > Thanks, it is very detail.

> > > so, are you start the fight with Staff, and then switch to Axe?

> >

> > Depends on the situation - I do generally keep staff equipped for easy phase retreat or chaos armour (I have it traited for protection).

> >

> > I've got the habit from Chrono of opening with staff 2 and 3 (because there it would lead up into a nice F5 blink+mirror images shatter spam) - nice to gain a bit of distance and get a couple of illusions out. If the changes to staff 3 are anything to go by it could be spawning 2 phantasms becoming 2 clones - we'll just have to wait and see on tuesday - because that would mean staff 2 + 3 -> both phantasms cast and die, then as soon as two clones are up you can Illusionary Ambush. Anyway that's all speculation.

> >

> > Yes I switch to axe when I want to burst - usually it is a case of axe 2 + dodge (DE clone) -> axe 2 -> axe 3 + F1 burst. Of course if you already have an axe clone out then it's simply axe2+dodge -> axe 3 + F1.

> >

> > ---

> > EDIT: ah I totally forgot to mention ambush in this. You want to cast an ambush before axe 3 and time it so that axe 3 hits at exactly the same time as your phantasmal axes - this increases the burst, both in direct damage and confusion application.

> >

> > As such the burst combo is more accurately axe2+dodge -> ambush -> axe3 for a 2 clone shatter, or add another axe 2 or dodge in there for a 3 clone shatter.

> >

> > You can also do more complex things using Illusionary Ambush (though this is best saved for chasing/sticking on opponents or detarget to buy yourself time vs groups). For example you can cast IA first as soon as getting 3 axe clones out with whatever axe2/dodge combos you prefer, follow up straight into axe 3 and all the phantasmal axes should hit your target simultaneously with your axe 3 clones - hit F1 for big burst. IA can be used after Axe3 between shatter but it's a bit less efficient as the clones are not directly on your target for instant shatter.

>

> Thanks for the nice guide..

> Two more questions,

> which healing skill i should take then? False Oasis?

> feels a little lack of condi clean, dodge only clean one, Jaunt clean 3. are those only way we can clean condi?

 

Healing is your preference.

 

Some people like to take False Oasis with Descent into Madness for the chaos storm, some prefer Ether Feast as it is easier on the move, some take Mirror heal.

 

I personally take Mirror heal because I trait Chaos with master of manipulation, and because I also use Evasive Mirror trait in duelling I like to maximise reflect uptime - and I like the synergy with Rune of the Adventure for the extra dodge after heal. Synergises nicely with Deceptive Evasion to pop out clones.

 

But if you don't take Chaos then Ether Feast is always solid, and False Oasis is decent if you can make use of the mirage mirror.

 

If you decide to take Inspiration (I'd currently recommend against this because it is not the most beneficial trait line for mirage - better to take any two out of duelling, chaos or illusions - though after tomorrow's patch things might be different), you could trait restorative mantras and use mantra heal - has good synergy again with adventure runes, although since the healing was nerfed I don't think it's our best heal anymore.

 

But for Condi cleanse I promise you will have plenty of cleanse between Jaunt, Elusive Mind and if you want extra you can take Sigil of Cleansing (1 on weapon swap), another 1 on prestige if you use torch, and if you take any utility like mantra cleanse or even arcane thievery you'll be able to shrug off a lot of conditions. If you build to maximise vigour and endurance regen (such as energy sigils, food and adventurer runes) you'll get a lot of benefit from elusive mind.

 

But just to say - I don't want to reduce your creativity by putting all these ideas - feel free to experiment and find what is comfortable for you. :) I can be a bit over zealous when I find my preferred build and related synergies and can be a bit hard headed when it comes to considering other options.

 

For the record my roaming build is in signature if you want to use for reference.

[KEN.3709]

This really helps me , i forgot the prestige on the torch skill.

i kind agree with you, that 4 s reflect plus 2 second per dodge, adventurer gives you another dodge, total 10 s reflect is very useful to against long range dmg.

 

but is Evasive Mirror be affected by Master of Manipulation? add another 2 seconds?

[Curunen.8729]

> @"KEN.3709" said:

> This really helps me , i forgot the prestige on the torch skill.

> i kind agree with you, that 4 s reflect plus 2 second per dodge, adventurer gives you another dodge, total 10 s reflect is very useful to against long range dmg.

