Condi removal for engineers -- bad to worse

[Squall Link.5412]

As an engi main, I always thought that the alchemy traitline was OP, and inventions not so good except with scrapper and a more tanky holosmith build. I am really happy about most of the changes : the new inventions traitline give us (FINALLY) good support tools with all these condi cleanses, the protection etc. We have the choice between support with Anticorrosion Plating, or more tanky thing with Bunker Down. Maybe Medical Dispersion Field can work also, didn't test yet.

 

The new alchemy traitline give us more defensive options than before : Iron blooded better for tankings builds, purity of purpose for a better buff potential and HGH for elixirs oriented builds, and more offensive. I am also happy about transmute's rework. The old trait was a little random : one condi converted into a boon every 15sec. It can be 10 stacks of bleed but it's also can be a 0.5sec cripple...so sometimes this trait could work when it was not needed. With the new trait, Transmute can work when the engineer have 3 conditions into 2, it means when he is more in danger. I think the cooldown is a little too long, maybe reduce it to 40sec baseline?

 

Now, about alchemical tinctures...I think the new trait is a good thing : it's give some small healings with boons BUT we really need this cleanse on elixirs. I think Anet made an error deleting this trait, they should move it to another trait. This is my suggestion : * move the new trait Comebacktrait to Backpack generator (becoming a new trait : gain health when equipping a kit + regeneration when cleansing a condition),

*replace it with a new(old? :s) trait : Alchemical tinctures : Elixirs cleanse a conditions. We could have 3 good defensive options : a cleanse, an evade and healings. What do you think guys?

[Gwii.5972]

> @"Squall Link.5412" said:

> This is my suggestion : * move the new trait Comebacktrait to Backpack generator (becoming a new trait : gain health when equipping a kit + regeneration when cleansing a condition),

> *replace it with a new(old? :s) trait : Alchemical tinctures : Elixirs cleanse a conditions. We could have 3 good defensive options : a cleanse, an evade and healings. What do you think guys?

I think it's a brilliant idea because it yields 3 very competitive traits and we only get to pick one. Personally I wouldn't ever take Comeback Cure or Backpack Regenerator in their current state. Combining them at least provides some incentives to take the trait instead of tincture or SRD.

 

 

[coglin.1496]

> @"Deniara Devious.3948" said:

> > @"coglin.1496" said:

> > > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > I don't even know what to say... Before this patch I used to laugh at people who died in Palawadan during looting, now I am the one who dies because I don't have my condi cleanse on elixirs and I get condi-bombed by mobs 24/7. At this point I'm not even mad anymore, I got used to Anet ruining my builds.

> >

> > Perhaps change your build since our Condi clear capabilities increased 440% compared to prepatch.

>

> How did you come up with the percentage?

>

> Before the patch Alchemical Tinctures alchemy GM minor trait was "Throwing or consuming elixirs removes conditions from those affected." We have 7 potential elixir skills and their tool belt skills. Besides these Alchemical Tinctures trait was triggered upon the use of Healing Mist, Super Elixir and Elixir Shell. So a total of 7*2+3 = 17 skills benefited from this trait, which no longer exists. To many calculation, we just lost 16 potential skills to remove conditions with the trait!!! Yes, we gained some, but that will always now mean you must select at least 2 trait lines to be effectively remove conditions inventions + alchemy and use x/shield or inventions + scrapper. To force to player to select at least 2 trait lines to remove conditions is bad for build diversity.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alchemical_Tinctures

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir

>

> No matter how you spin it, this was a massive nerf to all elixir skills and also a nerf to elixir gun and mortar, which lost potential condition removal via the removed trait.

>

 

Yup, it is a nerf to the elixirs themselves. It is a buff to almost every other build option that everyone was running in all three game modes though.

 

I see you like to disingenuously throw the word "'force" around. Well, now we are not 'forced' to run elixirs just for condition removal. Because their functionality otherwise was abysmal. half of the elixirs functionality was in "throw elixirs" which make all of the skills reflectable ground target required skills which were extremely slow, easily interrupted and countered and inconvenient to use.

 

No one carried the mortar for its ability to remove a condition, so let's not throw that out as a massive value lose, though I do concede it is a loss none the less.

 

The greatest loss here is probably healing mist.

 

Now though any build is not "forced: to use the horribly functioning, random effects, slow, reflectable elixirs, and can get equivalent or better condition clears, or condition to boon conversions, by just one of the two trait lines. there is no denying that just one trait line is better then what was available before for any player who did not want to be "forced" to give up a utility, healing, or elite skill to slot a poorly functioning, RNG, elixir skill.

