Condi removal for engineers -- bad to worse

[coglin.1496]

> @"Deniara Devious.3948" said:

> I am telling you the condition removal is significantly worse in WvWvW for core engineer.

 

So? A random poster can tell you anything, it doesn't make it true or reasonable. Present some facts. Compare before and after cleansing capabilities with specific builds. "Telling" folks something without offering any evidence of it is just blowing smoke.

 

 

[NeroBoron.7285]

Don't like the change either, we were already low on condi remove options. Whill i think the transmute change is a good one, i dont like the change on alchemy tinctures. Before elexier gun with alchemy provided 4 condi removes: one on the toolbelt, one on skill 4 and two on skill 5. that was really nice. and was even greater with the elexier b proc and if one takes 1-2 other elexier skills.

If the elexier gun spray would remove conditions from us as well now i wouldnt mind i guess.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

so maybe you guys should think about what skills the engi has that grants protection. medic gyro f1- 5 stax, hard light arena- 8 plus 4 more if used over 50%, then the minor things like shield prot, protection injection, the new recon enclosure, rune of the herald.

[Zefrost.3425]

They completely gutted elixirs. Now elixir H is even worse than ever and I have ~6 less condition removal then I did pre-patch even with durability runes and new traits. My scrapper build with alchemy/tools/scrapper is totally kitten gutted. Now I have to either drop alchemy for inventions or tools for inventions and both make my scrapper even worse than it was before the kitten patch. If I go tools/inventions then I lose out on invulnerability, condition conversion from transmute and purity of purpose from alchemy. If I go alchemy/tools then I lose out on the much needed condition removal from the new trait where protection removes conditions. If I go alchemy/inventions then I lose out on decreased toolkit cooldowns (block cooldown/prybar/pull) swiftness which is surprisingly hard for engi to get without kit swiftness and 50% endurance regen.

 

All-in-all scrappers are now WEAKER than they were pre-patch.

 

This was my build pre-patch:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnUUBlch1XBubBEqilJja8DqgIg+vz79WsZKgAA-jFCBQB8b/BNq8DAPAgKpWBIuAAKSHwnUV5kKBDAcAc+5BgzP/8zP/8q+6rP/8zf+5rvepAWdoF-w

 

Was extremely good and I had tons of fun with it in WvW. Now? Now I give something up no matter what to get less than what I had before. The only possible way to keep everything that I had before would be to go tools/alchemy/inventions but then I have no hammer which means rifle or pistol/shield? Lmao, no thanks. It would be possible for me to just ditch elixir gun for thumper turret now theoretically... but the toolbelt skill needs a buff. Make it give aoe stability 5 stacks and 10s duration then we're even. After testing in WvW, tools/alchemy/inventions with pistol/shield base engi is indeed better than scrapper. Disgusting.

 

This is all because of the gut to conditions removed with elixirs.

 

Oh yeah, and adaptive armor was ALSO nerfed so now that 20% dmg reduction from conditions basically doesn't do anything anymore.

 

Lmfao. Taking a good look... I think holosmith/inventions/alchemy is possibly even tankier than scrapper and with more team support too.

 

Just lol.

[Deniara Devious.3948]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> So? A random poster can tell you anything, it doesn't make it true or reasonable. Present some facts. Compare before and after cleansing capabilities with specific builds. "Telling" folks something without offering any evidence of it is just blowing smoke.

 

I presented facts. Yet you didn't quote them from my original message:

_Compounding chemicals heals so little it is close to useless (about 50 with cele ascended), unless you ramp boons like no tomorrow. The new transmute trait is basically almost utterly useless in any fight which lasts 1 minute or more. Mortar #5 no longer removes any conditions, same for healing mist (tool belt for elixir gun). Elixir gun #5 removes just 1 condition._

 

All these changes combined made the condition removal significantly worse.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

so basically everyone is saying engi is unplayable without alchemy. that sounds like a problem. yours, theirs or both.