>

> but is Evasive Mirror be affected by Master of Manipulation? add another 2 seconds?

 

Oh no, Evasive Mirror is not affected by that.

 

I use it because of maximising evades which synergises with elusive mind, might generation (food), clone production (DE) and so on. I have a lot of reflect access due to this which is great when being chased by rangers etc. Also completely shuts down things like p/p thieves.

[TastyTofu.3597]

Don't. Mesmer isn't worth it.

[KEN.3709]

which direction should Hybrid Mirage go now after patch?

Axe nerf, Confution nerf

[Curunen.8729]

> @"KEN.3709" said:

> which direction should Hybrid Mirage go now after patch?

> Axe nerf, Confution nerf

 

I can't test properly in wvw until late tonight at the earliest so will feedback once I'm able.

 

On first look I don't think there's much to change - still critting hard with axe3 and F1, staff now has torment instead of vuln, more clones for shatter and so on.

 

I don't think the confusion nerf is a big problem because it's only part of the damage in hybrid - there's still a lot of burst direct damage, and damage from bleeds (staff and axe and things like sharper images), torment (also staff and axe), burn (torch and staff).

 

If anything there are a lot more good options now. Inspiration is an interesting traitline now that Illusionary Inspiration is a solid trait for hybrid play - 2 stacks of might on summoning a phantasm. Also the trait that siphons conditions onto new phantasms allows you to trait Focus if you want to use it rather than relying on Restorative Illusions.

 

Having said that I still don't think I'm going to use Inspiration.

 

Illusions is damn strong now with Compounding Power as a minor, then traits like Shatter storm for double F1 opener, and F2 having 3 stacks of confusion per clone. I think it might be work going Duelling/Illusions/Mirage for more damage output with Axe. The thing is even with the phantasm changes, Deceptive Evasion synergises so well with axe play it allows a much better flow than without, allowing you to perform fluid axe2/dodge into axe3 and so on.

 

Anyway lots to play with but at first look I don't see any problem for hybrid mesmer - in fact I see a lot of potential and buffs that will be beneficial for us.

 

> @"TastyTofu.3597" said:

> Don't. Mesmer isn't worth it.

 

One less fotm player to put up with.

[KEN.3709]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"KEN.3709" said:

> > which direction should Hybrid Mirage go now after patch?

> > Axe nerf, Confution nerf

>

> I can't test properly in wvw until late tonight at the earliest so will feedback once I'm able.

>

> On first look I don't think there's much to change - still critting hard with axe3 and F1, staff now has torment instead of vuln, more clones for shatter and so on.

>

> I don't think the confusion nerf is a big problem because it's only part of the damage in hybrid - there's still a lot of burst direct damage, and damage from bleeds (staff and axe and things like sharper images), torment (also staff and axe), burn (torch and staff).

>

> If anything there are a lot more good options now. Inspiration is an interesting traitline now that Illusionary Inspiration is a solid trait for hybrid play - 2 stacks of might on summoning a phantasm. Also the trait that siphons conditions onto new phantasms allows you to trait Focus if you want to use it rather than relying on Restorative Illusions.

>

> Having said that I still don't think I'm going to use Inspiration.

>

> Illusions is kitten strong now with Compounding Power as a minor, then traits like Shatter storm for double F1 opener, and F2 having 3 stacks of confusion per clone. I think it might be work going Duelling/Illusions/Mirage for more damage output with Axe. The thing is even with the phantasm changes, Deceptive Evasion synergises so well with axe play it allows a much better flow than without, allowing you to perform fluid axe2/dodge into axe3 and so on.

>

> Anyway lots to play with but at first look I don't see any problem for hybrid mesmer - in fact I see a lot of potential and buffs that will be beneficial for us.

>

> > @"TastyTofu.3597" said:

> > Don't. Mesmer isn't worth it.

>

> One less fotm player to put up with.

 

wait for your test result.

just feel lost Chaos and change to illusions will lose that mirror synergy and also stability.

 

same time with the GS buff.. really pushed me towards power Mirage. but i really like the Axe on Mirage...

[Curunen.8729]

> @"KEN.3709" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"KEN.3709" said:

> > > which direction should Hybrid Mirage go now after patch?

> > > Axe nerf, Confution nerf

> >

> > I can't test properly in wvw until late tonight at the earliest so will feedback once I'm able.