 

While you are busy crying woe is me about the very specific skill set of elixirs you pigeon holed your builds into, I am celebrating the build diversity the rest of the community has been opened up to. Cry all you want about how it affected the horribly functioning RNG skills that are elixirs, you have to admit it greatly opened up options for Holosmith and Scrapper, as well as allowing core engineers to be free of being "forced" into using RNG heal, utility, or elite skills just to cleanse a condition.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Zefrost.3425" said:

>

> And are you throwing elixirs while inside of reflective bubbles? Lmao

 

No, you physically cannot do that. I know, I use my reflects to hamper baddies trying to use toss elixir anywhere close to me.

 

I am glad you agree and support my point.

 

> You're right btw, now we are not "forced" to run alchemy. Now we are forced to run alchemy and inventions! If not both, then we are forced to run inventions! While also being forced to run protection in some fashion! Waow!

 

Many builds are already running skills that apply the protection. Now they have cleansing options without having to use bad RNG functioning utilities purely for the purpose cleansing and can use better skills that are simply positively augmented by traits.

 

If you are having so much difficulty that you feel both trait lines are required, I think that may be a learn to play issue on your part. For me, I am finding one line or another, individually, to be sufficient.

 

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> Many builds are already running skills that apply the protection. Now they have cleansing options without having to use bad RNG functioning utilities purely for the purpose cleansing and can use better skills that are simply positively augmented by traits.

>

> If you are having so much difficulty that you feel both trait lines are required, I think that may be a learn to play issue on your part. For me, I am finding one line or another, individually, to be sufficient.

>

 

You do realize that the anti-corrosion plating trait is some really wonky design though, right? If you aren't running Med Gyro or Hard Light Arena, the benefits are extremely limited. Core engineer doesn't provide much in the way of protection -- the closest you're going to get is traited thumper turret with a 10s interval or P/S engi (LOL!) with over shield.

 

In other words, it's ok for scrapper and holo (because they can pulse protection with specific skills), but it's very underwhelming for core engi, whom alchemical tinctures benefited the most.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> You do realize that the anti-corrosion plating trait is some really wonky design though, right? If you aren't running Med Gyro or Hard Light Arena, the benefits are extremely limited. Core engineer doesn't provide much in the way of protection -- the closest you're going to get is traited thumper turret with a 10s interval or P/S engi (LOL!) with over shield.

 

Wonky? like the elixirs having RNG effects wonky" or like, your subjective opinion wonky? I mean core engineer alone has 7 different sourced for applying protection if that is the trait that concerns you. Not counting the fact that some runes offer two different protection procs. The proc off the shield skills alone is more then you received of the previously existing traits outside of elixirs, only before you were pigeonholed into elixirs alone for it.

 

> In other words, it's ok for scrapper and holo (because they can pulse protection with specific skills), but it's very underwhelming for core engi, whom alchemical tinctures benefited the most.

 

It is actually really good for Holo and Scrapper and maintains similar levels of condition cleanse for core engineer only spread it out to skills outside of elixirs such as with the shield, healing skills (healing turret itself is still great for 3 conditions. Elixir C, elixir H & toss elixir H (both of those have the caveat of it being completely RNG and the innate problem of elixirs)...........So do I disagree that it is underwhelming for core engineers, no, I agree. I am simply disagreeing with this "whoa is me, the world is ending for all engineers" sentiment is not reasonable.

 

 

[Shadowcat.2680]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > You do realize that the anti-corrosion plating trait is some really wonky design though, right? If you aren't running Med Gyro or Hard Light Arena, the benefits are extremely limited. Core engineer doesn't provide much in the way of protection -- the closest you're going to get is traited thumper turret with a 10s interval or P/S engi (LOL!) with over shield.

>

> Wonky? like the elixirs having RNG effects wonky" or like, your subjective opinion wonky? I mean core engineer alone has 7 different sourced for applying protection if that is the trait that concerns you. Not counting the fact that some runes offer two different protection procs. The proc off the shield skills alone is more then you received of the previously existing traits outside of elixirs, only before you were pigeonholed into elixirs alone for it.

>

> > In other words, it's ok for scrapper and holo (because they can pulse protection with specific skills), but it's very underwhelming for core engi, whom alchemical tinctures benefited the most.

>

> It is actually really good for Holo and Scrapper and maintains similar levels of condition cleanse for core engineer only spread it out to skills outside of elixirs such as with the shield, healing skills (healing turret itself is still great for 3 conditions. Elixir C, elixir H & toss elixir H (both of those have the caveat of it being completely RNG and the innate problem of elixirs)...........So do I disagree that it is underwhelming for core engineers, no, I agree. I am simply disagreeing with this "whoa is me, the world is ending for all engineers" sentiment is not reasonable.