[Arise.6218]

This is just another patch in a long history of updates where Engi gets screwed over by the developers. I seriously doubt that who ever is in charge of balancing engi even plays the class or considers our feed back. They tried to sell us on the B.S. that this update was going to be an improvement on core engineer and scrapper. Unfortunately this just another unneeded engi nerf. Our condi cleanse was gutted from our use of elixirs by taking away Alchemical Tinctures. I never thought Transmute was that good to begin with and now they made it worse. Purity of Purpose could be good in some encounters but HGH is still way better in general. Personally I didn't really care for the changes to the Inventions trait line too much. I guess if used Anticorrosion Plating with shield off hand you can get back some of the group condi cleanse we lost. But it still feels lackluster. The Scrapper changes seems to add more survivability to the class, making us "better tanks".... Unfortunately added survivability wont make us better tank options over most of the other meta tanks. Sure Engi can dish out a ton of boons. With HGH we can easily push out 25 might to a party of 5.... But Druid can do the same to a ten man squad. Engi can also can pump out a ton of regen, retaliation and protection... well so can Fire brand and they are better at it. Oh Engi can give out super speed... No one gives a f#ck about super speed..... If Anet wanted to make scraper good they should get rid of super speed and give us the ability to pump out quickness to a party of 5 with lightning fields. Instead of giving us a crappy the ability to grant barriers to allies give us quickness. I don't know about you guys but i think if Scrapper tank could support a group with useful boons it would be accepted by the rest of the Guild wars 2 community. As is if I try to go into a raid with a scrapper tank or engi healer, I will just get laughed at and kicked from the group immediately.... Oh and I almost forgot to mention, why did bomb kit get a nerf?... It's not like it did insane damage to begin with. And the buffs to sword on Holo still doesn't make it better than rifle as our main power weapon.... It's just sad that Engi as a class still has the same problems after over 5 years of this game be out. The developers just don't seem to care enough about the class.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> so basically everyone is saying

Nobody has said Engi is unplayable without Alchemy. Now it's pointless WITH it. No HGH Condi removal means you're forced to use Heal turret. Among other nerfs, base engineer is now even crappier than it already was.

[DarkReaver.8437]

I've only played Engineer for 5 years but it's all I play. I used elixirs when people thought they were horrible, I still used them once Anet buffed them and everyone started using them and now that Anet have nerfed them, well I'm still going to use them. The condi cleanse from them was only ever just a bonus for me. But hey, maybe I'm just too casual for this debate.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Deniara Devious.3948" said:

> > @"coglin.1496" said:

> > So? A random poster can tell you anything, it doesn't make it true or reasonable. Present some facts. Compare before and after cleansing capabilities with specific builds. "Telling" folks something without offering any evidence of it is just blowing smoke.

>

> I presented facts. Yet you didn't quote them from my original message:

> _Compounding chemicals heals so little it is close to useless (about 50 with cele ascended), unless you ramp boons like no tomorrow. The new transmute trait is basically almost utterly useless in any fight which lasts 1 minute or more. Mortar #5 no longer removes any conditions, same for healing mist (tool belt for elixir gun). Elixir gun #5 removes just 1 condition._

>

> All these changes combined made the condition removal significantly worse.

 

Again, you are just spewing useless random bad assumtions while avoiding facts. If you do not specifically list the previous potential of condition removal and then offer a break down of potential condition removal now, you are just spitting into the wind.

 

All of my information suggest the condition cleanses potential is much better, and the potential to convert conditions to boons is an even greater advancement.

[miriforst.1290]

It feels a little bit like they couldn't decide between the usual "weaker skill" or "longer cooldown" approach and said lets do both, i mean they gave elixir B lower cooldown from the trait than the skill while not nerfing it nearly as much as C, are they admitting elixir B is kinda trash?

[Silinsar.6298]

Some thoughts about this:

 

* The removal of Alchemical Tinctures was a plain nerf to every build that ran SRD in combination with any elixir in the utility slots, E gun or Mortar kit. So basically every viable (or meta) PvP and / or WvW build.

* I don't get why Lesser Elixir C has that cooldown and just removes 2 conditions (they even split it, as if fearing 1 cond remove per minute more would make it OP?).

* SRD is more risky than ever (removing one condition was the only little saving grace when it procced while you had damaging conditions on you). There's still no useful alternative for this trait (regeneration heals too little to make a difference in the short term, backpack regen is also negligible since it no longer lingers). Elixir S more than ever needs to become a cancel-able transform (make the weapon swap key cancel it).

* Comeback Cure and Purity of Purpose have insufficient synergy with Alchemy. Why are there two major traits focused on clearing conditions in a traitline that no longer features any regular condition removal?

* Inventions has a similar problem: Energy Amplifier makes zero sense as a trait in Inventions now. It only is active while you have regeneration, but the traitline in no way provides regeneration.