> >

> > On first look I don't think there's much to change - still critting hard with axe3 and F1, staff now has torment instead of vuln, more clones for shatter and so on.

> >

> > I don't think the confusion nerf is a big problem because it's only part of the damage in hybrid - there's still a lot of burst direct damage, and damage from bleeds (staff and axe and things like sharper images), torment (also staff and axe), burn (torch and staff).

> >

> > If anything there are a lot more good options now. Inspiration is an interesting traitline now that Illusionary Inspiration is a solid trait for hybrid play - 2 stacks of might on summoning a phantasm. Also the trait that siphons conditions onto new phantasms allows you to trait Focus if you want to use it rather than relying on Restorative Illusions.

> >

> > Having said that I still don't think I'm going to use Inspiration.

> >

> > Illusions is kitten strong now with Compounding Power as a minor, then traits like Shatter storm for double F1 opener, and F2 having 3 stacks of confusion per clone. I think it might be work going Duelling/Illusions/Mirage for more damage output with Axe. The thing is even with the phantasm changes, Deceptive Evasion synergises so well with axe play it allows a much better flow than without, allowing you to perform fluid axe2/dodge into axe3 and so on.

> >

> > Anyway lots to play with but at first look I don't see any problem for hybrid mesmer - in fact I see a lot of potential and buffs that will be beneficial for us.

> >

> > > @"TastyTofu.3597" said:

> > > Don't. Mesmer isn't worth it.

> >

> > One less fotm player to put up with.

>

> wait for your test result.

> just feel lost Chaos and change to illusions will lose that mirror synergy and also stability.

>

> same time with the GS buff.. really pushed me towards power Mirage. but i really like the Axe on Mirage...

 

From a little testing in pvp lobby (I can access the game from laptop but can't play competitively without proper keyboard/mouse setup) I think Duelling may not be necessary anymore.

 

Chaos/Illusions/Mirage is extremely strong for a few reasons:

- Compounding Power is effectively more might stacks

- Shatter Storm has amazing synergy with Bountiful Disillusionment, in addition to lower shatter cooldowns. You can easily build up very high might stacks.

- F2 burst confusion application is stronger

- F1 on lower cooldown and with ammunition is very strong

- AoE F3 is always nice to have

- Maim the Disillusioned is nice to have

 

The main things given up from Duelling are Deceptive Evasion, Evasive Mirror, perma fury and perma vigour. Sharper Images isn't a big deal when you can shatter so often, Deceptive Evasion is almost an acceptable loss when you don't need 3 clone shatters to do a lot of damage given how much might you can build up as well as frequency of spamming shatters with added torment and/or confusion application, and traited Mirror/Blink makes losing Evasive Mirror not such a big deal either.

 

Sure in any case power mesmer is very strong now in general, especially with new trait and skill synergies so tbh you might be more effective going full power, especially if you want to use GS.

 

But I think hybrid with Chaos/Illusions/Mirage is really strong with the might stacking synergy - and you can even use Celestial amulet in pvp with this now without sacrificing much damage.

 

In wvw I expect damage output will be even higher given half grieving half cele, and the frequency of shatters means F1 is almost always off cooldown when axe 3 is, and you can spam F1 or F2 even with only one or two illusions up rather than building up for 3 clone shatters with Deceptive Evasion.

[Tinnel.4369]

I run something like Curunen as an off build to power shatter when I want to duel a little more or some thief or another mesmer is onto me and trying to snipe on me.

 

I ran it a little last night with Dueling, Illusions, Mirage and it still works, but it's much more dependent on the power side of things as Confusion was our main condition component and it's pretty meh now. I saw a couple 1500 Confusion ticks, but nothing at all like it was before (4k+).

 

I really don't care for staff much except in the most outnumbered conditions, it's just too defensive for me. I prefer some combination of mainhand sword, scepter, or axe with torch and pistol offhands.

 

In a Mirage build, I'm pretty firmly convinced that sword is superior to most any other main hand. On top of it's already superior mobility and defense the cleave is just amazing now with the third hit of the chain hitting hard in a power build.

 

I have a really hard time giving up the Fury and crit damage in Dueling, but I do see a lot of potential in Curunen's might stacking build both in power and hybrid. Looks to make a really formidable dueler. I can say the cycling on F1 with 2 charges and reduced cooldowns is very nice and with Deception skills traited to generate clones you can build effective shatters quite easily.

