Confusion nerf in PvE was intended

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

>

> To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

 

RIP condi mirage, so long axe.

 

Thanks for clearing our confusion.

[Karl McLain.5604]

Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

>

> I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

 

While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

[EnchantixAqua.5327]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

Why can’t the changes be made now for Mirage’s Axe out of curiosity? I think a lot of Mirages would feel better if Torment was added now rather than later?

[mereghost.7910]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

The whole reasoning is perfect from a Competitive mode PoV and I do agree with it, but pushing such change that can affect a whole spec without sweeping changes to it's traits/weapon/skills can be a bit frustrating for the players.

 

Meanwhile what do all mirages do? Couldn't the change be reverted until then? I mean, it appears to me that the changes to confusion back in August were made to support the mirage spec (since most of it's traits and skills generate stacks of confusion).

 

PS: Just crossposting before @"Karl McLain.5604" vanishes. ;)

[Sodeni.6041]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

If you want confusion to be a viable (bursty) option in PvE you have to make all mobs attack way more often and block/evade less. Wasn't the whole reason you changed it to a damage-over-time condition because PvE mobs attack so rarely which made confusion really bad compared to any other damaging condition?

 

Making confusion basically bad and the worst consistant/reliant condition in PvE and changing axe conditions to torment reduces a lot of the mesmer's flavour and harms it's identity in my opinion. Confusion just fits the mesmer the most out of all conditions.

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

My current build as a condi mirage already shows strong on torment and bleeding (dueling, chaos, mirage). Are you referring to a change in Imaginary Axes; because that's where the "confusion" is?

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

> >

> > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

>

> While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the only build that actualy reached the previous benchmark was a staff build relying on the 2nd bounce of the staff auto. That is an extremely non-realistic condition that has 100% chance of not occurring in any benchmark situation.

[squallaus.8321]

not to mention the axe is way more fun to play than camp staff....

@"Karl McLain.5604"

If this is really the direction anet intend to go with Axe, can we just swap out the confusion for torment on the axe ambush NOW rather than make us wait several months? Like just change the confusion stacks to torment then adjust/balance the numbers in future balance patches. Right now axe is unplayable in PVE because the ambush ability does close to no damage. At the moment its just not viable to go into fractals/raids with Axe builds which a lot of players enjoyed including myself.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

> > >

> > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

> >

> > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

>

> Unless I'm mistaken, the only build that actualy reached the previous benchmark was a staff build relying on the 2nd bounce of the staff auto. That is an extremely non-realistic condition that has 100% chance of not occurring in any benchmark situation.

 

No benchmark ever created for raiders was realistic. Mirage is not dead. Adapt or switch to new power chrono.

[DaVid Darksoul.4985]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

This seems to have not gone over well with Mesmer's, but what we are seeing in WvW does not validate their ire. With all the condi cleansing and conversion, heavier damage at shorter duration equals heavier damage while same damage at longer duration usually does not equate to more damage. The bursts we are getting on the receiving end of confusion from mesmers is overwhelming. I am amazed that Anet did not see this would happen, unless they did and didn't care.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

> > > >

> > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

> > >

> > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

> >

> > Unless I'm mistaken, the only build that actualy reached the previous benchmark was a staff build relying on the 2nd bounce of the staff auto. That is an extremely non-realistic condition that has 100% chance of not occurring in any benchmark situation.

>

> No benchmark ever created for raiders was realistic. Mirage is not dead. Adapt or switch to new power chrono.

 

Need to read with context. When he said unrealistic it means you fight with 9 others in actual raid rather than just 1 more standing next to boss. Winds of Chaos **will** bounce to other allies so it is far away from practice golem as you could possibly get.

 

Anyways can we discuss how confusion change affects mirage more? Last I check staff is not a confusion weapon and just discarding elite spec weapon for "adapting" is not the reason why Karl is talking to us.

 

Like what's on the scratch board for torment addition? Skill 3? Increase spinning axe damage or change seeking axe?