* While Anticorrosion Plating promises some good condition removal (and is supposedly the replacement for Alchemical Tinctures), the access to protection is mediocre / requires the usage of specific weapon sets (x + shield) and/or specific utility skills (Medic Gyro / hard light area). With scrapper, I can see this trait reaching its potential due to Medic Gyro alone. On Holo I'm still not sold on Hard Light Area due to it being static. If it would attach to the user as the Gyro TB does, it would be a good utility skill worth taking. On Core engi, this trait would only be somewhat decent with Over Shield. That would require you to use P/Sh, aka a core condi build which I don't see becoming viable in the near future.

 

Overall I think the problem with the changes is that engi lost something in an area it needed no changes in (has anyone complained about engi's cond removal?) and what it got in return is harder to apply and only fits in certain builds. The focus on cond removal got stretched over Inventions AND Alchemy, both seeming to require the other to live up to their potential and not being self-sufficient enough. For example, Protection Injection & Anticorrosion Plating is a nice synergy, Comeback Cure & Energy Amplifier are a good fit and of course Anticorrosion Plating & Purity of Purpose too. Inventions is only an "alternative" now because Alchemy alone will probably not be good enough for cond removal. But neither Inventions nor Alchemy seem to be good or make much sense (synergy / design -wise) without the other.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Silinsar.6298" said:

> Some thoughts about this:

>

> * The removal of Alchemical Tinctures was a plain nerf to every build that ran SRD in combination with any elixir in the utility slots, E gun or Mortar kit. So basically every viable (or meta) PvP and / or WvW build.

 

Wait. You cared about SRD for the condition cleanses?

 

> * I don't get why Lesser Elixir C has that cooldown and just removes 2 conditions (they even split it, as if fearing 1 cond remove per minute more would make it OP?).

 

I agree that the cool down seems too long

 

> * SRD is more risky than ever (removing one condition was the only little saving grace when it procced while you had damaging conditions on you). There's still no useful alternative for this trait (regeneration heals too little to make a difference in the short term, backpack regen is also negligible since it no longer lingers). Elixir S more than ever needs to become a cancel-able transform (make the weapon swap key cancel it).

 

I do not believe you have the slightest clue what SRD value was if you feel it laid in it's ability to clear a condition.

 

> * Comeback Cure and Purity of Purpose have insufficient synergy with Alchemy. Why are there two major traits focused on clearing conditions in a traitline that no longer features any regular condition removal?

 

Wait, are you asking why two traits that are synergetic to condition removal in a traitline that you declare features no condition removal?

 

> * Inventions has a similar problem: Energy Amplifier makes zero sense as a trait in Inventions now. It only is active while you have regeneration, but the traitline in no way provides regeneration.

 

It makes perfects sense. I still think it is a horrible trait, but given the other healing related traits, it makes perfect sense.

 

> * While Anticorrosion Plating promises some good condition removal (and is supposedly the replacement for Alchemical Tinctures), the access to protection is mediocre / requires the usage of specific weapon sets (x + shield) and/or specific utility skills (Medic Gyro / hard light area).

 

This statement makes no sense. Every boon in the game requires specific skills or utilities to access it.

 

> Overall I think the problem with the changes is that engi lost something in an area it needed no changes in (has anyone complained about engi's cond removal?)

 

Engineer gained by almost double, in potential to clear conditions. More so it can convert all of them to boons. But yes, every engineer ever was complaining about the limits of condition removal. Which is why they made these positive changes.

 

>And what it got in return is harder to apply and only fits in certain builds. The focus on cond removal got stretched over Inventions AND Alchemy,

 

They spread it out for more options with an overall increase in clearing possibilities.

 

both seeming to require the other to live up to their potential and not being self-sufficient enough. For example, Protection Injection & Anticorrosion Plating is a nice synergy, Comeback Cure & Energy Amplifier are a good fit and of course Anticorrosion Plating & Purity of Purpose too. Inventions is only an "alternative" now because Alchemy alone will probably not be good enough for cond removal.

 

You are saying "probably", "maybe", and "could be" alot which all suggest you should spend less time complaining on theory and actually test it

 

 

>But neither Inventions nor Alchemy seem to be good or make much sense (synergy / design -wise) without the other.

 

I think they make a lot of sense and either line alone adds a lot more options then alchemy did alone previously, and together they are a vast improvement.