[Curunen.8729]

Coming back to this it's really tough decisions now - which is great! :D

 

There seems to be a number of combinations that are solid for hybrid.

 

As much as I'm loving the might stacking of Chaos/Illusions/Mirage and the raw shatter output of Duelling/Illusions/Mirage, I'm kind of being drawn back to Duelling/Chaos/Mirage simply because of the survivability.

 

Having Mirror on 12s with Adventurer runes is just too good to give up, any other heal combination I try feels inferior. Also the nice extra additions of 24s Blink with reflect, traited staff (yeah Tinnel is right that axe/x sword/x is a more offensive hybrid combination, but I like the style of staff), as well as Chaotic Persistence (with Signet of Inspiration and Bountiful Disillusionment pumping out a fair amount of boons in addition to staff, and all the boon traits) while individually not mindblowing, collectively all gel together to make it "feel" right.

 

From Duelling, Deceptive Evasion is a "deceptively" subtle trait in how it enhances the axe playstyle - I'm finding I prefer the flow with it. Also perma vigour from critical infusion and Evasive Mirror are two very nice additions that I am not willing to relinquish.

 

Yeah it means I don't have Shatter Storm, buffed F2, Maim or Compounding Power - but personally I value the survivability in wvw more than the additional damage. Sure in a duel or in pvp the extra damage of Illusions is fantastic if playing a +1 roamer, but in wvw all those extra bits of sustain add up to make the difference between living or dying.

 

So in summary I'm not sure what kind of trait and skill selection I'm going to eventually settle on, but for now I'm feeling most comfortable with the same build I had pre-patch.

 

Edit: Just to reaffirm - quick bit of roaming on EBG and with Duelling/Chaos/Mirage I was able to juke with a medium mob and get a few stomps while being able to easily disengage, detarget and generally kite around. Phase retreat is awesome here with jaunt, blink and illusionary ambush - makes you very hard to follow let alone catch.

 

And then another 1v2/3 vs a chrono, weaver (and scourge that joined in later). Downed the chrono but weaver managed to get a res off so no stomp. Juked with them while being chased all the way from Golanta past SM towards blue side. Eventually we just parted ways as I couldn't get a stomp off - however it was definitely Duelling/Chaos/Mirage allowing me to sustain in that encounter. On the flipside you could say if I took Illusions I might have been able to secure a kill on the chrono then been able to finish off the weaver - but I feel I may have been killed by the chrono as they were burst power and the weaver was some kind of power bruiser.

[Tinnel.4369]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> Coming back to this it's really tough decisions now - which is great! :D

>

> There seems to be a number of combinations that are solid for hybrid.

>

> As much as I'm loving the might stacking of Chaos/Illusions/Mirage and the raw shatter output of Duelling/Illusions/Mirage, I'm kind of being drawn back to Duelling/Chaos/Mirage simply because of the survivability.

>

> Having Mirror on 12s with Adventurer runes is just too good to give up, any other heal combination I try feels inferior. Also the nice extra additions of 24s Blink with reflect, traited staff (yeah Tinnel is right that axe/x sword/x is a more offensive hybrid combination, but I like the style of staff), as well as Chaotic Persistence (with Signet of Inspiration and Bountiful Disillusionment pumping out a fair amount of boons in addition to staff, and all the boon traits) while individually not mindblowing, collectively all gel together to make it "feel" right.

>

> From Duelling, Deceptive Evasion is a "deceptively" subtle trait in how it enhances the axe playstyle - I'm finding I prefer the flow with it. Also perma vigour from critical infusion and Evasive Mirror are two very nice additions that I am not willing to relinquish.

>

> Yeah it means I don't have Shatter Storm, buffed F2, Maim or Compounding Power - but personally I value the survivability in wvw more than the additional damage. Sure in a duel or in pvp the extra damage of Illusions is fantastic if playing a +1 roamer, but in wvw all those extra bits of sustain add up to make the difference between living or dying.

>

> So in summary I'm not sure what kind of trait and skill selection I'm going to eventually settle on, but for now I'm feeling most comfortable with the same build I had pre-patch.