[Hackuuna.4085]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

Unless confusion is made burstier in PvE via a huge increase in the damage on skill use component and a decrease on the duration component it's just going to end up being a condition that happens to be part of a rotation with no real planning for burst (assuming confusion is removed mostly from axe). It's also very troublesome for the condition that it has negligible effectiveness when a monster is CC'd or had it's defiance bar broken.

 

I'd suggest that if this is the route the design team is going down then confusion on skill activation in PvE needs to hit a lot harder and every tick after the defiance bar is broken while the monster is CC'd should tick the skill activation amount. Reducing the duration of confusion so as not to be too long of a burst may be a good way to balance if that's the intention.

[squallaus.8321]

If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

 

And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

[Sodeni.6041]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

> > >

> > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

> >

> > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

>

> Unless I'm mistaken, the only build that actualy reached the previous benchmark was a staff build relying on the 2nd bounce of the staff auto. That is an extremely non-realistic condition that has 100% chance of not occurring in any benchmark situation.

 

Staff clones still apply vulnerbility instead of torment which harms the damage even further!

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

>

> And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

 

That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

> >

> > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

>

> That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable.

 

Mirage is still viable.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

>

> And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

 

It was strong certainly NOT because of axe ambush. Who the hell get hit by axe ambush in pvp? you? why don't you go learn how to dodge rather than telling oithers what they should adapt to? Ironically, power mirage shatter was arguable stronger in pvp, now its ever stronger with mind wrack's ammo mechanic but no one blinks an eye lid.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

> > >

> > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

> >

> > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable.

>

> Mirage is still viable.

 

in PVP only.

 

[Bofouci.1320]

So I keep being told... I'm not seeing those DPS numbers anymore, personally. Down up to 10k in almost every encounter. I think the devs agree (With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.)

I'm just not sure how they intend on moving the axe toward torment. Tool tips in game show axe 1 Lacerating Chop skill bleeding 3-1/s 427 damage; Ethereal Chop Torment 3-1/2s 427 damage, 636 if moving; Mirror Strikes Bleeding 10-1/4s 1,280 damage/ Torment 10-1/4s 1,280 damage, 1,908 if moving. Imaginary Axes is where the confusion is and was where a healthy portion of our dps originated. Will this too be more torment; and how do they plan to make this work in PVP/WVW since skills aren't being segragated?

[Xyonon.3987]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

 

You mean the staff build with the double-damaeg-bugged Vortex? mhm ...

 

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> Unless I'm mistaken, the only build that actualy reached the previous benchmark was a staff build relying on the 2nd bounce of the staff auto. That is an extremely non-realistic condition that has 100% chance of not occurring in any benchmark situation.

 

The 2nd bounce is safely achievable by simply standing inside the hitbox and not standing in other players. For small hitboxes I'd call it not viable. However the build is based on a current bug with the Vortex, allowing it to hit twice for double damage, so yea ... :P

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Xyonon.3987" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

>

> You mean the staff build with the double-damaeg-bugged Vortex? mhm ...

>

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > Unless I'm mistaken, the only build that actualy reached the previous benchmark was a staff build relying on the 2nd bounce of the staff auto. That is an extremely non-realistic condition that has 100% chance of not occurring in any benchmark situation.

>

> The 2nd bounce is safely achievable by simply standing inside the hitbox and not standing in other players. For small hitboxes I'd call it not viable. However the build is based on a current bug with the Vortex, allowing it to hit twice for double damage, so yea ... :P

 

Yup! Just like imaginary axes this too will be fixed in the near future.

[Roda.7468]

Isn't the point of having burst being able to control when the damage spikes happen? Like saving up cooldowns to burst down an add that's charging up a huge kill-move? Or waiting until a mob is broken and invulnerable to dish out a bunch of damage? What's the point if you have to wait for the mob to do something (something that most people would prefer to control or prevent) to trigger the burst? (Mind you, one that you have to keep applying or else the burst won't happen) Imo, this burst-as-punishment just does not work on AI enemies and needs its functionality to be completely split between mobs and people.