>

>

 

Please list the seven sources you claim core engi has for applying protection.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protection

 

There's not seven sources for protection for core engi as you cannot count elixir H with its random chance to give protection. And converting vulnerability through elixir C hardly counts either as it relies on the engi having vulnerability in the first place.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

 

> Please list the seven sources you claim core engi has for applying protection.

 

1 Thumper turret

2 Magnetic shield with the Over Shield trait

3 static shield with the Over Shield trait

4 Reconstruction Enclosure

5 protection injection

6 Elixir H (I can count it because it is a provable fact that it gives protection)

7 Toss Elixir H (I can count it because it is a provable fact that it gives protection)

 

As well as 3 separate runes that proc-ed protection from two different levels of the rune which actually makes it 9 options for protection, which is one each for two different runes and two each for three others. Making the actual capable numbers 8 or 9 sources of protection respectively. So you were correct, there are not only 7 available sources, there are actually 9 if we were trying to maximize protection availability option. Just make certain you do not confuse maximize with optimize.

 

Then we have 2 AoE cleanses from healing turret as an option.

As well as lesser elixir C cleansing 2 or 3 depending on game mode.

Toss Elixir R

Med pack drop clearing 14 full conditions.

 

Everyone one of the above capable of not just cleansing conditions, but completely capable of converting them to boons if so desired, with anticorrosion plating.

 

Your complaint about regular and toss elixir H is part of my point of why I generally felt elixirs were bad and them being the main source of condition cleanse.

 

> There's not seven sources for protection for core engi as you cannot count elixir H with its random chance to give protection. And converting vulnerability through elixir C hardly counts either as it relies on the engi having vulnerability in the first place.

 

So yes, there is quit provably and objectively 7 sources of protection alone on core engineer. As well there are multiple skills that are designed for and directly cleanse multiple conditions with the option to be traited to convert them to boons.

 

I admit I enjoy that you attempted to force arbitrary rules and caveats as an effort to make your disingenuous claim true, but a fact that something applies something is a fact that it applies something. Your level of appreciation for its reliability is irrelevant, though it assist in making my point that such valuable benefits such as condition cleansing needed to be removed from the shoulders of elixirs because the RnG aspect made elixirs a horrible functionality.

 

 

[Shadowcat.2680]

Either version of elixir H cannot be counted as a reliable means for applying protection. It's pure RNG. Using elixir H might clear a condi now or it might not. Shield trait has no value if the shield is not already the goto weapon for the spec. Thumper turret is pretty subpar with its one application of protection every ten seconds if traited (and the reflect dome seems to have a delay for whatever reason).

 

The devs seem to have based Anticorrosion Plating on the ele water trait Cleansing Water. The traits have the same function with protection replacing regen. But eles have multiple ways of applying regen through both weapon skills and traits. Engi has to take subpar traits/skills to try and apply enough protection as it's present on zero of the weapons and kits natively.

 

Engis are required to take the Inventions trait line now, just as Alchemy was once required. Alchemy no longer has value as a condi clear support trait line as all of its major traits dealing with condis affect what happens when a condi is cleared but clear zero condis themselves.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> Either version of elixir H cannot be counted as a reliable means for applying protection. It's pure RNG. Using elixir H might clear a condi now or it might not. Shield trait has no value if the shield is not already the goto weapon for the spec. Thumper turret is pretty subpar with its one application of protection every ten seconds if traited (and the reflect dome seems to have a delay for whatever reason).

 

You have to add very many additional rules and caveats in order to disingenuously try to disprove what I have already proven as fact. I will take that as a testament to the validity of my point, thank you.

 

> The devs seem to have based Anticorrosion Plating on the ele water trait Cleansing Water. The traits have the same function with protection replacing regen. But eles have multiple ways of applying regen through both weapon skills and traits. Engi has to take subpar traits/skills to try and apply enough protection as it's present on zero of the weapons and kits natively.

 

I do not see hoe Elementalist is relevant here. As well I do not see the confusing of your subjective opinion with that of objective fact as relevant. Your personal opinion of the trait or skills functionality is neither important nor relevant. If you think they are subpar, do not use them, many felt tying condition cleanse to the RnG skills of elixirs in their previous iterations was even more subpar that the traits and skills you attack. I am unclear why you keep reposting new additions and unreasonable rules to win a debate you have already been proven incorrect on.

 

> Engis are required to take the Inventions trait line now, just as Alchemy was once required.

 

I do not believe "required" means what you appear to believe it means. Perhaps the profession is not for you, and you should try the Elementalist you appear so fond of. I mean you clearly offer no reasonable alternative nor do you appear interested in a discussion on possible changes for future updates.

 

>Alchemy no longer has value as a condi clear support trait line as all of its major traits dealing with condis affect what happens when a condi is cleared but clear zero condis themselves.