>

> Edit: Just to reaffirm - quick bit of roaming on EBG and with Duelling/Chaos/Mirage I was able to juke with a medium mob and get a few stomps while being able to easily disengage, detarget and generally kite around. Phase retreat is awesome here with jaunt, blink and illusionary ambush - makes you very hard to follow let alone catch.

>

> And then another 1v2/3 vs a chrono, weaver (and scourge that joined in later). Downed the chrono but weaver managed to get a res off so no stomp. Juked with them while being chased all the way from Golanta past SM towards blue side. Eventually we just parted ways as I couldn't get a stomp off however it was definitely Duelling/Chaos/Mirage allowing me to sustain in that encounter. On the flipside you could say if I took Illusions I might have been able to secure a kill on the chrono then been able to finish off the weaver - but I feel I may have been killed by the chrono as they were burst power and the weaver was some kind of power bruiser.

 

Fair enough. I'm definitely a fun and comfort over meta guy.

 

You're right, we do have the luxury of a lot of nice choices right now. I need to test more, but running Illus, Chaos, Mirage I had a couple outnumbered fights today where I felt I had more sustain then ever before and generated at least a down and 2 downs in one fight (couldn't finish any). I think Chaos helped, but I think a lot of it was Signet of the Ether paired with Self-Deception and Mirrored Axes with Mirage Advance, Illusionary Ambush, and Jaunt on the utilities. The clone spam was insane and with the targeting drops and teleports they just couldn't pin me down.

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > Coming back to this it's really tough decisions now - which is great! :D

> >

> > There seems to be a number of combinations that are solid for hybrid.

> >

> > As much as I'm loving the might stacking of Chaos/Illusions/Mirage and the raw shatter output of Duelling/Illusions/Mirage, I'm kind of being drawn back to Duelling/Chaos/Mirage simply because of the survivability.

> >

> > Having Mirror on 12s with Adventurer runes is just too good to give up, any other heal combination I try feels inferior. Also the nice extra additions of 24s Blink with reflect, traited staff (yeah Tinnel is right that axe/x sword/x is a more offensive hybrid combination, but I like the style of staff), as well as Chaotic Persistence (with Signet of Inspiration and Bountiful Disillusionment pumping out a fair amount of boons in addition to staff, and all the boon traits) while individually not mindblowing, collectively all gel together to make it "feel" right.

> >

> > From Duelling, Deceptive Evasion is a "deceptively" subtle trait in how it enhances the axe playstyle - I'm finding I prefer the flow with it. Also perma vigour from critical infusion and Evasive Mirror are two very nice additions that I am not willing to relinquish.

> >

> > Yeah it means I don't have Shatter Storm, buffed F2, Maim or Compounding Power - but personally I value the survivability in wvw more than the additional damage. Sure in a duel or in pvp the extra damage of Illusions is fantastic if playing a +1 roamer, but in wvw all those extra bits of sustain add up to make the difference between living or dying.

> >

> > So in summary I'm not sure what kind of trait and skill selection I'm going to eventually settle on, but for now I'm feeling most comfortable with the same build I had pre-patch.

> >

> > Edit: Just to reaffirm - quick bit of roaming on EBG and with Duelling/Chaos/Mirage I was able to juke with a medium mob and get a few stomps while being able to easily disengage, detarget and generally kite around. Phase retreat is awesome here with jaunt, blink and illusionary ambush - makes you very hard to follow let alone catch.

> >

> > And then another 1v2/3 vs a chrono, weaver (and scourge that joined in later). Downed the chrono but weaver managed to get a res off so no stomp. Juked with them while being chased all the way from Golanta past SM towards blue side. Eventually we just parted ways as I couldn't get a stomp off however it was definitely Duelling/Chaos/Mirage allowing me to sustain in that encounter. On the flipside you could say if I took Illusions I might have been able to secure a kill on the chrono then been able to finish off the weaver - but I feel I may have been killed by the chrono as they were burst power and the weaver was some kind of power bruiser.

>

> Fair enough. I'm definitely a fun and comfort over meta guy.

>

> You're right, we do have the luxury of a lot of nice choices right now. I need to test more, but running Illus, Chaos, Mirage I had a couple outnumbered fights today where I felt I had more sustain then ever before and generated at least a down and 2 downs in one fight (couldn't finish any). I think Chaos helped, but I think a lot of it was Signet of the Ether paired with Self-Deception and Mirrored Axes with Mirage Advance, Illusionary Ambush, and Jaunt on the utilities. The clone spam was insane and with the targeting drops and teleports they just couldn't pin me down.