 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

well the elixir nerf makes no sense to me, I disagree with it, but there are options. I don't like in any fashion that now most of engis condi clear is now in the inventions trait line. making any trait line mandatory or as good as is a horrible decision. still tho its going to mix things up and make gameplay different for engis which is alright I guess.

[Chiaroscuro.7042]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

 

> > * Comeback Cure and Purity of Purpose have insufficient synergy with Alchemy. Why are there two major traits focused on clearing conditions in a traitline that no longer features any regular condition removal?

>

> Wait, are you asking why two traits that are synergetic to condition removal in a traitline that you declare features no condition removal?

>

> > * Inventions has a similar problem: Energy Amplifier makes zero sense as a trait in Inventions now. It only is active while you have regeneration, but the traitline in no way provides regeneration.

>

> It makes perfects sense. I still think it is a horrible trait, but given the other healing related traits, it makes perfect sense.

>

 

>

>

 

This is exactly what I've noticed and what I believe is problematic with the changes to condi removal. The point is that these two traits in Alchemy a) grant you regeneration IF you remove a condition from an ally and b) convert conditions into boons IF you were to remove conditions from an ally. However, there is NO single trait left in Alchemy that actually does make you remove conditions, which means that for the Alchemy traitline on its own, these two traits, as good as they may be, are useless because they will NEVER apply. I don't include Transmute here because it is not an intentional condi removal applied by the player, it triggers automatically when you have a number of conditions on you and I personally think that having a 60 second internal cooldown (higher than the utility skill it refers to) on a minor trait makes for limited usefulness.

 

Now I agree that Scrapper has marvelous potential for condi removal if you combine these traits in Alchemy with traits in Inventions like Cleansing Synergy, Reconstruction Enclosure and Anticorrosion Plating. Add a Medic Gyro and never worry about conditions again. But I disagree with the argument that I have read on this topic that this encourages build diversity because condi removal is no longer locked into Alchemy alone. Condi removal now requires, as said above, two traitlines to be efficient. Which means that if you want to have proper condi removal on Engi, you HAVE to invest in a pure support build. I am not opposed to that idea, but I enjoy my Scrapper in PvE. That's a bit of a problem, because I might like to use a flamethrower and profit from traits in the Firearms line or I might like to drop mines when I dodge and lift my dps a bit with the Explosives line, etc etc. I'm aware that one can't have it all, but it worked before to remove conditons from oneself while still picking traits for one's favourite engineering kit, let's say by taking Explosives, Alchemy and Scrapper or whatever. If you want to keep a dps-oriented traitline beside a support-oriented traitline for an all around more versatile playstyle, the support traitline is next to useless because half of its supposed support (see Alchemy) does not apply without traits in another line. Which means, either go dps and be stuck with conditions forever because you can't cleanse at all, or go support and apply protection and condi cleanse for all you're worth without being able to enhance your crit, damage, bombs, flamethrower or whatever else you may enjoy playing. I wasn't aware that either core Engi, Scrapper or Holosmith were supposed to have fixed support or dps roles. After all, most other classes and specializations (maybe except for the obvious Druid) do have the opportunity to combine support-oriented traits with dps-oriented traits without being completely incapable of sustaining themselves in as big a field as condi removal - which has become big for PvE as well with the PoF maps.

[Silinsar.6298]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> Wait. You cared about SRD for the condition cleanses?

> I do not believe you have the slightest clue what SRD value was if you feel it laid in it's ability to clear a condition.

 

To a degree, yes.

No need to guess how much clue I have about something. I know what Elixir S can do. SRD was and is a double-edged sword. It buys you time when you get spiked, but it can fuck you up because it interrupts you and locks you out from all skills, making it impossible for you to take actions against conditions already on you. The cond remove on it was not significant most of the time but it could prevent you from dying due to a damaging condition while you can not do anything about it.

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> Wait, are you asking why two traits that are synergetic to condition removal in a traitline that you declare features no condition removal?

 

Yes, I'm saying these traits would make more sense in Alchemy if Alchemy would provide more ways to trigger them. And I said no "regular" condition removal. There's Lesser Elixir C now but that doesn't benefit from Purity of Purpose since it converts anyway and I'm not sure if it even triggers Comeback Cure.

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> It makes perfects sense. I still think it is a horrible trait, but given the other healing related traits, it makes perfect sense.