 

That seems unreasonable to claim. Purity of Purpose allowing all skills/traits cleansing a condition converting them to boon and lesser elixir C converting 3 conditions to boons, as well as protection injections synergy with anticorrosion plating or iron blooded offering a flat 2% per boon negating reduction in condition damage seems of massive value to support against conditions. If you find no intrinsic value there, it seems the profession simply may not bee for you. As for me, I am enjoying the new grand value these traits ass to my Scrapper and Holosmith play.

 

[Nilix.2170]

I rarely play Core, but if the core profession is suffering, it's bad. That's my philosophy. I LIKE my I/A/Holo build but to sit here and discard the frustration of how this change affects core engineer play is, in itself, disingenuous. PvE is one thing but Condis are hard and constant in competitive. Transmute's boons would be converted back into conditions just as quickly as it triggered. For Elite Specs, the answer is pulsing protection. What does Core have as an answer? Pistol/Shield Core? Thumper Turret? No, I will not sit here and consider Elixir H as a cleansing method.

 

Alchemy as a trait line has been trashed but Inventions has been improved to a point where it CARRIES Alchemy on its back. Purity of Purpose has very limited use outside of running ACP in Inventions and would not warrant use without it. 37+ (0.02*HealPow) is not going to cut it for Core. All of these changes could have been done without removing Elixir cleanses. Or sure, maybe it couldn't, but if they really wanted to shift "cleansing" into Inventions, how about throwing Resistance into Alchemy instead? Resistance on Elixir use, Pulsing 1s resistance every X seconds you're in a kit with Backpack Regenerator as well as the heal it already has. That would sync with Iron Blooded. Gain resistance when you have 4+ boons. Something. As it stands, Alchemy has little reason to be used without Inventions. It's just not fun to work with. Especially at the Core level.

 

Purity of Purpose's lack of synergy with its own traitline is something you don't see in any other current Grandmaster trait and it's jarring to see. Not like the trait before it was any better

[Shadowcat.2680]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

 

> I do not see hoe Elementalist is relevant here. As well I do not see the confusing of your subjective opinion with that of objective fact as relevant. Your personal opinion of the trait or skills functionality is neither important nor relevant. If you think they are subpar, do not use them, many felt tying condition cleanse to the RnG skills of elixirs in their previous iterations was even more subpar that the traits and skills you attack. I am unclear why you keep reposting new additions and unreasonable rules to win a debate you have already been proven incorrect on.

>

Eles have a trait to clear a condi upon granting a specific boon. Engis now have a trait to clear a condi upon granting a specific boon. Eles have much easier access to their boon than engis do to theirs. All scrappers now have to use the medic gyro. All holosmiths now have to use hard light arena. Forcing each respective elite spec into using a specific skill does not remotely promote build diversity. And core engi is just screwed when it comes to granting enough protection to survive the condi output of a condi build.

>

> I do not believe "required" means what you appear to believe it means. Perhaps the profession is not for you, and you should try the Elementalist you appear so fond of. I mean you clearly offer no reasonable alternative nor do you appear interested in a discussion on possible changes for future updates.

>

From the Mirriam-Webster dictionary, required: "to demand as necessary or essential : have a compelling need for." Inventions is now required for all engi builds.

>

> That seems unreasonable to claim. Purity of Purpose allowing all skills/traits cleansing a condition converting them to boon and lesser elixir C converting 3 conditions to boons, as well as protection injections synergy with anticorrosion plating or iron blooded offering a flat 2% per boon negating reduction in condition damage seems of massive value to support against conditions. If you find no intrinsic value there, it seems the profession simply may not bee for you. As for me, I am enjoying the new grand value these traits kitten to my Scrapper and Holosmith play.

>

Purity of Purpose clears zero condis. Iron Blooded clears zero condis. Comeback Cure clears zero condis. Lesser Elixir C only converts two condis (in PVP and WvW) every sixty seconds assuming elixirs aren't traited, forty-eight seconds if they are. Alchemy is not a condi clear trait line with only one minor trait that actually does anything to remove a single condi from the engi. Alchemy without Inventions has very limited value for condi removal/survival.

 

[Aetatis.5418]

> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > @"coglin.1496" said:

>

> > I do not see hoe Elementalist is relevant here. As well I do not see the confusing of your subjective opinion with that of objective fact as relevant. Your personal opinion of the trait or skills functionality is neither important nor relevant. If you think they are subpar, do not use them, many felt tying condition cleanse to the RnG skills of elixirs in their previous iterations was even more subpar that the traits and skills you attack. I am unclear why you keep reposting new additions and unreasonable rules to win a debate you have already been proven incorrect on.