>

 

Now that's a cool idea - signet of ether with self deception. I like that, kind of makes up for minimal regen without renewing oasis. Going to test that next. I just wish it had lower cooldown.

 

I take it you run traveler runes? I kind of use a slot for signet of inspiration due to adventurer runes (really wish utility speed writs were cheaper...) - but they don't have that much value with ether signet due to the long cooldown. Would be nice to drop that for Mirage Advance. All of that would certainly make up for no Deceptive Evasion, although I'd be sad to lose Evasive Mirror.

[Tinnel.4369]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> Now that's a cool idea - signet of ether with self deception. I like that, kind of makes up for minimal regen without renewing oasis. Going to test that next. I just wish it had lower cooldown.

>

> I take it you run traveler runes? I kind of use a slot for signet of inspiration due to adventurer runes (really wish utility speed writs were cheaper...) - but they don't have that much value with ether signet due to the long cooldown. Would be nice to drop that for Mirage Advance. All of that would certainly make up for no Deceptive Evasion, although I'd be sad to lose Evasive Mirror.

 

Yes, currently travelers, but in my power build with sword I don't. I'm using sword in this hybrid build just cause it's too dam good, but I think I'll keep the travelers for the overall stats, my trinkets are all celestial, and armor and weapons are grieving with a sigil of stars for more overall stats.

 

Gonna just keep playing with things, but it's helpful to keep bouncing ideas!!

[Tinnel.4369]

If I was to keep Chaos over Dueling and drop the Traveler's Rune for anything it'd probably be Pack Runes. My power is ok, and ferocity is pushing 200, but crit needs some help without Dueling. The 25% on Mind Wrack from Chaos is nice, but with sword and axe (which is really a pretty legit power weapon) more crit would be nice. The buffed sword damage is no joke, hello cleave!

[KEN.3709]

Which skill is Self-Deception and Mirrored Axes, couldn’t find it.

[Tinnel.4369]

> @"KEN.3709" said:

> Which skill is Self-Deception and Mirrored Axes, couldn’t find it.

 

Mirage traits.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> If I was to keep Chaos over Dueling and drop the Traveler's Rune for anything it'd probably be Pack Runes. My power is ok, and ferocity is pushing 200, but crit needs some help without Dueling. The 25% on Mind Wrack from Chaos is nice, but with sword and axe (which is really a pretty legit power weapon) more crit would be nice. The buffed sword damage is no joke, hello cleave!

 

Tbh if you don't use staff then Chaos isn't that good compared to Duelling+Illusions.

 

The three main benefits from Chaos for me are Staff trait, Traited Blink and Mirror+Adventurer runes, and Chaotic Persistence. BD is great but I wouldn't say it's build defining. Yes it's nice in addition to Elusive mind with the stability, making it very difficult for opponents to cc you.

 

Sword is indeed awesome for the ambush and cleave, although strangely I prefer it on Chrono. I just really love staff both from an aesthetic standpoint and the functional mobility.

 

Also using IA in staff frequently causes opponents to lose you - just standing still after IA and being aware of positioning can give you a few seconds breathing room - it's one of my primary sustain methods.

 

On reflection as to why I'm not planning to use Illusions, it's from a utility perspective. Illusions provides significant boost to damage output for hybrid, through Shatter Storm, Cry of Pain, Maim, Compounding Power and Master of Fragmentation. However the only utility of note is AoE F3 - very useful for securing a stomp by preventing a res without having to target the right player first. Aside from that while the power/condi damage boosts are fantastic I'm finding it not to be necessary.

 

Deceptive Evasion on the other hand is powerful utility changing how I play, especially with axe. Sure Duelling doesn't offer much either, though perma vigour and perma fury together with very high reflect uptime is nice to have.

 

I'm trying out self deception again but I really do miss the perma regen from Renewing Oasis - really makes up for lack of sustained healing like old condi chrono used to have through RI.

 

Of all of them I can't give up Chaos because the heal/rune synergy and traited staff are crucial to how I like to play. In any case it is wonderful to have several strong options here. I'm sure even Inspiration could be made to work with the new might on phantasm summon, condi cleanse siphon and so on.