 

I don't think having a trait that is only effective under a given requirement in a traitline that provides no way to fulfill that requirement makes sense. No need to argue further on these two points since we both have our opinion on them I guess. I agree however that it's not good (it's a relict from the era of heal bombs I guess), it should be replaced with something more useful.

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> This statement makes no sense. Every boon in the game requires specific skills or utilities to access it.

 

That's true, I still think it's harder to come by in multiple builds than Cleansing Water + Regeneration for eles for example. For Alchemical Tinctures E gun, Mortar and / or any elixir were skills you could easily run with and that also provided other defensive utility. Like mentioned, the protection access for Scrapper is pretty good due to gyro, but other specs have more problems seamlessly adding multiple sources of protection.

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> Engineer gained by almost double, in potential to clear conditions. More so it can convert all of them to boons. But yes, every engineer ever was complaining about the limits of condition removal. Which is why they made these positive changes.

 

Not without making significant changes to builds and sacrificing a traitline for Inventions or switching to it from Alchemy (and thereby loosing other important utility like SRD and Protection Injection). It would be a positive change if they left Alchemical Tinctures as it was and changed Inventions like they did, providing the option for another traitline and other skills to remove conds. For now it's just a change and it is debatable if they changed the right things in the right way.

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> They spread it out for more options with an overall increase in clearing possibilities.

 

I like the addition of Anticorrosion Plating, it opens up options and makes Inventions better. What I don't like is that so much was taken from Alchemy and the only way to compensate is to get another traitline.

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> You are saying "probably", "maybe", and "could be" alot which all suggest you should spend less time complaining on theory and actually test it

 

I'm trying alternating between Alchemy and Inventions at the moment. With Alchemy the loss of cond remove is undeniably noticeable, the cond remove in Inventions is good but it vexes me since it doesn't fit my build as well and some traits in there are just not up to date with the current state of the game. There's a reason why Alchemy was the "go to" defensive traitline for so long. There were no bad traits in it and it covered multiple defensive needs of the profession. Inventions needs more work to become a good defensive line on its own.

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> I think they make a lot of sense and either line alone adds a lot more options then alchemy did alone previously, and together they are a vast improvement.

 

Alchemy alone adds a lot more options than Alchemy pre-patch? The only considerable option that was added is Purity of Purpose and that without the additional cond removal from Inventions doesn't seem very tempting.

Two traitlines together being better at doing something one traitline could is no vast improvement, it's to be expected.

 

 

My impression from the patch is that Engi's good defensive line got nerfed, the bad got buffed. The good is no longer that good and the bad is better at cleansing conds but nothing else. They work well together, which makes it acceptable when you use them both, but any of them alone is worse than what we previously had.

[coglin.1496]

Odd, all of your assumtions and declarations go exactly counter to the entire PvP and WvW community conversations I am having with all the other engineers. As they all unanimously feel this is a vast improvement as well as opening yo build diversity, I will chalk this one up to you failing to see the capabilities and see outside "your build" since you sling that term around the entire posts. I guess I am just glad I. Nor running "your build" then, because these changes have been spectacular for several of my builds.

[Silinsar.6298]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> Odd, all of your assumtions and declarations go exactly counter to the entire PvP and WvW community conversations I am having with all the other engineers. As they all unanimously feel this is a vast improvement as well as opening yo build diversity, I will chalk this one up to you failing to see the capabilities and see outside "your build" since you sling that term around the entire posts. I guess I am just glad I. Nor running "your build" then, because these changes have been spectacular for several of my builds.

 

Of course my impression of the patch is based on the build I play and on my experiences, just as yours is based on your playstyle. But also take a look at metabattle. Most builds use Alchemy without also running Inventions and use at least E gun or one or more elixirs. All these builds have less condition removal now. Alchemy is worse than before. Inventions may or may not prove to be a good alternative, for me it isn't so far. Builds that combine Alchemy and Inventions will be capable of good condition removal / conversion. I don't know whether you see a point in my arguments since you no longer address them. It's good for you that you have less problems integrating Inventions into your builds but that doesn't mean the changes to Alchemy weren't for the worse or that Inventions is overall a good line.

[Adamantium.3682]

It seems to me a lot of the complaints are coming from "my old build doesn't work anymore" and the other side is "look at this new build that works well (or even better than old builds".