> >

> Eles have a trait to clear a condi upon granting a specific boon. Engis now have a trait to clear a condi upon granting a specific boon. Eles have much easier access to their boon than engis do to theirs. All scrappers now have to use the medic gyro. All holosmiths now have to use hard light arena. Forcing each respective elite spec into using a specific skill does not remotely promote build diversity. And core engi is just screwed when it comes to granting enough protection to survive the condi output of a condi build.

> >

> > I do not believe "required" means what you appear to believe it means. Perhaps the profession is not for you, and you should try the Elementalist you appear so fond of. I mean you clearly offer no reasonable alternative nor do you appear interested in a discussion on possible changes for future updates.

> >

> From the Mirriam-Webster dictionary, required: "to demand as necessary or essential : have a compelling need for." Inventions is now required for all engi builds.

> >

> > That seems unreasonable to claim. Purity of Purpose allowing all skills/traits cleansing a condition converting them to boon and lesser elixir C converting 3 conditions to boons, as well as protection injections synergy with anticorrosion plating or iron blooded offering a flat 2% per boon negating reduction in condition damage seems of massive value to support against conditions. If you find no intrinsic value there, it seems the profession simply may not bee for you. As for me, I am enjoying the new grand value these traits kitten to my Scrapper and Holosmith play.

> >

> Purity of Purpose clears zero condis. Iron Blooded clears zero condis. Comeback Cure clears zero condis. Lesser Elixir C only converts two condis (in PVP and WvW) every sixty seconds assuming elixirs aren't traited, forty-eight seconds if they are. Alchemy is not a condi clear trait line with only one minor trait that actually does anything to remove a single condi from the engi. Alchemy without Inventions has very limited value for condi removal/survival.

>

 

eles always have to make descisions in order to cleanse. yes some traits are better distributed between skill-lines (diamond skin in earth and cleansing fire). but if you want to cleanse without relying on proccs and carefully watching your healthbar, you have to use water.

wait what? they are forced to use water? didnt expect that. and if they want to survive a condi bomb, they have to couple it with the earth traitline.

you almost certainly have to use invigorating torrents as a tempest or woven stride as a weaver.

they always lose options such as stability as a tempest; group heal as a tempest (because either aura share or condition remove).

as a weaver they lose a lot of group utility... plus: they either burst someone down, or they invest heavily in cleanses to survive condi bombs.

 

yet one thing you are probably right, there are more opportunities (without changing the build any further) to toss out regeneration on an ele - if you go for it.

which doesnt change the fact, that both professions **have to** couple two traitlines in order to be efficient at cleansing (self and group).

so comparing how bad engi cleanse is vs ele is somewhat invalid? idk

 

question is, how do you implement more protection on a core engi, without making scrapper/holo a cleansing beast - hence super broken (if you go for it).

protection on toss elixir h? a built in cleanse in elixir h?

better synergy between inventions and "x" (carefull, because scrapper and holo can use it too).

 

imo the new cleansing and build options are far more "open" than before the patch.

you can use alchemy for the lesser elixir c, elixir c, toss elixir c and reducing their cooldown. plus xtraitline

you can use inventions for the cleanse on protection. plus xtraitline (dont forget, that the turret cleanses 4 conditions with this traitline too)

you use them in combination.

at the same time the condi pressure from scourge and mesmer got reduced (less fast paced)

(yet, i dont roam and i dont do spvp on my engi. my groups are always 10+.... that might already makes the difference between liking the change and hating it)

 

[patricide.1062]

Hey, guys. Why don't you blast my mobile water field that pulses 2 seconds of protection 5 times in 5 seconds (if you're building for boon duration, which I don't see why you wouldn't now), cleanses 5 conditions while it's pulsing and oh, all of those conditions are now boons. Let me Fumigate and turn 5 more of your conditions into long lasting boons. Let me pop my healing skill which now converts two more conditions into boons... and the list goes on. Scrapper just became MUCH more viable in big and small groups in WvW. I don't know or care about the other game modes, but from a WvW perspective these changes are wonderful. I am now a condi-cleansing, boon spamming machine that can still stand in the front lines and do damage and CC and grant group stealth to stragglers and pop a mobile reflect bubble and a 1,200 range pull and a 2 second block that grants barrier and another 2 second block and a closer that evades and has leap finishers and a massive AOE damage spike (Hammer 2) that also reflects and and and....

 

Scrappers were already versatile, this just added another tool into the kit (get it?) For those of us who can adapt, the age of the Boongineer is dawning (at least as soon as I finish getting that Charged Quartz!)

[dawsm.5398]

I think what seems to be going over some folk's heads is the fact that this change has made core engineer far more difficult for some game modes, and for some subsets in a given game mode. And, that isn't something that is -necessary- when changes are rolled out. Not quite sure why ANet can't institute changes that helps a profession across the board, instead of breaking the profession for some methods of play while improving it for others.

 

Honestly, I found some of the other posters comparisons to elementalist to be spot on; with the exception that engineer is worse off because it doesn't have multiple trait lines to pair with the new Inventions; it has alchemy. And, for core, that is it...that is all...there is nothing else that will work with it. I don't think there was any need for the under-handed nerfs contained in these changes. I'm not quite sure why, but ANet seem to have some profound difficulty managing the more versatile professions like engineer and elementalist.

 

Just one more opinion thrown into the mix, but I play / have played practically every profession in small scale WvW, and it never ceases to amaze me how the professions that do not need nerfs are constantly the ones beat down by them.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

As I am playing currently a Holo in WvW I simply love the Change on the condition cleanse. The Synergy between protection and condition removals allows to defend against both, power and condition based builds at the same time.

 

With the right traits you're a condi-removal-machine while having a high protection uptime (50-80% depending on several factors).

 

Going with HLA (12x protection in 12 seconds) + over shield (2x protection) + Healing turret (3 condi cleanse + protection) and adding some blast finishers in the HLA light field if necessary (assuming ~2-4 more condi removals) + rune of durability it sums up to a nice burst condi removal of potentially 21-23 conditions removed leaving any condition burst class crying in despair. At the same time, it can also be very nicely distributed over time if necessary to Counter constant condition pressure. Summing up the protection uptime gives HLA (17s/45s), shield skills (3s/20s + 3s/24s), Healing turret (3s/20s) = ~80% in an optimal case. In reality it may of course be lower due to overstacking (e.g. healing turret during HLA wastes ~3s of protection).

 

Sure HLA is static and any good Player just moves out of Close range fights when it is up, but it still gives a nice amount of protection and the 12s uptime allows you to jump out of it to deal dps and move back in if necessary. Making HLA moving with the Player would just be overpowered in my opinion.

 

For those with elixir gun, just drop a few explo finishers into the light field!

 

Also in smallscale, all skills above remove conditions AOE!

 

Alchemy trait is still a very nice traitline, it is just not related to condition remove anymore but it offers a LOT of buffs and HGH still makes elixirs ~50% more effective (+20% Duration / -20% CD).

 

I have to admit that while playing engineer since release, I NEVER ever felt that this class is being trashed by anet. We always had good Options, but not all of our Options are good. But hey that is the same with any other class too.

[Llethander.3972]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"JETWING.2759" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"JETWING.2759" said:

> > > > Prior update i hadn't problemas with condições removal, and not even did used elixir or alchemy line...

> > > > Now it's even easy to cleanse.

> > >

> > > In what way did it become easier to cleanse?

> >

> > Heals, Protention, ...

> >

> > I've tested and confirmed. We have a viable engi support build.

>

> Those aren't cleanses.

>

> It makes all the difference to cleanse when you have 8+ stacks of burning on you. Outhealing that is near impossible.

 

Wouldn't that mean that the shield trait - paired with shield - that grants protection to nearby allies when activating a shield ability is the addition of two condition cleanses? I mean, sure, you have to trait heavily in one direction which may not be the most useful... but that's not what you were talking about. You were talking about specifically the nerfing or removal of condition cleansing options.

 

Just throwing that out there.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

 

> The topic of discussion shouldn't be about whether or not Anticorrosion Plating replaces Alchemical Tinctures in effectiveness; the topic of discussion should be related more to opportunity cost. It was relatively painless slotting the elixir gun on your bar. It wasn't the most damaging kit in the game, but it did offer a stun break, a good (unblockable) cleave skill in Acid Bomb, a party-wide condi cleanse in Fumigate, a light field, and access to weakness in Tranquilizer Dart. It was a great multi-purpose kit that served as the bedrock to the engineer for many years, and it still remains useful even despite the loss of Alchemical Tinctures. There are still plenty of reasons to run it.

 

If it still remains useful, and it still has many reasons to run it, why do you use it as your point of reference for opportunity cost? As I see it, all you are doing is demonstrating how OP it was compared to every other stun breaker option we had, which support the notion of changing some of the traits that made it so OP.

[Hannelore.8153]

I've been okay with my cleanses between Medic Gyro and Thumper Turret (pulsing Protection), but I see that some people think that more is needed.

 

Adding pulsing condition cleanse to Elixer Gun and Mortar healing areas seems like the best solution to me, because it would give powerful condi cleanse at the cost of mobility which is something that has worked well for other classes (balance-wise) in the past.

 

It would also synergise well with the regen-on-cleanse trait, making the actual healing part more viable ?

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> As I see it, all you are doing is demonstrating how OP it was compared to every other stun breaker option we had, which support the notion of changing some of the traits that made it so OP.