 

Both are valid, but I don't see the point in complaining about what you can't do anymore. Embrace the new, adapt, overcome. IMO This game would be really boring if you never had to change builds around to stay competitive.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Silinsar.6298" said:

 

> Of course my impression of the patch is based on the build I play and on my experiences, just as yours is based on your playstyle.

 

It is sad that you would actually believe that. No, my impressions are based on actual testing and math. I have no idea why you think it is reasonable to dishonestly declare how others developed their opinion. Particularly after they already explained it to you

 

>But also take a look at metabattle. Most builds use Alchemy without also running Inventions and use at least E gun or one or more elixirs.

 

Why would I look at metabattle? It doesn't even have the current PvP or raid builds on it. I couldn't think of a less reasonable argument.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Adamantium.3682" said:

> It seems to me a lot of the complaints are coming from "my old build doesn't work anymore" and the other side is "look at this new build that works well (or even better than old builds".

>

> Both are valid, but I don't see the point in complaining about what you can't do anymore. Embrace the new, adapt, overcome. IMO This game would be really boring if you never had to change builds around to stay competitive.

 

Aye, but the new "design" for condi removal is quite counterintuitive. Protection is not a boon that is normal for core engineers to have (so why is this on a core trait line?), and it's on rather specific skills for the elite specs (Reconstruction Field / Hard Light Arena primarily). If their goal was to increase build diversity when it comes to condi removal, well, they kind of did the opposite, as they are railroading most builds into using those skills and anticorrosion plating.

[Mea.5491]

I don't even know what to say... Before this patch I used to laugh at people who died in Palawadan during looting, now I am the one who dies because I don't have my condi cleanse on elixirs and I get condi-bombed by mobs 24/7. At this point I'm not even mad anymore, I got used to Anet ruining my builds.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> I don't even know what to say... Before this patch I used to laugh at people who died in Palawadan during looting, now I am the one who dies because I don't have my condi cleanse on elixirs and I get condi-bombed by mobs 24/7. At this point I'm not even mad anymore, I got used to Anet ruining my builds.

 

Perhaps change your build since our Condi clear capabilities increased 440% compared to prepatch.

[Deniara Devious.3948]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > I don't even know what to say... Before this patch I used to laugh at people who died in Palawadan during looting, now I am the one who dies because I don't have my condi cleanse on elixirs and I get condi-bombed by mobs 24/7. At this point I'm not even mad anymore, I got used to Anet ruining my builds.

>

> Perhaps change your build since our Condi clear capabilities increased 440% compared to prepatch.

 

How did you come up with the percentage?

 

Before the patch Alchemical Tinctures alchemy GM minor trait was "Throwing or consuming elixirs removes conditions from those affected." We have 7 potential elixir skills and their tool belt skills. Besides these Alchemical Tinctures trait was triggered upon the use of Healing Mist, Super Elixir and Elixir Shell. So a total of 7*2+3 = 17 skills benefited from this trait, which no longer exists. To many calculation, we just lost 16 potential skills to remove conditions with the trait!!! Yes, we gained some, but that will always now mean you must select at least 2 trait lines to be effectively remove conditions inventions + alchemy and use x/shield or inventions + scrapper. To force to player to select at least 2 trait lines to remove conditions is bad for build diversity.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alchemical_Tinctures

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir

 

No matter how you spin it, this was a massive nerf to all elixir skills and also a nerf to elixir gun and mortar, which lost potential condition removal via the removed trait.

 

[Mea.5491]

> @"Deniara Devious.3948" said:

> How did you come up with the percentage?

>

> Before the patch Alchemical Tinctures alchemy GM minor trait was "Throwing or consuming elixirs removes conditions from those affected." We have 7 potential elixir skills and their tool belt skills. Besides these Alchemical Tinctures trait was triggered upon the use of Healing Mist, Super Elixir and Elixir Shell. So a total of 7*2+3 = 17 skills benefited from this trait, which no longer exists. To many calculation, we just lost 16 potential skills to remove conditions with the trait!!! Yes, we gained some, but that will always now mean you must select at least 2 trait lines to be effectively remove conditions inventions + alchemy and use x/shield or inventions + scrapper. To force to player to select at least 2 trait lines to remove conditions is bad for build diversity.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alchemical_Tinctures

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir

>

> No matter how you spin it, this was a massive nerf to all elixir skills and also a nerf to elixir gun and mortar, which lost potential condition removal via the removed trait.

 

Exactly.