 

I am not saying that Alchemical Tinctures wasn't a pretty overpowered trait. As I said myself: It probably never should've been added to the game in the first place, but then again neither should've a lot of things that Heart of Thorns brought to the table.

 

You know what else was pretty OP? [ineptitude.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ineptitude "Ineptitude.") Want another example? [Deathly Chill](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Chill "Deathly Chill"). Condition damage in general went careening out of control in Heart of Thorns, and Alchemical Tincture was left alone for over two years for precisely that reason. It was definitely overpowered that the elixir gun cleared like 4 condis every 30 seconds between Super Elixir, Acid Bomb, and Healing Mist; but there were plenty of overpowered things in Heart of Thorns that are actually still in place.

 

There are also plenty of overpowered things in Path of Fire that make the overpowered elements of Heart of Thorns look like core traits by comparison. The key problem here isn't that you're saying Alchemical Tinctures overpowered. The problem is that you're saying stuff like this:

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> Odd, all of your assumtions and declarations go exactly counter to the entire PvP and WvW community conversations I am having with all the other engineers. As they all unanimously feel this is a vast improvement as well as opening yo build diversity, I will chalk this one up to you failing to see the capabilities and see outside "your build" since you sling that term around the entire posts. I guess I am just glad I. Nor running "your build" then, because these changes have been spectacular for several of my builds.

 

You are championing these changes as some kind of buff. It's not a buff. It's a direct nerf to the Alchemy trait line. The thumper turret does not replace the elixir gun in any capacity, and there is not more build diversity. Taking a minor trait and dispersing its effectiveness across two major traits is the very opposite of opening up build diversity.

 

People may be "fine" with these changes, but what happened on Tuesday to Alchemy and Inventions is absolutely not a buff.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

> You are championing these changes as some kind of buff. It's not a buff. It's a direct nerf to the Alchemy trait line. The thumper turret does not replace the elixir gun in any capacity, and there is not more build diversity. Taking a minor trait and dispersing its effectiveness across two major traits is the very opposite of opening up build diversity.

 

Who said thumper turret replaced EG? As for build diversity, it seems the rest of the community, in PvE, PvP, and WvW disagree with you.

 

> People may be "fine" with these changes, but what happened on Tuesday to Alchemy and Inventions is absolutely not a buff.

 

Yes, it is, and objectively so. Both Scrapper and Holosmith have objectively better options for condition cleansing and condition conversion to boons. Dealing with condition damage was unanimously discussed as the main weakness of core engineer, Scrapper, and Holosmith. The changes had a net neutral on the core engineer outside of elixir focused builds. The changes had a clear and concise improvement on condition cleanse and conversion options for Scrapper and Holosmith both.

 

You can claim it is not a buff all you like. For you, your play style, and the builds you run, it may not be, but for me, my play style, and the builds I run, it is objectively a very solid buff.

 

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> > @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

> > You are championing these changes as some kind of buff. It's not a buff. It's a direct nerf to the Alchemy trait line. The thumper turret does not replace the elixir gun in any capacity, and there is not more build diversity. Taking a minor trait and dispersing its effectiveness across two major traits is the very opposite of opening up build diversity.

>

> Who said thumper turret replaced EG? As for build diversity, it seems the rest of the community, in PvE, PvP, and WvW disagree with you.

 

Who are these mysterious people you keep referring to? You keep saying that everyone agrees with you, but I have no idea who you're talking about.

 

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> > @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

> > People may be "fine" with these changes, but what happened on Tuesday to Alchemy and Inventions is absolutely not a buff.

>

> Yes, it is, and objectively so. Both Scrapper and Holosmith have objectively better options for condition cleansing and condition conversion to boons. Dealing with condition damage was unanimously discussed as the main weakness of core engineer, Scrapper, and Holosmith. The changes had a net neutral on the core engineer outside of elixir focused builds. The changes had a clear and concise improvement on condition cleanse and conversion options for Scrapper and Holosmith both.

>

> You can claim it is not a buff all you like. For you, your play style, and the builds you run, it may not be, but for me, my play style, and the builds I run, it is objectively a very solid buff.

 

No, it was not an "objective" buff. You don't seem to understand what "objective" means. It was a direct nerf to core engineer's potential to cleanse condis. This was most obvious in the complete obliteration of the "Drunk Engineer" build which relied on mostly core skills (elixirs) synergizing with scrapper.

 

The only reason scrapper and holosmith got improved cleanse is because they have two specific skills that allow them to pulse protection (reconstruction field and hard light arena), thus making anticorrosion plating useful as a cleanse. If you aren't running either of those two skills, your condi cleanse definitely got worse. The change also forces any core engi players to have to sacrifice a utility slot (or their DPS) to get the same level of condi cleanse that was once built-in.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> Who are these mysterious people you keep referring to? You keep saying that everyone agrees with you, but I have no idea who you're talking about.

 

No, I am fairly sure I simply said that they disagree with his perspective, not that they agree with mine.

 

> No, it was not an "objective" buff. You don't seem to understand what "objective" means. It was a direct nerf to core engineer's potential to cleanse condis. This was most obvious in the complete obliteration of the "Drunk Engineer" build which relied on mostly core skills (elixirs) synergizing with scrapper.

 

Core Engineer receiving a "slight" nerf does not change that Scrapper and Holosmith received solid buffs. As well, I have seen no evidence that the so-called "drunk engineer" was a particularly popular build.

 

> The only reason scrapper and holosmith got improved cleanse is because they have two specific skills that allow them to pulse protection (reconstruction field and hard light arena), thus making anticorrosion plating useful as a cleanse. If you aren't running either of those two skills, your condi cleanse definitely got worse. The change also forces any core engi players to have to sacrifice a utility slot (or their DPS) to get the same level of condi cleanse that was once built-in.

 

Who cares why they got improved? We all know why. But I am glad you agree with me that they both received significant improvements. It makes your declaration that the profession was objectively nerfed seem a little counter-intuitive to a lot of your post.

 

You are wrong on a few points. It is not simply that those skills pulse protection and cleanse conditions when they do. it is that those skills pulse protection in an AoE and can be traited to convert conditions to boons in an AoE. Not only improving the condition removal amounts overall, but converting them to boons and doing so in a manner that brings team and group support.

 

It also improves healing turret by offering the option to not just cleanse conditions, but to convert them to boons.

 

It also improves medic gyro by offering the option to not just cleanse conditions, but to convert them to boons.

 

It also improves both shield skills by offering the option to not just cleanse conditions, but to convert them to boons.

 

It also improves Reconstruction Enclosure by offering the option to not just cleanse a condition with any and all heal skills, but to convert them to boons.

 

It also improves Protection Injection offering the option to not just cleanse conditions, but to convert them to boons.

 

It also improves Cleansing Synergy by offering the option to not just cleanse a condition with any and all heal skills, but to convert them to boons.

 

It also improves thumper turret by offering the option to not just cleanse a condition, but to convert them to boons.

 

Like it or not, converting conditions to boons is a buff. Adding protection in an AoE is a buff. Cleansing boons in an AoE is a buff. Converting boons in an AoE is a buff. Many many skills we already had cleansing conditions now can be traited to convert them to a boon, and that is a buff.

 

You can complain about an overall loss of total condition cleans are the core engineer all you like, it will not change the fact that the skills that do can all, each and every one convert them to boons. Some can now do so in an AoE. EG also converts many conditions into boons in an AoE with Fumigate with the same trait. Complain all you like, group support and overall value was increased. Not just by more group support cleansing but by the ability to offer group boon buffing.

 

The AoE cleansing and AoE buffing of others with protection and other boons is an objective buff.

 

 

 

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> Yes, it is, and objectively so. Both Scrapper and Holosmith have objectively better options for condition cleansing and condition conversion to boons. Dealing with condition damage was unanimously discussed as the main weakness of core engineer, Scrapper, and Holosmith.

 

I'm sorry, but under no circumstances will you ever convince me that having to give up traits like Bunker Down and Mecha Legs just to gain access to relatively the same amount condition cleanse I had before is any kind of buff. You also under no circumstances will ever convince me that traits like Purity of Purpose are even a good idea.

 

Unlike what you wrote in your post, the engineer never had a weakness "dealing with" condition damage. We have some of the strongest condition removal skills in the game. The engineer's main weakness is relying too much on boons to carry our damage/sustain and having those boons converted into conditions by necromancers.

 

There's a big difference, there. And that difference is why Purity of Purpose is a terrible idea. That difference is also why I'm not thrilled to see applying protection on ourselves be the new solution to condition clears.

 

I would much rather have what we had before, even if it meant having less overall condition cleanses. Too many boons are incredibly dangerous in PvP. They can be corrupted, stripped, and even stolen. And having us rely on _even more boons_ just bothers me beyond belief.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> With the removal of alchemical tinctures and inversion enzyme, plus the subtle nerf of transmute, condi removal for engineers is at an all time low. I suspect that Elixir Gun and/or Elixir C may be an absolute requirement on any PvP build now. Was this an attempt to make cauterize absolutely essential?

>

> Places where they improved condi removal? Advanced Turrets is now anti-corrosion plating, which means you grant cleanse only when granting protection. LOL. Brilliant.

 

hey man, when i get home i'll link you a build. it's shits on condis and shines in supportive group play.